I always enjoy talking with Taylor Lorenz, a deep thinker about the internet who infuriates certain pockets of tech Twitter.
Last week, she published a look at the crypto social media accounts that broke news on the fall of FTX. She wrote about how accounts like Coffeezilla and AutismCapital have become media figures in their own right.
She wrote for the Washington Post:
All this coverage of the FTX implosion is the most prominent example of how “citizen journalism” is battling legacy publishers for online attention, catapulting a fresh class of independent journalists into the mainstream while also giving rise to a group of social media influencers who optimize for attention rather than accuracy.
For years, drama channels and tea accounts — so called because the word “tea” is slang for juicy information — have been first to break news related to pop culture and influencers. Business news is late to undergo this trend.
So in classic fashion, I broke one of my only New Year’s resolutions — to pay less attention to “the media” — and invited Lorenz on the Dead Cat podcast to talk about how these accounts are changing how information reaches the public.
In my mind, our conversation was really about reputations — and how they’re built and maintained online. Later in the episode, we talk about how Twitter and rightwing media has shaped Lorenz’s own reputation online. Some of her critics might be surprised to hear her speak out against Instagram’s harsh content moderation policies.
At the 27:30 mark, we shift gears and talk about the downturn in the creator economy.
At 40:10, Lorenz and I debate whether we should be worried about Chinese influence over TikTok.
Give it a listen
Read the automated transcript
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00:00:05
Welcome. So what kind of salad welcome
00:00:13
everybody to dead cat? Very exciting episode I sort of
00:00:18
sward off and you know 2023 talking too much about media and
00:00:23
I worry that I'm about to directly contradict that but a
00:00:26
guest I can never turn away and happy to have on this.
00:00:30
Joe Taylor Lorenz, thanks for coming on dead cat.
00:00:32
Nice to have you. Thanks for having me and a very
00:00:36
well timed story like right in our wheelhouse here.
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You know you wrote about FTX and sort of all the little I don't
00:00:44
know you have right have better language for them but like the
00:00:46
Twitter characters who have been sort of doing reporting and
00:00:51
super interesting like topic so I can you just like give a
00:00:56
little background first on what your synopsis of the Like
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Twitter scoop machine /. T accounts is, yeah, so I mean,
00:01:05
I wrote this story. It just went up, but I actually
00:01:08
initially wrote it back when FTX story broke.
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And I don't know if you remember how crazy the internet was, like
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that whole week but all of these accounts on Twitter and some sub
00:01:19
Sakura's, and YouTubers were kind of like all hands on deck.
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Posting 24/7 about FTX this stuff like autism Capital,
00:01:26
right? Y'all like really weird name.
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Mario nozzle the Twitter. His face, right?
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They have these huge Twitter spaces at the top characters,
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like come on. I mean, it's pretty amazing.
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Yeah. And so I mean, what I noticed is
00:01:38
that and I feel like, I write this every news event, it's the
00:01:40
same story, but it reminded me a little bit of like, the Johnny
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Depp Amber Heard stuff. We're like, it's this breaking
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news, kind of event where everyone uses it as an
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opportunity to capture an audience.
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And I think one thing that these influencers for lack of a better
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word did better than the mainstream media is really tell
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the story, like Captivate people with the story and And these
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kind of 24/7 updates gossip things like that.
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And so yeah, I just wrote about how they kind of, I use the word
00:02:06
outshine, there's no word for like out attention.
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But basically like, you know, they're like stealing eyeballs
00:02:12
away from the mainstream media with this type of coverage.
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Like you said, I compare it a lot to drama channels and T
00:02:17
accounts which was also a 50. You got to tweak them a little
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bit because there's sort of a condescension, you know, of like
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oh we don't see ourselves that way.
00:02:26
But because I know, right, Smart parallel, it's like TMZ does
00:02:32
great reporting. And then there are these sort of
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Gossip style accounts that do it on sort of Pop Culture stuff
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like that, call themselves t-accounts and then you can sort
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of extend that metaphor. Exactly as you do in the story
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to two business report it. And that's what we sort of saw
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was some of these crypto accounts.
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I love somebody tweeted that the FTX thing is like the James
00:02:53
Charles, versatility, drama geddon, but Borg, but for
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business people, Yeah. And so that's kind of what I
00:03:00
noticed. Of course everyone is funny
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because the story came out then everyone's like you forgot, you
00:03:03
know, XYZ influencer and there were so many.
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I took a handful of the ones that I noticed, right?
00:03:10
When it was all happening. But you know, there's a lot and
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there are people doing really great work to.
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It's not to say that everyone using the internet to break
00:03:16
news. Is, I mean not doing stuff.
00:03:18
Like, Steven from coffee, Zilla has done great reporting, that
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guide make burgers Berg not his real name, but the Dirty Bubble
00:03:25
media, you know, he's exposed real fraud.
00:03:27
So in the autism capital, I mean, I see that a lot.
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It has gotten some stuff right? Right some stuff wrong
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sometimes. Yeah, I would say that.
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So I would say we're like Mike burgers, burgers, whatever, and
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coffees Villa or like the New York Times and Washington Post,
00:03:41
you know, autism capital is like the Daily Mail, you know, it's
00:03:44
like 20% of the stuff is wrong. You kind of want to click on it.
00:03:48
Anyway, sometimes they do get something first, but I think
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people know that, I mean, I give people much more credit I hate
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when the media is like oh you know so dangerous.
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It's like look, we love Gossip. I think it's fine to consume
00:04:00
unverified gossip as long as you're taking it as that, you
00:04:03
know, it's hard for me not to read this as sort of a
00:04:06
narcissist where it's like, where do I fit in, right?
00:04:09
I'm all, I'm a sub stacker. But clearly I have I'm all of,
00:04:13
you know, old media. I literally came up newspaper
00:04:16
internships, you know, clearly sort of inculcated in the cult
00:04:21
of Old Guard media. But my real question is, do you
00:04:24
think this media versus like these accounts Is T accounts or
00:04:29
whatever we're calling them will last.
00:04:31
Right? Because right now, I still think
00:04:33
in sort of the newspaper construction of the world,
00:04:37
there's like some sort of tabloid you see in the grocery
00:04:40
store is still seen as sort of like the media world where these
00:04:43
like, Twitter accounts are seen as like something else.
00:04:47
I don't know. How do you draw the lines?
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And like, you ever just I just want to relinquish sometimes the
00:04:52
reporter Banner because you're just setting up expectations
00:04:55
that all these little accounts don't have to have.
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So anytime Time they succeed. People are like pleasantly
00:05:01
surprised. Well I think that's a thing.
00:05:02
People are pleasantly surprised. I wouldn't say that.
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All of them are going to be seen as reputable.
00:05:07
Like I mean, you have to develop a reputation to be reputable.
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I think most people recognize like these accounts as
00:05:13
inherently non reputable but they're still enticing to
00:05:16
follow. I mean, yes, I think this is
00:05:20
this going to be around. I mean this is the whole way
00:05:22
that media has been moving for 20 years.
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It's right. I think what it's only hitting
00:05:26
business and I think it hit this businesslike.
00:05:28
I mean, we've seen all of these shows happen in women's culture,
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like, I say, women's culture but like, you know, Beauty fashion
00:05:35
entertainment. And I think with the business
00:05:37
world, it's been this morning showing direct started sort of
00:05:40
with some of these celebrities, you know, goop or whatever
00:05:43
community. And then, it became a big issue
00:05:45
in Silicon Valley. Exactly.
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That's the thing. They're the last people to it.
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I can't once again, Silicon Valley is the last person to
00:05:52
discover something and yet they take it as if there is, you
00:05:55
know, they're talking citizen journalism, the usage of the
00:05:57
term citizens. Journalism peaked in 2004.
00:06:00
Like I mean I started as a vlogger like people used to call
00:06:03
US citizen journalist. Very funny.
00:06:05
But this is why you're not supposed to come on the show.
00:06:08
It's like oh she's antagonist. If he sees or you know anybody
00:06:11
no not at all. I mean, I mean, some PCS
00:06:13
obviously made a lot of money, you know, recognizing this
00:06:16
early. Like all the ones that invested
00:06:18
in all those companies I just mean the ones and actually VC is
00:06:21
not really adapt way to describe them because it's like Elon it's
00:06:26
the coinbase sky apology. It's the people who want it to
00:06:29
be cultural Warriors about this. Yeah.
00:06:31
And it's just like, we've had the cultural war and like
00:06:34
they've already won guys, like, you know, don't worry, but I
00:06:38
will say, like, what I think is interesting or the reason that
00:06:40
it's affecting sort of entering, I think this corner of the
00:06:43
finance world is like there is a hostility towards Legacy systems
00:06:47
in crypto and also cryptos just like the most online thing ever,
00:06:50
you know, everything's public. So it's easy to dig through
00:06:52
receipts and stuff like that. And no one is more online.
00:06:56
I think than the crypto people like, they're like, Ogden to
00:06:59
Twitter with their brains. So I think all of this was like
00:07:02
a perfect storm. I mean the big scoop on FTX came
00:07:07
from coin desk and that's like that isn't media sensibility.
00:07:11
I mean there's some debate about whether like the media gets
00:07:13
credit is like an industry rag because a lot of the people who
00:07:17
want to shit on the media you know are like really just want
00:07:19
to shoot on like the big Outlets.
00:07:21
But anyway that's that's a side debate.
00:07:23
We had to Antonio Garcia Martinez on an earlier episode.
00:07:26
He was sort of like does coin desk out but My point right
00:07:29
here. So we I deep in all these
00:07:33
peoples heads at this point. But you know, I guess for these
00:07:36
Twitter accounts it's still sort of needs to make its way to like
00:07:41
the big authoritative outlets for people to sort of have
00:07:45
confidence in them. Yeah.
00:07:46
Even the people consuming the accounts like their worldviews
00:07:50
must ultimately sort of net out with more reputable so but
00:07:54
again, I think more reputable sources don't have to be than
00:07:58
you are. At times, it will look at
00:07:59
someone like Stephen coffee Zilla.
00:08:01
Like he's been able to get real accountability on these crypto
00:08:03
scams people know. Okay, if he's talking about
00:08:06
something he's authoritative on you know so I think it's just a
00:08:09
reputational thing. And I think that what Legacy
00:08:12
Media companies don't realize and refuse to realize is that
00:08:16
they are not. The only ones it is not true
00:08:18
that until it's published in a Legacy Media Outlet, you know.
00:08:21
Oh nothing can happen. You know, there are the final
00:08:24
word, no reputation is something you build and there's a lot of
00:08:27
very reputable. Content creators?
00:08:29
Yes. Okay, I'm obsessed with this
00:08:32
topic of like, just like reputation online, right, which
00:08:35
was sort of raised with holy Lon Twitter badge problem where he
00:08:40
didn't seem to understand what the value of badges were in a
00:08:43
certain way, badges can take away the power of media
00:08:47
institutions because it's you know Twitter sort of designating
00:08:51
certain people is reliable my question to you and this has no
00:08:55
easy answer. But like where do you see
00:08:58
Reputation going like the next couple years.
00:09:02
It's just like hard if you just drop in to Twitter to know.
00:09:05
Like even I follow a script dose of this coffee person, you're
00:09:08
saying oh, they're the reliable one autism Capital.
00:09:12
Sometimes, like, how do we get to the point where we have,
00:09:14
like, more of a scoop scorecard? Or it's just like, who's getting
00:09:18
stuff right? Or do you see any effort to like
00:09:21
outside of, like, people have to join media organizations?
00:09:25
That build such a big reputation and people sort of understand
00:09:28
them? How does the layperson track
00:09:30
reputations? It's really hard because you
00:09:33
like you said, you don't know the background on a lot of these
00:09:35
people, they're not right. I mean, ideally these people
00:09:38
become big enough that they become household names, right?
00:09:41
And you kind of know the gist, you know about them.
00:09:45
I mean a lot of people would say that the New York Times is not
00:09:47
reputable, right? Because they disagree with you
00:09:49
know, so I think yeah, reputation is something, you
00:09:52
know? Eric I've thought about a lot
00:09:53
because my own reputation is so good and I'm like, What's Up?
00:09:58
It's very polarized at this point.
00:10:00
Well, it's right. Which is so crazy to me because
00:10:03
like I just see all this stuff online and I'm like anyone that
00:10:05
knows me knows that. Like this is just delusionally,
00:10:09
this is not who I am. This is not what I even espouse,
00:10:11
but it's very hard to correct that because your reputation is
00:10:15
not your own right. Like you.
00:10:17
It used to be this top-down thing where you could kind of
00:10:19
declare and you still can, obviously you can build your own
00:10:22
presence online, but I think it's very much crowdsourced
00:10:24
reputation for all, which is not good.
00:10:27
I mean, I imagine that there are I need better ways to filter it.
00:10:30
You mentioned the Twitter verification thing.
00:10:31
I'm interested to see like with sub stack to like how do they
00:10:36
you know, handle reputation. Right?
00:10:38
Well, we have badges now for based on how many crappy Pizza,
00:10:42
great but like Alex Berenson, you know, who I think people
00:10:46
would say, is not reputable like right, you know, he can still
00:10:49
get one of those badges. I don't know.
00:10:50
I think there's no good proxy for it and the verification
00:10:53
thing is like brought a lot of these tensions to light.
00:10:56
I mean, part of your, you know, You know, Tucker Carlson.
00:11:00
Sadly loves to make you a character.
00:11:03
I mean he knows you're not like that.
00:11:05
I mean right? It's just people want a foil to
00:11:10
create the storylines that they want, right?
00:11:12
I mean that's sort of how these YouTube accounts work in the
00:11:14
same ways in that everybody she's telling a story and you
00:11:18
need to sort of villainize somebody in like at least in the
00:11:23
lower Stakes world of non politics, it feels like
00:11:26
everybody's sort of in on it because You're getting
00:11:29
villainized and makes you more of a character and that's good
00:11:31
for you. I don't like but politics is
00:11:34
serious. I guess.
00:11:35
How do you separate that? You drink by a fire hose, like
00:11:38
all this tea culture on YouTube where it feels like the stakes
00:11:40
are lower. And then you see it playing out
00:11:43
in politics, where it affects you in the stakes.
00:11:45
Feel higher. I don't know.
00:11:46
How do you make sense of the world here?
00:11:48
Yeah. Well, the stakes are higher,
00:11:50
right? Eric.
00:11:50
It's like, I mean, that, this is literally how Donald Trump.
00:11:54
And, by the way, I covered the 2016 election, you know, and
00:11:57
this is stuff that I cover it. Is this battle for online
00:12:00
attention. It's funny.
00:12:01
You know, when I was just arguing with someone so many
00:12:03
people, it's like people see my work, and I think there's this
00:12:07
Narrative of like, oh, she's writing about, like, you said, a
00:12:09
silly things or entertainment, adjacent things influencers, it
00:12:12
seen as very like teen feminized, but online influence
00:12:17
is shaping. Everything old are, you know?
00:12:19
She's 87. I know, right?
00:12:22
It's the way the age three is so funny, too, because like, it's
00:12:25
very obvious. When I graduated college and
00:12:27
started work, Because I've been so fun.
00:12:30
Like where do you think this like lost decade came from like,
00:12:34
what was I do it? Yeah, sorry for conducts.
00:12:36
I just feel like you've articulated very well but you
00:12:39
get hit from both ways. When you were a young reporter,
00:12:42
I was like, oh she doesn't know anything.
00:12:44
And then as soon as you're sort of of the age of, you know, I
00:12:48
don't know, credibility, it's like already and you're all
00:12:50
you're too old to be like worried about creators and so
00:12:54
there's a lot of varied, obviously, gendered sort of
00:12:58
gate. Keeping just to sort of come at
00:13:00
you on Twitter, which is hilarious.
00:13:02
Because anyone that watches YouTube like there was one week
00:13:04
last year I think was last year, the year before but it was like
00:13:07
Trisha Paytas, Jeffree Star. Shane Dawson.
00:13:10
And keemstar. Oh, and Phil DeFranco got
00:13:12
involved were all fighting. And I'm like, these people are
00:13:15
all like between ages of like 38 and 45 lat.
00:13:20
If you think YouTube drama is only for teenagers.
00:13:22
Like please, please spend some time on YouTube, right?
00:13:25
I mean, that's the thing. Is online influence.
00:13:27
It reminds me of Technology. Right?
00:13:28
It's like people think of things as a toy and they don't take it
00:13:32
seriously. At first, a lot of, you know,
00:13:33
consumers with this whole kayfabe sort of culture like the
00:13:36
fake fights, I mean, obviously Trump would do it all the time.
00:13:40
I mean to certain degree were literally experience unit with
00:13:43
the speaker of the house right now where there isn't like this,
00:13:46
super Advanced like policy agenda, their seemingly getting
00:13:51
everything they want in terms of like rules changes to the house
00:13:55
but what they really want, like all the stories basically say is
00:13:57
just Tab like the fight on Fox News.
00:14:01
Like there was that one of the members of Congress didn't even
00:14:03
go vote until he got done with his TV hit because it's like the
00:14:07
obvious priorities. I don't know.
00:14:08
Like our culture is just do you think it's because of YouTube or
00:14:13
like? Yeah, do you think the internet
00:14:15
has changed our culture to make it sort of less serious and have
00:14:18
these drama fights in every pocket?
00:14:21
Obviously, I mean, this is what algorithmic, this is the
00:14:23
consequence of things like algorithmic these that optimized
00:14:26
for attention. I mean You know, if you're going
00:14:29
to set up the social internet, the way that we have it set up,
00:14:31
this is the type of thing it's going to incentivize.
00:14:33
It's going to reward engagement over all else which is that's
00:14:38
the system we have now that's why we obviously need to build a
00:14:41
better. Would you go back to The
00:14:43
Gatekeepers like is are? No, no definitely see that.
00:14:47
I'm more mixed. I Believe In The Gatekeepers
00:14:49
little, I mean there was value in like, you know, the New York
00:14:53
Times sort of learning about something and deciding this is
00:14:57
like to pet. So we're not going to cover it,
00:15:00
you know, like 100 by tens dick pics or something and so then it
00:15:04
wouldn't seep into the culture and the culture wouldn't become
00:15:07
about that. Now, we live in this world where
00:15:10
there's almost like a fatalism to what gets covered because the
00:15:14
internet's obviously much more powerful than any of these
00:15:17
institutions. Yeah, I mean, I'm a Believer.
00:15:20
I obviously work and Legacy Media now.
00:15:22
So I believe in the, you know, the promise of of Legacy Media
00:15:27
but I don't want to live in a world where that is the only
00:15:32
dominant system only because I remember that world from when I
00:15:35
was younger and it was horrible. Like I mean there's just the
00:15:39
certain war in the Middle East. Yeah, misguided and nobody
00:15:43
complained and also just like, I mean, on a personal level like
00:15:46
that's what got me in. I like got into writing about
00:15:49
this stuff because these mainstream Outlets were writing
00:15:51
about influencers in the internet in such a ridiculous
00:15:54
way and I was like I'm gonna do it myself, you know?
00:15:58
So Think there's flaws, I think we obviously need a better
00:16:00
system, you know. I think it's tempting and Times
00:16:03
of disruption, right to be like, oh well, let's just go back to
00:16:06
the old one because, you know, you kind of get nostalgic and
00:16:10
stuff, but it's like, no, no, no.
00:16:11
We need to move forward. We just need it.
00:16:13
Like you're saying, we need this infrastructure.
00:16:15
All of this is very new, you know, right.
00:16:17
Well we don't even know how to talk about someone like Elon
00:16:21
Musk like if any I mean the media probably even more than
00:16:25
like Twitter is struggled with people like you.
00:16:28
Trump and musk who clearly lie all the time, but are also
00:16:34
beloved in some cases for very valid reasons and and people
00:16:38
could have the view that, like them being honest.
00:16:41
Consistently is not the thing they value the most.
00:16:43
But, but the media is very saying, someone just like,
00:16:46
doesn't have like a consistent rep.
00:16:48
You know, good track record of honesty become such a moral
00:16:53
Claim about like their whole being that the media feels like
00:16:55
very uncomfortable calling it out, right.
00:16:58
I mean, I think a lot of criticism and fair criticism of
00:17:01
the media is Legacy Media, as you know, deference to power and
00:17:06
deference to other Legacy institutions and corporations,
00:17:09
right? You hear that a lot and when I
00:17:11
talk to people especially people that get most of their news from
00:17:13
the internet, they're sick of that corporate media
00:17:17
environment, right? And so then they sort of over
00:17:20
correct by listening to some billionaire on Twitter right
00:17:25
now. So it's like, okay, but I do
00:17:27
think that like, you know, oh, the media industry as a whole
00:17:30
needs to look in the mirror and be like, okay, who are we not
00:17:32
talking to you because we're just serving this one audience,
00:17:35
right, right. Yeah, it's so easy.
00:17:38
I mean, one of my last chord is a Bloomberg.
00:17:40
I don't wanna get into the whole thing, but like I basically it
00:17:43
was, you know, in my newsletter. So I sort of free to have
00:17:47
opinions, but they wouldn't admit it.
00:17:49
And I just sort of was suggesting the Ted Cruz was
00:17:52
playing footsie with q and on by getting really upset about the
00:17:55
whole Netflix. Cuties thing.
00:17:57
Yeah. And like Bloomberg went
00:17:59
ballistic that I was suggesting a connection even though Cruz
00:18:02
people, you know, you know, I didn't ask whose people for
00:18:06
comment because it was like a column type situation.
00:18:08
So then, of course, Bloomberg sort of wielded that as like,
00:18:10
well, you have to ask for comment, which, like, in any,
00:18:13
you know, it's like and then we did and they didn't comment,
00:18:17
right? It's like what, where's the
00:18:18
comment distance? Ted Cruz, please, distance.
00:18:21
I was begging them like distance yourself from q and on just say
00:18:24
Q nouns like laughable and I would never been, of course they
00:18:26
didn't. And so the Media is like you
00:18:29
know even Bloomberg sort of deference to you know they want
00:18:33
to keep their sources in in the hill and play the game the right
00:18:35
way and so it's a powerful force.
00:18:38
Yeah. I mean do you see media
00:18:40
especially it's like the entitlement of certain people.
00:18:44
I worked in d.c. media for two years so I can say this but it's
00:18:48
just I understand that you know I understand where the
00:18:50
resentment comes from. That said I think that Legacy
00:18:54
Media institutions are at very crucial, check on Democracy
00:18:57
because only Currently in this media environment have the
00:19:01
resources to do a lot of this, like, really intense
00:19:04
accountability journalism, that these content creators, who many
00:19:07
of them are amazing, and given the resources could do a lot
00:19:09
better work, you know, don't and there's value in certain
00:19:13
reporters having like Leverage over sources or like I worry,
00:19:18
sometimes that you sort of the intense, High scrutiny interview
00:19:22
right in this world where people just go on, like, Lex freedmen.
00:19:26
And he asks like, I mean, they're interesting.
00:19:28
In, but it just sort of in some ways fills, whatever public
00:19:32
appetite there is to hear from, you know, a tech CEO while they
00:19:37
don't have as much pressure to. Like, I don't know, sit down
00:19:41
with the New York Times be reporter.
00:19:42
Who's worried about all the sort of serious story lines or I
00:19:47
don't know. It was this never where we ever
00:19:49
in the situation where be reporters had.
00:19:51
I mean, it sort of Ebbs and flows, but is there a solution
00:19:53
to this? Or what, what's going to get
00:19:55
these people in front of the pen and paper of The hard serious,
00:20:00
be reporters. I think it goes back to
00:20:02
audience, right? What audience, you're trying to
00:20:04
reach. If you are just trying to reach
00:20:05
your fans anyway or convince people to be fans.
00:20:08
Yeah, you're going to go on those friendly podcast.
00:20:10
I would say people in powerful situations still might do
00:20:13
antagonist, eight interviews. I mean, I just think of
00:20:15
celebrities which is again all of this stuff.
00:20:17
It's like so much of it starts in entertainment.
00:20:19
Celebrity culture than bleeds out to politics and business but
00:20:22
like you know celebrities will do this to they'll just have
00:20:25
these BS red carpet reporters and stuff but sometimes Will
00:20:28
Smith is a good example, right? He fucked up, he wanted to do
00:20:32
that sort of accountability interview with, you know, a
00:20:36
television journalist because he knew that that was something
00:20:39
like he knew. That like fans wanted his feet
00:20:42
to be held to the fire and like he had fucked up and that was a
00:20:44
way to like redeem his own credibility.
00:20:47
And so I think, you know, are they going to be our day?
00:20:49
I don't think Business Leaders are going to do those types of
00:20:51
like casual interviews anymore. Like I don't think they have to,
00:20:55
but I do think that you know, if you You mess up publicly, you
00:20:59
need to reach people. Like at the end of the day human
00:21:02
beings, thankfully do care about reputation.
00:21:04
And so, if you have a reputation for seriousness, that is the
00:21:08
value, that will last more than like, whatever the current
00:21:11
battle lines are on like Media or maybe you just don't want to
00:21:14
lose your money, right? Like no one's, but you're, you
00:21:18
know, it's like, you're hemorrhaging money, your movies
00:21:20
are being canceled shit. Do you think media like the big
00:21:24
Outlets like New York Times post?
00:21:27
Maybe with this line of thinking, it's almost, like,
00:21:29
should they have restricted reporters more on Twitter like
00:21:32
the strength of their brand was being sort of authoritative when
00:21:37
there's sort of this, like, tea culture?
00:21:39
I don't know, like, some of your own fights.
00:21:41
Yeah. Art like, people will like shit
00:21:44
on Taylor. The Twitter Persona, when I feel
00:21:46
like if they went through all your stories, there would be
00:21:48
nothing really. Oh, and that's another with my
00:21:50
work though, those, they're not reading, right, but the Twitter
00:21:53
thing is a double-edged sword for you, right?
00:21:56
Oh 100% %. I mean internet it gives and
00:21:58
takes right and I hadn't audience before Twitter, like I
00:22:01
got into media because of my Tumblr, audience, and blogging.
00:22:06
I mean, that's I built my own audience before.
00:22:08
Well, I had a platform before Twitter, and I have a platform
00:22:11
mean, I have way more followers on Tick Tock than I do on
00:22:13
Twitter. So I know the media is obsessed
00:22:16
with Twitter. That is certainly not my end-all
00:22:19
be-all at all. I mostly just go in there to
00:22:21
yell at other people lately, but I think like, in terms of
00:22:24
journalists in general building brands, Whatever.
00:22:27
I've always said, I understand if I was CEO of a media company,
00:22:31
I wouldn't want my journalist building brands.
00:22:32
Of course, I want them serving me.
00:22:34
I totally respect that perspective, right?
00:22:37
But as a journalist I don't think that's that's not, you
00:22:39
know, that obviously, your, your incentives are not aligned in
00:22:43
that space. That said, it can be very
00:22:46
beneficial to of these companies in terms of generating
00:22:50
subscribers to hire big-name Brands.
00:22:52
Right? So it depends.
00:22:53
Do I want my beat reporters building up their own brands on?
00:22:57
My back. No, but what I go out and
00:22:59
recruit some big-name columnist because they're going to bring
00:23:02
in subscribers. Yes.
00:23:03
So I think it depends on goals. It depends on give-and-take, for
00:23:06
me, it's been, yeah, it's been a double-edged sword.
00:23:08
I don't even know. It's mostly been bad in terms of
00:23:11
the harassment, but it's been good.
00:23:12
In the sense that I think a lot of people who weren't familiar
00:23:15
with my work, see people ranting about me and then read.
00:23:20
And I mean, it's amazing. I mean, you got a lot of
00:23:22
interviews for your FTX story. It's like I feel like you're
00:23:25
getting even sort of people in my Skeptically, not on the
00:23:28
Taylor side of Twitter drama are still picking up the phone and
00:23:32
talking to you for a lot of these stories.
00:23:34
Yeah. Because also I do think I do a
00:23:36
good job with my story. I mean, I don't know, like I
00:23:39
don't I think also at, you know, I'm talking to influencers and I
00:23:43
do have authority in that space because it's a space that I've
00:23:46
always covered. You know, the second half of
00:23:48
this conversation, we're going to talk about the state of the
00:23:52
Creator economy. But before I got to that and
00:23:53
since we're talking about Twitter and I mean one of your
00:23:56
recent story, Ruiz was on sort of the whole Elon Musk flight
00:24:01
Jet tracking situation and basically throwing water on the
00:24:05
idea that there was like a real security threat.
00:24:09
Yeah, what happened with that story?
00:24:10
By the way, I mean, it's a classic musk situation and that
00:24:13
we all just like, move on to the next thing.
00:24:15
Well, what happened is, I was on Twitter and I saw him tweet out
00:24:19
this video. That was like, you know, do you
00:24:22
know this man? And this video XYZ and I was
00:24:25
like, all right, I'm going to find In the video quickly, found
00:24:28
the guy in the video found him, even before the police found
00:24:31
him, I spoke to him. I reached out to him was a whole
00:24:35
thing. So I reached out to be Lon, hey,
00:24:37
you asked for the guy in the video, I know who it is.
00:24:40
You know, will you talk to us, withdrew her?
00:24:42
Well, my colleague who did this right together?
00:24:45
No, of course not. He didn't want to talk to us.
00:24:46
And then I, and then he banned me, right after every shot for
00:24:49
coming. And I was like, what the hell
00:24:51
and then it was like this made-up, excuse for Banning me
00:24:53
about like it was that I violated the, my tweet that was
00:24:56
Violet. It was like, I promoted my
00:24:58
Instagram account. It was like ridiculous.
00:25:00
I think he was searching hard on that one, but Drew is still
00:25:04
banned but these Drew refuses to your rescue.
00:25:07
The stupid. I'm Cox.
00:25:11
And that's gonna be the subject line here.
00:25:14
No, no, no. But anyway, that was what kicked
00:25:18
off that story? But I thought it was such a good
00:25:19
example because when we actually untangled what happened it was
00:25:23
not as Elon was representing it at all.
00:25:25
And I think it's just a classic example.
00:25:27
Of all of you online, right? Do you think Twitter is going to
00:25:32
die or what is your view? No.
00:25:35
And do you think people are just gone like hysterical?
00:25:37
No. Yeah, I don't think it's gonna
00:25:38
die. I do think people are a little.
00:25:41
I mean, just I think it becoming like the musk storyline Place
00:25:46
heard it. Almost as much as anything it
00:25:48
was just becoming. It's like the storyline can't
00:25:50
just be one thing all the time. I mean, I've never been somebody
00:25:54
who's like, oh, I don't know. The whole service is about to
00:25:56
shut. It down and I thought people are
00:25:58
getting a little crazy about that but I had yeah, but I had
00:26:02
the fight with one of my friends over that because he was like
00:26:04
the service is going to shut down and I was like, you are
00:26:06
delusional. Yeah.
00:26:08
But you think Twitter lives on fine?
00:26:11
I mean, I just think of other sort of examples of tech
00:26:14
platforms. And I think, unless the
00:26:16
companies actively shuttering it like Vine for instance, it kind
00:26:20
of just goes on to Oblivion, like it turns into a ghost town,
00:26:23
right? Like, it's I think that like,
00:26:26
people didn't I'll leave, you know, Tumblr didn't shut down,
00:26:29
but everyone kind of migrated onto Twitter and I think
00:26:33
already, we're seeing people know the roles that Twitter used
00:26:36
to play in terms of real-time news in terms of reaching people
00:26:39
at scale. I think actually Tick Tock has
00:26:40
completely taken over all of that average.
00:26:43
People like I mean I was just thinking, it's like if you see a
00:26:46
fire on the side of the highway, no one else has seen it yet.
00:26:49
You take a video of it. It used to be that you'd
00:26:51
probably post that on Twitter writing.
00:26:53
People's first instinct is like oh shit, I better show this one
00:26:56
to talk, right? If you post on Twitter it's just
00:26:58
so other people can steal your video.
00:27:00
Yeah, actually get the audience yourself.
00:27:04
Yeah. And also just like, I think
00:27:06
that's just the algorithmic discovery there, you know, it's
00:27:08
going to get seen, but I don't think like, Twitter is gonna go
00:27:12
away or whatever. Also, you know, you and I are in
00:27:14
Tech, like, tech people are so addicted to Twitter.
00:27:17
They're not going to leave their Cloud on the table.
00:27:18
Well, I just I, you know, so many of the fights that happen
00:27:22
on Twitter are just like pretending Twitter is real life
00:27:26
and I think the More everyone just disengages with that idea.
00:27:30
Like the happier and less conflicted, we will be yeah, the
00:27:34
Creator economy. So I feel like there are lots.
00:27:36
We're changing gears, you know. Yeah, I think there's been a
00:27:40
lot. There's this sort of sense out
00:27:42
there that the Creator economy, I don't know, has been overhyped
00:27:45
or at least is a business story or a little bit.
00:27:48
Some of the investment in Creator.
00:27:50
Stuff, is pulling back her? I don't know.
00:27:52
What's the meme in the air about the Creator economy?
00:27:55
Am I saying it, right? And what's your view on it as
00:27:58
the expert here? Yeah, I know.
00:28:01
Well, I have to say the term Creator economy becomes kind of
00:28:05
like, it bane of my existence. I like it.
00:28:08
I do. I mean here's the thing, I think
00:28:10
having covered this industry, it's like, there's been so many
00:28:13
names for everything like names for creators.
00:28:16
You know? I remember when people were
00:28:18
called so web-ready is and you are 80.
00:28:23
Yeah, exactly. Now I'm just a millennial and
00:28:25
Ancient One. You But I started in 2009, you
00:28:28
know, and and the term Creator as you know which was pioneered
00:28:31
by next new networks which wasn't even acquired by YouTube,
00:28:34
I think until 2011. So that's really when the term
00:28:36
took off in terms of a YouTuber Creator which is what, you know,
00:28:39
where it's sort of seeped out from.
00:28:40
But I think that I mean the influencer industry is also what
00:28:44
I would call it. I think that it's like, it's
00:28:46
been going again. This is a ship that's been
00:28:48
happening for 20 years that I think.
00:28:50
When the pandemic hit VCS and investors were like, oh wait,
00:28:54
what is this? Like a lot of VCS And I noticed
00:28:57
a lot of feces that never paid attention to Media before
00:29:00
suddenly be interested in like, you know, this world.
00:29:05
And I think the ones that were like a little burned by digital
00:29:07
media. We're not as like full hyped on
00:29:09
it, but yeah, and then he started publishing all this
00:29:11
stuff. And, like you said, there was
00:29:12
this whole hype cycle, which was great, but I think a lot of
00:29:16
those Investments were really bad Investments, like it's not
00:29:19
that there isn't a market and this isn't a huge
00:29:21
multibillion-dollar industry. It's just that, like, they hyped
00:29:24
this group of startups where there wasn't really a Need.
00:29:27
And I think that showed just think of maybe a
00:29:28
misunderstanding of the market, and the opportunities.
00:29:32
I mean, because most of the money is just flowing to the
00:29:35
Creator's themselves as sort of add Brands, like that trend is
00:29:40
still continuing, even if there's an advertising pull back
00:29:43
and then building your own, I mean, that's the big thing.
00:29:46
Like, right is productizing yourself like the happy Dad,
00:29:48
Seltzer from now, or whatever, right?
00:29:50
Like yeah, that's been the trend for 7 years now, is that move
00:29:53
towards Promoting your own stuff which again is like I think this
00:29:58
has been another misunderstanding of Silicon
00:30:00
Valley maybe just like not realizing that a lot of this
00:30:03
infrastructure was already in place like they don't
00:30:06
necessarily need XYZ platform for ex-wife like but I think
00:30:10
it's you know it's like all types Cycles it's good because
00:30:12
money flows into the space and it accelerates and right makes
00:30:15
all these cool changes and most startups don't survive right?
00:30:18
And so I think these are like oh shit maybe we didn't understand,
00:30:21
you know, this Market that's all right.
00:30:22
And a lot of the people getting screwed her Like you didn't have
00:30:25
a big following and it's like if you had a newsletter on Facebook
00:30:27
and they were paying you, some upfront thing, you know, is it a
00:30:32
crisis? I guess, I don't know it.
00:30:34
So you're getting free money before and now it's coming to an
00:30:37
end. Like I don't know how sorry like
00:30:39
I feel for you but yeah. Well they were like I mean I
00:30:42
think it's like a lot of people built creators sort type
00:30:45
features like you said, and then like paid money to boost it.
00:30:48
I liked this thing that Mike mignola no wrote he's at
00:30:52
Lightspeed now he's he made a pod Just at that makes it easier
00:30:55
to make podcast. And you just talked about sort
00:30:57
of like he called it the creativity supply chain.
00:31:00
But he's talked about like, creative tools and how there is
00:31:02
a market for Creative tools. Maybe not like these Niche,
00:31:06
things of like, allowing specific creators to do specific
00:31:08
things with their product, but like, creative tools.
00:31:11
Like, we all need those, and they're very useful products,
00:31:14
like description of the makes it easier to edit.
00:31:16
We're using Riverside right now, which makes it easier to record
00:31:18
a podcast. Yeah, that sort of thing, right?
00:31:21
Or yeah, exactly. And it's hard.
00:31:23
I mean, I don't It's investing in companies, very much, a game
00:31:28
of luck to, but I think that's where a lot of the contraction
00:31:31
is coming from. I've literally been through.
00:31:33
I'm sure you remember to just so many things of is the influencer
00:31:37
world over. I remember in 2017, when the FTC
00:31:39
started cracking down, and it was like same thing, like, he's
00:31:42
the Creator economy dead or whatever, you know, people.
00:31:45
None of these shifts in media, media is only getting more
00:31:48
distributed Legacy systems are only losing influence.
00:31:51
So, like, those are ships that have been happening for 20
00:31:53
years, it It's not going to do is sort of like, you know, and
00:31:57
I've been guilty of this in in the business world.
00:32:00
It's like is this.com is this the.com bust?
00:32:03
And it's like well, clearly Tech isn't going away.
00:32:06
Whereas in.com and really felt like maybe it was but it's just
00:32:09
like, is this a really bad sort of downturn and are sort of the
00:32:13
dominant players really going to get hurt it?
00:32:15
It's like no one thinks text going away.
00:32:17
No one thinks these creators are going away but if if everybody's
00:32:21
pulling back, what does that mean for them?
00:32:22
And obviously yeah there's been a lot of Like free money on both
00:32:26
both sides. Yeah.
00:32:28
And I think that's going to obviously contract like the,
00:32:30
it's going to be the smaller ones.
00:32:32
I mean, mr. Beast is going to be fine.
00:32:34
I have a, this girl that I know that graduated journalism school
00:32:37
just went to work for mr. Beats do, I think that's a good
00:32:40
example of the future of media. You know, I always say that
00:32:43
like, if I was graduating college today, there's no way in
00:32:46
hell I would be going to try and work at the New York Times.
00:32:50
You know, like no, it's just not where media is going.
00:32:54
And so, you know, I think things like that, always free and it is
00:32:58
a good corrective. I mean, the reality is, most
00:33:02
people don't care about like news, they want, they want like
00:33:06
content create but, you know, they want like, advice about
00:33:08
their lives or it's something that is a creator that I guess,
00:33:12
you know, inside the head of a crater at the moment is just how
00:33:16
much am I news only or how much am I sort of investor Tech, you
00:33:21
know, as I think about even like this podcast, you know, I Love
00:33:24
like what's in the moment, sort of like what's the story line?
00:33:28
But there is like such an audience demand obviously for
00:33:31
for advice and great. Great journalism.
00:33:34
You know can be instructive, you know, if I feel like that's why
00:33:37
people love like biographies, you know?
00:33:39
I read Ashley Vance's must biography.
00:33:41
And I think on the e-book you can sort of see where people
00:33:43
take notes and a lot of this stuff they like is just like
00:33:46
musk's like business wisdom, you know, it's like journalists or
00:33:48
reading it for like the craft and like the Scoops and then
00:33:52
regular people are like how can I Like in some small part of my
00:33:56
life like emulate these successful people and we have
00:33:59
such a like skewed view. I don't know of what, right?
00:34:02
I mean part of the problem I like do you think the media is
00:34:05
just like lost track of like, what the consumer wants and like
00:34:07
how much should consumer want dry?
00:34:10
Like, we were monopolies for a while, right?
00:34:12
So we lost touch with what people wanted, a hundred
00:34:14
percent. I mean, I think of this all the
00:34:16
time with the rise of mommy bloggers, which I know is a
00:34:19
term. A lot of women don't like, but
00:34:20
for lack of a better term. The reason that that entire
00:34:24
Kaboom happened was because women's media was not talking to
00:34:29
Mom's the way that they were, you know, there were giving like
00:34:31
the worst advice ever. It was like how to clean up for
00:34:33
your husband before he gets home when these moms were like no I
00:34:36
want advice for like you know when my nipples get raw from
00:34:40
breastfeeding or like I won't be able to talk about these hard
00:34:42
things and so I think that's something that the Creator
00:34:45
economy and I would consider bloggers among that shift.
00:34:47
You know it does it meets consumer demands in a better way
00:34:50
because they're forced to compete which as we know is Is
00:34:53
usually a good thing. Hey, Miss Taylor's Pro
00:34:56
capitalism to hear like, well, I'm going to be, I don't know.
00:34:59
I've never said, I'm Auntie capital.
00:35:00
I know, I know, but I'm saying I feel like there's this in come
00:35:03
down the foil to the crypto people.
00:35:07
I know look. So people are like I do but
00:35:09
they're like okay and we're going to fix that with tokens,
00:35:12
right? Right.
00:35:13
I think those disruptions are a good thing.
00:35:16
I think the problem becomes, when you add all these
00:35:19
algorithmic seeds on top of it and things, get Warped.
00:35:23
Right. And because then everybody's
00:35:25
chasing incentives created by these platforms that have
00:35:28
nothing to do with like truth or lie, you know, it's just sort of
00:35:32
whatever it right. I mean that's sort of been so
00:35:34
much of the Facebook coverage on, you know, I feel like
00:35:38
there's been a lot of talk about just sort of YouTube, being such
00:35:42
a generous place for pain out creators relative to the rest,
00:35:47
or like, what what's your view on sort of the state of platform
00:35:51
compensation for creators and like, do you see any movement?
00:35:55
Yeah, I love, I mean, Hank. Green is just like the best on
00:36:00
all of us and if you've seen his videos, is a great, I love him.
00:36:03
And his brother there, I mean, I watch way too much Tick Tock.
00:36:05
So yeah, of course, well Hank made these like amazing YouTube
00:36:09
videos just breaking down. How bad Tick-Tock is for
00:36:11
creators in terms of payment, right?
00:36:13
Specifically calling attention. I thought I was jealous that I
00:36:16
didn't write this Leg Takedown of Creator funds myself because
00:36:20
the whole notion is like, you only have one pie and it gets
00:36:23
split more and more ways through creators enter into the fund.
00:36:25
YouTube is always just given a cut of AD revenue and I think
00:36:28
that's actually smart business and it's a little aoz for
00:36:31
stability and it's undeniably a better way.
00:36:34
Now, it is more generous to creators and I think YouTube is,
00:36:37
you know, Twitch also was doing that meant which now is like,
00:36:41
you know, grabbing more money. They're getting greedy.
00:36:43
I think they realize again, these are they do have a
00:36:45
monopoly? I mean, I do it think that are
00:36:47
like platform ecosystem is, is not competitive enough, right?
00:36:51
Right. So I don't know if how friendly
00:36:52
YouTube will be forever, but I do I've generally and this is
00:36:56
wonky Tech territory, but like I've been much more in favor of
00:37:01
I love Congress to pass like a revenue share law, or like a
00:37:05
platform rake law. Like I feel like Democrats have
00:37:08
Gotten so excited about antitrust, is the solution, and
00:37:12
it just like how many are there really going to be that many
00:37:15
like video players or is it more about?
00:37:18
Okay, there's probably a couple dominant ones and we just need
00:37:21
to like their vital institutions for our society and so we're
00:37:25
going to regulate them like auto manufacturers or something or
00:37:29
Airlines you know it's just like these are really fixed
00:37:31
industries that have a lot of power and we need to protect
00:37:36
like you know the pilots and the workers and Passengers.
00:37:39
I'm yeah, I don't know. What is that going to happen?
00:37:43
Do you think that? I feel like they don't even know
00:37:45
what? Like a fenced area is right?
00:37:47
I think they're learning. I mean, you know, these things
00:37:49
take so long but I just think I don't know.
00:37:52
Antitrust is the vehicle for it versus a bill.
00:37:55
That sort of says, here's here's, you know, you probably
00:37:58
need like a rat, you know, Revenue threshold.
00:38:01
Like you don't want small startups to have to deal with
00:38:03
this, but it's some sighs. Yeah, I wonder what that would
00:38:07
look like. I yes, to me, it's hard to
00:38:09
Picture only because I feel like people within the media, don't
00:38:12
even grasp, you know, the stuff and I don't know, but it would
00:38:16
be interesting. I mean, I think Something's
00:38:19
Gotta Give, You know, and I do think that, like, it's been
00:38:21
really fun to watch Tick, Tock come in, and just like force.
00:38:26
All of these companies to, like, be on their toes because I, you
00:38:29
know, I was getting a little like flat wine.
00:38:32
I think 2017, 2018. And so literally, the last
00:38:35
episode was sort of about how consumer apps have Pretty much
00:38:40
flubbed, you know, like there's the clubhouse hype there was all
00:38:42
this people really wanted to like will consumer into being
00:38:48
but besides, you know, of course Tick Tock which, you know, a lot
00:38:51
of the money is in in China. I mean, do you agree?
00:38:54
It sounds like you're agreeing with that thesis.
00:38:55
But yeah, we've been in sort of like a consumer app, winter,
00:38:59
right? I think so too.
00:39:02
Yeah, it seems like that. Only because all these apps,
00:39:05
like you said, they get hype and then they kind of fizzle.
00:39:07
Yeah, be real are. Are you optimistic or yeah?
00:39:11
I mean again. I think it depends how they can
00:39:13
evolve their product, that's always the challenge.
00:39:17
It's like, sometimes you come up with this interesting new
00:39:19
format, can you scale it and scale it while retaining that
00:39:24
audience? I think that's very hard to do.
00:39:26
We just seems like yeah France. I think it's Pete, you know.
00:39:29
It's just sort of peaked at so many of these things you know?
00:39:32
Yeah. You have to keep growth.
00:39:33
Is everything. Yeah I mean Nikita beer keeps me
00:39:37
doing his quiz apps. Oh yeah.
00:39:40
Yeah. Well, if you keep your
00:39:42
expectations, you know it's just like what's the new one is?
00:39:45
Like you Heidi? Okay.
00:39:48
Yeah. I like those little like viral
00:39:50
things. I think it's like you go into it
00:39:52
and I think he would agree with this, like, you think he's
00:39:54
pretty clear-eyed about, you know, it's not like he's
00:39:57
necessarily trying to evolve that into the Next Generation
00:39:59
social platform, maybe he is, but I think I think it's like
00:40:02
there's room for those viral apps, but staying power.
00:40:05
I don't think that everyone wants to be connected either.
00:40:08
Like I don't Don't think I think I think what Tick-Tock did in
00:40:11
terms of removing the need to follow people and putting so
00:40:15
much of a burden on the user and forcing them to develop these
00:40:19
permanent connections. I think is actually I don't
00:40:21
think that's the future so are you not worried about like the
00:40:23
China issue or what's your view on?
00:40:26
Oh my God, I my view is if you all these people the same people
00:40:30
there's a great does Moto video actually about this that I was
00:40:32
about to share on Tick-Tock if you have concerns about data
00:40:35
privacy rate Tick-Tock. Let's talk about The privacy
00:40:39
because the people that are you know, it's all amped on
00:40:42
Tick-Tock are the same ones that are, you know, totally fine with
00:40:45
Facebook stealing. All of our data, like China can
00:40:47
buy us data. China is, you know, Tick-Tock is
00:40:50
not the only Chinese app. You know, there's tons of us
00:40:53
data firms. That would happily sell our data
00:40:55
to Chinese interests. I think it's just totally
00:40:58
overhyped BS. It's, none of us.
00:41:00
Consistent. Of course, it's like, first of
00:41:02
all, we don't have a Smoking Gun but second of all, it's like,
00:41:04
okay, fine. I'm willing to accept that, you
00:41:07
know, maybe, Okay. We should talk about like
00:41:10
Chinese or foreign entities, buying our data.
00:41:13
That means we need comprehensive data privacy reform.
00:41:15
Right now we're so far away from that and no one is even talking
00:41:18
about that. It's just like, let's villainize
00:41:20
Tick-Tock. All right, I have to this is
00:41:23
good. We actually disagree on
00:41:24
something here, Ami and you've been pretty positive unticked.
00:41:28
I would say, from what I've? I'm not positive.
00:41:31
I think that like, I think that's good.
00:41:32
Beatriz, got it? Yeah.
00:41:35
All right, the two things I'll say, like, first of all.
00:41:39
This speech code and I'm not saying this specific to what
00:41:41
China is doing but there's a lot of self-censorship because of
00:41:45
tick-tocks content moderation. No, nothing compared to
00:41:48
Instagram nothing but here on. Okay, just let me.
00:41:51
Yeah, I know that's true but like I'm not saying because it's
00:41:55
Chinese, I'm just saying the fact that like Tic, Tacs
00:41:58
deciding, whether people can say suicide or not, like everyone
00:42:00
says on alived, just okay. I'll let you talking all.
00:42:04
You don't want that in the hands of a Chinese company even if
00:42:07
they're making the Same decisions that a US company
00:42:10
would it's just, it feels like such a like this is like the
00:42:14
morality of our society and there's a lot of value.
00:42:17
No, I would just want in the hands of Americans and not
00:42:21
people who are sort of at the whims of the Chinese Communist
00:42:24
party. Then my number two point which
00:42:25
is very different, is just like if China is not going to let
00:42:30
American apps compete competitively in China.
00:42:33
It's terrible like foreign policy business strategy,
00:42:37
whatever to I'm like have one of the dominant consumer apps, the
00:42:41
United States I guess if we like son, if Facebook's allowed to
00:42:44
compete in China, I'm more opening to revisit but it just,
00:42:49
we're suckers at the moment. Let me respond to two things.
00:42:52
Number one Tick Tock is far more permissive than Instagram.
00:42:56
I say this as somebody who has lost multiple Instagram accounts
00:42:58
and is constantly getting Community guidelines violations.
00:43:01
Okay. I can't even say, haha, like I
00:43:03
can't remember what I got banned for the other day.
00:43:05
I mean, I've been banned for saying stuff about women when
00:43:07
I'm a woman like I mean there's just is so in its tells me that
00:43:12
people have spent zero time on Instagram, because Instagram is
00:43:15
the strictest platform out there in terms of what you can say and
00:43:18
what you can't say in my opinion.
00:43:21
Yeah. And I think many, I mean,
00:43:22
there's entire movement me movement that agrees with that.
00:43:26
So I think I mean I guess I'm Marc Andreessen can walk
00:43:29
arm-in-arm freestyle. I have always, I have I have
00:43:33
never, I have I know people say, are you for censorship that is
00:43:36
just never, that is not true and I never have Have an eye.
00:43:40
You know, I don't agree with that.
00:43:41
I am very, I think it's important to have open
00:43:44
discussions and like I said, I tweeted this recently.
00:43:46
I'm like if people on Twitter, I had to spend one day on
00:43:48
Instagram actually using it like the way that people do to share
00:43:52
news and have conversations, they would be radicalized
00:43:54
because it's very restrictive. And look I get wide right
00:43:58
because they've gotten a lot of criticism on safety and I think
00:44:00
they've cracked down because of that.
00:44:02
But if you know it just it drives me crazy.
00:44:05
Where do you think all those terms came from on a live that
00:44:08
started on YouTube? That was a you Tube and
00:44:09
Instagram thing far before Tick-Tock.
00:44:11
So whatever I agree. I mean, I guess Instagrams worse
00:44:15
and it's American. I accept them.
00:44:17
Yeah. But well it's worse on that
00:44:19
issue. Right?
00:44:21
And so I think that like you know if you want to dock a
00:44:24
company lets you know go there. The second thing I will say is
00:44:27
like I get what you're saying in terms of maybe you don't want
00:44:29
China setting like a Chinese interest setting, those speech
00:44:32
rules but there's no, there's no evidence that they are doing any
00:44:36
of that, I guess. And in fact is a country Like
00:44:39
had Jack ma like Running Scared, like the most powerful business
00:44:44
Elites, you know, I just feel like China.
00:44:46
But again, the u.s. totally their horse in the mirror, look,
00:44:51
it's an authoritarian country. However, Tick Tock is a global
00:44:55
platform and, you know, especially with the content
00:44:57
moderation stuff. It's very localized.
00:45:00
And we in America are there's nothing that, you know, your
00:45:04
censored at on Tick-Tock I've ever seen that, is it equally
00:45:08
censored on Instagram other Platforms.
00:45:10
I will say also you know what you're saying about.
00:45:12
Oh we can't compete in China. So why should they whatever?
00:45:16
I think I'm sorry, y-you whatever.
00:45:18
You know what I'm saying? I think that we live we want to
00:45:20
live in a globalized society, right?
00:45:22
I mean, I don't know that it's really good to have this hyper
00:45:25
nationalist thing where were suddenly were drawing borders.
00:45:27
I think that it's a little bit of a taste of our own medicine,
00:45:30
like we've exported Facebook, all over.
00:45:32
Look at the Havoc. It's rot in different democracy.
00:45:35
So I get it. Maybe, maybe these platforms
00:45:38
shouldn't be Global, I guess that's Argument.
00:45:40
I don't know. What do I support colloquialism?
00:45:42
I'm Steve just wheeled the fact that we they can compete in the
00:45:46
united there like a global power.
00:45:49
It's not like this is some developing country anymore the
00:45:52
needs to like protect its own industry.
00:45:53
Like they have thriving meteorites.
00:45:56
Are you gonna say that tight, right?
00:45:58
I just think like these. These rules are very, it's a
00:46:00
very slippery slope. You say Chinese companies can't
00:46:03
do business in America. I mean, look at all these.
00:46:05
He'll they'll allow American technology companies to compete.
00:46:09
I Enjoying. That's so I mean, I think that's
00:46:12
really interesting Earth because like, there's so much
00:46:15
entanglement isn't like League of Legends, like have huge
00:46:19
Chinese ownership, like I can tag entangling all of that.
00:46:23
Maybe I think that's an interesting point and I mean, on
00:46:25
the must story, which we talked about in the Alex Stamos
00:46:27
episode. I mean musk's wealth is so tied
00:46:30
into China and I just want to also flag just sort of in the
00:46:33
China in the are sort of thing. I mean, Peter teal recently gave
00:46:37
a big speech where I took his Take away to be being that the
00:46:41
Republican Party should focus on China.
00:46:43
Confrontation is one of their main issues, which I don't
00:46:46
really know how that plays out in Silicon Valley, where so many
00:46:50
Silicon Valley companies are totally tied in with China
00:46:54
particular, right? And if we're going to talk about
00:46:57
authoritarian regimes, let's talk about the Saudis as well,
00:47:00
right? Like look at musk, you know,
00:47:02
Hamming it up. Just sure recently, you know,
00:47:05
those regimes, it's felt like we get their money and a lot of
00:47:09
Times we blow it on like we work you know is like that so bad for
00:47:12
us. Whereas China, you know, they're
00:47:14
setting policy with Hollywood there.
00:47:17
You know and I just feel like Tick Tock is such an app where
00:47:20
such subtle mom you know you could just boost something and
00:47:23
nobody would know because it's like, what's the a, I think,
00:47:25
like right now, we believe in this sort of, like, purity of
00:47:28
the algorithm, but for all, we know, somebody could put your
00:47:31
thumb on the scale, one, or the other.
00:47:32
If you want to talk about nefarious, algorithms we've yet
00:47:35
to see that harm from Tick-Tock. I don't doubt that it will come
00:47:38
Tick. Tock is The way The Tick-Tock
00:47:40
functions in terms of the mass mob behavior is terrifying, and
00:47:44
I think we'll end up corrib lie, but I don't know I, you know,
00:47:47
it's interesting. I don't have strong, I mean I
00:47:49
have strong opinions about the content moderation stuff because
00:47:52
it's like my thing. But Alex Stamos you mentioned is
00:47:55
like, really smart and security and I very much, you know, trust
00:47:58
him on a lot of security like that type of stuff for sure.
00:48:01
I'm gonna ask a question, you are saying your aunt, ice the
00:48:04
anti-censorship thing. Like do you think we got in like
00:48:07
a period where we were to like, Awkward School D.
00:48:10
Like, I feel like, one of your incidents like souring you with
00:48:13
Silicon Valley, was the whole Clubhouse like retard.
00:48:16
Are we? Yeah, because I could Infuse.
00:48:18
Yeah, let's be clear. What's his name?
00:48:20
Ben Horowitz, said that word and I thought it was Marc
00:48:23
Andreessen. Both bald white guys who I've
00:48:25
never had anything to do with and and other reporter who I
00:48:29
will not name tweeted that first.
00:48:31
So I know I'm persecuted because I confused the two in a single
00:48:34
tweet that I immediately corrected you made the mistake
00:48:37
and you crack it and they take advantage of They don't really
00:48:40
explain the whole story that someone said it and there was
00:48:42
just a confusion of here. I confuse which without her van
00:48:45
driessen would you do things? Like it's a little way, it might
00:48:48
be sorrier. One other thing.
00:48:49
Let me just clarify. If you read my fucking tweet,
00:48:52
I'm defending her. I'm defending.
00:48:54
I said, basically, like, if you're going to act like my
00:48:58
thesis with my thread, which I deleted immediately within two
00:49:01
minutes was like, you know, if you're gonna get mad at this one
00:49:03
co-founder of and reason for saying this word, there's seven
00:49:06
other people on stage. He didn't say anything.
00:49:08
So quote Unquote. Hold those people accountable as
00:49:11
well. You know, I feel like if you
00:49:13
are, I'll there was definitely a period where everybody was like,
00:49:17
tattletaling, on people for saying particular words, right?
00:49:20
Line. I've never been, I'm not part of
00:49:22
that. I am now and I don't, I don't I
00:49:25
think that's a complete Miss intentional.
00:49:28
Miss Miss construing what I said and I look if I want to call
00:49:32
somebody out, I call someone out.
00:49:33
I'm not doing it. Like in some passive way as you
00:49:36
know, I'm not like right. I know that's what.
00:49:39
I mean. Yeah.
00:49:41
I mean I'm sure I was on team Taylor on that at the time, but
00:49:44
it does feel like I don't know, I thought it was an objection to
00:49:47
the word. Well of course I mean I think
00:49:49
it's an ableist word. I'm just saying if you crazy
00:49:52
earlier in this, I mean, yeah, exactly.
00:49:54
We said I know. I'm just saying you just like,
00:49:57
I'm not going to say, I'm not going to say that.
00:50:00
Totally I mean look, is this something that I personally care
00:50:03
about but I would never say that.
00:50:05
That means that you shouldn't be able to type something and put
00:50:09
it on Twitter, let you know. I mean, I guess my feeling
00:50:12
always do them but it doesn't mean it should be banned or I'm
00:50:15
not saying I don't think it but platforms role.
00:50:18
I think we as a society can develop social norms and of
00:50:21
course, different groups, develop social norms of what you
00:50:23
consider acceptable. What you consider racist,
00:50:25
whatever? I don't know that.
00:50:27
That is the platform's roll to determine that.
00:50:31
And again, this this is why I think we need.
00:50:33
As I have always said, despite the fact that people love to
00:50:36
say, I'm cancel culture, whatever, I think that, we, as
00:50:39
users. Sirs deserve the ability to
00:50:42
control our environments on the internet right now.
00:50:45
It's like everyone's subjected to this one thing and everyone's
00:50:47
trying to put their different roles on it.
00:50:49
I mean, that's why something like Discord.
00:50:50
It's like, okay, you can set the rules and people can engage,
00:50:53
sometimes you want to be in the mass mess of it all, and you
00:50:56
don't give a shit like you want to scrap a people find.
00:50:58
Sometimes you want to safer, quote, unquote environment, and
00:51:02
I think you should be able to set those terms.
00:51:03
And I do think I do think part of what sort of broke
00:51:06
everybody's brains. Unlike the media in Silicon
00:51:08
Valley is just Any reporters, or it's like you the backlash
00:51:13
against you, like, showing up at the lives of tick-tock to her,
00:51:16
which obviously, like door knocking a source is the most
00:51:19
like traditional, like mediate, like, I will defend that to my
00:51:23
death and it's absurd. And like Antonio Garcia
00:51:26
Martinez, I think, was trying to say basically like, what if a
00:51:29
random like Twitter accounted? I'm like yeah, but were they
00:51:32
doing it to like find get comment, or were they just
00:51:34
really like intimidate someone anyway, so I stand by that
00:51:37
hundred percent but I do think the media is sort of like It's
00:51:41
an authority figure, it's like the police.
00:51:42
It's like when you show up at somebody's door, there's a like
00:51:45
implicit. Like we, you know, we're coming
00:51:47
for you. And similarly when we blow
00:51:50
something up with big followings and retweet people, it feels
00:51:53
like we're sort of like, yeah, the cops are like the tattletale
00:51:57
sort of, you know, depends, you can frame it different ways.
00:52:00
But, you know, anytime a big account or an authority figure
00:52:03
blows people up on these social media platforms, like Marc
00:52:05
Andreessen, right? I mean they yeah, they do, I
00:52:08
start they've Balaji block me because I wanted to do an
00:52:12
interview request, so I see it less, but I feel like the
00:52:15
call-out culture is sort of like, calm down on Twitter a
00:52:17
little bit. I think so.
00:52:19
I mean, I think a little bit, I think all of them were getting
00:52:22
way too online during the pandemic.
00:52:24
I mean, obviously, we're still in a pandemic but like in 2020,
00:52:27
right? Yeah, it's really it, you know,
00:52:29
it's funny with the door knocking thing, too.
00:52:31
Because I do understand, you know, People not understanding
00:52:35
that or feeling like that, I think it's so often to we expect
00:52:40
that digital things will stay digital, right?
00:52:42
So we expect, right? And so I think it's like
00:52:44
suddenly jarring to be like, oh shit, this is the real world,
00:52:47
right? And even people, I mean my
00:52:49
family's been swatted multiple times.
00:52:51
I've dealt with all the stuff, it's like the people even.
00:52:54
Harassers will sink it in there, headed still digital, you know,
00:52:58
they're living this digital world and they're not realizing
00:53:00
like, no. This is all the real world,
00:53:02
right? I mean, I think one of our
00:53:03
profound Holmes was Society divided, like some up, like a
00:53:07
core problem. I think we have in society.
00:53:08
It's that people that if you were at dinner with them you
00:53:12
would hate them. Are your preferred political
00:53:15
candidate? It's like, like, Rudy Giuliani,
00:53:17
like some of these people. Their children, hate that right?
00:53:21
Like, from everything I can tell like, some of these people, so
00:53:23
give your children hate you. That should matter much more
00:53:28
than like, I don't know whether you're good at doing like a CNN
00:53:31
or Fox News hit. And I feel like, Social media is
00:53:35
totally failed to deliver the information that people who sit
00:53:39
down with these people and people who know them better than
00:53:41
anyone don't like them. And like, I don't know how so
00:53:44
the internet solves that but that's Silicon Valley people go
00:53:48
solve that like that's what I want someone to solve like, how
00:53:51
do I reputations as good humans? Actually, like count for
00:53:54
something online. Well, also just online as we
00:53:57
know is so performative and you have this across the political
00:54:00
Spectrum, right? Like this performative bullshit
00:54:03
that kind of is Is made to bolster your reputation and
00:54:06
nobody knows what you do in private, right hard.
00:54:09
It's hard to know. You never really know if someone
00:54:11
online is quote, unquote, good or bad, you know?
00:54:14
I mean, you, you know, through their behavior in there talking
00:54:17
and stuff, but it's hard to know them, you know, you're never
00:54:19
going to know them personally, probably, right.
00:54:21
But yeah, I mean, I don't know the lives of tick-tock stuff.
00:54:24
I did my job and I absolutely did not docs her for somebody
00:54:27
that concerns. So concerned about doxing.
00:54:29
She tweeted a picture of me at her doorstep, where you could
00:54:33
see, not only The street, she lived on her soda change in
00:54:36
Dallas, and then there are constant like, oh, you linked
00:54:38
her real estate license which had the address of her company,
00:54:41
that's like, yeah, that's it was our payment on a house.
00:54:44
Of course, it was like, oh my God.
00:54:48
I mean, this is where you guys took out the link to anywhere.
00:54:57
Yeah, they took out the link, I think because of all the I don't
00:55:00
remember, the exact reason why probably because people were
00:55:02
misrepresenting it that's like somebody liking to Washington.
00:55:04
Post.com and then me going on Twitter.
00:55:06
Oh my god, I've been dogs. Do link to this address in d.c.?
00:55:09
Yeah, that's the company address.
00:55:11
You live in LA lady. She was living in l.a. she's
00:55:13
even admitted that she lived in LA and I visited her house,
00:55:16
right? That sheets that, you know, by
00:55:18
the way, it's like, where are you registered to vote?
00:55:20
Where do you pay your cell phone bill?
00:55:21
Like, where are you actually living like, no, I would never
00:55:24
linked that. I would never reveal her
00:55:25
address. And yet, here, she is tweeting a
00:55:27
photo of me at her door that reveals everything.
00:55:29
So, it's just a surprise. Yeah, no, I would never linked
00:55:32
to someone's home address. I mean, we need We need more
00:55:34
people to actually care about whether someone's a liar.
00:55:38
Like, I mean, there's just like a lot of people in our society
00:55:40
right now who don't seem to prioritize like people who are
00:55:44
honest enough, I don't know that.
00:55:46
That's not a social media problem that's like a priorities
00:55:49
values problem. I think social media feeds into
00:55:53
it because people develop these parasocial relationships and
00:55:56
they just want to basically eat up content from people that they
00:56:00
agree with you know and there's no intellectual consistency.
00:56:04
See to it. I'ma let you go even I and I
00:56:07
also didn't know this would turn into well, I think it's good.
00:56:10
Some of these scandals like Austin drama drama and I'll
00:56:14
clear the air like, you know, this is why people should give
00:56:20
interviews. It's like useful, like, oh I
00:56:22
didn't realize that this thing people think is like, you know,
00:56:25
slight against you is different than the facts that you consume
00:56:28
on Twitter, but I had another point was going to say we were
00:56:32
talking about I don't know. Tick Tock.
00:56:36
Oh yeah. I mean lives of tick-tock.
00:56:38
You probably can't see this but it's terrible.
00:56:41
I mean it's and the fact that you'll on is so supportive.
00:56:43
I mean, she's so mean-spirited. Like who would want What are you
00:56:48
doing? Valuable for society?
00:56:50
Like I find it so so sad and that I mean, you were the one to
00:56:53
say this is really driving a core part of like the Republican
00:56:57
Party conversation and that's absolutely true in the media so
00:57:01
bad, it stating that. So, yeah, you don't get enough
00:57:03
credit for some of that stuff. This is a Taylor Lorenz tribute
00:57:07
podcast. But but, yeah, I mean, I think I
00:57:09
do this is the sort of overly sincere wrap up, but I do think
00:57:13
like podcasting YouTube like long-form audio where You can
00:57:17
really like get a sense of someone.
00:57:20
He's really the response to Twitter where people can just
00:57:23
like and cable news, which is terrible, you know, where you
00:57:26
actually hopefully get more of a glimpse into someone's Soul.
00:57:29
So I guess to the extent there, the rise of long form.
00:57:34
I mean you tweet Joe Rogan but like Joe Rogan that's like, I
00:57:36
think it's good for the world like, long form with people.
00:57:40
Listen to them. Joe Rogan needs to fact-check
00:57:43
stuff before goes on his show. Yes, it just tweeted.
00:57:47
Ridiculous or he just he they rented for 11 minutes about a
00:57:50
fake tweet that I cannot believe anyone would fall for it but
00:57:54
right on the show on the show him and Brett Weinstein, right?
00:57:59
Well this is the sort of low expectations like the genie.
00:58:02
I need to I need to Foster lower expectations for myself because
00:58:05
then if you clear them people you know it's all like what you
00:58:09
do relative to your expectations where nobody expects him to be
00:58:12
honored percent, right? Yeah, it's always what if they
00:58:15
say I always think of this to its Like under-promise
00:58:18
over-deliver, exactly. And I again, I yeah, I agree
00:58:22
with you Eric. I think long form and places
00:58:26
like podcasting where you can have a conversation, it just you
00:58:29
get a sense of who someone is, you know, a lot, right better?
00:58:33
That's not to say that misinformation can't spread all
00:58:35
the time on podcasts because it does.
00:58:36
I mean, Rush partisan bullshit comes out on podcasts.
00:58:39
Well, there's a very different thing between a podcast where
00:58:43
it's like back and forth and you're really trying versus
00:58:45
like, you know, I mean right wing You know, I used to listen
00:58:48
to Rush Limbaugh sort of as to know the other side and you know
00:58:52
there's no there was no search for truth there.
00:58:55
There's such a performance. So I'm not saying you can't feel
00:58:58
many many hours of audio content with like total manipulation,
00:59:03
but I do think the sort of conversational human podcasting,
00:59:09
a gives me some Hope For Humanity in 2023 good.
00:59:13
I love it. Great, you have a last word or
00:59:16
what? What do you mean?
00:59:17
It's excited about in 2023. That's that's the last word
00:59:19
inter. Well, yeah, my goal for 2020
00:59:22
three is to not. Yeah, it's to do more stuff
00:59:26
outside. That's more talking about the
00:59:27
stuff that I care about outside of Twitter.
00:59:29
I think media people are so on Twitter but my book comes out
00:59:33
this year. So that's like one big thing
00:59:36
October. I knew the headline, but remind
00:59:38
me extremely online. It's about the rise of the
00:59:42
attention ecosystem online, Creator world's kind of just
00:59:45
like how media. He became what it is great.
00:59:49
We will look forward to it. Thank you very much for coming
00:59:52
on the podcast. Thanks for having me.
00:59:54
Cool, great, yay. Okay, I was fine.
00:59:56
Oh my God, I was so fun. Goodbye, goodbye.
01:00:12
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye, goodbye.
01:00:14
Goodbye. Goodbye, goodbye.
01:00:12
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye, goodbye.
01:00:14
Goodbye.