New York Times reporter Erin Griffith returns to the show to catch us up on what’s been going on with the Elizabeth Holmes trial. To the surprise of many, Holmes took the stand to defend herself. Griffith updates us on her lunch, the politics of queuing outside of the courthouse, and Holmes’ legal strategy.
At the 33:40 mark Katie Benner joins hosts Tom Dotan and Eric Newcomer. We talk about Andreessen Horowitz crypto partner Chris Dixon’s anti-media tweets and Bloomberg Businessweek’s story on Marc Andreessen and Ben Horowitz purportedly slowly stepping back from their eponymous firm. We touch on leadership drama at Instacart and talk about fancy restaurants, including the viral review of Bros., Lecce.
Get full access to Newcomer at www.newcomer.co/subscribe
00:00:05
Welcome. How's it going, everybody?
00:00:14
Welcome back to dead cat. This is Tom here.
00:00:16
I'm with Eric and returning Champion.
00:00:19
Our first time. Second appearance on the show,
00:00:22
Aaron Griffith of the New York Times.
00:00:24
Welcome back, Aaron. Thanks for having me.
00:00:26
That's quite an honor. Yeah, before we get into the
00:00:29
specifics of the trial itself, Aaron is, of course, covering
00:00:32
the theranos trial for the New York Times.
00:00:35
Gavel to gavel. She's all over it.
00:00:37
I want it. I understand there's a bit of
00:00:39
breaking news from you because last time one of the big
00:00:42
discussion or topics of discussion that we had was what
00:00:45
you were able to eat, like just how you were able to find time
00:00:49
and the answer was actually incredibly depressing but it did
00:00:52
get a lot of attention. So it sounds to me that there's
00:00:55
been something of a development in terms of your break and
00:00:59
eating habits at the trial. Can you fill us in on what's
00:01:01
going on there? Yeah, so, yeah.
00:01:04
So this is This is really important and I'm glad that
00:01:06
we're getting a, you know, out of the way right at the top of
00:01:08
the episode. So I've stopped eating the
00:01:11
Starbucks sandwiches on principle.
00:01:13
It's just too depressing and I've also now in all of them
00:01:17
like enough times that like I can't anymore.
00:01:20
So I bought a giant box of Luna bars that I think I am just
00:01:26
having I have them in my purse at all times and so now I don't
00:01:29
have to leave for lunch because often I'm trying to file because
00:01:32
we're now filing kind of daily stories and to bring it.
00:01:35
For everyone. I have shared some with our
00:01:38
reporting fellow Aaron. Woohoo has been down there with
00:01:40
me for some over just within the times.
00:01:42
You don't give excellent protocol or anyone else.
00:01:45
Everyone else is like packing. Their own peanut butter and
00:01:47
jellies or something. I haven't gotten that advanced
00:01:51
yet. So yeah I'm just after this
00:01:53
trial these, these specifically the lemon ones I'm never going
00:01:56
to be able to eat another one of probably eating like 50.
00:01:59
So we are in the homestretch of the trial.
00:02:01
Yeah, the prosecution has rested their case.
00:02:03
Why don't you actually summarize for Us what the prosecution's
00:02:07
case, essentially was like how did it, how did it, you know,
00:02:12
what was like its strongest point that it was trying to make
00:02:14
to the jury? Yeah.
00:02:16
So the prosecution at the start outlined I think six or seven
00:02:20
areas of alleged fraud and they pretty much went through all of
00:02:25
them with almost every count. So there's eleven counts to of
00:02:31
conspiracy to commit wire fraud and nine of water fraud and
00:02:35
they're all tied to specific investors or patients.
00:02:41
There's like I think a couple patients that are in there, one
00:02:44
got thrown out and then one related to like an ad
00:02:47
advertisement purchase and so the areas of the fraud, our
00:02:53
military, she lied about their not having military contracts.
00:02:59
I'll see pharmaceutical company. She lied about like their
00:03:04
relationship. Chip in their work with
00:03:06
pharmaceutical companies. The Walgreens rollout she
00:03:10
they're alleging that she lied about how well that was going
00:03:13
when she knew it was falling apart and telling investors
00:03:15
they'd be you know National and thousands of stores.
00:03:18
When in fact they weren't there's the financial
00:03:20
projections climbing fairness is going to have a billion dollars
00:03:23
in Revenue in 2015 when it had like almost zero and and and
00:03:27
those were actually even given to investors.
00:03:29
I feel like the end of the year in like October, so they knew
00:03:32
they were nowhere close. And then there may be a A couple
00:03:35
other ones but those are those are the ones that I've paid
00:03:39
closest attention to. And throughout all of it, they
00:03:42
have to show that she intended originally defrauded.
00:03:45
So they're also constantly tying all of these claims to her
00:03:50
directly basically showing her. Oh, I forgot.
00:03:53
Sorry. Let me go back.
00:03:54
The lab. She knew the obviously that the
00:03:55
tests weren't working and that she told people that the third
00:03:58
party devices that they had modified third-party devices
00:04:00
instead of using their own proprietary technology.
00:04:03
So anyway, they have gone. Through and basically lay it out
00:04:07
that entire case, which they had previewed in the beginning.
00:04:09
And I think they've pretty much delivered on on most of that
00:04:12
stuff. And then, of course, the defense
00:04:14
has worked, very hard to debunk it, right.
00:04:16
We'll get to that in a second, but when you bring up Elizabeth
00:04:19
herself, and what she knew or didn't know, I mean, it's one
00:04:21
thing to mislead investors, but another thing to do it
00:04:24
knowingly, and in some way provably, you know, do it while
00:04:30
telling yourself boy, I'm really pulling a fast.
00:04:32
One on everyone here, right, right.
00:04:33
Her whole defense is that Is naivete.
00:04:36
Could you kind of explain to me a little bit about, you know,
00:04:39
the guilty mind aspect of it and how the prosecution has been
00:04:42
trying to make the case. That not only did she mislead
00:04:44
people but she did it knowing that what she was doing full
00:04:47
well was not legal. Yeah and so this has been a big
00:04:51
part of her testimony. So are the cross examination of
00:04:55
her because until this until she testified all the evidence for
00:04:59
that part of it was circumstantial, you know, they
00:05:01
have to show that she knew about this by showing she was told Old
00:05:05
or by seeing emails that she cc'ed on, you know.
00:05:10
But now with her on the stand, the prosecutors can just really
00:05:14
Hammer her on like, but you knew this was wrong, you knew, and
00:05:18
because you knew that fairness test were struggling you and so
00:05:22
they did that over and over and just like so repetitively.
00:05:26
Like one of the ones that stuck out to me was around the
00:05:28
military. You know, they asked her like
00:05:32
ten different ways. The same question like you knew
00:05:34
that their nose Vices were never used in Afghanistan.
00:05:36
They were never used in the Middle East.
00:05:38
They were never on a Medevac. They were never used by the
00:05:40
military, like just like ten different times in a row.
00:05:42
So, the jury, like, clearly gets the point.
00:05:44
She knew that this stuff was never being used and she's
00:05:48
trying to split a hair and claim.
00:05:50
I never really exactly specifically kind of told
00:05:53
investors that I hinted at it and they jumped to their own
00:05:56
conclusions. She was obviously very prepared
00:05:58
for the, the, you know, defenses questioning.
00:06:01
She had all her answers ready with the cross.
00:06:05
She was pretty prepared and she did a lot of, I don't know, I
00:06:10
don't recall. And so she had like, a crystal
00:06:13
clear memory for all questions, asked by her lawyers and then
00:06:17
when the prosecution asked, she's right kind of funny how
00:06:19
that works. She said no a lot to a lot of
00:06:22
their questions that were leading and then she would kind
00:06:24
of like try to split hairs and be like well you know so she
00:06:28
sent this, Roger par La Fortune article that had a lot of
00:06:31
incorrect information in it, out to investors as promotion.
00:06:35
And they're using that as part of their argument saying like
00:06:38
you knew this was wrong and yet you still sent it to investors
00:06:41
and never said it was wrong. And she is say, you know, she's
00:06:46
trying to like basically say, well, I didn't I sent it to them
00:06:50
and I said it contains some information about their nose,
00:06:54
you know? So like selected.
00:06:55
And I thought, yes, yeah, exactly.
00:06:57
She's trying to she's kind of trying to do that around a lot
00:07:00
of things. And like with parle off, you
00:07:02
know, she told him where She told him, like we can do all
00:07:07
these tests and we don't, she didn't.
00:07:10
She told him that she didn't say, we don't by third-party
00:07:13
devices. She said, we do all of our tests
00:07:16
on our own machines that are proprietary.
00:07:19
And I didn't tell him like the difference because it's a trade
00:07:22
secret. And so, there's just been a lot
00:07:25
of, like, kind of weaselly. And so it would seem hard for
00:07:27
any, it would seem hard for any, like, rational jury to see that
00:07:31
not as bright, navigating your personal lives, like, dealing
00:07:34
with Liars, like, Like they're few Liars that just want to get
00:07:37
caught out right in line. They would much prefer to let
00:07:41
you come to beliefs that are useful to them.
00:07:43
Like, yeah, I'm still busy with Coach to say things like that
00:07:46
because I just feel like the concept of lying and a liar is a
00:07:49
very broad-based accepted like people have a visceral reaction
00:07:53
to someone doesn't matter if you understand the industry or not,
00:07:56
people have like a spidey sense of like, if this person is lying
00:07:59
to me, I don't like that person, you know, people related to like
00:08:01
their jobs or their family members and I think the defense
00:08:05
has Has countered that with two things for one.
00:08:07
They've had her admit to mistakes.
00:08:11
So they've tried to like make her more credible by saying.
00:08:14
Oh I regret the way we handle the Wall Street Journal article
00:08:17
or I regret the way that we dealt with Erica Chang or I
00:08:21
regret putting those logos on those pharmaceutical documents.
00:08:24
If I had known that they were misleading, so they're trying to
00:08:27
get credibility there and they're just trying to
00:08:30
complicate things. So they, you know, know this is
00:08:34
a jury of late. People who are not super
00:08:37
well-versed necessarily in the inner workings of Finance
00:08:40
business technology science. And so like I think if they just
00:08:46
make it really complicated and then they make it seem like
00:08:49
homes, you know was just a little bit confused or maybe
00:08:52
Miss keep miscommunicated and other people didn't like
00:08:55
understand her or they wanted to believe other things than, like,
00:08:59
maybe it was just really complicated and a
00:09:01
miscommunication, a big piece of it is how much Like her Co Sunny
00:09:07
new verses, which she knew right?
00:09:09
She's blamed a lot of it on him. I mean that's that has been a
00:09:12
tour. Yeah, I want to actually want to
00:09:15
back into Sonny for a bit because of that kind of speaks
00:09:17
to sort of the emotional elements of her testimony,
00:09:20
right? I mean, so it may be just
00:09:22
rewinding for a bit. Let me set it up a little bit
00:09:23
better. I remember for in following you
00:09:25
in a few other reporters on Twitter when the prosecution
00:09:27
rested and the defense began, you know their case was it an
00:09:32
open question whether or not Elizabeth Holmes was going to
00:09:34
testify because So just from the tweets it seemed like you guys
00:09:37
were all very, you know excited. I was shocked.
00:09:41
I mean, really the whole time we've been speculating, will
00:09:44
she? Or will she not testify and all
00:09:47
you know we've all quoted experts saying like why it's a
00:09:50
huge risk and why she shouldn't or why she wouldn't or why?
00:09:53
It's so rare and white collar crimes for the defendant to ever
00:09:57
testify. And, you know, that on the other
00:09:59
hand, people are like, well, she's a big risk taker and this
00:10:02
is part of her defense or lawyers have said she's going to
00:10:04
testify. I am like this is her best shot.
00:10:08
And so anyway I everything about this trial has been
00:10:11
unpredictable and so it definitely came as a surprise.
00:10:14
To me particular did you find out?
00:10:16
Well, I was sitting in the courtroom, it was the very few
00:10:21
of the days have gone. All our of the weeks have gone
00:10:23
all five days but it was for whatever scheduling reason five
00:10:27
days in a row, I was exhausted. It was 3:00 like one hour before
00:10:33
court was about to be out. Out and like I know other
00:10:37
journalists were thinking of leaving.
00:10:38
I was like do I need to really need to stay?
00:10:40
Like this is pretty boring like the defense's argument had not
00:10:44
so far. They had had like, a former lab
00:10:46
director and and like a paralegal from their own Law
00:10:50
Firm testifying. And then, you know, we're all
00:10:53
like, oh, what's going to happen this last hour?
00:10:56
And then they called her to the stand and oh my God, I like
00:11:00
almost had a heart attack. It was absolutely not what I had
00:11:04
expected. You know, we had Paradise live
00:11:06
blog are like you know, sort of a live feed that we were going
00:11:09
to spin up just in case. Like I had a story pre-written
00:11:12
just in case but like I was not ready for it to happen at that
00:11:14
moment at 3:00 after the very at the very tail end of a super
00:11:18
long week. He should have to call her when
00:11:21
it's time, you would think they'd want to start the day
00:11:24
with her and have it be sort of finish.
00:11:26
I feel like it was almost a good way for her to like get
00:11:30
acclimated to the court. Like it was low stake.
00:11:33
They didn't talk about anything important on that.
00:11:35
At first, our it was just like getting her like, used to being
00:11:39
in the corner. That's smart.
00:11:41
I see it kind of like screwed the journalist though because
00:11:43
it's like, all right, I've been here all for three months,
00:11:47
almost every day and like, I should at least get some head
00:11:51
start on like, getting some exclusive information but then
00:11:56
like, so we got really nothing out of that first hour and then
00:11:58
Monday, of course, everybody flies in.
00:12:01
You know, everyone who has at the trial, right working
00:12:04
journalists Yeah, it sucks. We got no circus atmosphere that
00:12:08
had probably died down as people were like, man, trials can be
00:12:11
really boring and it's just like a recitation of documents and
00:12:15
all this other like oh here's the star witness, who is going
00:12:17
to be played by, you know, Jennifer Lawrence in a couple of
00:12:20
months. Yeah, she's showing up at like
00:12:22
325 on a, this is why the media is broken, you know, the
00:12:26
outlets, the put in the work. Yeah, this that's specifically
00:12:30
is exactly the crew system needs to write the local news cameras
00:12:34
that have been covering like shoplifting in San Francisco,
00:12:37
like, suddenly turned around and we're rushing down the
00:12:39
courthouse. There were a lot of Spectators
00:12:42
that I mean, cuz there's been a Spectators throughout, but there
00:12:44
are a lot of Spectators that day that left at lunch because it
00:12:47
was so boring. And I was like, no man.
00:12:50
It's like the people that were leaving Dodger Stadium in 89
00:12:52
because I thought the World Series was over right?
00:12:55
Right. Yeah.
00:12:56
Miami serious. Yeah, right.
00:12:58
So so but it seems that the core of her case Beyond just her
00:13:03
being naive. That she was a victim.
00:13:07
She was a victim of abuse and that she was being manipulated
00:13:10
by Sonny bhawani. Now, I remember like before the
00:13:13
trial even started, people were suggesting that that could be
00:13:15
one route that they take. I don't know if they probably
00:13:18
would have needed to call her if that was going to be the route
00:13:21
but totally but because their relationship was a secret.
00:13:24
And so really like she's one of the only people that can even
00:13:27
testify about it, right? They had, they had indicated,
00:13:31
they might do this in filings, so we had that preview, but it
00:13:34
was still on Open question, mark of whether not, she'd actually
00:13:37
go for it. I'm sure they're waiting to see
00:13:39
how everything else went before deciding.
00:13:41
Yeah, and just from the reading of it, it sounded like it was
00:13:43
fairly emotional. Like she went, you know, when
00:13:45
she took the stand it was describing, you know, her
00:13:47
allegations of abuse, she was crying, she was tearful and I
00:13:51
did that surprise you at all. I mean, obviously she's someone
00:13:54
who in the media has been depicted as like this kind of
00:13:57
stony-faced monotone. Baritone, you know, uncaring
00:14:01
unblinking person did she Blink by the way, when she was on the
00:14:04
stand? Yeah. and I made a joke once
00:14:07
where I thought I had noticed that she was like, Blinking a
00:14:12
lot while looking forward. And I was like, a she'd just
00:14:14
getting all her blinks out now. Robert like so she can then
00:14:17
stare when. But yeah, it's also a way to get
00:14:20
the tears going, not just as their crocodile tears.
00:14:23
She has made some intense eye contact and when the jurors were
00:14:26
walking in and out anytime she would try to individually, make
00:14:29
eye contact with each one of them.
00:14:31
My God maybe only one ever really looked up at her but yes
00:14:34
there's that one invested in her company that's in her, you know,
00:14:37
morning notebook routine, stare intently and to each jurors.
00:14:41
I mean, so one thing that came up that I thought was really
00:14:44
interesting in this argument about the emotional and physical
00:14:50
or sexual abuse that she that happened in her relationship
00:14:54
with Sonny about wani which to be fair.
00:14:55
This guy's 20 years older than her and he was like her business
00:14:58
mentor. And so, I mean, I think that
00:15:01
felt very credible to me that they had a lopsided dynamic in
00:15:07
their relationship. But doesn't necessarily didn't
00:15:09
really connect it very well to the actual fraud. but and so
00:15:14
that's going to be, I think the challenge for the jury but like,
00:15:19
one of the things I thought so interesting is like, so all the
00:15:21
investors that we've heard talk about how impressive she was and
00:15:25
how she was so put together and confident and like, you know,
00:15:28
unlike a 19 year old girl might be, you know, and that was all
00:15:34
because Sonny was coaching her to be like that he was basically
00:15:37
telling her and kind of he was berating her but he was also
00:15:41
telling Her like don't say awesome, don't giggle, don't
00:15:44
like, you know, put your hands in your pockets, don't gesture,
00:15:47
you know, he was like really kind of like pushing her to
00:15:52
present herself that way. And it worked.
00:15:55
How old was she for some of this?
00:15:57
Well she she met him when she was in college.
00:16:00
So like 1819. But then when During the period
00:16:03
of the alleged fraud, she would have been in her 20s.
00:16:06
Late 20s early 30s. Okay.
00:16:08
But I mean, some of the investors met her In like the
00:16:11
early 2000s when their nose had first started.
00:16:14
So they were testifying about all the way back at that point.
00:16:17
Like the Don Lucas's is, it was it a son or nephew anyway?
00:16:22
Yeah, so Insider we ran a piece I Believe by Adam Le schinsky
00:16:27
saying that her taking the trial and the tenor and pitch of her
00:16:32
testimony turned the tide that basically it's suddenly been
00:16:37
suddenly became because she made it about her.
00:16:40
A victim. And a lot of the most devious
00:16:43
acts of the company's life, were the result of, you know, the
00:16:47
Svengali Sunnyvale wani that she was merely a naive and innocent
00:16:51
bystander or like a puppet for the true evil.
00:16:55
That was, I mean what, what did you bought into this now?
00:17:00
He, yeah, let's this is going to be an IT situation where Eric
00:17:03
screams at me, I did not read the story, but the headline of
00:17:07
the story, I read the story I'm Adam with his writing has been
00:17:10
good. Yeah.
00:17:11
So I don't want you to make Adams case for him.
00:17:14
But what do you think about at least that idea that, you know,
00:17:17
suddenly the momentum shifted entirely towards the defense, I
00:17:21
have no idea what the jury is thinking and so I that's one
00:17:26
part of it that's challenge. But I do think it kind of
00:17:29
upended the dynamic, for sure. I mean, this has been a very
00:17:33
long, very tedious white collar crime case about business and
00:17:40
And Tech and Science, and it's just been like so in the weeds
00:17:44
and now we have this, extremely emotional narrative injected
00:17:49
into it. Like, it's hard, not to only
00:17:51
focus on that. And I feel like the jury is
00:17:54
that's going to be at the heart of a lot of their discussions.
00:17:57
I'm on, or maybe they decide to throw it out, I don't know.
00:17:59
But like, well, that and actually to me when the
00:18:03
prosecution has said, they plan to file a motion to throw out
00:18:06
some of that, because they did not the defense did not bring in
00:18:10
an Expert testimony or expert witness to testify as to the
00:18:14
relevance of it, to this fraud case.
00:18:18
Don't you want to throw things out before the jury hears,
00:18:21
right? They can't.
00:18:22
Yeah, they can't like, this is even if they remove it, it's not
00:18:27
like the jury can like special emotional case, right?
00:18:30
I mean, like, it's one thing to material fact.
00:18:33
It is kind of the same as like when the when they ask
00:18:35
questions. They know they're not allowed to
00:18:36
ask, and then they it gets objected.
00:18:39
And then the judge says, okay. Ignore that it's like, well,
00:18:41
they already heard it. And that's kind of like a little
00:18:43
bit of a slimeball move but they vote will science.
00:18:46
Have definitely used it. Okay.
00:18:47
Sorry. This is a very basic question,
00:18:49
but like Elizabeth and Sonny are both on trial in this case or
00:18:54
they are separate cases. No, sonny is separate has a
00:18:58
separate case separate trial that will start next year.
00:19:00
They were they should have been tried together but they got
00:19:03
their cases. Severed.
00:19:04
And part of the reason that they argued for successfully for it,
00:19:08
was that she said she can't be in the same room as him.
00:19:10
Him because of this abuse. And I mean it kind of works the
00:19:15
both of their advantages because they might be able to both get
00:19:18
off by blaming each other. But they're they're both very
00:19:22
important and relevant in each side's case because it want to
00:19:27
of the charges are conspiracy. And so they conspired together
00:19:31
and we're seeing all these text messages where they're allegedly
00:19:33
conspiring. You know when you contrast it
00:19:36
with her being able to answer these very specific rapid-fire
00:19:40
questions Like yes, yes, yes. And from her lawyers and then
00:19:45
and so a lot of the actually the prosecution has done a lot of
00:19:48
hammering her on the I don't know.
00:19:49
Like he'll say that's your testimony.
00:19:51
That this is your inhale, repeat it back to her.
00:19:53
This is your testimony. That you don't know this thing.
00:19:55
And I mean, we'll see if that if that would be infuriating to
00:20:00
watch. I mean, it's just but it's
00:20:02
interesting. I mean, it seems to me like most
00:20:04
of the defense's case is that she was a victim.
00:20:07
Not that an end if she misled people was only because Does
00:20:10
that is the nature of raising money where you have to Project,
00:20:14
Blue Sky Futures in order to get people excited about it and if
00:20:17
it doesn't work out you know, don't hate the player, hate the
00:20:20
game and and does she seem like a cult leader like just you have
00:20:25
a reality Distortion field or she seems.
00:20:27
She's trying to project being a little bit more me core.
00:20:29
How much does it seem like you could see why a bunch of
00:20:33
investors were wooed by her. I mean when you when she is gets
00:20:39
a question that she liked Sure that she knows the answer to.
00:20:42
She does this thing which I think you can see on any video
00:20:45
interview of her back in the in the Heyday where she like nods
00:20:50
and makes this really sincere eye contact and like has this
00:20:54
like kind of like kind of weird smile and yeah you can see how
00:21:01
it's like very practiced and it's like it.
00:21:04
You can see how it's compelling especially for people who want
00:21:07
to, you know, believe in what she's pitching.
00:21:09
I think it could also be be off-putting, knowing what we
00:21:12
know. Now, you're not about to join
00:21:14
her call. You're like, right, it's either
00:21:16
like charming and effects. It's a thin line between
00:21:19
charming and effective in a sociopath.
00:21:21
Yeah. It's kind of like, when customer
00:21:22
service people are like, like, handling, you, with kid gloves
00:21:25
and you're like, just just do think your name over and over
00:21:27
again? Yeah, stop doing that.
00:21:29
It's like really off-putting. Let me give you the money,
00:21:32
Elizabeth. How's the jury doing?
00:21:35
What's your sense? Just this many weeks into this
00:21:38
whole thing. I know there was a bit of drama.
00:21:40
Leon people wanted to take vacations.
00:21:43
What did we talk about the sodoku player?
00:21:45
I don't think so about halfway through one of the jurors was
00:21:49
dismissed for playing sudoku during testimony.
00:21:53
One of the other jurors knocked her out and they had she her
00:21:57
excuse was that she's like very fidgety and she needs to like
00:22:00
have something to do with her hands.
00:22:02
And so it was just to keep her occupied.
00:22:04
Did that'll play out during the trial, was there just like that,
00:22:07
you know, like a teacher calling out a students like, what do you
00:22:09
have there? No.
00:22:10
They did it in the judge's Chambers and so we didn't find
00:22:13
out about. We just heard that a juror was
00:22:14
dismissed and we didn't find out about it until it came out later
00:22:17
and the transcripts and she was like, very apologetic and she's
00:22:20
like, I'm swear. I'm taking this seriously.
00:22:22
And, and essentially the both, the sides, agreed to just let
00:22:27
her go. I must be mortifying to tell
00:22:30
your family, you've been gone for like or you're not gone.
00:22:33
But, you know, your things you wanted to crochet, but like that
00:22:37
seemed inappropriate. Do they let you do that.
00:22:40
No, I don't think. I mean, no.
00:22:42
I think that would be worse. Probably there goes the book
00:22:45
deal. But okay, so we lost one for
00:22:49
playing sudoku but generally, I mean, what's your senses to
00:22:53
their energy level, you know, this many weeks and I would just
00:22:56
be flagging, like, I couldn't pay attention.
00:22:58
I know it's crazy and they seem like they seem engaged, but it's
00:23:02
so hard to tell, because they have masks on, and they really
00:23:05
are not reacting to anything. And like, there's either all
00:23:09
taking notes, There is one guy who likes top proceedings and
00:23:13
like, waved his arm and we're like, oh no, what's happening?
00:23:16
And oh, his pen, ran out of ink. And so like, somebody had to
00:23:19
bring a pen over to him. And I'm like, man, I mean, so
00:23:23
they seem they seem pretty engaged.
00:23:24
I don't know. Sometimes I look and I'm like,
00:23:27
is that person sleeping, but their exhibits are below them.
00:23:30
So I think they're just looking at the exhibits, but I don't
00:23:32
know, man. It's, it's impressive.
00:23:34
When the judge was planning the timing for the rest of the
00:23:38
trial, like, I thought I would be in court today.
00:23:40
A and yesterday and you know, most of next week.
00:23:44
And for some reason, closings aren't starting until like a
00:23:47
full week after the prosecutor, the defense rested and the jury
00:23:52
is, they're like, oh yeah, we're fine to deliberate on Christmas
00:23:56
Eve. We don't care.
00:23:57
Like they don't seem like stressed which is kind of crazy
00:24:02
and impressive, so forth. When's this thing gonna get
00:24:05
wrapped up or I hope Before Christmas?
00:24:07
It's so there's two days of Closing statements or arguments
00:24:12
next week and then it will go to the jury maybe as early as next
00:24:15
Friday. And then the week of the 20th is
00:24:18
all open for deliberation. So I hope you know, it takes him
00:24:21
a day or two and they come back and we can all have a Christmas.
00:24:26
Yeah. Well then you'll have to talk to
00:24:28
the jurors, right? I mean that's always the
00:24:29
exciting moment post-trial when they finally.
00:24:31
So, that's Morgan V, right? I mean, yeah.
00:24:34
Now we'll have to do it to. I'm a little stressed about that
00:24:36
honestly. Because who knows if they're
00:24:39
going to want to Talk to us or just like, get out of there and
00:24:44
yeah, I want to know everyone. That's what everyone wants to
00:24:47
know. Is like what the discussions
00:24:48
inside that room were right? Right, depending on the outcome.
00:24:52
So my last question for you, Aaron, because we gotta let you
00:24:55
go is So is Elizabeth Halsey product of Silicon Valley?
00:25:01
Oh my God. I think about this so much
00:25:04
because I've gotten, you know, a lot of VCS in my DMs, like, come
00:25:09
on. This is not a pie made the
00:25:10
mistake of engaging in that debate and I am still getting
00:25:13
mentions from it. Yeah.
00:25:15
And I think I need to like, just dig in and do a story on it,
00:25:19
but, you know, some people are really worked up about this.
00:25:21
They're so angry. They don't want to be associated
00:25:23
with this at all Eric's buddy. Keith raboy said that when a
00:25:26
reporter Stood that she was a private Silicon Valley said that
00:25:29
was more, there's more untruthful that anything Trump
00:25:32
has ever said. Oh my God, oh my God, that's
00:25:37
ridiculous. Wow, what I mean.
00:25:40
Okay, so just the facts here. Palo Alto is in Silicon Valley.
00:25:46
Stanford is very closely associated with Silicon Valley.
00:25:50
She went to Stanford the Hoover Institute as Stanford is where
00:25:53
she recruited all of her board her initial.
00:25:57
Mr. Don Lucas legendary Silicon Valley investor, Tim Draper also
00:26:03
like fifth generation or whatever, you know, Silicon
00:26:07
Valley investor and on down the line and she had a number of VCS
00:26:12
and they the the current, you know, industry and commentators
00:26:16
want to dismiss them and be like they're not real Silicon Valley
00:26:18
visas. We all pass on a great.
00:26:20
Many people did pass on this and many people said it didn't pass
00:26:24
the smell test, whatever, like that's fantastic, but And shirt
00:26:28
DeVos the DeVos family, the Murdock's The Waltons, the Cox
00:26:33
family. Those are not Silicon Valley
00:26:35
investors but like she was still following the Playbook, she was
00:26:39
trying to emulate Steve Jobs. She was physically here in
00:26:43
Silicon Valley, that all of that makes me like and it's sort of
00:26:49
it's sort of if it's into like how Elizabeth Holmes lies right.
00:26:53
Instead of directly telling you sort of a misstatement.
00:26:57
It's Letting you come away with an impression and sort of
00:27:00
letting the chips fall where they are.
00:27:02
And I do think there's a degree to which Silicon Valley culture
00:27:05
is also sort of very interested in that kind of line.
00:27:08
Like, you know, Marc Andreessen would block people who didn't
00:27:11
like their nose, his wife wrote an op-ed defending Elizabeth
00:27:15
Holmes, you know, there can I really something really quickly
00:27:17
because when that was going on I just Googled dfj fairness and
00:27:21
there is a Facebook post from dfj that is still up that says
00:27:25
under dfj proud to have back. Elizabeth Holmes and fairness
00:27:28
for over a decade as her very first, investor homes is
00:27:31
company. There are no stands on the cusp
00:27:33
of unleashing, a revolution and Drug development and home health
00:27:36
care. That could spawn a new industry
00:27:37
much like the bay area's Genentech did Ababa.
00:27:40
This is still fuck it up there under D fj's payment.
00:27:42
When was that published, March, 1st, 2014, I can send it in the,
00:27:46
okay, so that's that's before the the downfall but yeah, yeah,
00:27:50
yeah. But if you solve, if Silicon
00:27:52
Valley didn't want to get blamed for their nose, they could have
00:27:56
taken a principal. Then, you know, we could have a
00:27:58
alternative story where she tries to raise money from.
00:28:01
Some very credentialed, VC, and they're the ones blowing, the
00:28:04
whistle and saying she's trying to defraud us.
00:28:07
Well, there's some of the things she's saying isn't true.
00:28:09
Instead, it was, you know, her employees that blew the whistle.
00:28:12
So I just think their failure to stand up if they were to say
00:28:17
anything. And, and also they were
00:28:19
constantly, sort of rejecting sort of push back on Twitter.
00:28:24
You know, it felt like the presumption.
00:28:27
It was a it was Dave Moore and didn't Dave Moore in criticized
00:28:30
on the information? Yeah it's that but I'm saying
00:28:32
like every Silicon Valley character was still sort of like
00:28:36
trying to show their credentials for how you could be raw and
00:28:40
supportive and was not at all. Trying to say o, Silicon Valley
00:28:43
is actually about being Discerning and separating sort
00:28:47
of the good from the bad and so then when it's really bad for
00:28:50
them. Yeah, of course you're going to
00:28:52
get blamed because you didn't take any sort of proactive
00:28:55
action to separate yourself. From a and so now you're mad at
00:28:59
people for attaching new to it when everything you said is
00:29:02
absolutely true. So I do agree their failure to
00:29:05
say anything at the time. Partially justifies why they get
00:29:10
tagged with it. Even if, you know, probably the
00:29:13
most directly, you know, family has is, are the biggest it also
00:29:18
speaks to, like, a current circle, the wagons and
00:29:21
groupthink mentality from a lot of VCS right now, which is at
00:29:25
the Press, is out to get us and there are Comparing us to the
00:29:28
worst of what the, you know, Peter and every has other words,
00:29:32
if you were to extend that to any other industry would make
00:29:34
any sense, if you were to say that someone who makes a movie
00:29:36
that bombs had nothing to do with Hollywood culture or that
00:29:39
Bernie Madoff had nothing to do with Wall Street culture.
00:29:42
He's like go ahead and try that argument right away.
00:29:45
They are products. They are products of the world
00:29:47
that you though. You're successful.
00:29:48
And hopefully on the up-and-up are not examples of.
00:29:52
It's still in the same. You're still swimming in the
00:29:54
same pool. Right.
00:29:56
Many of the strategies that she used are used by other Founders.
00:30:00
They just don't go that far. They just don't like get, you
00:30:03
know, they just don't take it to the level of actual fraud or
00:30:07
some do when they don't get invited for it.
00:30:10
I think, if Silicon Valley wants people to know what they stand
00:30:13
for. They have to say it explicitly,
00:30:16
but we give us one concluding. What's been your favorite
00:30:20
vignette or moment? Or like, doesn't have to be
00:30:22
serious, or like, who's the, who's the celebrity?
00:30:25
Sir, who's the, like, what's, what sort of the funny or I
00:30:28
would be trying to be made along the way.
00:30:30
Elizabeth Holmes, family members, behaving, strangely, or
00:30:32
what's, what's going on? It's not making this story, that
00:30:35
sort of like the talk among reporters.
00:30:37
So much for the gadflies. Like, who are you going to miss
00:30:40
when? You don't have to go to the
00:30:41
courthouse. There's so much weird stuff that
00:30:43
has happened. Like I, I like inadvertently got
00:30:47
in a fight with this guy who had driven up from LA and chugged 5,
00:30:51
red bulls and was like confused about the order of the line.
00:30:55
I'm going in and like, there's this cut off at 34 and so
00:30:58
there's actually a lot of a lot at stake.
00:31:01
If you're under 30 for you, get in the courtroom and if you're
00:31:03
over you again, the mean number of number of people not to yes.
00:31:07
Yes. Ari.
00:31:08
Okay. And so anyway that was a little
00:31:11
bit dramatic. What were you?
00:31:13
I was he was trying to cut in front of me.
00:31:15
Basically. I was maybe like 32 or
00:31:18
something. Oh Jesus that's high-stakes.
00:31:19
How was he was? Just trying to force it.
00:31:22
Like he was confused because there are multiple Scots in
00:31:24
line. He was confused.
00:31:25
Which Scott, he was. And anyway, we it all worked
00:31:29
out, it was fine, but there's always a little bit of like line
00:31:32
drama and there's a lot of Spectators.
00:31:35
I don't know if you guys read about, there was one group that
00:31:37
came they were selling black turtlenecks, red lipstick.
00:31:42
They kept getting in trouble though because you're not
00:31:45
allowed to sell things on federal property.
00:31:48
And so, the security guard kept yelling at them and they're
00:31:50
like, no, it's performance art. And oh my God, I got to use that
00:31:54
one. There was there's a A guy who
00:31:56
has hung around a few times. And when Holmes walks in, he
00:31:59
yells you go girl, boss your girl boss.
00:32:02
There's been some tarot cards playing in the line because
00:32:05
we're sitting there for five hours every day before the court
00:32:08
even opens. And so we have a lot of we have
00:32:10
a lot of time to kill all of you guys.
00:32:12
Well, we did a reading for homes and it was it looked pretty
00:32:16
positive for her. Wow.
00:32:18
Wow. I mean, that's what Colleen.
00:32:21
Yeah, I think that. Yeah, that would definitely
00:32:23
affect the betting markets. So, What was your read and
00:32:26
remember the cars. So, I'm a terrible person but I
00:32:30
think one of them was like the was about was like a kind of a
00:32:35
girl boss card. And then I think one of them was
00:32:37
like, is that a real Taro? This was the interpretation of
00:32:42
the person who's doing it and one of them was maybe something
00:32:47
about, oh crap now I'm sorry, I'm totally the great unblinking
00:32:51
eye. Yeah there was one about like
00:32:55
fortune or Having having things work out for you.
00:32:57
There's one of maybe about deception.
00:32:59
I really can't remember now. Sorry?
00:33:01
Disappointing. Have a break for the price of
00:33:02
anything. Anyway, Aaron this is great.
00:33:08
Yeah, thanks so much for joining.
00:33:10
Enjoy your days off and hopefully enjoy having a real
00:33:13
Christmas. Yeah, yeah.
00:33:15
Thanks, I'm not San Jose. All right.
00:33:17
Cool. That was great.
00:33:18
Oh, the judge also keeps keeps calling the trial a moveable
00:33:22
feast which like it's really a fan, really upset.
00:33:25
Me because I'm like this could not be further from.
00:33:28
I'm sitting on the ground for find a bar wrappers all around
00:33:32
you. Yeah, eating Luna bars.
00:33:34
This is this could not be farther than Hemingway's pairs.
00:33:37
Yeah. Kicking me the recap on Aaron.
00:33:43
Did she think that Elizabeth Holmes was convincing?
00:33:46
Hmm, didn't seem like it. No, and I'd asked her because
00:33:50
Insider ran a piece by a demotion ski actually saying
00:33:53
that. Like, when Elizabeth Holmes
00:33:54
testified and gave a t read, you know, whatever tearful
00:33:59
explanation of how she was manipulated and abused by
00:34:02
Sunnyvale hwanhee, that that changed the entire momentum of
00:34:06
the trial into the defense's favor.
00:34:08
And she was, I think a little more skeptical.
00:34:10
All right. Yeah, but she's not I don't
00:34:13
think she can really say outright.
00:34:15
That was my interpretation. But what is this?
00:34:18
Chris Dixon tweet. So, so what happened?
00:34:21
When I can give you the whole rundown?
00:34:22
It's like the Twitter recap section.
00:34:26
Yeah. So some Bloomberg reporter
00:34:29
tweeted out, something to the effect of like someone just told
00:34:32
me that crypto is is Mary Kay for males and I'm dying right
00:34:36
now or some like internet and collect Medics company that You
00:34:40
have to uses anymore. Yeah.
00:34:42
So it was like a pretty weak joke, like a 4 out of 10 but it,
00:34:46
it, you know, became viral because that's what succeeds
00:34:49
these days. So we got like seven thousand
00:34:51
retweets. You know, I blame Tick-Tock for
00:34:53
that cuz it's made us all laugh at things aren't funny anymore.
00:34:56
It's all funny, especially reporters, Tracy.
00:34:58
All the way. Just saw someone described
00:35:01
crypto as Mary, Kay for young men and now I'm dying.
00:35:04
Yeah, it has like 13 awful's, awful, just no effort,
00:35:09
no degree of Uncle teacher. I see I'm say it's just a way
00:35:12
for Bloomberg to try and insult web three yet again on.
00:35:16
December 7th. This is Chris Dixon.
00:35:18
Yeah, so then he has a follow-up tweet to that.
00:35:20
That says, this is why we should never talk to reporters.
00:35:23
All they do is use it as an opportunity to dunk on you.
00:35:26
Later on Twitter, on December 8th.
00:35:27
You says whether he is unusual in that innovators dilemma plays
00:35:31
out at every level including media coverage.
00:35:33
And then he says, which is also why it's a great opportunity for
00:35:36
up-and-coming journalists, you know, they know that they need
00:35:39
your illness but they can't. Themselves, but should on
00:35:42
journalists constantly. It's, yeah, I'm trying to find.
00:35:45
I think maybe Everything's changed since I left, but I
00:35:48
vaguely recall. When I lived in California, that
00:35:52
a 16z actually didn't hate the kind of like that.
00:35:55
I mean, it was like, it was mixed, right?
00:35:57
Like, they like this one. I like to say, I didn't when
00:35:59
they didn't like any normal company, so it's just now, like,
00:36:02
just a all, they're all out there, like, no, never mind.
00:36:06
I mean, Chris Dixon is super anti-media, I mean, definitely,
00:36:09
I'm looking through all this Former board member at BuzzFeed.
00:36:11
So a big led the entries that investment in in bone.
00:36:16
So oh yeah. Oh yeah.
00:36:19
One of my favorite investment posts so but they're the must
00:36:22
still be locked up. I mean, the IPO don't let anyone
00:36:25
else. Well, he stepped down from the
00:36:26
board so I don't know what BuzzFeed injuries and state
00:36:29
currently is in BuzzFeed, but yes, they invested in 2014.
00:36:33
I remember this because it wasn't long after I joined the
00:36:35
information and Chris Dixon put out a post explaining their
00:36:38
investment saying that Actually, BuzzFeed is a tech company if
00:36:42
you want a real web 3 News go direct and follow primary
00:36:44
sources, I mean, clearly the flip side of this is that
00:36:49
Andreessen is super Vindicated in their anti-media stance.
00:36:54
And recent is super Vindicated this week because of that
00:36:57
businessweek piece that basically said that Marc
00:37:01
Andreessen and Ben Horowitz were starting to phase back their
00:37:05
involvement in the firm when they seem like the most
00:37:07
workaholic. And if anything I would say, The
00:37:10
Narrative and reason is that those two are domineering over
00:37:13
the firm that there's a very clear hierarchy within the firm.
00:37:17
And there is a lot of jealousy among Partners about who gets
00:37:21
status and sort of what the pecking order is.
00:37:24
So I was very surprised, sure, they're moving places and like
00:37:28
we're all remote now. But the idea that they're
00:37:32
stepping putting they're taking their foot off the gas and
00:37:34
anyway because they're on fewer board seats.
00:37:37
I found super implausible. Then Mark and been jumped on
00:37:43
Twitter, to make fun of the story and it just was I feel bad
00:37:49
for my former colleagues a little bit because I didn't
00:37:51
think it made them look great. And also, like they're stepping
00:37:57
back, is it proven that they're the people who made all the best
00:38:00
investments and it would actually impact the firm's
00:38:02
performance at all? I mean, I thought then, I mean,
00:38:06
Mark, Mark is not Mark. Yeah, I mean, I think there's a
00:38:09
story that, you know, Mark is Not personally necessarily the
00:38:13
best picker but is a good seller for the firm is good.
00:38:16
At the Vivid Visions or the marketer.
00:38:19
Superheated you need a, you need a Salesman but that's been true
00:38:22
for ever. That's not a change, I mean
00:38:24
right in bet. But then I mean is you know
00:38:28
super involved a lot of the hard decisions and I know he's super
00:38:31
involved in the crypto fund. So, yeah, I found that story a
00:38:36
little, maybe they'll look smart but I mean You know, these
00:38:40
things phase out for so long. I just I feel like it was a big
00:38:44
claim to make to well the other part of it was that they had
00:38:46
stepped off of a couple of their boards, right?
00:38:48
They'd gone from like 11 boards to seven boards which I don't I
00:38:52
don't know what that really means.
00:38:54
If that's, I mean at a time well you know, formation predicting,
00:38:58
you know what berber and the information predicting the and
00:39:00
reasons going to go public, I don't have this sourcing to say
00:39:04
that I wrote a story saying that they had Ambitions to be like an
00:39:08
Apollo. I didn't think That meant they
00:39:10
needed to do a public listing, but they're clearly growing that
00:39:14
firm enormously so they're doing a ton of work.
00:39:17
I mean it's a huge. The management of the firm is
00:39:20
becoming bigger and bigger. The only reason I think that an
00:39:23
IPO for injuries might be smart and probably not for a lot of
00:39:26
other VC firms is because their operation is so large and
00:39:31
encompasses so much outside of investing like an order for just
00:39:35
the profits from investment to continue to always consistently.
00:39:40
For that many human beings who do that many not investing
00:39:44
activities, it would be possibly nice to have a public market
00:39:49
support system, so they could build off of that, you know,
00:39:52
kind of like the what Blackstone did I met?
00:39:54
Chris Dixon Wells. He'll never remember me.
00:39:56
But we met at a recent event and I thought he was really smart
00:40:00
and interesting talk to. I don't know.
00:40:02
I guess that's too like these people.
00:40:04
I met him also at one and I was, of course, trying to work him
00:40:07
for information about BuzzFeed hilarious.
00:40:10
Little did. I know he didn't really give a
00:40:11
shit about Buzz? Yeah, well, I was listening to
00:40:17
him, talk, never heard on that, is on the Tim Ferriss podcast
00:40:21
with navall. And the funny thing about, you
00:40:24
know, obviously sort of Chris and of all seem much smarter
00:40:28
than Tim and Tim just plays sort of bemuse, like, explain this to
00:40:32
me, which is, you know, I guess the softball Tech loves that.
00:40:38
It's just like, oh, yeah, yeah, where the Gods?
00:40:40
In the world to you. But I mean, Chris like clearly
00:40:43
loves philosophy and some ways use the kind of person reporters
00:40:48
like where he's very sort of Humanity's interested.
00:40:53
So it's sort of sad that there's this breakdown who knew this was
00:40:57
going to be a love letter to Chris Dixon.
00:40:59
Here you go. There you go.
00:41:01
That's a contrarian stance. I mean he's you know on the
00:41:05
Forefront of crypto right now. One of the most important things
00:41:08
going on in the world and Exciting thing, it's sort of sad
00:41:12
because the breakdown with the media and some ways is a
00:41:15
breakdown, you know, with the public it's like, oh fuck you
00:41:18
like translated I'm saying. And that's a big, you're like,
00:41:23
what's this doing? And that's like just a bigger
00:41:25
thing altogether when they would never say that.
00:41:27
Obviously, they would take great umbrage at the idea that the
00:41:30
media, and the public could be switched, you know, for each
00:41:34
other in a sentence. But I just think realistically,
00:41:37
that's, that's the truth. Yeah.
00:41:41
I'll tell you who has no problem getting hype and excitement.
00:41:43
From the media though, is every a, our product that ever was
00:41:46
released in the last couple of years.
00:41:50
There's no shortage of reporters willing to traipse over to
00:41:53
whatever location to try on the next pair of ugly ass glasses
00:41:58
that do like 2% of what hoop analogy.
00:42:01
It's the latest one. Well and I don't want to call it
00:42:03
reporters individually because if I were covering the company,
00:42:06
I would probably have gone to and written something nice about
00:42:09
it that you might have. Been forced to go.
00:42:11
Yeah. Well that's part of it too.
00:42:14
Snap had like a developer day for reporters where they put out
00:42:18
their latest version of their augmented reality glasses and
00:42:21
got pretty pretty. Nice.
00:42:23
Write-ups from The Verge Alex Heath, former colleague of mine
00:42:27
and and Casey Newton who basically we're saying like
00:42:30
look, it's limited. What it can do the field of
00:42:33
vision from for augmented. Reality is not all that great
00:42:36
and the things it can do or mostly in the realm of toy
00:42:39
rather than huge You know world changing technology but the
00:42:42
colonel of what it could be is there and for the first time in
00:42:45
my life I can see you know over the horizon.
00:42:48
What this thing is promise and like look maybe in the Elation
00:42:52
of some trying something cool and new you might think
00:42:54
something like that but it's again hard for me to square that
00:42:58
mentality with the either ignorance or derision of crypto
00:43:03
which is like I was saying for we start recording probably at
00:43:05
the same stage in terms of public acceptance and like by I
00:43:09
think I was you reporter As you mentioned are also very
00:43:12
intrigued by crypto to. So that's one.
00:43:15
Flaw with your, your claim here that somehow a are gets more fun
00:43:19
and coverage than crypto mean they both, they both are, I
00:43:22
guess. What?
00:43:22
I want to see is like, watch someone write a piece saying,
00:43:25
how the, I just had a crypt like an AR demo and it sucked.
00:43:29
And this kind of goes back to the conversation.
00:43:30
We had ages ago, where it was like what is the benefit of
00:43:35
writing that something is just bad, right?
00:43:38
Why not just ignore it. Not just ignore it.
00:43:41
Like did we nobody wanted to say I don't know, write a big story
00:43:46
about how the flying car was stupid waste of money and it was
00:43:48
going to be a drag companies that tried it.
00:43:51
Like it's just like why bother just look funny phenomenon.
00:43:55
You know is people who quote tweet tweets that they hate, you
00:43:59
know, it's like, oh, you're Distributing this very thing.
00:44:02
You profess to despise and and so it's just a very human
00:44:09
online. Isshin that you amplify the very
00:44:12
thing you wish to suppress. But do you read stories about
00:44:15
things that people don't like? I mean I don't unless it's
00:44:17
Anthony mi re do he just likes him.
00:44:19
I mean obviously if it's well-written did you read the
00:44:21
wonderful piece about that the one-star Michelin restaurant?
00:44:26
I think it was in some Italian city.
00:44:29
It was I think 27 courses, mostly consisting of like fish
00:44:33
flavored foam. They left Hungary, it was just
00:44:36
terrible. That's true but I didn't see
00:44:39
that as Necessarily something about, I didn't see that as this
00:44:44
is something I disliked, I saw that Maura has this is something
00:44:47
that was extraordinarily weird and unlikable.
00:44:51
Yeah, what I loved more was the chef's response which is the
00:44:54
increasingly abstract, but pictures images of a man on the
00:44:57
horse right? Beautiful.
00:45:00
Well somebody somebody translated it as like oh is
00:45:04
response wasn't do the food's actually good.
00:45:07
Like fuck you. It's I'm trying to abstract Act
00:45:10
a way, the nests necessity of food because which is
00:45:24
exactly exactly. It was like, it was like, you
00:45:28
know, watching the movie Breaking the Waves or something
00:45:30
or let's say, I mean, it was just like, right?
00:45:33
Yeah, anybody can charge you $200 and make you feel like you
00:45:36
just had a great time. I'm going to do something
00:45:38
different, right? Students and enjoyment bike,
00:45:41
that's very 20th century when it comes to food.
00:45:44
Like, what about just pure confusion and like, discuss,
00:45:48
right? I will say, I actually thought I
00:45:50
liked the article, I thought it was kind of annoyingly written
00:45:52
and it's like a certain kind of Internet language that I just
00:45:55
find sort of tired. I knew that it was probably
00:45:57
going to go viral or is written as sort of like yeah.
00:46:00
I don't know, just what just language, I'm curious where you
00:46:03
didn't, like, I can bring up the article.
00:46:05
Specifically there was just lines here and there that were
00:46:07
just like derivative of a certain type of Like internet
00:46:10
humor that I just thrust tiresome and it just like, yeah,
00:46:14
like the front. I will take all of it to me all
00:46:17
of it. To me, was worthwhile just for
00:46:20
the photo and idea of licking, whatever, fish foam out of a
00:46:24
mold cast of The Chef's mouth. I mean, that is that is genius
00:46:28
level stuff. Like that idea is so it wasn't
00:46:32
purely novel in the other restaurants have done
00:46:35
specifically like the cast of The I thought when I saw some
00:46:38
other pictures of Yeah, no one's done that at nopa.
00:46:42
So this is, this is much as I know.
00:46:44
Yes. Let he who has not gone to a
00:46:47
tasting meal. Cast the first stone?
00:46:49
Yeah, I went to guy Savoy in Paris, which is many several
00:46:55
Michelin stars. It's just like the problem with
00:46:58
that is you just need to be like, you get wealthy enough,
00:47:02
you can afford the wealthy thing but you're not wealthy enough to
00:47:04
not care about the things, you know, it's like Iris to
00:47:07
price-conscious, you know, suck I Maybe enjoy that meal of.
00:47:11
It was like, the amount of money was like, a throwaway to me.
00:47:13
So then it was like, whatever. But it's just there if you see
00:47:17
it, as why are you guys trying to upsell me?
00:47:19
Like every time the I think the water bottle, we got to we're
00:47:23
sorry, we didn't get tablet. We asked for just water and what
00:47:25
they gave us was like a 30 dollar twenty thirty dollar
00:47:29
bottle of water. We had two of them.
00:47:30
So our water budget for that meal was like $50 alone and it
00:47:35
was also lunch. We went for with the water
00:47:37
paired with the individual dishes.
00:47:39
Now there was not a Our sommelier and, you know, we went
00:47:42
for lunch and then you get the like actual lunch menu and to
00:47:46
get like the Velar. Something is like a 60 Euro up
00:47:49
charge. Oh, I share a joke.
00:47:52
Sarah, Joe is overhearing me. She just she chatted me the
00:47:56
bottle. It was 28 Euros.
00:47:58
A bottle. I'm underselling it.
00:47:59
But was the restaurant, like, was a place where you're like,
00:48:03
this is really fancy and lovely. And did you feel like not doing
00:48:06
something like very special? There was a loss.
00:48:10
Opportunity like a big milestone event.
00:48:12
Did you feel like you lost an opportunity because it might
00:48:16
have been the best setting for right?
00:48:18
I think. I can't get it.
00:48:20
I can't get it. Oh, I was just gonna say, Eric
00:48:24
lost the opportunity to write a blog post about it, but maybe
00:48:27
there are things that matter more than that, I don't know.
00:48:29
Of course, the restaurant you enjoy the most is the one we had
00:48:31
this terrible bike ride. That was like so many times too
00:48:35
difficult for us but the lunch we had, you know, frantically
00:48:40
The lunch places were going to be closed, was, you know, the
00:48:43
best meal of the trip. Because you're like exhausted,
00:48:45
we ordered a espressos during the cheese course, you know,
00:48:50
during Desert, and the waitress who seemed like she must have
00:48:53
been the owner, like, scolded us that we couldn't wait until the
00:48:56
cheese. Course was done have the
00:48:57
espresso at the appropriate time and she she literally walks up
00:49:01
to one table. And she's like, you're a good
00:49:03
french. Couple she goes up to Anna.
00:49:05
You're a good french couple and you okay?
00:49:08
Kids have no, I mean, it wasn't good.
00:49:10
It fun but it was just like classic like we're anxious about
00:49:13
you know, get it where we want to get out of there.
00:49:15
Like continue our bike ride, it's like take the lunch, you
00:49:19
know, enjoy the espresso. When you're honestly, Eric, let
00:49:23
him have it, give it to them. Because that's literally the
00:49:24
last thing Europeans have I know it's like they're better than us
00:49:29
is better than us in any sort of like, you know, refined cultural
00:49:34
setting. I'm the terrible American who
00:49:36
comes back and I'm like nobody was working there like we're The
00:49:40
white collar workers on their laptops like grinding away like
00:49:43
it seems like a very special, all these enjoying them, learn.
00:49:47
Exactly, who has, who has time for these like lunches, you
00:49:51
know, did you write them? Oh God, I gotta get that gig.
00:49:55
I gotta get whatever. Jig Is affording them.
00:49:58
Take a lunch. I think, just like socialism
00:50:03
plus a declining Empire. I mean, we've got the declining
00:50:06
him, right? That's it.
00:50:07
That should be the next step for America then is like, if we are
00:50:10
Ready are in the point of like Decay as a as a nation and as a
00:50:13
power, like why can't we just start enjoying ourselves?
00:50:15
We'll see. That's the problem we're Square
00:50:16
going. The, you know, excretes this G
00:50:19
for scarce resources, route. While like five people have
00:50:22
everything, it's a really, really tough row to hoe, right?
00:50:26
Yeah. It's like, let's invent like a
00:50:27
war with China and try to like out work there 997 or whatever
00:50:31
the fuck they call it. Yeah.
00:50:33
Friends were just like or we could just drink espresso for 7
00:50:37
hours a day. It's great.
00:50:38
That's why she's drink so much. Hot night, get some right.
00:50:41
I actually the one aspect of that, you know, the bad
00:50:44
restaurant review, that resonated with me was the fact
00:50:47
that they left Hungary at the end, they're just like it
00:50:50
didn't, it wasn't even filling. And actually, that's kind of a
00:50:53
perk because any time, I've gone to those, like, multi-course
00:50:56
restaurants, you eat so much, and it's too many different
00:51:00
foods in your stomach, I always gross, it's gross.
00:51:03
I always feel terrible that's why the fanciest place you
00:51:06
should go is the place where you can spend as much as you.
00:51:10
You need to have a buffet a good time, right, right.
00:51:14
Just go back for seconds. Like, it's your fault.
00:51:15
If you're still hungry. Exactly.
00:51:17
There was a place in La when I lived, there were rows.
00:51:20
And I went to that when we ordered dessert, it was like a
00:51:23
cake or something. Could slice a cake?
00:51:24
And it was just crumbs, it was just like crumbs of various
00:51:27
sizes on the plate and the waiter brought it out and Rosen.
00:51:30
I just started laughing. It's like if you eat this and we
00:51:33
looked at the waiter looked at it and he kind of shrugged and
00:51:36
we're just like and what are you gonna do?
00:51:39
Like I don't think. The intention like I'm pretty
00:51:41
sure the chef just brought the cake and then just try to like,
00:51:44
Cobble it together back on the plate.
00:51:46
If I ran across, I mean, that's very New York.
00:51:48
You guys probably know. Yeah, we've been playing.
00:51:52
That was a restaurant where the portions I thought were we ate
00:51:55
way too much. We ordered like it was like one
00:51:57
of those small plates things we were literally destroyed.
00:52:02
Yeah it was so rich. So weird thing about that place
00:52:05
is that because it was one of the only like one of three
00:52:08
places people went to in Miami. I like her and about it so much.
00:52:12
And then I just conflated the New York restaurant with like
00:52:16
this weird Miami Outpost and like this culture.
00:52:19
Just like I just I so I have this weird vibe bad feeling
00:52:24
about it but the food is good. Yeah, well, there's a whole
00:52:26
genre of tick talker. Who tells you what places are in
00:52:30
in New York. And I do finally, I'm obsessed
00:52:32
with. I sort of got brainwashed by,
00:52:34
like the Carbone takes until you're both on.
00:52:36
Take, Eric, I thought you were getting up.
00:52:38
I deleted it. Literally, I deleted it.
00:52:40
Of the week up until today. I was like, I'm bored.
00:52:43
Like what am I doing? I just published like I'm
00:52:45
allowed to be on Tick-Tock like what else?
00:52:47
Will I text people but Tick Tock videos.
00:52:49
Like it's not like I talk to anyone anymore.
00:52:51
Here's a link, that's it. Well you're both lost.
00:52:54
Then the used to spend our chance.
00:52:55
It's already done. I made a clean break.
00:52:57
All right, let's talk one more thing of substance.
00:52:59
What do you want? Oh yeah.
00:53:00
Okay, I don't you want to talk about Facebook?
00:53:06
I don't even know people like it.
00:53:08
I mean now I do worry that it There's a lot of little people
00:53:11
are tired of now. It's like, it looks like we got
00:53:13
Facebook. Like, people don't.
00:53:14
Yeah, no, that's okay though. I did there was a story of the
00:53:17
Erickson over that I'd very dutifully red.
00:53:20
Hold on the one with the better CEO my wife CPS oh yeah well
00:53:23
that was just like hmm may not a huge surprise just sort of your
00:53:27
basic shitty corporate Behavior but this whole thing about
00:53:31
Carolyn ever seen leaving so soon I didn't I was really Tom's
00:53:36
like I can talk about what I can talk about.
00:53:39
It's fine. Like, I didn't, I mean, I guess,
00:53:42
of course, Tom that is one of your companies, but I just
00:53:45
thought it was interesting because she had had such an
00:53:47
amazing career at Facebook. She responds to Sheryl Sandberg
00:53:51
Lieutenant, right? And then she got passed over for
00:53:53
Marnie, right? But she was not in the Cheryl
00:53:55
crew, she wasn't this. Yeah.
00:53:57
And this is something I don't quite understand about, like
00:53:59
being powerful and like super wealthy is that when you get
00:54:05
passed over for a job, but you still have the really powerful
00:54:09
job, you had that Made you wealthy, we're lost before
00:54:12
respect you. You're so irritated that you get
00:54:14
passed over that. You just throw up your hands and
00:54:15
walk away. That is something I don't
00:54:17
understand because I guess I've never been powerful enough to be
00:54:21
like, you know what, then screw you.
00:54:23
I'm, I do not accept this extremely powerful position.
00:54:27
I already. Right.
00:54:28
That's a bit of continued having well.
00:54:30
It's just like, I don't think that's how you say screw you in
00:54:33
the Sheryl Sandberg world. I'm sure it's like, you say,
00:54:35
fuck off your eyes are so, you know, totally blank and you're
00:54:39
like I'm so grateful for the time I've had working and I'm so
00:54:43
sorry that I need to leave to do nothing specific yet.
00:54:48
You know, like write it, you know, it's who's Afraid of
00:54:50
Virginia Woolf, but that Harvard knows that it like a lady sewing
00:54:57
Circle. But um, I just, you know, she
00:54:59
goes into car as unclear. What she's going to do, you see
00:55:03
that she's overseeing marketing messaging?
00:55:07
You know all Washington legally related things.
00:55:10
Like, kind of, she should ever saying anything that touches any
00:55:12
human being outside of instacart.
00:55:15
And then she was like, you know what, this is not for me.
00:55:17
And I'm going on three months in like, what happened and she was,
00:55:21
she was friendly with Fiji to. It wasn't like they were, you
00:55:24
know, like oh, I didn't realize what I was getting into.
00:55:26
Like, they worked closely together because Fiji was one of
00:55:28
the top at, you know, digital not top.
00:55:30
But she was definitely involved in the digital ads world within
00:55:32
Facebook. So this wasn't like, you know,
00:55:34
an odd couple that was yoked together through requirements
00:55:38
and you know, obligation to get It's in there.
00:55:41
I mean, to me, what's interesting now without tipping
00:55:44
my hand too much about the topic is like, for the longest time,
00:55:48
the instacart instability which has been going on for years now,
00:55:51
they just churn through Executives over there, they were
00:55:54
able to chalk that up to the founder.
00:55:56
A port of a meta who was just kind of a Maniac running that
00:56:01
company just nobody could get along with him.
00:56:03
He didn't know how to be clear with his directives.
00:56:05
I wrote a piece about it a couple months ago that they just
00:56:08
couldn't keep product people, like anyone who He sort of had
00:56:10
any product sense were like, this guy's unworkable.
00:56:13
He has no vision and he's not the CEO anymore like they pushed
00:56:16
him out of that roll to the side and yet the instability
00:56:20
continues. Well, it's very hard to unlearn
00:56:23
companies become like their Founders.
00:56:25
And I mean, watching The Uber thing, I mean people just rise
00:56:29
to the top because they have the traits valued by the founders.
00:56:32
So I do think it's in defense of the new CEO you know the culture
00:56:37
doesn't change overnight but But this one is persistence in URLs
00:56:42
and a cute is leaving. You know, it's like oh the
00:56:44
people that were part of the old regime year.
00:56:46
I'm not going to make it but someone that you like one of
00:56:48
your first orders of business was like, let me bring in like
00:56:51
my solid ads you nobody to run things, it's not a, not a good
00:56:56
sign about the company in any way.
00:57:00
And so I mean I basically had its moment in the pandemic and
00:57:03
whatever if it couldn't grab land then and IPO then that was
00:57:07
such like a good moment. Well that's the other thing.
00:57:10
Thing to, I think a lot of people that went to instacart,
00:57:12
on the way up or like, I'm going to be rich because my options
00:57:16
are going to be so valuable and we know that they're not going
00:57:19
to IPO next year. They were supposed to IPO this
00:57:23
year. They're not going to do it next
00:57:24
year. Who knows if 2023 is on the
00:57:26
table and so if you're Carolyn you're not loving things over
00:57:29
there and you're not sure about, you know, how stable your jobs
00:57:32
going to be and you're not even able to cash out your shares and
00:57:35
who knows how valuable they'll be anyway.
00:57:37
You know, like if it's occurred, has to raise another round.
00:57:40
And it's a Down Round, like that's really bad.
00:57:42
So I should think about this in the way like this is akin to
00:57:46
Symone Sanders leaving, Kamala Harris office.
00:57:50
She's like I don't want to be the outward face for, you know,
00:57:53
what's clearly the implosion of this?
00:57:57
Yeah, she'll he's made in a year.
00:57:58
I mean to you, what is your Kamala if you make it here?
00:58:02
I mean I thought so January, 2020 is when everyone started.
00:58:07
It's it's December 11 months. Yeah.
00:58:09
I'm not her, you know, there was the big piece, was it CNN?
00:58:14
That did the big reported peace and identity Politico has done
00:58:19
some stuff, too. I thought her quotes were sort
00:58:21
of like, I'm not leaving because it's terrible.
00:58:24
It wasn't like, I mean, that's obviously not a direct quote,
00:58:26
but it wasn't like, it's not terrible.
00:58:28
It's like, I'm not leaving because of the thesis of your
00:58:32
story, right? Not speaking to the thesis of
00:58:35
your story, one way or the other, you know, that's what
00:58:37
about red. What about bad fit does it?
00:58:39
Make sense to you. What about cultural mismatch?
00:58:44
Don't you get? Absolutely.
00:58:47
Absolutely. Yeah, I don't really understand
00:58:49
how I mean, I don't know enough about I mean, again, just a
00:58:53
reminder. I don't cover politics.
00:58:55
Technically. The justice department is law
00:58:57
enforcement, right? And clearly a political to yeah,
00:59:00
fall, but But yes, I it's true. When I say, I don't understand
00:59:05
the inner workings of these offices, like Congressional
00:59:07
offices and like, the office of the president, or the vice
00:59:10
president, because they're kind of their own little fiefdoms.
00:59:13
And so, I mean, when I see them, I get that.
00:59:16
Like, I just, I get nervous because it's like once you go
00:59:19
through the Looking-Glass, like God only knows what's going on
00:59:21
back there. Well, I sort of feel bad.
00:59:23
I was out with some somebody's more senior in the industry last
00:59:28
night for drinks. And, you know this Person was
00:59:33
just real like you know, I could have been this bigger role, you
00:59:36
know. But I didn't get the job this
00:59:38
person got it and I was just sort of like to myself.
00:59:41
Like, I don't know that other person either.
00:59:44
Like, what would your life ever? Really been that different if
00:59:46
you'd been? Like, sure, you would've been
00:59:48
richer. You definitely would've been
00:59:49
richer, but it's like you're under another name that nobody
00:59:53
has heard of and life in jail for something better to come to
00:59:56
peace with like that. He feels like he should have
00:59:59
been the CEO of like this, you know, like it's just sort.
01:00:02
Out of, I mean, obviously, not too, but Life's a chain of sort
01:00:06
of wanting. With the next person above you
01:00:09
has everything. Has to be that I think no, I
01:00:14
agree. I mean, is it better though?
01:00:18
To not get the job at you? Thought you were that you
01:00:20
deserved and was part of your life's plan or to get the job
01:00:23
and realize that it's like it's empty that it gives, you know,
01:00:26
sort of, you know, Soul nourishment.
01:00:28
But the ROM is, you just say, oh well the problem is, it's not
01:00:30
the top top job, you know, it's right next.
01:00:32
Winner, and if you're the founder, it's because my board
01:00:35
wouldn't let me be great and they stop me.
01:00:37
You know, it's there is no like, I mean, it's sort of its like
01:00:41
insecurities all the way down. Hurry up.
01:00:42
And you know, if you're Bezos you can be like well they don't
01:00:45
think I'm an inventor. They think I'm the op.
01:00:47
You know, you can always feel so I'm going to actually I think he
01:00:50
feels okay about himself, I know, I think he's okay.
01:00:53
But I do think there's a degree to which, you know, even the top
01:00:56
then you just refrain yourself as saying, well I'm I'm pursuing
01:01:00
to be a once in a generation. Talent.
01:01:02
And then you weigh yourself against the base was thing is
01:01:05
great to me because I don't think he feels like it through
01:01:08
that way, and yet still that insecurity that drives
01:01:10
Executives at a different level, clearly affected him when the
01:01:13
Lauren Sanchez, you know, texting Scandal broke out
01:01:16
because it wasn't enough that like her shitty brother leak the
01:01:20
text messages like know, this had to be a plot led by the
01:01:22
Saudis in order to smear me because I had one time shafted
01:01:26
like MBS which of course turned out to be complete bullshit.
01:01:30
But at that level it's like one clearly an important In person
01:01:33
because why else would my you know my love Tex get out there.
01:01:36
Absolutely. Whilst the Saudis only hack,
01:01:38
very American people, right? That's the only way that it
01:01:41
could have gotten out there. There is that picture where
01:01:43
Leonardo DiCaprio was like looking at her and then Bezos
01:01:47
literally put up like some tweet likes flexing.
01:01:51
Like I feel like this is Nana I know you're talking about.
01:01:55
Yeah I think we're going into part of people's psyche, that's
01:01:58
like really dangerous. This is more Bezos has Petty
01:02:03
petty foibles, like the rest of us or even more amazing.
01:02:06
Yeah. Anyway, instacart watch that
01:02:08
space. Okay.
01:02:12
Sounds good. Goodbye, goodbye.
01:02:27
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. Goodbye.
01:02:12
Sounds good. Goodbye, goodbye.
01:02:27
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. Goodbye.