Liz has handled communications with the media from the crucibles of both the tech and political worlds. We talked about her time with Tesla just as Elon Musk was finding his voice and going through and around the press. She reflected on her time with the Obama presidential campaigns, feeding opposition research to media about Sarah Palin and Mitt Romney. And we debated whether the media has become too critical of tech, particularly from the vantage point of her current role as the VP of comms and policy at DoorDash.
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Hey, it's Eric newcomer. I'm here with Tom doverton & KT,
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Benner and this week's dead cat. We're talking with Elizabeth
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Jarvis Sheen. She's worked for Brock Obama and
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Elon Musk. Today, she runs policy and
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Communications for doordash Liz was behind some of the biggest
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political stories of the Obama years, researching Sarah Palin's
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history as governor of Alaska and digging into Mitt Romney's
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Fortune. We talk tool is about working
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for Elon Musk, Carl. Elevators prop, 22 and
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technology companies, circumventing the media and
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talking directly to the public. Now, let's get to our chat with
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lips. I just wanted to bring you back
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to your time at Tesla and just ask.
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First of all, what was it like to work with this CEO?
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Who is at the time building, you know, such a large Twitter
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following or just what was the experience, you know, working
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with one of these CEOs, when, when they can sort of go direct
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so powerfully, and what was that like back then, I think it was
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more than anything in. In 2014, you know, at Tesla, we
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were just fighting for respect. That was a war.
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Again, it was a war with the auto.
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We question the time or who is the real enemy.
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I don't know. That it was a, it was a, it was
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a war but it was, we were this little Silicon Valley startup
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that up until Model S you know, the The Roadster.
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I was not there for roaster, but Roadster was not a production
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car that Tesla actually built it.
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It's factory over in Fremont, right?
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It was a Lotus Elise chassis that you dropped a battery pack
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into and so Model S, I arrived the year but but after Model S
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one car of the year which was like the thing that really put
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it on the map and started should Propel electric vehicles, Tesla
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and Ilan. I think into a different place
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in terms of the Public's Consciousness, right?
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Electric vehicles. Up to that point are thought of
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as like golf carts, nobody wants them.
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They're super dorky and all of a sudden there was a documentary
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Who Killed the Electric Car. Do you remember that one who
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killed the electric car? I do?
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Oh yeah, everybody has like two hours of Ed Begley jr.
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Being very sad that his electric car wasn't as popular as he
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wanted it to be, right? And all of a sudden there is
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this sexy hot shit. Sedan.
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That is powered by. I'm a lot of curse encourage.
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Oh yes. Okay, yeah, it's that kind of
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podcast act like it. That that just was incredibly
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compelling and it was this it was it was fighting for respect
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that we weren't just going to be a niche sort of rich person's
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toy and you know for Ilan like he feels incredibly passionately
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about the mission at Tesla like he and I would you describe that
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mission that means just that mission is to is to accelerate
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the Advent of sustainable transportation.
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Action. And like, to my mind, it is
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unquestionably succeeded back in 2013. 2014 like major Automotive
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companies were not serious about their TV programs.
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Nobody was serious about charging infrastructure.
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Nobody was serious about it. I thought it was hilarious.
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He was the person who really taught me about.
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I think Eric is less about sort of going direct and more about
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controlling your own destiny, right?
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Like historically. Automakers.
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This is probably not that dissimilar from like Tech
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Hardware, right? Like you you Peg your the
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launches of your new vehicles and the new models to some often
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to some given motor show, right? And so you time it to launch
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around Detroit in the winter, or Geneva, or Paris Frankfurt.
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And Ilan was like that's not what we're going to do.
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We're going to we're going to launch our you know whether it's
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cars or updates or anything like that.
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We're going to do that on our own timeline and we're going to
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do it in our own. And we and, you know, listen
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everybody else, like I expect the media to cover it, and it
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was about creating that product. That was so compelling, just
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saying, like, no, we're going to do this on our own terms, and I
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think that was very different and it, he is somebody who
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again, he believes in it. So passionately, you know, you
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listen to him. I've heard him tell the story
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and every time he tells a story about the like, nearly going
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bankrupt in that winter of 2008, he tears up because heat, like
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this means so much To him and it but the direct, you know, this
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the sort of going direct idea. He has an incredibly clear voice
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that is, by the way, like impossible to write in or
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anything like that. Anybody who I think truly like,
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tries to write for Elon Musk. Yeah.
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How do you do comms for that? I mean, he doesn't, he claims
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not to have. So I think there's a shares
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these days. My understanding is there's not
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sort of an headquarters based team anymore.
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I think there are still some folks in some of the, some of
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the National markets, but but I think, you know, as a company,
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what we were trying to figure out at the time was less, like,
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how do you write in elon's voice?
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Like, that's not what that's about.
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It's how do you try to capture his vision?
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And his way of articulating things that makes it so
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compelling and translate that into something that Bridges the
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Gap. Then to the media and ultimately
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the public. And so, you know, I think one of
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the examples I was there during the era of the The, the first
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car fires and what year was that?
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That God Katie. I think that was 2014.
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Yeah, because I feel like it's hot Fortune when Tesla be there
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was Buzz around it and then the emergency started happening when
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I moved out to Silicon Valley. Yeah.
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And and that was, you know, we had there were just there doing
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the secret. We had never had a never had a
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fire in one of the battery packs and then, just sort of
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circumstances were such That we ended up with two fires within
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about like six weeks of each other.
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One in a car that was in Mexico, which was a little odd because
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we didn't actually have food and sell cars in Mexico.
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But one of the, you know, One of Eli's points was like let's just
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show what we're doing to fix this.
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And so we created this underbody shield and everything like that
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and we the team without testing it and like running it over
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cinder blocks out on in the parking lot.
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So I think in Fremont and we filmed it and we just, you know,
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put that into a blog post, put it up on medium, with a gif of
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the car, running over the cinder block, and sort of the impact
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and the way in which the cinder block exploded.
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And it was so it that was not sort of the direct communication
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that we might think of these days of like Twitter or House or
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what have you but it was we are going to tell our own story and
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we're going to tell it in a way that is compelling and
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interesting. And probably at that time, at
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least very unique for automotive.
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I remember too that the the auto press was not going to pay
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attention to Tesla and Tesla fault very Tesla Tesla was going
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up against. Not just the idea of the auto
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press but the relationships that the automotive companies have
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with the auto press, you know, for a really long time covering
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Automobiles, basically, until the financial crisis was a very
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Boys in their toys type industry.
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It was a bunch of male reporters, generally who went
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out with corporate Executives and drove really fast together
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and then had a drink. And so that was such an
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entrenched community of back slapping that for Tesla to
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enter, it felt like a non-starter and I can even
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remember being at Fortune, seeing the way cool.
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Tesla wasn't getting coverage felt so much about that.
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And so for you to make these almost most gorilla videos that
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no Auto reporter. It pay attention to you were
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allowing the public to obviate. You know, this group of men.
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Basically. Who decided which cars were cool
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that you're well it was I think that's.
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It was a very entrenched, I think you're absolutely right.
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It was it was a very entrenched sort of relationship, and we
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were absolutely the upstarts. I mean, it's your point on men.
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Like the number of times I was I was referred to as a PR girl.
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Oh, hey, you Look like a PR girl.
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Can I talk to you? Can I talk to you about the car
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and like go fuck yourself? But yeah, I'll talk to you.
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Very, very mad man. I like that.
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Ya know, very well, would you like would you like in Manhattan
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and a backrub to it? Looks like it can be kidding.
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Yeah. But you know it was that was
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where we were fighting for respect.
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Yeah. And it was very challenging but
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I think the Wait, elon's ability in the company's ability to go
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sort of tell these stories, more broadly, and in different ways
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began to generate the enthusiasm within the public most of whom,
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by the way, like, couldn't afford a Model S, right?
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Very high price, point car publicly acknowledged.
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But there became this enthusiastic public that wanted
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to read about Tesla and that in some ways I think help to both
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create The credibility but drive the impetus for for coverage.
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More broadly to me, one of the pivotal moments in elon's
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relationship with the Press came.
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And I think it was probably the time that you were there.
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Which was that the Wall Street, journal's Car.
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Reviewer did a, you know, fairly scathing review involves your
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times with the times. I was the time, sorry, it was
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before, it was before I get was a few as six months before I
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started but it was the times. Yeah.
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Okay. Sorry.
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My apologies to the journal but it was like one of their big A
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big deal car, reviewers who wrote this review in which he
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said, this thing left me stranded in the middle of like,
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the New England Wilderness because the battery, the battery
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levels were not accurate and I ran out of juice and Ilan
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responded. Very publicly by tweeting out
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the data that I guess. The company gathers on all
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drivers which is interesting on its own showing that its battery
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levels will totally accurate. What the fuck is this guy
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talking about? If anything, the Tesla over
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performed based on the conditions that it was put in
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and how Are over the limit. This guy was driving in terms of
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battery levels. And I mean, I thought it was a
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honestly, I don't know why, you know, the accuracy one way or
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the other there and where the public ended up deciding, who
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the right person was. But it was a pretty impressive
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like big dick move on his part to say, like what you're saying
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is not true and we have the data to back it up and I don't know
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if the cult of Elon as you know, this important Force combating
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against a negative press if it began their, but to me, it
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seemed like it was very fully formed at that.
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Point where it's just like, I am my own media platform.
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Here is my audience, I will send them against the mainstream
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Media or the antagonistic media to show them that I'm right.
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And they're wrong. And I've won and they've lost
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in. This is the new Dynamic, like I
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said. That was, that was about, I
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think that story was about six months before I got there, but I
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I don't think that it is an antagonism towards media, it
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like, right. I'm sitting on one side of the
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outside, the island. Um, you know, I'm sure that, you
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know, we would call Danna hall or others and they have four
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different perspectives. But I think I really do think
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like, I situate that within the context of the company not being
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taken, seriously, broadly, and the cars and electric vehicles,
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not being taken. Seriously, like feeling like an
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upstart feeling like to, Right was against us, you know, in the
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German automakers and like all the vested interests and Wall
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Street, and everybody. And I also situated within the
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context again of like, you know, and I know we're going to talk
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about this later but the The passion that founder CEOs.
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And in this case, Elon in particular like really feel
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about their companies. And I think also in his, you
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know, in this particular case like really feel about the truth
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Thor and the data and he was he was going to tell the story and
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share the data that he believed to be true to refute this and
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push back against what felt again at the I'm it really did
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feel inside those four walls, it really did feel like it was sort
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of an us against the world mentality.
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It was everybody was so dismissive and like, these are,
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I mean, this theme, I mean, the truth, I mean, one of the
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reasons I wanted to talk to you is, you know, you worked with
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Obama doing research, right? So there you get sort of ground
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truth, you know, the campaign sort of exposing to you the
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potential scandals. You sort of see the world of
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what could have been reported versus what is and then again
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working within the The companies, you know, you see
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what they they have facts obviously that they don't always
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reveal. So you have this sort of
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interesting view of the truth. Now I would say it's probably
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distorted somewhat by being like in this Tesla case you know
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you're on the team and everybody inherently is going to serve
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root for their perspective, a little bit.
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But I guess the big question that I just want to ask is, do
00:13:03
you think yeah in that episode in broadly, sort of the direct
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communication means, the public gets a better sense of the
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truth. Then if it had been sort of
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intermediated by this sort of middle person who's trying to
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figure out the truth or just this way of the truth.
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I mean that's such the core question to me of that
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conversation. You think this is improved with
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the public receives. I think it's a yes.
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And I think like, I don't I think that, you know, sort of
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the more direct channels and opportunities for anyone, you
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know, politicians Advocates CEOs, you know, the folks who
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are in the broader public civil society, organizations, the
00:13:48
ability to disseminate information directly and tell
00:13:53
that story. Like I think that that is if
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done responsibly value additive to a strong and robust.
00:13:59
Fourth estate. I don't I don't think that It's
00:14:02
a like we should only do quote unquote, traditional Media, or
00:14:05
we should only do direct channels because I think that
00:14:08
you do one, you're missing out on an opportunity on the and
00:14:11
George opportunity and we're in the other.
00:14:13
Yeah. And working with Elon and with
00:14:15
Tesla and that time did it, did you have sort of flashbacks to
00:14:20
your time on the Obama campaign? Because keep in mind even though
00:14:22
Barack Obama did win the presidency?
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It was not a sure thing. Hillary Clinton was supposed to
00:14:27
win the presidency. She was the shoe and she was the
00:14:30
General Motors. She was the Ford.
00:14:32
She was Chrysler and Obama was the Tesla in.
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I will not say how I feel about his presidency.
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Whether I voted for him, I will say he was not a friend to
00:14:42
traditional media through the course of his presidency.
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He did very few interviews with the Washington Post, it might
00:14:49
have been none. Margaret Sullivan had this in a
00:14:51
column, but he did interviews with Between Two Ferns
00:14:55
interviews. He did late night TV interviews.
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He did interviews with Jay Leno. He did not sit, and actually
00:15:01
speak. Weak and he did podcast.
00:15:03
He did not sit and speak with the reporters who cover the
00:15:07
White House Marc Maron podcast. And some of that felt like it
00:15:10
came from a campaign in from a place where he had not been
00:15:13
taken seriously by the traditional media.
00:15:16
So you know, can you compare some of the experience you had
00:15:18
working on the Obama campaign with, you know, how that
00:15:21
translated to your work with Tesla?
00:15:23
Sure, I mean, so full transparency, you know, I was
00:15:26
not there in the early days I was actually working at CNBC I
00:15:30
did a tour of Duty. In Englewood Cliffs with a bunch
00:15:34
of fine folks there. But I when I joined the campaign
00:15:37
in Chicago in during the summer 2008, we had already.
00:15:41
I was part of the crew that sort of joined once they had locked
00:15:44
up the general so I cannot I'm like a half OG Obama person but
00:15:48
not full. Oh gee but yeah.
00:15:50
No. I mean they were down what 40?
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He was down 40 points in Iowa. Something like that.
00:15:54
I, you know. Yeah.
00:15:54
It was it was like you gave a great speech in 2004.
00:15:58
Congratulations, Junior. Senator from Illinois, like,
00:16:02
you're not going to be president and I, but I saw, I think that
00:16:05
part of the, the media strategy was about finding like political
00:16:12
Playbook. How did I compact accountability
00:16:16
though? Because, you know, the AMA, the
00:16:20
late night talk show, Ilan speaking to sort of a
00:16:23
friendlier, not maybe press Corps but a friendly or group of
00:16:26
actors or finding his voice on Twitter.
00:16:28
Or those things I think are fantastic for messaging but what
00:16:31
about the accountability piece that reporters with expertise
00:16:36
can bring to bear by asking harder questions?
00:16:41
Yeah, I guess I don't. I'd be interested in your girl's
00:16:47
perspective, having not sat on, like the reporting side of it
00:16:50
does. Is that a sort of necessary
00:16:55
condition for accountability a sort of that, that like access
00:16:58
to the person at the top of the food chain?
00:17:02
Or I don't know if I'm on the same page with Katie on there
00:17:05
being much, more accountability through beat reporters asking
00:17:09
questions and be like, Oh, letting Politico or whoever set
00:17:12
the agenda, I would say would be a net negative.
00:17:15
Really, I'm more sympathetic to Katie on having sort of the big
00:17:19
washing pose for New York Times be reporters.
00:17:22
Check in with the principal's every wet once in a while and
00:17:24
like make sure their questions are being put up.
00:17:27
But I do worry that some of the like meat respected, media loves
00:17:32
to drive attention to sort of. Well, I also thought I also
00:17:35
think that we saw you know with with Trump who was clearly you
00:17:39
know, he did sit down with the beat reporters, you know, he
00:17:41
would talk to Maggie all the, you know all the time.
00:17:43
I think that's He he didn't really sit for a lot of big
00:17:48
interviews of the type. We're talking he didn't have his
00:17:50
press secretary, go out like gents.
00:17:52
Ah he does every day and take hard questions from the Press.
00:17:55
He didn't let people get grilled in the way.
00:17:57
The reporters are currently grilling sake and Tony blinken
00:18:01
on Afghanistan, that did not happen.
00:18:04
But do you think it matters as much?
00:18:05
Because, you know, we saw it when with a few times that I
00:18:08
don't know if you or not, but the times that Trump did sit
00:18:11
down with the media, whether it was, I don't know, John Ethan
00:18:14
Swan or any of the like TV network guys?
00:18:18
They would ask the questions. He would dissemble, he would
00:18:20
just kind of Trail off and change the subject.
00:18:22
He would get combative and then they would just sort of move on.
00:18:25
Like I don't know, like accountability was achieved
00:18:27
because the question asked the public was allowed to see what
00:18:32
he was. Like, as a person being asked
00:18:33
questions, the public was allowed to see the answers that
00:18:35
he gave the public was allowed to see who he was as a leader
00:18:38
through those answers. And, you know, people can say
00:18:40
that that doesn't matter because folks already had strong
00:18:43
opinions of Humph. But don't you think for a if
00:18:46
nothing else historic record it was important to capture him
00:18:50
speaking and yeah I'm sure his leadership style.
00:18:55
I guess I just don't know if that leadership style was
00:18:57
captured any more clearly through his insane speeches at
00:19:00
CPAC versus you know what? He would say to Jonathan Swan
00:19:04
where he was, hello, some of the Jonathan Swan interviews
00:19:07
actually had impact. I don't know that it's such a
00:19:09
sprawling. Yeah, street from is it gets
00:19:12
crazier different impact and accountability are completely
00:19:15
different. Talk a little bit about your job
00:19:18
on the campaign because it's I think it would be fascinating to
00:19:21
people. I mean you're accumulating
00:19:25
Dossiers or I don't know your style of the dark because it
00:19:28
sounds so sexy like that. It is not let me tell you guys
00:19:32
research it's like dossiers on reporters.
00:19:35
Well no no well maybe but Sarah Palin certainly right.
00:19:39
You were you're researching her and then Mitt Romney.
00:19:41
Yeah but Romney Romney a lot a lot of Hello to my friends from
00:19:46
2012. Yeah.
00:19:48
No look it's not about again. It's I think research often gets
00:19:51
described as the dark arts and like oh you guys digging through
00:19:54
trash bin, Since I know we are sitting trolling through
00:19:58
LexisNexis results and video clips and local, you know,
00:20:04
records and going to libraries and things like that and it's
00:20:08
like to call this m. It is in fact a lot like
00:20:11
reporting I would argue about so sorry.
00:20:13
You know what sweetie I mean this is he'll make choices in
00:20:16
life when reporting is being hollowed out.
00:20:19
You know, Rings having to produce research that they can
00:20:22
fill some of the gaps, right? Or yeah I think I think that
00:20:26
It's not, that was one of the interesting Dynamics.
00:20:28
I think at that period of time. So like 2008, the midterms of
00:20:32
2010, the 2012 reelect, you know.
00:20:36
Again you all live through this. I think in a much more personal
00:20:39
way of the, the gyrations and the changes, the Fairly Tech
00:20:42
like tectonic changes within media and I think at that point,
00:20:46
you know for political media there was a lot of emphasis on
00:20:50
kind of the embeds who were on the trail or you know, Politico
00:20:54
had come up So there became a lot more emphasis on shorter
00:20:57
form kind of breaking news and that kind of stuff.
00:21:01
And so a lot of the investigative bureaus, even in
00:21:05
places like the times the journal, the post, you know,
00:21:10
probably did not have the resources that they had had
00:21:13
historically and and probably don't, I would imagine now have
00:21:17
have rebuilt, some of that. So one of the functions of the
00:21:21
research team, I mean the primary function of any research
00:21:23
team is actually to know. About your own gal or guy like
00:21:26
to know their record and to be able to go out there and tell
00:21:30
the story of the accomplishments, understand
00:21:32
where the vulnerabilities are and help.
00:21:34
The the teams that are there's doing sort of the thrust and
00:21:36
Parry with whether it's reporters or, you know, looking
00:21:39
for endorsements or any of that sort of stuff, you know,
00:21:42
understand the record and be able to speak to it in a
00:21:45
compelling and convincing way. But there is then the the side
00:21:48
you on the campaign side, those different at the White House.
00:21:51
But on the campaign side where, you know, you had an opponent or
00:21:54
several opponents in the The primary and so needed to know
00:21:58
about them and, you know, you think about a candidate like so,
00:22:01
you know, Eric United talked about Sarah Palin so I ran the
00:22:03
Palin crazy, right? Yeah, tell be real Taylor.
00:22:05
Yes, I rather Palin research in 2008.
00:22:09
And, you know, she had been, I think she had, we had moved her
00:22:15
to like, tier 3 or if you thought, no way they're going to
00:22:18
pick her. It's there was no way.
00:22:19
They were going to pick her because she had, they had been
00:22:21
an open. There was an open ethics
00:22:23
investigation. Into her her governor's office
00:22:27
and like, was that what you're gay?
00:22:29
It was Trooper. Guess is that right?
00:22:31
Yeah, yeah, well, nobody. Nobody in their right Minds
00:22:33
picks, that person's before to, that's helpful, you know?
00:22:38
Troopergate was like deeply enmeshed in like big snowmobile,
00:22:40
right? I think that's probably right.
00:22:42
And actually, it's snow machine. I learned through my time
00:22:46
researching. But you know, we started hearing
00:22:50
Rumblings the morning of the announcement that they, that
00:22:53
Senator McCain is selected. A On the ticket and I think we
00:22:56
all thought it was gonna be somebody like Kay Bailey
00:22:58
Hutchison and so we started like pulling it together and I'll
00:23:01
send some, I think somebody yells out across the Across The
00:23:06
Campaign Headquarters. It's Sarah Palin like from
00:23:10
Alaska on Maverick. He did a Maverick.
00:23:14
Yeah, you know in like the state of Alaska website crashed, the
00:23:17
whole, the whole day was insane but it was also I don't know
00:23:20
that you're going to have a moment like that again in modern
00:23:22
American politics where it was. We an eight week Sprint, to
00:23:27
figure out who, this woman was, what was his record?
00:23:32
And it was, I mean, it was just kind of Bonkers.
00:23:35
But, and I mean, I don't think there's anything untoward about
00:23:37
this, but your, I don't know if it's you or the campaign.
00:23:40
But you breathe, like, Katie Couric before the big
00:23:43
interviewer. How does that play out?
00:23:45
How does this get to the, to the slowly?
00:23:47
So, it's not uncommon before. You know, big interviews or
00:23:54
debates or anything like that for for producers reporters
00:23:58
whoever's doing it, but like sort of and everybody to reach
00:24:01
out to folks on both campaigns and say, like what you know,
00:24:04
what do you think would be interesting, what should we
00:24:06
highlight? And so, you know, they were, I
00:24:09
have no doubt asking the McCain campaign and Sarah Palin's
00:24:11
folks, in the same way that they came to us.
00:24:14
And one of the points, the one of the, I think one of the
00:24:17
things for the Couric interview, which I was the, you know, I can
00:24:20
see Russia from my house, right? Key to her.
00:24:23
Well, the way we should be clear.
00:24:24
That was not something that she said that was something.
00:24:26
I said no later parodied in which people erroneously
00:24:29
believed that. She said that she did say that
00:24:32
the orders right there. Good fact, check right done.
00:24:35
Tom back. Yes, snopes.com over here but it
00:24:40
was the one where it was. Yeah.
00:24:41
I think Katie asks, you know like what do you know what are
00:24:44
the like where do you get your news?
00:24:45
What do you mean the one of the points to Couric's folks was,
00:24:50
you know, Sarah Palin is Probably a one of the most like
00:24:54
pre naturally. Talented politicians of her
00:24:56
generation. She is incredible.
00:24:58
On her feet. She's great with this sort of
00:25:01
the one-liners and the, the phraseology that just like
00:25:06
sticks in your brain, but she had not up to that point really
00:25:09
been pressed Beyond kind of the Top Line stuff Beyond like the
00:25:13
main bullet point and maybe the first sub bullet.
00:25:15
And so the point to the I think that we made to to Katie's
00:25:19
producers and other folks was like push her beyond that.
00:25:21
Keep asking the Follow up, see what's there and it wasn't about
00:25:26
any particular subject. It was just that at that point,
00:25:29
you know, all of Palin's interviews have been very I
00:25:32
think surface level because nobody knew anything about this
00:25:35
woman. And so a lot of it was just like
00:25:37
getting to know this person and it was I think the Couric
00:25:39
interview was that first one. I've like, real deep substance
00:25:42
and then the Mitt Romney story, I don't want to give away.
00:25:44
Oh man. Okay, so I mean I have so many
00:25:46
Romney stories but and again all my love tulle on each end and
00:25:50
Ben Ginsberg and all my friends folks why Become friends with
00:25:53
since then who did not love me at the time.
00:25:58
So you know, among them like we did all this research on the
00:26:02
governor his record as Governor, you know, is time at Bain
00:26:06
Capital, all of that, but the one, I think that everybody
00:26:08
remembers is the car elevators? Yes, yes yes.
00:26:13
The car elevators. So as is normal course of
00:26:17
business in research, you collect information public.
00:26:22
For information about. But again, both your own gal or
00:26:25
guy and and the folks on the other side and part of that
00:26:28
especially with someone like Mitt Romney is his his sort of
00:26:35
personal Holdings of inclusive of property and right.
00:26:37
So he had this house and like a cabin in Lake.
00:26:39
Winnipesaukee he had a home and in Boston area, there's a
00:26:43
property in Utah, obviously. And then there was this, we knew
00:26:48
that there was a house in San Diego.
00:26:50
Yes, San Diego house. I don't know why that One is the
00:26:52
one that pushed me over but I was like he's got a San Diego
00:26:55
pad, it wasn't because of they there.
00:26:57
There's because of the car over, there's Tom and I'll tell you
00:27:00
why. So what you do so like you fight
00:27:02
you figure it out and then you do on the ground collection
00:27:05
document collection of whatever might be publicly available and
00:27:08
in a place like La Jolla. It turns out there's there are
00:27:12
many, many Hoops to go through to renovate a house
00:27:16
unsurprisingly right there. Looks like California, so there
00:27:19
were documents. We had some folks in, we heard
00:27:22
some folks. who are based in Southern California, and they
00:27:24
went down and collected like California Coastal commission,
00:27:27
records and blueprints for the new house and the permit
00:27:31
filings. And like, I mean, I think that
00:27:32
Governor Romney had now centered around.
00:27:34
He had a higher like a local lobbyists, the shepherd, all
00:27:36
this thread is ridiculous. There's a tons of paperwork all
00:27:40
the publicly available so they package it up and they ship it
00:27:42
back to us in Chicago. And I'm sitting in my desk one
00:27:45
day that package arrives and seems like going through it and
00:27:48
one of my deputies, Jamis Lynch pins me.
00:27:50
He's like, hey boss, can you come out here for a second?
00:27:52
I was like, I can't ride on out and out on the desk.
00:27:55
Is this big Blueprint of the plans for the new house, right?
00:27:57
Because remember they bought the property and plan was to build a
00:28:01
new house. He's like so we're looking at
00:28:03
it. This nice like what is this is
00:28:05
like car lift to car lift. What is that?
00:28:09
And I was like that is a car elevator.
00:28:12
That is exactly what that is. So when you discover the car
00:28:16
elevators, can you walk us through your emotional journey?
00:28:18
Is it like you literally jump up and down for joy to keep it
00:28:22
inside. So nobody sees you like, what's
00:28:24
going on. I think I was fairly dumbfounded
00:28:28
at first, mostly, because I'd only heard of car elevators,
00:28:31
like with in automotive, like I come from, a family of cart
00:28:34
nuts. We Like Love formula one and all
00:28:36
that. And I was like, I didn't even
00:28:39
know that people had Carville elevators in their houses.
00:28:41
That's so first, I was like, that's kind of cool.
00:28:44
But, oh my God. That one was a little bit less
00:28:48
celebratory because they're sort of, like, what what am I gonna
00:28:51
do with this? The one, I will say the, the
00:28:55
instance I do remember, Katie jumping out of my chair and,
00:28:57
like running over to Jim Messina is office in a celebratory
00:29:00
manner, was when I was with Clint Eastwood started, talking
00:29:03
to a chick and empty chair at the Republican National
00:29:06
Convention I also believe a greatly misunderstood moment.
00:29:12
I thought it was a solid performance.
00:29:14
I thought people were being unfair to tried to convince
00:29:16
everybody that had been good for the Republican.
00:29:20
I mean, yeah, I'm better. I'm at a point to this.
00:29:23
I mean, I do think often like campaigns and companies.
00:29:25
Spend a lot of time. People like yourself
00:29:27
Communications people trying to say, oh this like silly one-off
00:29:31
case that obviously people are going to seize on any.
00:29:33
We talked about the condoms in the stairwells with Parker, you
00:29:36
know, these iconic things. Distort.
00:29:39
Honestly, how people understand reality?
00:29:42
Right, because they grab on or I mean maybe disagree but then, on
00:29:45
the other hand, obviously humans, understand things
00:29:48
through stories. That's exactly what the campaign
00:29:49
understood. So it's interesting where you
00:29:51
sit, where you're functioning like a reporter where it's like
00:29:54
we're not looking for sort of a graph necessarily on his wealth
00:29:57
over time we're looking for something that sort of expresses
00:30:00
emotionally his wealth which is also what reporters are often
00:30:04
looking for and leads and that's what the public consumes.
00:30:07
And so Putting these in campaigns.
00:30:09
You know, you guys are sometimes on both sides of whether it was
00:30:13
emotional, anecdotes are smart or dumb because they want to
00:30:16
package something that's going to do well with the media.
00:30:19
Like, you have to think in the same way that a journalist does.
00:30:21
Like is this story going to sell the public things, right?
00:30:24
But I'm curious here, you know, just add onto Eric's question.
00:30:27
Like when you come to a place like the Tribune or Politico and
00:30:31
say, Here's this pre, you know, that it's this perfect package
00:30:34
of the story gets love that you think it was perfectly packaged.
00:30:37
Its best Things like it never is it's like really because I mean
00:30:41
I don't you know and I you know, Katie understands this more so
00:30:44
having been in d.c. for a bit. I have in all my years as a tech
00:30:47
reporter never been called up. Almost never been called up by a
00:30:52
comms person. And say, here is something you
00:30:55
should write right now. This is a great really story.
00:30:57
Never I don't think so. I mean, I'll tear your
00:31:02
wheelhouse here. I mean, there are times that
00:31:06
there are times that, you know, companies will certainly have an
00:31:10
agenda. They want to push, that benefits
00:31:12
me, but I feel like it's so much more common in political circles
00:31:16
than it is in Tech reporting surgeries beside has to be
00:31:19
convinced that you had the smart idea, so they give you the
00:31:23
little thing and then you come come, come to it.
00:31:26
Well, yeah, I mean, I'm just giving you know, but it's also
00:31:28
like, I guess I mean I'm good. It is like I want to be very
00:31:33
clear like anybody to whom we have ever like on the campaign's
00:31:37
we ever shared research. Like everybody went out and did
00:31:40
additional shoe-leather reporting and like validated,
00:31:43
what we gave to them, nobody was just like, oh yeah, papa papa
00:31:46
and like up and go it. Like it was That I do that has
00:31:53
never been my experience and it is like, I don't come any other
00:31:57
source. Yeah, it's like, here's here's
00:32:01
what, here's what we've got. Here's here's what we've got.
00:32:04
Like, think you'd be interested. You know, here's here's some
00:32:09
backup for it. Like happy to talk through it,
00:32:12
but want you to be able to do your own reporting on this.
00:32:16
But I think Tommy may also just be a function of Right?
00:32:21
Like, it's a different campaign is a different Dynamic than then
00:32:26
Tech, right? Like particularly in like the,
00:32:30
you know, the way that our democracy is set up.
00:32:33
Hopefully for a little while longer is you know, you like you
00:32:36
do have those oppositional forces and and again I think at
00:32:41
the time you had a lot of news rooms that didn't have.
00:32:45
It wasn't that there weren't great reporters, it just looks
00:32:47
like they were, it was a really sort of like, in the Very
00:32:52
challenging times, especially for local media of, like, do we
00:32:56
have the resources to go out and spend like a week and a half
00:32:58
doing document collection? The answer to that is no and but
00:33:05
but also just like it is. I do think it is a little bit.
00:33:08
It is more common within the political media and like some of
00:33:12
the just like the flow of information, you know, in the
00:33:16
same way that like where was the Brock Obama's birth certificate
00:33:20
like is this thing real? Like, you know that Was stuff
00:33:22
that was coming to us, not necessarily from the McCain
00:33:24
campaign but like from crazy as people, you know, out on Out On
00:33:28
The Fringe but like that that was getting sort of moved
00:33:30
against us in the same way that we were sharing things on the
00:33:34
other side. I have a question about
00:33:36
accountability again because what's so interesting is we've
00:33:41
established that it's okay to you know as an entity it whether
00:33:44
you're a politician or the CEO of a company or Corporation,
00:33:48
there's so many good ways to tell your own story without the
00:33:52
Us. Why is it important for -
00:33:55
information about your competitor to be pushed through
00:33:58
the Press? Why can't a company or a
00:34:00
politician simply say? Well, you know what Mitt Romney.
00:34:05
You're not a man of the people, you have car elevators.
00:34:08
What's going on with that? I mean, that could be a pretty
00:34:10
good debate Zinger. So why was it more impactful for
00:34:13
that to be pushed through a media organization?
00:34:17
I think, you know, to be quite honest.
00:34:19
So I think it Number one. There were only there was only
00:34:23
so much that we could we could do through public records and
00:34:30
and learn and share. And I think we did at the time,
00:34:35
there were some things where we would sort of begin to deploy it
00:34:39
and then share the back up and those kinds of things.
00:34:42
But I think it was also, I just think 2012 was a different era,
00:34:46
you know. 2008 certainly was and I think if you look at campaigns
00:34:50
now Are probably is more kind of direct sharing of information.
00:34:58
It actually would be really, I mean, Katie, it's a great.
00:35:01
It'd be really interesting to think about a 2024 campaign
00:35:05
where teams just shared this stuff, more directly as opposed
00:35:10
to sharing it with media first. But I mean I mean you don't
00:35:14
think masking The Source UPS. The credibility level I mean and
00:35:18
it's from public records. So then but that sort of to me,
00:35:21
would I assume the game is that it's better?
00:35:23
There are plenty of, there are plenty of stories where, you
00:35:26
know, the it is made very clear in the story that this
00:35:30
information was provided by You know, the Obama campaign or the
00:35:33
Romney campaign or whomever it was, does that hurt the impact
00:35:37
of the story? You think if it sounds like it
00:35:39
came directly as an Oppo dump versus like I the enterprising /
00:35:43
little, you know, political reporter have uncovered, you
00:35:45
know, yeah, elevator car line. So it's a, you know, I'm
00:35:51
actually like I'm not just blowing but like I actually
00:35:53
don't because I don't know. How much?
00:36:02
II like legitimately don't know how much weight that would carry
00:36:05
with an average voter, like, people goes to Media so little
00:36:09
that it doesn't need to necessarily come from the
00:36:11
present. Like there could be a world in
00:36:13
which like, you know, a campaign sharing that directly in 2024,
00:36:18
has more credibility with a certain audience than it being
00:36:21
shared pressing. But yes.
00:36:23
Yeah. But Trump supporters will
00:36:25
believe they're more apt to believe information that comes
00:36:28
from him directly then push through the wall.
00:36:31
Street Journal, right? And I think that and I don't
00:36:35
want to only criticize. That's I'll just say that's one
00:36:38
example and we see shades of it too.
00:36:42
And more mainstream circles where people were willing to
00:36:47
embrace information. It was later to be proven to be
00:36:49
untrue about Donald Trump because they just liked him so
00:36:53
much and it didn't matter where the information came from the
00:36:56
yeah, it's entirely possible that that's the case.
00:37:00
And it's, you know, and Even in like a non trumpian sort of
00:37:04
world. You know, information that is
00:37:08
shared by a figure, you know in whom you believe passionately
00:37:12
like probably does have a different weight to it and land
00:37:17
differently and like attached itself to you in a way that is
00:37:19
different from, like I read it. And you know, my local
00:37:22
newspaper. I want to talk about doordash
00:37:26
where you work now, and sort of the tech press, which Tom was
00:37:30
touching on a little bit earlier.
00:37:33
I mean, there have been two major, you know, to me doordash
00:37:39
Troy's one sort of, the, I mean there.
00:37:42
I'm sure you have many stories, but, you know, it's really neat
00:37:44
Alaric, you know, there's the prop 22 in this sort of
00:37:47
consumption of how press deals with prop 22.
00:37:51
And then there's sort of how doordash He has handled tipping
00:37:56
over the years. What what, how would you rate
00:38:00
the media's coverage of prop? 22?
00:38:01
I mean, do you think it's fair, if it's not fair, what would
00:38:05
sort of your main criticism of it?
00:38:07
Be as in say, can we just get a new sentence description of
00:38:10
prop? 22?
00:38:11
What, what is it something like 15:22 was the ultimate Triumph
00:38:16
of capital, Over The Working, Man, in which in which no
00:38:19
basically, it was a rule that allowed all the gig, make your
00:38:22
gig worker companies, Uber Lyft instacart doordash to keep using
00:38:29
their gig workers as contractors rather than employees and
00:38:33
appreciate it overturned or superseded a previous law that
00:38:37
the legislature State Legislature had passed, which
00:38:40
had required. These companies to treat them
00:38:43
more like employees and give them benefits.
00:38:45
And this kind of push them more towards contractor status and
00:38:48
made them. Frankly, less expensive, but
00:38:50
also and the over us originally overwhelmingly Favored it,
00:38:54
right? I mean it wasn't like 59 to 40
00:38:57
50 % Li I've written in favorite of it as disclosure.
00:39:03
Anyway, what do you think of the sort of the broader media's
00:39:08
coverage of prop 22? I think that, you know, there
00:39:10
were, there are obviously Outlets covering 22 and sort of
00:39:16
broader worker classification issues that have points of view.
00:39:21
I'm like, that's cool. You know, I think the the that
00:39:27
is y'all can tell me better. I'm not like the world's leading
00:39:30
historian of Journalism but like it's it's not you know uncommon
00:39:36
for there to be Outlets that have a point of view.
00:39:39
There are less than a point of view on the left on the right.
00:39:41
What have you, you know, I think When you're covering policy
00:39:51
issues, whether it was, you know, the passage of a B5 which
00:39:53
is the the bill that the Tom referenced that had passed in.
00:39:57
Oh God, can't time. Keep me honest.
00:39:59
This summer of 2019? Yeah.
00:40:02
Yeah, it was right before the election.
00:40:03
Well, the auctioneer. Yeah.
00:40:05
Yes. Is the Dynamics, it was Dynamite
00:40:08
lives. People really don't know down
00:40:10
the road is steep, but I'm sure you've got.
00:40:13
Yeah, we're gonna do a bonus episode.
00:40:14
We can just talk through the long fascinating history of all
00:40:18
of these, which goes back to life. 2014, actually a Dynamax
00:40:21
was a, a courier service. Not even related to these
00:40:26
companies specifically everybody has stopped listening.
00:40:31
So you know, I do think when it's when it's an assessment of
00:40:35
those kinds of whether it's a worker classification, policy
00:40:38
issue, you know, like And I promise you act like I'm not
00:40:43
adding the point but like having dealt with us at the White
00:40:45
House, like there were other like very hot button policy
00:40:48
issues. That folks sort of like is
00:40:51
clear. I mean, reporters went to
00:40:52
afflict the comfortable Comfort, The Afflicted, and in their
00:40:55
view, certainly drivers or The Afflicted.
00:41:00
And, you know, to be against prop 22, you have to come to a
00:41:04
conclusion of what what's right for drivers.
00:41:07
But I do think Justin, how who's attracted to Reporting and in
00:41:13
sort of the prerogatives of reporting, I think reporters are
00:41:18
pretty much set up to be against prop, 22.
00:41:22
And sort of probe, never worked at Forbes or fortunate.
00:41:26
Why would give Bloomberg? Are you getting me non non union
00:41:29
workplace if there ever was one? So yeah, they're certainly
00:41:32
corporate corporate meeting. But what's interesting with I
00:41:34
think all the coverage of Labor from the mainstream and non
00:41:38
mainstream press is that I think they missed the story.
00:41:41
Tori. I think you can you know
00:41:42
non-controversial issei and especially that was the case
00:41:45
with the Amazon, you know, unionization effort which failed
00:41:50
even worse than the prop 22 opposition.
00:41:54
If you would only read, you know, a couple of outlets that a
00:41:56
lot of people tend to read, you would have thought that both
00:41:59
were going to be extremely in favor of the workers.
00:42:02
And, you know, there was a lot of I think self-examination
00:42:05
after the facts reflection, whatever in newsroom saying how
00:42:08
how did we miss the story so badly that we would have made it
00:42:11
Seemed like this was going to be a huge victory for labor.
00:42:14
And in fact was quite the opposite and I think that's what
00:42:17
you're getting at. Eric that like this maybe
00:42:19
reflects just the ingrained biases that journalists have
00:42:23
maybe as part of Union's themselves or you know the
00:42:26
natural inclinations of being a reporter which is to like you
00:42:29
say you know root root for the love.
00:42:32
Yeah and I well and I would say time I think, you know where we
00:42:37
spent a lot of our time before during Is it like it before
00:42:42
during and after 22, you know, and are continuing to advocacy
00:42:47
elsewhere, it like but it was for like again, I'm I am yes, I
00:42:53
work at doordash. So like, you are getting my
00:42:55
spin, but like I am also a, you know, taking off my professional
00:42:58
hat. Like I am a Democrat.
00:42:59
Like, my background that we've talked through like is no secret
00:43:02
to anybody and I wouldn't, you know, be be at a company like
00:43:07
this, if I didn't feel comfortable with it, like
00:43:09
they're there are enormous Societal inequities that are
00:43:13
absolutely worth talking about and how gig work is treated and
00:43:19
regulated. And what is expected of
00:43:21
increasingly powerful platforms is absolutely inappropriate.
00:43:24
You know, debate instead of conversations to have and nobody
00:43:28
at doordash would tell you otherwise but you know what, we
00:43:31
do here very consistently in surveys of Dashers in what we
00:43:37
see in the data is like the choices that folks are making
00:43:40
and why they are doing this and that they that this like these
00:43:45
are folks who are overwhelmingly looking for small increments of
00:43:49
work to cover gaps in their finances from other jobs and
00:43:55
like we are, you know, I do think that that In particular,
00:44:04
sort of the survey data that shows that in the other things
00:44:06
that show that like, I don't know that that's always given
00:44:09
the weight. That I think that those that
00:44:15
those workers would want for it to get.
00:44:18
Well yeah I didn't catch a body in that broader understand.
00:44:21
The companies have the data, the best data on workers the types
00:44:26
of workers and then I think people tend to be skeptical of
00:44:32
the independent surveys. I mean, most of them are
00:44:35
commissioned by the companies. I mean, I do think it's sort of
00:44:38
suspicious that the pro-labor side really can't produce.
00:44:42
I think a lot of surveys that show the drivers are on their
00:44:45
side, but you know, it is sort of like your you're going
00:44:48
against your intuition which is, you know, drivers getting
00:44:52
employee status is good for them or you trust the companies which
00:44:56
I think a lot of left right left.
00:44:58
My name is trust, right? Try any of us.
00:45:01
It's not about trusting, right? Well, thank you talk about data.
00:45:05
It's just like the data comes from the company's, so, so data.
00:45:08
And the companies are sort of synonymous, well, in my hand.
00:45:13
Yes, I don't, I don't know that I necessarily agree with that.
00:45:15
I mean, I am even think about some of like, You know, I think
00:45:21
I'd look, I just I think it's to Tom's point of like, when you,
00:45:24
you know, when you look at some of the results here that that
00:45:29
see that, you know, whether it's that like don't seem in keeping
00:45:34
maybe with what you would understand.
00:45:36
If you read some of the coverage that it's, you know, it's a good
00:45:39
conversation to have of like, what's what are the other
00:45:42
elements worth considering and taking into consideration?
00:45:44
It's like, I don't, you know, it's not about like take my word
00:45:47
for it, as A person from doordash.
00:45:51
I think the public, you know, these are super important
00:45:55
topics, like, the way in which work is changing the way in
00:45:59
which Tech platforms intersect with Society.
00:46:01
In the economy, these are super important and they should be
00:46:04
topics of debate and conversation, not only with
00:46:07
voters, but with lawmakers, like I don't think there's any I will
00:46:10
never disagree with that. And and, you know, we're going
00:46:14
to even getting back a little bit to the conversation about
00:46:17
like direct versus going through the media, like we're We're
00:46:20
going to engage everywhere, you know, and like we're gonna keep
00:46:23
having the conversation with, with media and we're going to
00:46:26
keep telling the stories directly, but I do think, you
00:46:29
know, I think that there were sometimes there can be a.
00:46:33
Maybe this is also where you were going a little bit, Eric of
00:46:35
like a perception within Tech of like, is there a reflexively
00:46:39
negative portrayal of the of the industry, right?
00:46:44
And like we get, you know, happiness or talk about that.
00:46:47
But like, in some ways, Yes. It's both a worthy topic of
00:46:52
conversation and doesn't matter because like you have to engage
00:46:56
like a healthy. Fourth estate is good for
00:47:00
everybody. It is good for society.
00:47:02
It is good for the economy. It is good for workers and
00:47:06
companies and voters and everyone and everyone should
00:47:10
want there to be robust coverage and accountability and covers
00:47:16
that were that like that does Shed light on things, both
00:47:21
positive and negative, all that should exist.
00:47:24
And if you don't, if you don't engage with it, like that's the
00:47:26
wrong place to end up. I'd loved my goal is to always
00:47:29
be in the, in the, in the first place.
00:47:31
This is my Pro media bias, but I feel like we should end there.
00:47:35
We love to have people, come on and tell us, it's our favorite
00:47:39
anytime we also like to end up in the quickest, but what's
00:47:43
always been the good place together?
00:47:44
If Facebook Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye, goodbye.
00:48:08
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. Goodbye.
00:47:56
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye, goodbye.
00:48:08
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. Goodbye.