Tom Dotan grills me on my trip to Miami during Art Basel. We talk about 500 Global in the shadow of 2017 exposé Dave McClure. We cover a potpourri of topics. I play my best Steven Pinker while Tom harkens back to his days as a digital media reporter. We talk about Max Read’s piece “Is web3 b******t?” and discuss the BuzzFeed public listing. (Ben Smith can finally sell his shares!) There’s even a brief discussion of the latest episode of Succession **spoilers** toward the end of the episode.
Get full access to Newcomer at www.newcomer.co/subscribe
00:00:05
Welcome. Hey, it's Eric here with Tom.
00:00:16
Welcome to dead cat. I just got back from Miami a
00:00:21
couple days ago. I was there for some of the Art
00:00:24
Basel stuff. I interviewed key through boy at
00:00:27
a The pre-money conference that was hosted by 500 Global wheat,
00:00:32
500, Global, by the way, like the renaming of 500 startups.
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What is? Yeah, they rebranded like, I
00:00:37
feel like everybody missed it. Sort of weird because I feel
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like 500 startups was so known but I think clear, I knew
00:00:46
exactly what that meant. Yeah, I think they're trying to
00:00:48
do more growth. I do think his strength of
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theirs is sort of that. They invest all over the world.
00:00:54
So there's how much I have to do how much of this had to do with
00:00:57
the mmm. Erosion of Dave McClure and
00:00:59
their need to, like, separate themselves from what he had
00:01:01
built. Yeah.
00:01:02
You really get right to it. I mean, he was definitely sort
00:01:05
of. I ask somebody, you know, like,
00:01:08
did he come up at their LP meeting because NLP meeting
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before? And it didn't seem like he was
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coming up explicitly. I mean, my sense is Dave has
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been buying out steaks in a bunch of 500 companies.
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So even though he's he wasn't there and his, you know, kept
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sort of at Bay. He's very much like in the
00:01:29
ecosystem, still. I think we're in this
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interesting point. I mean Katie wrote the stories,
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right? Yeah, it's a shame.
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She's not on today. By the way, we should tell our
00:01:39
listeners Katie at the last minute, had to bow out because
00:01:43
breaking news in the doj front around gerrymandering.
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So that's why it's just your regular host.
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Not an excuse, not not special guest.
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Yeah. Yeah.
00:01:51
I mean Dave, I don't know, I can't make the Declaration, but
00:01:55
I do feel like some of the lightly can't Salled people in
00:01:59
Silicon Valley, you know, I'm not going to be the one to beat
00:02:04
the drum that they shouldn't be able to.
00:02:07
That's a whole different topic. I was just wondering if the
00:02:09
renaming of the company had to do from them saying like, well,
00:02:12
look, that was his project. Yeah, clearly under flamed out
00:02:15
in a way, that doesn't reflect well on the brand anyway, but
00:02:19
Miami Miami. It was fun.
00:02:21
I mean, there was so much traffic, I tweeted about it at
00:02:25
afterwards, you know, that it was just like, Eating ubirr all
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day. Like everybody sort of saying
00:02:30
Silicon Valley should relocate to Silicon Valley, you know, one
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of the founders fund guys tweeted that in the you know,
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Miami mayor retweeted it like, I'm here to help.
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And then all these Miami people were arguing in my mentions
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about whether Miami really does have the infrastructure or not.
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I think many people don't think so, but beside besides the
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traffic. I mean, it was just, it does
00:02:55
feel like, You know, feels like the pandemics barely there.
00:02:59
I mean that's true in a lot of these sort of, you know, it like
00:03:03
resurfaces, every I know I'm not nobody care for roshi way.
00:03:06
You know, you me was every we're just over a year now from the
00:03:09
initial mayor of Miami tweet, how can I help that quote,
00:03:13
unquote, kicked it off, right? And that, at least technically
00:03:16
got these people out of their shells to start talking only
00:03:19
about tech in Miami. But the sense that I got talking
00:03:24
to people in December of twenty twenty, Bout.
00:03:26
It was like yeah I think they really liked it because of no
00:03:28
taxes and they don't really care about the pandemic as well.
00:03:31
I interviewed Keith, I mean and I prodded him a little bit on
00:03:35
this point. I mean, he basically says that
00:03:38
he and his Husband set like a threshold Point, unreasonable
00:03:42
taxes, you know. So they wouldn't move to
00:03:44
Virginia, but they were willing to move to places, you know,
00:03:48
they had more attacks, may be that in Florida and then they
00:03:51
sort of decided among that and I find that believable.
00:03:55
But yeah, certainly Only taxes are a big.
00:03:58
I mean, dude, add tons of exits. I mean, doordash went public a
00:04:02
firm, went public. I mean, he just, he has a lot of
00:04:04
money coming in. So, taxes, are top of mind,
00:04:07
right? That's the reason to choose
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Florida over Virginia, but the the from a pandemic standpoint,
00:04:13
everything's open. Everyone's just chilling, right?
00:04:16
I mean the hotel. Lobbies is so funny girl hotel
00:04:18
and like, you know, New York or something like that.
00:04:22
Where you're wearing the mask? And then Miami were there.
00:04:25
No mass in a hotel lobby. Bobby's.
00:04:27
I mean Keith was saying, you know, like he had to wear a
00:04:30
mask, you know, because like the 500 conference I'm sure they had
00:04:34
like some organizer. That's like parent, you know, he
00:04:36
had to wear masks briefly there and he was like, you know, I've
00:04:39
only had to wear a mask like, you know, in doctors offices or
00:04:43
something, you know, he's it goes against his message, a
00:04:45
little bit that nobody's making you wear a mask in Miami because
00:04:48
he had to wear it leading up to the speaking at the conference.
00:04:52
What would you say is the overlay between?
00:04:54
You know, the web three or To aficionados and the people who
00:04:58
are of no interest in like Health Department regulations
00:05:02
and suggestions on mask-wearing, I don't know that there's a
00:05:07
perfume. Okay, I mean, it's an
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interesting question. I mean there was, it was web 3.
00:05:12
I mean crypto was just ubiquitous and it was super
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interesting after the panel, you know.
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Some, some guy comes up to me and is I mean Super Earnest and
00:05:23
I, you know, I I think it's an interesting project and you
00:05:25
really do get get the sense that there's real, like brain power
00:05:29
behind some of these crypto projects in a way that's, you
00:05:34
know, reminiscent of, you know, social media, many many, many
00:05:37
years ago. No, or write or sort of the
00:05:40
on-demand economy economy more recently, so it gives me, I feel
00:05:45
like that alone gives me the most optimism about, the Crypt
00:05:49
smart people are working on it. But did you, I feel like it's
00:05:52
the responsibility of journalists going to these
00:05:54
conferences now to come back, From it with a changed world
00:05:58
view and perspective on the entire movement.
00:06:00
Like, you have to have some sub Natori article, which is there.
00:06:04
Like after four days here in which I talk to a dozen people
00:06:07
in a Lobby. I get it or I think this is the
00:06:10
greatest Folly. Like you can't come back from it
00:06:12
being like, well, some good, some bad.
00:06:14
Like it reminds me of, I mean, you wrote a thing about it so
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I'm sure you'll say it now but it reminds me of a couple of
00:06:19
years ago when you know what VidCon is.
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Yeah. Yeah yeah influencers.
00:06:24
Right. Yeah yeah.
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I mean the Creator Hammer went sir.
00:06:27
Yeah. I mean YouTubers started off as
00:06:30
mostly in Anaheim and there would be like a yearly column
00:06:34
coming out from reporters being like oh I get it.
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My mind has been warped. I didn't understand how big it
00:06:39
was like, how important YouTube was there, right?
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That's true. Yeah, to a degree.
00:06:44
I mean we can we can talk about a different time round button
00:06:47
but either way, the point was that, like journalist had to be
00:06:49
like, you know, red pilled After they came back from these
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things. And so is that is that you?
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I mean, because you came in necessarily skeptical.
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So yeah, I'm not as I'm pretty bullet.
00:07:00
Would you have gone if you weren't asked to interview
00:07:01
Keith, how about that? No, no.
00:07:03
And I mean, they paid for my flight and I mean, it was good
00:07:06
to go. I mean, what your I was help
00:07:08
you. Thank you for the disclosure.
00:07:09
It's fine. I know, I mean, but I'm glad I
00:07:11
went, I mean, they set up the conference during sort of Art
00:07:15
Basel. Honestly, I don't even know what
00:07:17
like people were in town for our bezel.
00:07:19
So I could see a bunch of people but it's not like, you know, I
00:07:21
saw public. But I wasn't really proactively
00:07:24
like going to galleries or whatever.
00:07:26
So it's funny for me to claim I was at Art Basel and really I
00:07:28
was at this sub conference. Anyway totally beside the point
00:07:32
but the other tangent I wanted to go on was just the point that
00:07:35
I feel like there's this interesting thing where writers
00:07:38
are getting pushed back for being open to crypto at all, you
00:07:43
know what I mean? Push back from who though, I can
00:07:45
never tell. It's just like they tweeted out
00:07:46
something. Vaguely positive about the
00:07:49
movement will like a see a platformer.
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It seemed like Like, you know, he rationalized in people sort
00:07:55
of got angry with him and the Kevin ruse piece in the New York
00:07:58
Times where he sort of gave a very descriptive descriptive
00:08:03
coverage of an FDNY. See it felt like he got pushed
00:08:07
back for that. And Ryan Broderick has been
00:08:09
writing about this. I mean, it just feels like
00:08:13
people are very, you know, a certain set of like leftist
00:08:15
types online or just like trying to combat sort of media Euphoria
00:08:21
about a And but it just like it's fun.
00:08:24
I mean, I think it's smart to like sort of tease out sort of
00:08:28
the promise, you know, without promising that something's going
00:08:31
to happen. The leftist part of it is kind
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of strange to me because, you know, most of the people that I
00:08:37
talked to about it will make like a very Collective argument
00:08:40
about the value of it, right? I mean, decentralization is
00:08:42
supposed to push away from Monopoly and is supposed to push
00:08:46
away a concentration of Power by a few Tech firms.
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So you can argue whether or not that's like to the benefit of A
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leftist movement and the idea of like, well, I mean, but crypto
00:08:55
is trying to financial eyes. Everything, you know, in some
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ways, the enforcer free and now they want everything to have a
00:09:03
price. But, you know, looking at it
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from another perspective, people are producing content for free
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and not getting paid for it. That seems super unfriendly to
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workers. You know, if we found out
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creative ways that people could own the things that they create,
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I don't know. That seems fairly Progressive to
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me, it seems like it's a pretty, it's a pretty Easy Elysian
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between what crypto and decentralization offers and what
00:09:27
like a leftist worldview would agree to.
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Like it doesn't seem like it has to be at odds with excited for
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the fact that there is financialization behind it and
00:09:35
it does create like a market behind everything, right?
00:09:38
And a sign of your financial value at the core, a lot of the
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people talking about web 3 and crypto are just like, very
00:09:44
hopeful that coins that they already own or going to go up in
00:09:47
value, right? Actual utility of them is pretty
00:09:50
secondary and is more of a marketing.
00:09:52
Marketing channel to inflate the value of their Holdings than
00:09:55
anything else. I think that's a true obvious
00:09:58
obviously true critique. And then lots of people going
00:10:01
into starting, companies around these coins, or n ftes, or just
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seeing that you can get the money before you do the work,
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which is, you know, obviously just like a huge incentive for
00:10:12
fraud and failure. So I think that's all true.
00:10:15
I just think they'll be successes despite that explain
00:10:19
to me your your disagreement with Max reads.
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Is because I read it just before we started recording and his
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argument is essentially what he was just trying to do like an
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explainer almost of like, here, we are trying to create a
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framework, right? Right.
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And basically, he was saying web 3.
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You can either say you agree that it is a revolutionary new
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form of what, you know, the internet and Community online
00:10:42
community can offer, or you can say it's just pure hype and it's
00:10:46
pushed by people like Andreessen Horowitz and other big money to
00:10:50
investors that want to see it coming.
00:10:52
To action like into reality because that as investors would
00:10:56
benefit them. And then his take was basically
00:10:59
like, what if you just don't want to have to engage with it
00:11:02
at all? Essentially, well, I think he
00:11:04
was floating the possibility that you could be bullish, on
00:11:10
web three, not because you believe in the technology but
00:11:14
because you believe in the power of Silicon Valley, to make it
00:11:20
happen through economic and cultural, Troll power and
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basically was trying to separate the idea of bullishness
00:11:29
bullishness and bearishness from like, you know, a Raw versus
00:11:34
like a skepticism or moral approbation about the
00:11:38
technology. And so he's ruining was that he
00:11:41
can hold a position that he thinks web 30 is going to
00:11:44
matter, not because it's a great technology but because firms
00:11:47
like Andreessen, Horowitz can make it happen and then he can
00:11:50
say he's skeptical, How about the value of web 3 and why we're
00:11:55
sort of being led along the path to it, right?
00:12:00
But and your and your disagreement with it as that
00:12:02
Tech fundamentally can't force something like they can't make
00:12:05
fetch happen. Yeah.
00:12:05
They're not. Because they're right.
00:12:07
They're not. I mean they're rich but like
00:12:09
again you know the piece sort of concludes with the point my
00:12:14
rebuttal, it concludes with the point that, you know, they tried
00:12:17
this with Clubhouse. You know they tried to bring all
00:12:20
the power. They could all the Cultural
00:12:22
power money, you know, whatever to make it work.
00:12:26
And it seems like it's struggling as Insider is written
00:12:29
and that really like the power of technology and this has been
00:12:33
my position, you know, for most of my time now, covering Silicon
00:12:37
Valley that the power of these Tech billionaires is the actual
00:12:40
platforms. They control that the actual
00:12:43
technology itself is super powerful.
00:12:45
That, you know, people are addicted to their phones, that
00:12:47
can't give it up people complained, the very people
00:12:50
reporters who, Complain about technology are extremely
00:12:54
addicted to it. And the only thing that will
00:12:56
replace their current addiction is a better technology that you
00:13:01
know, is even more powerfully manipulative of our psychology.
00:13:05
And so whether web three matters are not is really a function of
00:13:09
whether it's a better technology than we have today.
00:13:12
And whether we're, you know, psychologically hooked into it
00:13:15
more completely than whatever we're using today that it
00:13:18
replaces right, either more addictive, or it solves a
00:13:21
problem. That we are trying to solve and
00:13:25
and the solution is elegant and useful useful by the masses.
00:13:28
But also I think that people give too much credit to the
00:13:33
individuals like a great man of History, within an industry, to
00:13:36
be able to push a specific technology or movement sink like
00:13:41
like Facebook was going to happen whether or not Mark
00:13:43
Zuckerberg existed right there was you know with the ad you
00:13:48
know advents of I mean on the fucking internet.
00:13:51
I mean just people. We'll be able to wanting to
00:13:53
connect with each other and then really what makes it take off in
00:13:55
a hugely valuable way is, you know, the shrinking of computers
00:13:59
to handheld devices. There was just an obvious Next
00:14:02
Step that, like, within these devices, people are going to
00:14:04
want to connect with each other, on the backs of the
00:14:07
infrastructure of the internet created.
00:14:09
I don't think whether or not, you know, Excel put money into
00:14:12
Facebook that many years ago. Would have forced this to happen
00:14:15
one way or the other when it wouldn't have.
00:14:18
I agree with that. The only thing I think you agree
00:14:20
with this is that all Silly them.
00:14:22
Once it happens given the power of network effects, Mark
00:14:25
Zuckerberg personally is extremely influential because he
00:14:29
happens to control this technology.
00:14:33
That's hard to replicate a billion times over because
00:14:36
people only want to join so many Network.
00:14:39
So while he may have been the one to move first, if he hadn't
00:14:42
somebody else might have done it, it's still super.
00:14:46
He has a lot of control over it. Now, because of how its
00:14:48
centralized think about all the failed products that Facebook is
00:14:51
put, Doubt that if they've hope to redefine the company in the
00:14:54
past, right, right. Like all the different apps that
00:14:56
they build, that they put out, that no one even remembers
00:14:58
anymore. I think we agree.
00:14:59
I'm just saying, if the in apps, where they succeed to build the
00:15:03
core features, that make them work and become addictive, and
00:15:08
useful, and all that, there are lots of sort of secondary
00:15:12
decisions that don't sort of really change that one way or
00:15:15
the other that them Mark, Zuckerberg has the power to
00:15:17
influence be. Here's my question to, which Max
00:15:20
starts to deal with a little bit He links to a few other articles
00:15:23
that I found interesting like by Adam Davidson who's like a big
00:15:26
crypto bowl or web three Bowl right now, which is like, what
00:15:30
is the need to ascribe morality to this technology right now?
00:15:33
Like whether or not it's good or bad that seems to be like
00:15:36
underpinning. A lot of the arguments is that
00:15:37
like it's not enough to say. I think it's bullshit because I
00:15:41
am, you know, this is my take or I'm taking a stance on the
00:15:43
future but also like and it is a bad thing.
00:15:46
What if you like people hate the the tech fatalism which is sort
00:15:49
of what I'm talking about, which I used to Scoff at, when I came
00:15:52
it's into Silicon Valley, which is just sort of, if the
00:15:56
technology is good, people are going to adopt it.
00:15:58
There's really nothing you can do.
00:16:00
I mean, that that's a morally neutral thing.
00:16:03
I think is understandably disturbing to some people, but I
00:16:06
just think having giving it a moral layer and saying it's
00:16:10
terrible. You're just not going to be able
00:16:12
to scold enough people away from working on a technology that
00:16:17
people then can't resist right back to the Miami Conference.
00:16:22
How did you kind of gauge the optimism there?
00:16:24
Because because that to me has been like the most compelling
00:16:27
aspect of web, three Beyond. Like just you know, the
00:16:30
complications of its intrinsic value is like as the people that
00:16:33
are working on, it really think it's going to be a great thing.
00:16:35
And I feel like all the optimism and Silicon Valley that had
00:16:38
once, been funneled toward, you know, whatever social media or
00:16:42
self-driving, cars or name, the next advancement seems to have
00:16:45
coalesce uniquely within within web 3 or crypto whatever you
00:16:51
want to call it. And I mean, you can be cynical
00:16:53
to that and say like, you know, these, you know, fucking blue
00:16:56
skies, don't know what they're talking about.
00:16:57
And, you know, they've just found a new thing to be wrong
00:17:00
about or naive about. I find it kind of interesting.
00:17:04
It's like, well you know, we can we can embrace them element of
00:17:08
the optimism and it did it seem like, a, particularly optimistic
00:17:10
crew out there? Yeah, it's definitely more
00:17:13
optimistic. I mean, you'll hear the fucking
00:17:15
good morning thing, right? Like it's baked into the
00:17:17
ideology and I do think, you know, people would say short of
00:17:21
shutting. Running the progressivism allows
00:17:24
them to be less you know self-flagellating more
00:17:26
optimistic and that's certainly with the sort of Keith strain
00:17:31
would say about Miami. I mean, II I thought there was
00:17:35
an interest in, I talked about this in the newsletter just sort
00:17:39
of Two parallel panel universes, you know, on the one hand,
00:17:45
Balaji srinivasan spoke. He was, you know, I guess you
00:17:49
would put him in the optimistic. He spoke by video conference.
00:17:52
Not only by videoconference, you made it sound very
00:17:54
cloak-and-dagger. He was in an undisclosed
00:17:56
location. You know, it was just sort of
00:18:02
like, you know, I don't know, there was nothing.
00:18:04
It was just funny because he's yellow, where is a docks
00:18:07
obsessed with. Yeah, exactly.
00:18:09
Privacy. And All that.
00:18:10
So yeah it fit in sort of his message but you know, even
00:18:14
though he sort of represents the camp that wants to be more
00:18:17
optimistic, you know, he's obsessed with whoa culture.
00:18:20
You know, it's very I mean, he has a fascinating framework
00:18:24
which she calls. BTC nyt and CCP, you know,
00:18:29
Bitcoin New York Times Chinese Communist party, which to him
00:18:33
represent, you know, sort of different extremes on the
00:18:36
political map and he doesn't, it might sound like, He's in BTC,
00:18:40
but he professes to want to be in some, some midpoint between
00:18:45
those. But but anyway, my point is, you
00:18:47
have sort of Balaji talking about wokes, you have keys or
00:18:50
boy talking about like pattern-matching, you know, and
00:18:54
and clearly from his Twitter, you know, and he's he's donating
00:18:57
to Republicans, you know, he's just he's very much not with
00:19:00
sort of the leftist political movement and then you have these
00:19:03
other panels where it's like you know you have diverse VCS and
00:19:07
you haven't sort of the Miami locals who are all talking
00:19:09
about? About including Miami residents
00:19:12
and all that and sort of much more Progressive politics, and
00:19:15
it did feel like they existed in sort of toe to Total different
00:19:20
universes. Which were not really required
00:19:23
to reconcile or fight with each other.
00:19:27
But we explain to me more about ballot is this bulge, he's still
00:19:30
talking about his issue with the New York Times as, you know, a
00:19:33
misleading organization that is anti-tech.
00:19:36
And yeah, it's not okay. Right.
00:19:40
I mean, it still seems like a ranking.
00:19:42
There's like at the top BTC like that is like a lawful good and
00:19:47
New York Times the chaotic easy. CP is about control, you know,
00:19:51
it's sort of the fascist and then in terms of democracy, you
00:19:54
know, see he actually explains a well.
00:19:58
I mean, the thing is, the guy is smart, like I'm not discounting
00:20:02
him at all like and I actually, you know, I think he's more
00:20:05
interesting than most people he blocks me.
00:20:08
So now I have to go to incognito.
00:20:10
Um, to find the Tweet because he blocked had it wired.
00:20:13
He blocked me because I reached out to a friend of his for an
00:20:16
interview request with him and that be members of the media.
00:20:19
You're right. He faced he has to go direct,
00:20:21
but there is a, you know, hypocrisy that it's like, oh,
00:20:25
you have to go direct except to the people that he would,
00:20:27
theoretically, it could reach directly.
00:20:30
Yeah. Directed to get to Jim.
00:20:32
Just just the idea that people think that you can profess to be
00:20:35
a freethinker while blocking people because they just asked
00:20:39
interview. It's not like I Bullying him to
00:20:40
enter you know, anyway, communist Capital CCP, you must
00:20:44
submit. Whoa, capital N YT.
00:20:46
You must sympathize crypto capital B.
00:20:49
TC, you must be Sovereign. And so, he thinks they're all
00:20:53
different forms of ice control. I will read that, I don't know
00:20:57
why, but I just got interested by his explanation.
00:21:01
I love open, invitation apology to come on the show, be well,
00:21:04
now he's going to block me. Yeah, I don't think he had, you
00:21:06
have it, you have a desire to engage with his views, right?
00:21:09
Like, Actually I just I just feel like these people don't
00:21:13
want to be in a situation where they really have to not even
00:21:16
from like a debate me sort of like Ben Shapiro versus, you
00:21:19
know, but just like somebody who isn't already on your team who
00:21:23
genuinely wants to sort of dig apart.
00:21:27
Like, what, what do you mean by this assertion?
00:21:29
Like what are the limits? Well, it's funny that he blocked
00:21:32
to, I don't want to spend too much time on this because I
00:21:33
think too much power, but like it's funny that he blocked 24.
00:21:36
It wasn't that you tweeted at him, right?
00:21:38
You reached out through like an Flying connection.
00:21:41
And that was enough for him to be like a fucking gun.
00:21:43
And now, we almost proximate thing.
00:21:45
You know, I'm sure I mentioned, but it's sweet.
00:21:47
It's other piece with these people in general, which is that
00:21:50
they want to carry out their grievances entirely through
00:21:53
Twitter, right? That's what I mean about the
00:21:56
parallel panels right there in great conflict on the internet.
00:21:59
But then in real in the real world, you know, it's like these
00:22:02
very nice sort of that was the funniest thing about, you know,
00:22:06
Flash from the past the clubhouse.
00:22:10
Where they got chaise a boot in the San Francisco FDA on there.
00:22:13
And you know, complete softball interview where he just walked
00:22:16
all over 90. Giving a point of view, one of
00:22:19
your better posts, thank you. And then supposedly near the
00:22:23
end, you know, David Sachs was going to come in there and
00:22:25
really you know, fuck shit up by posing some hard questions to
00:22:28
him but it never happened. It was real like, you know, hold
00:22:30
me back bro. Like NBA violating David Sachs
00:22:33
could have done? Well.
00:22:34
Yeah, I'm sure these guys could like I think they know those
00:22:37
guys were not ready but David. Well, is good, we'll never know.
00:22:41
Now until like, you know, trailer puts it up.
00:22:44
If he likes to monologue, I feel like in the all in how you
00:22:48
listen to all and I not lately but really I want to be on
00:22:51
record saying, I think it's not a terrible show.
00:22:53
We're very envious, they're climbing.
00:22:54
I mean, they're like Jason tweeted to detail our test for
00:22:57
your points of view or another subject but like to save tons of
00:23:00
production. Yeah.
00:23:01
You know, strictly? Yeah.
00:23:02
Another time. But every time they every time
00:23:06
they actually are confronted with the object of their
00:23:08
derision and Yeah, I'm sure the panels were are very friendly,
00:23:12
and even that all in podcasts, they obviously Clash a lot.
00:23:15
But, you know, it's like for rich guys.
00:23:18
Nobody is really the left wing of the democratic party.
00:23:21
I start, I'm still impressed that he blocked, you just for
00:23:23
reaching out to to, to want, to talk to.
00:23:25
It's going to be like oh you shit on him and I but that was
00:23:29
how I, you know, I can't ask him, you know.
00:23:32
Like I always think it's a reporter.
00:23:33
Like what's the worst that can happen if I just reach out to
00:23:35
the guy and like to be honest that is a fairly low end of the
00:23:38
spectrum. The other end of it is Like, oh,
00:23:40
they're going to like publish the emails that I sent try to
00:23:43
talk to them which does happen not infrequently.
00:23:47
From kind of unhinged people that you're trying to talk to
00:23:51
they push away. Push all G is interviewed, as
00:23:53
has Paul Graham has blocked me since I interviewed him at the
00:23:57
information. So 2014, when you wrote that
00:23:59
story, that would put the information on the map, we can
00:24:03
link to it in the show description.
00:24:04
So really stick the knife in, as your commitment to that piece,
00:24:07
he is not blocked to me, but I unfollowed him because I I've
00:24:10
done like a Twitter cleanse, I've decided I should only use
00:24:12
the app to further my stories and journalistic.
00:24:16
Career, did you want to talk about Jack Dorsey a little bit?
00:24:19
I mean, we're getting a little further from it, but sure sure.
00:24:24
Jack Dorsey lost a job and changed his other jobs.
00:24:28
I don't know. Parent company objective.
00:24:30
I don't know how you do you explain it in one week.
00:24:33
I mean, talk about PR strength. Yeah, he had a great
00:24:35
Thanksgiving. I feel like, how do I change the
00:24:37
narrative from the fact that I'm not going to CEO of social media
00:24:42
company. I run.
00:24:43
So the stories that have come out since about his stepping
00:24:46
down was that this was like the long gestating, you know,
00:24:49
accomplishment of Elliott management that like, when they
00:24:53
break and they bought their activists position a couple of
00:24:55
years ago, even though they supposedly reach the daytime,
00:24:58
like, the wheels were still in motion behind the scenes, like
00:25:00
to oust him. Well, they got a board seat and
00:25:02
they sent growth expectations, which they were never get to it.
00:25:06
It wasn't going to me, right? I mean, nobody expected this.
00:25:08
I mean, I don't cover the beat Beat that closely but it didn't
00:25:11
seem like the Twitter reporters were, you know, trying to chase
00:25:15
this down. I mean, I'm not in a newsroom
00:25:17
anymore, but I didn't get the sense that this was something
00:25:20
that's super Savvy. Insiders were anticipating.
00:25:24
It's just more like we want to let the world know that we're
00:25:26
very crypto blockchain first, that's as far as it goes, right,
00:25:30
it's like if we're a financial company then you know, the
00:25:33
future is all about this. And so we need to change our
00:25:36
name, which I actually kind of get.
00:25:38
I mean it seems silly. It's a very influential pool.
00:25:41
I mean, clearly there, there have been a number and you
00:25:44
probably know more about this than me.
00:25:45
But there have been a number of social networks over the years
00:25:47
that have used Twitter's graph to try and build out networks,
00:25:52
right? I mean, people like steal it,
00:25:54
but sure, I mean, there was the whole live video phenomenon from
00:25:57
like 2015 companies like meerkat and Periscope, they bought.
00:26:01
And so it's like you have. I mean, this is sort of what we
00:26:03
were saying earlier with Zach, right?
00:26:06
If you get a product that works that people want to work, then
00:26:09
it can Take off. And obviously, they have the
00:26:11
audience to build off of. They just haven't figured out
00:26:16
anything, that's truly, yes, or no viral, right?
00:26:18
But that's, there's a difference between, you know, monetizing an
00:26:21
audience much better and actually growing to a much
00:26:24
larger one, like one is a product issue.
00:26:25
The other one is a business issue and from like a business
00:26:28
standpoint, they've been successful in growing their,
00:26:34
they basically built a business off of telling large Brands.
00:26:37
Look, if you want to be where the conversation is happening,
00:26:39
you Advertise on Twitter and so like a huge amount of their
00:26:42
revenue comes from like Samsung announcing a new phone release
00:26:46
or like movie studios pushing out, like, the release of a new
00:26:49
film is like event based advertising, but they had done a
00:26:53
really poor job, getting like direct-to-consumer stuff.
00:26:56
You know, like the Click based advertising that Facebook and
00:26:59
snap. Another People are cleaning up
00:27:01
on because that's not the way people use Twitter, but they
00:27:03
were making a lot of money from it.
00:27:05
But again, that's so like, you know, if you look at their
00:27:07
finances or like their business over the last couple years,
00:27:09
Pretty good. I do think I'm developing this
00:27:12
view but I I I think there are lots of sort of random
00:27:17
regulations that would make more sense than, you know,
00:27:21
anti-monopoly regulation that's sort of where I've, I'm
00:27:24
personally building to and it does feel like we could have a
00:27:28
law that says social media companies need to stop
00:27:32
maximizing. They can't try to get users to
00:27:36
stay on their apps for more than after an hour.
00:27:38
They need to start. Putting up barriers to them to
00:27:41
want to stay on like they need to distance and you know it
00:27:44
looked just like it was like cigarettes or something, you
00:27:47
know, just like you put a warning on the packet you know
00:27:50
there needs to be sort of you've been on this for a long time or
00:27:54
a literally you have to slow down sort of the dopamine hits
00:27:57
or whatever, you know II do think there's.
00:28:01
So I my point with the story is, obviously maximizing for time,
00:28:06
spent in the app can get extreme and they are hacking.
00:28:09
In human psychology. And there are things that
00:28:12
governments could do to say without breaking up companies or
00:28:16
even attacking companies. Just say, hey, we don't think as
00:28:20
policy people should spend more than an hour a day on social
00:28:24
media and they're allowed, but you should discourage them and
00:28:27
you're not allowed to hack their brains, if they did, well, China
00:28:30
is probably the best example of that right now.
00:28:32
Right? With esport are much more All or
00:28:34
Nothing. Yeah.
00:28:34
You know, yeah. Which is funny that, you know, I
00:28:36
guess the app that typifies like the most addictive just Your
00:28:40
dopamine, you know, injecting app is also, you know, built in
00:28:44
a country where they've taken the most Hardline approach to
00:28:46
like certain levels of computer addiction with Esports.
00:28:50
Does this all connect though to Kevin ruses piece?
00:28:53
From what was that last week? We're just talking about, like,
00:28:55
the need for Silicon Valley. Founders to try to reinvent
00:28:59
themselves or like focus on only future oriented projects to kind
00:29:03
of like get their groove back. Yeah, we could talk about that.
00:29:06
Yeah, no, I mean, I think that's, that's the the direct
00:29:08
connection between the two. Right.
00:29:10
It's like we've seen Jack step aside, you know, Mark with the
00:29:12
metaverse. I don't know what would like the
00:29:14
third thing that would make it a trend?
00:29:16
But basic well I think everything to do with crypto
00:29:18
right now, the Google co-founders.
00:29:19
I mean literally Sergei was founding like flying car
00:29:23
companies, you know they've if it doesn't worry about a year
00:29:26
ago I mean they've been away from the day-to-day for a bunch
00:29:28
of years now like you know Jack and well I mean I guess Jack I
00:29:33
don't know that. That's a tough comparison, I
00:29:35
think. But the core idea is that they
00:29:37
just want to seem focused on the future.
00:29:39
Rather than as the stewards of the present, right?
00:29:42
Because the present stocks and the hope is that they Kate does
00:29:45
it. I think this presents good and
00:29:47
we need to stop saying sucks but that's like a very long
00:29:51
argument. Okay?
00:29:51
Steven Pinker. I mean, I think they're point is
00:29:54
that, you know, for them, they are more hated than they've ever
00:29:57
been in their lives, rise Executives.
00:29:59
So from that perspective, their present sucks, but if they can
00:30:02
help craft a future that is, you know, full of the optimism that
00:30:06
we were talking about earlier. I mean, you know, that's just a
00:30:09
purely kind of Cynical aspect of it.
00:30:10
I think they also just believe in it and want to like Focus
00:30:13
their attention and time on it but that was that was like the
00:30:16
core of his argument, right? Is that like Silicon Valley is
00:30:18
looking for things that it can it can rally behind.
00:30:23
It's a kind of re-engage. The positive spirit that like
00:30:28
built the industry and like built their interest in it basic
00:30:30
Facebook's are should just shut down for a week and insist that
00:30:34
they're never going to come back up and just see what all the
00:30:36
like takes would be, then people would still fucking hate well
00:30:39
that Conspiracy theory of like when the right I was down right,
00:30:43
remember that? That shitty documentary that
00:30:45
came out like 10 years ago called the day without Mexicans.
00:30:49
I'm aware. If it was basically like this is
00:30:52
how, you know, our economy, our labor depend.
00:30:55
Yeah, like our country and all its ways would cease to exist
00:30:57
because, you know, we all the Mexicans literally.
00:31:00
It's very yeah. I don't know how well it would
00:31:03
do if it came out now, but like, I guess the version of that
00:31:06
would be like a day without Facebook, right.
00:31:08
I mean like, what, what do you people do?
00:31:09
Do you don't even realize like how which would that benefit
00:31:12
them that much? I mean that was a not well, the
00:31:14
people fundamentally want it more than they don't.
00:31:17
And it would at least reframe sort of what this to be really
00:31:22
is. Yeah, I mean, that's it does
00:31:23
sort of feel like there's a sort of shut it all down, you're
00:31:26
playing well a Sprite and you're playing with fire with that.
00:31:29
If you're the company because at the same time, I mean this was a
00:31:32
number of takes that came out after the Facebook outage was
00:31:34
that like they're actually way too powerful think about how
00:31:37
things cease to function and people couldn't Communicate with
00:31:40
their families and ND on WhatsApp because it wasn't
00:31:43
working. Well, it would, I mean, this
00:31:46
goes back to sort of the thing we open this conversation with
00:31:49
which is just if it's the case that we're like like the
00:31:52
Technologies are inevitable, if they work, right?
00:31:54
That sort of idea was what we sort of opened up talking about.
00:31:58
And the question is is it because they hack our brains or
00:32:02
because they're better in a, genuine way and we prefer to use
00:32:06
them and it's sort of a hard debate to have Have when we have
00:32:10
access to the thing that could be hacking, our brain, right?
00:32:13
So if Facebook goes away, we spend a month living without it.
00:32:18
We do Bunch this studies and people are like, actually we're
00:32:21
happier or we're not, you know, I mean it is sort of like I'd
00:32:24
like to run the I mean I guess we could do it without shutting
00:32:27
down we just but I'm sure there's this research now.
00:32:30
I'm just sort of a junior level psych researcher.
00:32:34
Now realizing this is very testable but but it does feel
00:32:37
like Yeah, I do. We do, we prefer.
00:32:41
Are we happier with them? Or, I don't know this becomes.
00:32:45
What do you do? I would say, why do scientific
00:32:47
research and we can just have anecdotal, first-person columns
00:32:49
from reporters talking about, like I spent a month without any
00:32:52
Facebook. Here's how I felt which, I feel
00:32:55
like, inevitably those articles always end up saying, I was the
00:32:58
same person or I didn't really feel any different.
00:33:01
I remember wired. I think it was wired a couple
00:33:03
years ago, did one, where some person tried to live without
00:33:06
email for a year? He was the full on fucking
00:33:10
internet. I'll look it up, but either way
00:33:12
I do remember the conclusion was like I ended up being the same
00:33:15
person. I always was and I mean, part of
00:33:17
the problem and I think this is why you would want to see an
00:33:21
experiment with it. All shut down is just given that
00:33:25
we live in a world where everybody else uses it, giving
00:33:29
it up, as much more difficult, because we're social animals and
00:33:32
people shame you for not being easily accessible.
00:33:35
But if the technology is just gone, Then everyone has to
00:33:39
adjust and maybe that adjust radius is half, right?
00:33:42
Because you're in with, you're just living on the outside of a
00:33:45
party if it's just, you would have to be Universal, right?
00:33:49
IE10 to think they're happier with it, but I do think
00:33:53
Tick-Tock is very addictive and I would like to spend less time
00:33:58
on it, but you would be amazed mean if you take it off your
00:34:00
phone, how little you use of it? I mean it you know because
00:34:03
there's an example of like you know living on the backbone of
00:34:06
another platform like I only consume Tick-Tock through
00:34:10
Twitter, you know, when people post a video of it all like I
00:34:14
like you deleted it or you never had.
00:34:15
I had it for like a month. I was it was it was killing me.
00:34:18
Like I was just spending, I should delete it.
00:34:20
Your yeah, I would just wake up like at 6:30 and just sit in bed
00:34:24
until like eight. Just going through videos not
00:34:27
entirely on Tick-Tock but yeah, no, I mean it's the promise.
00:34:30
I'm not a happy, I do something fucking guy, enjoy some of them.
00:34:34
I do get a little sense of the culture, I like it.
00:34:38
But it is not deep meaning you know, they I there I guess there
00:34:42
is some part of me that's like oh there's value in Tick-Tock
00:34:46
but I guess never never more on a permanent basis than just like
00:34:50
reading a book. Would have you want to talk
00:34:53
about BuzzFeed? Sorry.
00:34:54
I kind of cut off the tick tock tock but I mean, you're the one
00:34:58
who needs to have takes, I'm sure of takes, but what's the
00:35:00
central observation on BuzzFeed? Well, so BuzzFeed for our
00:35:04
listeners had its first day of trading on the NASDAQ Actually,
00:35:08
so it's tech company and it didn't go very well in its I saw
00:35:14
somebody was holding a sign on the listing.
00:35:17
Thank God, we didn't get acquired by waste our.
00:35:19
Do you see that they had like behind Jonah Peretti look, some
00:35:22
BuzzFeed. Exactly.
00:35:23
Just sort of a joke. I assume he asked the company or
00:35:27
the company told him to do and it was meant to make them seem
00:35:30
like quirky. So on Friday, in which they had
00:35:33
the man I'm going to fuck this up it on Friday.
00:35:35
There was like a process in which they basically figured
00:35:37
Whether or not the investors who had put money into the spec
00:35:40
vehicle, we're going to leave their money in there in advance
00:35:44
of its first day of trading and basically a shitload of
00:35:47
investors pulled their money out, meaning that the initial
00:35:50
200 plus million dollars that were sitting in.
00:35:54
You know, the shell company ended up being around like 15
00:35:58
million dollars. So like the cash that
00:36:01
theoretically what did they want?
00:36:03
Well they wanted 200 plus million.
00:36:05
I mean you know that was the cash that was sitting.
00:36:07
Inside this, you know, shell company that yeah.
00:36:11
It's terrible, right? So yes they did not get we
00:36:13
obviously it's part of a general Trend.
00:36:15
That's pipes have been right where oh pipes have been
00:36:18
difficult. So getting the and they didn't
00:36:20
have a big pipe, right? That's part of the issue.
00:36:22
These pipes have been bad and then redemptions have been
00:36:25
banned, right? So then you get public with very
00:36:27
little cash from there for the transaction.
00:36:30
Which I mean they did Issue a convertible note so, you know,
00:36:33
there's obviously a lot more strings attached to it than just
00:36:35
like the cash that comes from a merger.
00:36:37
But you know, they do have I think like 150 or something
00:36:41
million from that note. But no like this was not a huge
00:36:45
financing event that you would typically see with an IPO so far
00:36:49
as that goes like big fucking with.
00:36:50
But now you know it had its first day of trading it closed
00:36:54
down so that's not great and it's not a great market right
00:36:58
now. So I don't think it's going to
00:37:00
get better anytime soon, it's going to be pretty rough for
00:37:03
them would be my like, short-term Outlook.
00:37:05
And I have no idea who would like a Fire them.
00:37:08
Well, I think the point is that they're going to be acquiring.
00:37:10
Other companies like, like, Jonah's going around doing
00:37:13
interviews with Peter Kafka and, you know, the New York Times and
00:37:16
a bunch of other places, not us. Who were they acquire?
00:37:19
I mean, clearly, like people talked about a Vox BuzzFeed
00:37:23
merger you up on succession. By the way, I watched it.
00:37:26
I watch like it. Ever merger of equals, right?
00:37:28
Exactly. Who is he supposed to be Mojo?
00:37:33
The CEO of the I assume he's supposed to be an Elan type, but
00:37:36
running a very different Okay, but I think it's like Elon, plus
00:37:39
Daniel Eck. It was my take.
00:37:41
I mean the the company I think is supposed to be like it's a
00:37:43
video streaming service but also has like sports rights and
00:37:46
bedding. So it's like a mixture of like
00:37:48
Spotify and like does own and maybe a little bit like Draft
00:37:53
Kings or Barstool. I don't know.
00:37:55
I don't know how, right? It seems like clearly Eli's that
00:37:58
I mean you know as not exactly what him like tweeting stuff out
00:38:01
that would have liked material effect on the stock price and
00:38:03
doing drugs and sort of being like A great honor manure,
00:38:08
right? Right, we should anyway.
00:38:10
Yeah we can have a when the succession finale of succession
00:38:13
episode would be fun. Oh yeah, after the finale, we
00:38:15
can do on. Did you read the New Yorker
00:38:17
article? Yeah, I read it right before
00:38:18
this, it was pretty crazy. Yeah, well, oh my God.
00:38:21
Spoilers spoilers okay, spoilers, but do you think
00:38:24
Kendall don't know? I don't, I just think that would
00:38:27
be bad story writing and they're pretty good about that on the
00:38:30
show. So, I mean, I think he's like
00:38:32
clearly hit some sort of rock bottom, but like to have one of
00:38:35
your Central character dies. Go to Sarah Jo actually.
00:38:38
Sorry. That's my girlfriend was
00:38:40
analyzing. I actually sort of think the
00:38:43
opposite that would be bad storytelling not to kill him
00:38:46
because it would just be like what he's going to be waking up
00:38:48
in the water just like a total. Fake out is lame for show in a
00:38:53
network. Certainly that's supposed to be
00:38:55
sort of cool and legit. I don't know, I guess I think
00:38:59
they've teased it. Like, I mean obviously teasing
00:39:02
is almost too weak of a word. I mean he's flirting with
00:39:04
suicide clearly throughout the show.
00:39:06
And then symbolically, there's been a lot of suicide stuff.
00:39:10
But who would BuzzFeed acquire? I mean, the list is increasingly
00:39:15
small. There are companies that they
00:39:17
were supposed to be merging with in the past, like, group 9.
00:39:20
That's the one with the layer, right?
00:39:21
Right. They own the Dota or yeah, I'm
00:39:24
sorry. It's the dodo, it's thrillist.
00:39:26
It's now this news or what. Now this.
00:39:30
Yeah, it's a collection of sites like a holding company this icy
00:39:34
way less about them. Yeah.
00:39:36
Because only the election was, yeah, I mean, they hate it.
00:39:39
They were like a big deal the time because they didn't have a
00:39:41
home page, you know, they existed only as like a media
00:39:45
company that on other platforms. So I'm Tom is the expert in
00:39:49
digital media used to cover a lot.
00:39:51
What happened to Mike by the way?
00:39:53
Well they went under I mean they got acquired by bustle.
00:39:55
We can talk about that with Brian.
00:39:57
The mic story is actually kind of a Ryan Goldberg.
00:40:00
I'm sorry come on sorry we want him on.
00:40:02
We run them right? That's not a promise.
00:40:04
He's coming. Yeah it seemed like him.
00:40:06
Come on, Mike basically ran out of cash after they lost a
00:40:10
Facebook video deal and sold desperately and very meekly to
00:40:15
Mike for like, under 10 million dollars when they were like,
00:40:18
capitalized, a friend who work there.
00:40:19
They seem like the worse. Now, comic is used to talk to
00:40:23
those guys a lot, but they flamed out, I mean, it was just
00:40:27
a bad business. Ultimately, and they, you know,
00:40:30
their last, they basically were in the way that like, you know,
00:40:33
Madmen like the firm was entirely reliant on.
00:40:36
Lucky Strike cigarettes. Hmm.
00:40:37
They were hugely reliant on this deal with Facebook for a video
00:40:41
show when Facebook watch was like, throwing out money left
00:40:43
and right, and Facebook, cancel their show, and that was it.
00:40:46
And so, they sold to bustle for, not a lot of money.
00:40:49
I think they are still a website, like they do publish
00:40:51
things but they're like a shell of themselves.
00:40:54
But yeah, it's another one of those Brian Goldberg buys a
00:40:57
company, like, basically off the trash eat situation so that,
00:41:01
that was them. So, you're smart.
00:41:02
You're not buying that smart if there's any value to them.
00:41:05
I mean, he did this. With Gawker, I think TBD on
00:41:08
whether there's value there but I feel like they haven't really
00:41:10
been cutting through. Well The Gawker thing is funny
00:41:13
to me because I read their articles.
00:41:16
Like I think they're good and smart but it's like you know
00:41:20
they also bought this company. The outline, remember them that
00:41:23
was Josh to post these site. We also sold for like Pennies on
00:41:26
the dollar like he works now for Brian but the outline is dead as
00:41:32
a site but basically they relaunch Gawker and like
00:41:35
stylistically. It's The same exact thing as the
00:41:37
alpha life. So basically like he bought the
00:41:39
outline. Shut it down bought Gawker, try
00:41:41
to relaunch it and just made it the outline which was already a
00:41:44
failed business, so I don't. But I mean obviously the content
00:41:48
matters way more than the design.
00:41:49
It's more. The content is more like, well,
00:41:52
I thought the content on the outline was good but The Gawker,
00:41:55
but they're very different style.
00:41:56
Not really, I mean, I sort of really you think it's like the
00:41:59
LIC, the new Gawker is like, very reminiscent of the.
00:42:02
I mean, the Allen had reporting. There were reporters that I
00:42:05
worked with. Keep that came from there.
00:42:07
So, there's maybe that elements of it but like the kind of hip
00:42:10
and smart takes on. Any number of things going on in
00:42:13
the world, I just think the truly like fiery, like
00:42:16
dangerous. This is going to really takes
00:42:19
these days would flirt with like fighting with woke people and I
00:42:23
don't think Gawker wants to do that, right?
00:42:26
Well that I'm not fighting with woke people right there on their
00:42:30
team. Whoa, yeah more than which like
00:42:32
is so so like that's what the President's party is you're just
00:42:37
like very much like on the side of like the dominant culture
00:42:41
like what's sort of like cutting about that.
00:42:43
That's where the New York Times. I don't know.
00:42:45
I've read a bunch of articles on Gawker, that I think are great.
00:42:48
Like I thought there were really well.
00:42:50
Written pieces. Probably burned by Freelancers.
00:42:52
I like the piece about Brian Goldberg, like the whole like,
00:42:55
there was a good day one that right at a strong day one, I
00:42:59
read them. I just don't see the reason to
00:43:00
exist. I don't you know, the number of
00:43:03
sites that BuzzFeed would want to buy is Small and none of them
00:43:07
are actively trying to sell themselves to BuzzFeed.
00:43:09
So there's Vice, there's Vox. And then there's group 9, the
00:43:12
group, 9 deal has been tried multiple times, and it keeps
00:43:15
getting abandoned. I think it would be like a
00:43:17
complete mess cap, table wise. And then there's Vox which has
00:43:22
no interest in selling, they think they're a much better
00:43:24
business. The BuzzFeed.
00:43:26
They probably want to go public through like I don't know.
00:43:28
This is like a year out of date information, but there was talk
00:43:31
about them. Just pursuing a traditional IPO
00:43:35
a year ago. Go and then Vice how well can
00:43:38
Vox be doing? Like I just I think they're just
00:43:40
a better run business, just Jim bankoff.
00:43:42
The CEO is like a more responsible spender of money
00:43:47
than Jonah was is what people tell me.
00:43:50
So I yeah, I that's the argument that people close to the company
00:43:55
made at the time but you know, like you gotta like, eventually
00:44:00
you have to show your numbers back to Jonah, BuzzFeed like he
00:44:04
is wanted to go public A long time.
00:44:06
Like I remember back when I was at the information 2017 or
00:44:12
something, he did a panel interview with Jessica and me
00:44:16
and he was talking about like the value in going public is not
00:44:19
just to, like, prove to yourself that you're a publicly traded
00:44:21
company but like, you know, the virtues of being public or good
00:44:25
for any business, which is like showing profit forecasting
00:44:28
numbers. It's so embarrassing.
00:44:29
How long the these companies can promise that they're going to go
00:44:32
public? Because every outlet that gets,
00:44:35
it gets another Other headline, buzzfeed's thinking about Ryan
00:44:38
talk like anchors and right. And then it's just like, it
00:44:41
never happens there. No consequences.
00:44:44
It's just like, yeah. If I ever start a business, I'm
00:44:45
just going to tell people, I'm going to go public and two
00:44:47
years. Well, it's the true at the time,
00:44:50
you know, get-out-of-jail-free card that every journalist use
00:44:52
it though was in his heart of hearts, you know, true that he
00:44:55
said it at the time, but like I think they really, really, I
00:44:58
think they were, I mean, I don't know.
00:45:00
I never broke any stories about it, so I didn't have good
00:45:03
reading on it. And there was lots of
00:45:04
disagreement because NBC is their Shareholder and there was
00:45:07
huge. Disagreement, NBC about what the
00:45:09
actual value of BuzzFeed was. I mean there were people I
00:45:11
talked to the thought it was worth like at a time that you
00:45:14
know, NBC valued at it like 1.7 million post-money.
00:45:18
There are people inside and BC the thought was worth like 600
00:45:20
million or something. So that whole investment is
00:45:24
fascinating story, that no one's really written.
00:45:27
Would you would you think about, by the way, the BuzzFeed Union
00:45:30
action as BuzzFeed, was dese packing.
00:45:34
I mean, I got it's a little touchy talking.
00:45:35
Out Union stuff. I'm in the midst.
00:45:37
I know that's why I brought it up.
00:45:38
That's what's good content? I mean, I would say the fact
00:45:43
that they haven't gotten their contract ratified yet is
00:45:45
probably incredibly frustrating to the union, like they voted a
00:45:48
year and a half ago, you know, to form a union like the the
00:45:52
staffers voted for it. So like there's a incredible
00:45:55
internal push. The fact they haven't reached
00:45:57
and go like we're in negotiations.
00:45:59
Now, I can say that with our owner to figure out a contract.
00:46:04
I think it was like, Opportunity for them to publicize the fact
00:46:07
that they haven't gotten a contract ratified, but also I
00:46:10
think it kind of maybe overrated, like I think they
00:46:13
were trying to make some like public demonstration that like
00:46:16
look this company's doing so well.
00:46:18
They're about to go public and yet they're unwilling to strike
00:46:21
a deal with it, so yeah, exactly, that's insane.
00:46:25
I was like, no, your come, you need to help your company do
00:46:27
well soon, get anything like, so they can do to example, take the
00:46:30
Union exist in, you know, competition with the success of
00:46:34
BuzzFeed as a company, but I do think Think if they were trying
00:46:37
to sell a message that like look at these fucking fat cats that
00:46:39
are going public now. And yet they're unwilling to
00:46:41
meet our meager demands as a union is like yeah it's not that
00:46:44
kind of an IPO guys, right? Yes, I couldn't agree with you
00:46:48
more that. Yeah, that's exactly.
00:46:50
That's what I want you to say. Yeah, it sort of makes sense
00:46:54
when they look when BuzzFeed looks wealthy.
00:46:56
But when they look beleaguered then it's sort of like oh man
00:47:01
and their employees. Give them a hard time.
00:47:03
Like what's this company? Even work.
00:47:05
I think that's the Other problems right now.
00:47:07
I think they can deal with that. They clearly managed to get by
00:47:10
even with employees. You know.
00:47:11
Not having a contract for it's like over a year that they
00:47:15
agreed to that, they voted to unionize but like, I don't know
00:47:18
to me like, BuzzFeed going public, I use this analogy a
00:47:21
lot, but I think it's follow me with this until this makes
00:47:24
sense, but to me, BuzzFeed going public is kind of like when
00:47:27
Conan O'Brien host of The Tonight Show which is like it
00:47:30
was something that he'd wanted to do for his entire career like
00:47:34
since he was a kid but like watching Johnny And he's like, I
00:47:36
really want to host it tonight show and like through an
00:47:38
unbelievable collection of events in his life.
00:47:41
He actually did, you know, host a late night show that came on
00:47:43
after The Tonight Show and then the host of that show left and
00:47:46
like, holy shit, they made him the host of The Tonight Show,
00:47:48
and then he got there and he was a fucking nightmare, you know,
00:47:51
right. It's like the ratings were
00:47:52
plummeting, like he was the last person that like The Tonight
00:47:56
Show as a concept has like crumbled.
00:47:58
It's no longer this like monolithic cultural institution.
00:48:01
It's just like one of many things that now basically exists
00:48:05
as like YouTube, Yes, that's a couple years down the line but
00:48:08
like so Conan gets there and it's like he probably cared more
00:48:10
about it than anyone else did. And it's useless now and I kind
00:48:14
of feel it's the same thing with BuzzFeed.
00:48:15
It's like Jonas wanted to go public for so long.
00:48:18
He thinks it's like a great you know and to a degree it is like
00:48:21
it's a great accomplishment for a company to be you know traded
00:48:24
in that way. And yet like now what do you do?
00:48:27
Like you're here and you're now you know stuck to the whims of
00:48:30
investors and you know reporting quarterly and you you are having
00:48:36
to be compared to much more profitable companies like the
00:48:38
New York Times and people figure out your multiple.
00:48:41
You can't wave, you know like Tech.
00:48:43
You know, magic dust around your company's mission statement and
00:48:47
claim that you should be valued at a higher multiple.
00:48:49
There's no media companies that have gone public in the last.
00:48:52
I can't even think of the last Media company that went public.
00:48:55
Like, what do you do now? Jonah, I don't know.
00:48:58
It's it's not, there's no easy answer to it.
00:49:01
My my concluding thought on this is that hopefully soon, we In
00:49:06
put to rest, my least. Favorite genre of story which is
00:49:11
when will bend Smith divest his BuzzFeed shares.
00:49:15
So that his New York Times column is ethically sound and
00:49:20
more than Town people written that.
00:49:21
I'm like well I care too many. It was late.
00:49:25
Then why I didn't advise her Gawker didn't think someone or
00:49:29
something. Yeah, is oriented.
00:49:30
So they just they just drive me insane.
00:49:32
It's like yeah. It's also just I mean Yeah the
00:49:36
media ethics purity of it are just like there's so many, I
00:49:41
don't know. That's a whole can of worms.
00:49:42
Yeah well I hold no shares a newcomer LLC so I can speak
00:49:47
freely about the value of that company.
00:49:50
The you're probably have like I mean this is exactly the point.
00:49:53
You probably have clearly it's in your interest in newcomer
00:49:57
does well. Like, even if you don't own
00:49:59
shares, I mean, they're all sorts of biases that people have
00:50:02
outside of exact shares and like, is he really not going to
00:50:04
want BuzzFeed? To do.
00:50:06
Well, if he doesn't own shares anymore, like, I don't know.
00:50:10
But isn't it? Don't you love the point where
00:50:12
you're talking to an ex-employee, at a company on
00:50:14
background and their shit, talking it and then they're just
00:50:17
like, look, I'm a shareholder still.
00:50:19
So I would like nothing more than to see this company do well
00:50:22
but it like it hurts me to see what's going on there right now.
00:50:25
It's like yeah, I'm sure it really hurts.
00:50:27
You you're talking this much? Should they think that by
00:50:30
talking shit about it? They're going to get the change
00:50:33
they want which will make I want every Source.
00:50:35
I think that By the way, I think that's the most pure form of
00:50:37
source. And I never wanted this to be
00:50:42
for serious, serious accusations of wrongdoing and things like
00:50:46
that. I do believe that's the case,
00:50:48
right? A certain number of people, just
00:50:50
aggrieved. Why I feel like we covered a lot
00:50:53
of ground in this conversation. So we'll see.
00:50:56
We'll see what makes it all out in the end, but good.
00:51:00
Good catching up after a long. Sorry, about the long Hiatus
00:51:02
listeners being off for a week and a half, but we're going to
00:51:05
go back to our A regularly scheduled weekly Cadence.
00:51:08
We're now trying to publish on Tuesdays.
00:51:10
We're not swearing up and down yet.
00:51:12
We get about this will be good, we'll try, we're
00:51:15
professionalizing, you know, right?
00:51:17
Right and Katie will be back soon to.
00:51:20
So anyway, thanks for listening and we'll see you guys all back
00:51:23
here next episode. So if I'm Valerie, So work on
00:51:37
Sally, goodbye. Goodbye.
00:51:46
Goodbye goodbye, goodbye. Goodbye.