Yes, we talk about Facebook's metaverse announcement. And yes, Eric takes the techno-optimist point of view while Katie and Tom are completely befuddled why anyone would want to spend their time there. But also, we discuss whether the announcement actually buried all the Facebook paper scandals, why Frances Haugen's turn to release her documents to multiple outlets was a jolting move for any reporter, and how whistleblowers are now just another version of influencer culture.
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Welcome. I used to cover Facebook like
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nominally. Like, I would get invited to the
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Facebook connect. Thank you, guys, ever go.
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We why would the FAA part? Yeah.
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Oh yeah. The what Back when Mark used to
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walk around with lick security guard, sort of off in the the
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office they had an amazing spread of like roast turkey and
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delicious food and nobody was eating it.
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I made this huge plate was so awkward because like a cocktail
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plate, too. But I piled it very high and
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went and sat all by myself and then Tom came up for her.
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I was eating alone in the corner because, yeah, I don't know.
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I just pretty quickly assess that we weren't going to get any
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real information out of the executives were there that
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night, right? But the food was good and they
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had said we also had a giant donation, a bin full, you know,
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like Facebook employees at a donated things to charity and I
00:00:59
thought it was like I thought it was like, the swag that again,
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we started rummaging around it and these days, like one,
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Facebook toys, a Facebook employers, like yeah, cool.
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Like a soccer embargo and robots and, and I told one out in a
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Facebook employee was like, dude, what are you doing?
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That's the classic Tom. Yeah, that's the last days of
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partying to this amazing f8, the developer conference, right?
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Right. Yes.
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Of8, you know, ends up comes out there and he gives his speech
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and they talk about the new products.
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He's going into Instagram and Facebook, and then there's
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always like a section where they talk about the Oculus products
00:01:35
and, and the all the different, you know, not augmented reality
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but like the altar, you know, whatever like like Second Life
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Products that they have, but they were all out and I would
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always tune out during that section, it was always the least
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interesting and relevant to the business and like I wouldn't
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have expected at my 2015, that that was going to be the whole
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company. Like that one section that
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everybody didn't pay attention to was secretly.
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The only thing that he cared about this whole time, Is it
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that he biggest surprise though? Yeah, a lot of watching that's
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just worst from the company's issues and problems.
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Yeah, it shouldn't have been a surprise but anywhere for tell
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me your argument, well, you know, my call my column, this
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week was basically saying that, you know, tech companies have a
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long tradition of using futuristic technology to
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distract people from their issues, you know, obviously
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alphabet, you know, literally Google changed, its name, they,
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you know, promised us life, extension and Fabulous.
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Us new cities and self-driving, cars and amazing connected
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homes, and like, very little of. It has panned out and then Uber
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basically copied the model with some of the same people and
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said, a while, flying cars. And we'll also have self-driving
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cars and they did that. And, you know, that help sort of
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juice it and lifts president promised, I think most of their
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vehicles would be self-driving cars by this year which
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unfortunately hasn't happened. So, you know, I think, you know,
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the argument is that there's an obvious Sort of distraction
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quotient to this and that the media basically can't help but
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play into it because we're addicted to these stories, no
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matter what. And it's not even that the media
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isn't sufficiently skeptical because you know, like we're
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writing the column saying this is bullshit, but it's just like,
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there's a fatalism to if this is what Facebook is talking about
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where is dragged into it. So I guess the idea that I had
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was fuck it. It like okay, everybody, you
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know, it's a second-order sort of concern.
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What if we just like argue about the actual sort of first order
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sort of meta verse plan thing and buy in to the whole conceit
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like DUI? Because I don't think there's a
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big fight over whether or not everybody agrees.
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It's a distraction a key distract from the fact that the
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companies you know, being right it's like so self-evident and
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yet we're still like it still happens is a weird like we're
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on, you know Like why can't everybody just ignore and say?
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Oh it's just like fucking face, right?
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And actually get to the essential issue of whether or
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not people would want to live in a meta verse.
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I mean I think that people like human contact.
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I think they actually enjoy things like being in rooms
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together and sharing genuine laughter.
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I think they like touching one another.
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They like having sex they like you know, emotions that only
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come from being a in groups of small, small groups, or large
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groups of people. And I just don't think that's
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all replicable in the metaverse. Outside of his surrogate outside
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of a surrogate played by actor who played it in her.
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I can't remember who played Scarlett Johansson.
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Well, that was the voice. I mean I even think like getting
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to this point of whether or not people are willing to accept the
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metaverse almost allied's past the point that like the
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technology required for this to be at anyway, close to what Zach
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was explaining in this just isn't there, but that's what I'm
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talking about, right? Like everybody knows well, never
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replicate the things that we like, about living the things.
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Like about living with other human being.
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I disagree with that suck about being around other human beings,
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but the things that are really great about are pretty special
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and they're not, there's no technology that replicates the
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feeling of being at a party and having a really good time.
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I don't know. I'm bullish on the metaverse.
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There's an interesting way to explain to me like what jurors
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what variable actually had did. What part of will be fun?
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Like I'm willing to accept it. Incomplete theory that.
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Yeah it would be fun to be able to in a limited sense.
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Feel like you're next to someone that you couldn't be for one
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reason or another. But first of all, the standard
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the kitties setting that until it's as good as sex.
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It's not going to work. I mean, first thing that, I
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mean, I think that we even found you to be better than work
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together was satisfactory. It's not satisfactory, but we're
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still doing it. I think there are a lot of weird
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but we're recording this on Zoom, right?
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People are not attending well because we physically can't
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cities, right? But we're prioritizing That over
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finding real people. You know, like in everything
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there are trade-offs but that's different from wanting to live
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in the metaverse. It's different from saying I
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voluntarily, I'm going to spend my leisure time there.
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I don't voluntarily, spend my leisure time with you guys on.
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Well, it could be where I think work is a big use potential, use
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case and video games. Like people play video games
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there in sqd, right screen digital spaces.
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Like people spend a lot of time. I spend a lot of my time in
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front of a computer. If I got to keep the the clothes
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that I bought in fucking Fortnight in the costumes and
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what so that the gaming everywhere else.
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So I look you like that, that that seems good.
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Like if I were in here with a bunch of shiny things mean, you
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guys, you know, jealous and laughing.
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That's like the Stepping Stones of it.
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I know that's, it's like the Katie's like, this is most
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pathetic like thing in the world.
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But I do think it's incremental. No, I don't think it's pathetic.
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I agree that it's incremental, I just don't think that A world in
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which people given the choice between spending a lot of their
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time in the meadow verse and spending a lot of their time
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with other people would choose the metaverse.
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Now, I think you're right applicate, there's probably work
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application business application.
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But again, like, we're working business application.
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I mean, if that was a goal, we already have zoom with that but
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that's always been the cop-out. For all of this technology is
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like, well let's just make it work for business.
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I mean like if you follow the river like with second, Life.
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There were like, well people will start setting up stores in
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Second Life, buddy. Merchants in Second Life.
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Oh, like the economy within it. I mean that's a whole other
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thing that's like people. Apply the economy.
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I think we're pretty close. I mean, entities are already
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getting us? There were already we have
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people playing nft games in the Philippines where they're making
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money playing those games. Like just just the fact that if
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even if it's just delusional money provided by tech companies
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that there are going to be people, you know, not just like
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World of Warcraft, weird sort of like but like people who are
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doing Jobs in a fully digital space to make, you know, like
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that's amazing. Like and I feel like that
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transition is that is closed and I think that is a pretty
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radical. I mean, economies are powerful
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and once people can make money in a digital space because
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they're producing things or holding things that people want.
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But this is the cart before the horse, right?
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Like you have to have a critical mass of people who are actively
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choosing to participate in this reality for the economy to be
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me. That's why infps are amazing.
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They're like, If initially the cart, before the horse right
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there, literally buying the objects when they're just text
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or for. There's some standard broker who
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accepts them. Also, yes, I agree with you.
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It's insane but like part of the effort to get around, this is
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literally, we're going to sink money into it before it even
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exists. Basically to do what you're
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saying to put the cart. Before the horse.
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I mean, that's like, that's like the completely logical and like,
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a pragmatic explanation for nftl.
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I think the one that I buy into more is that people just have a
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lot of money and like, Hang on shit and feel like they can have
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it for a lot of money but like it seems to me that there are
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two kind of sides of the spectrum here that they're
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trying to make meat in the middle of like regular people.
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That that's like, where I don't get it.
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Because in one sense, we have business, right?
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Like a, you have people that are like, oh we can do more
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efficient meetings with people all over the world by
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pretending, they're next to us, rather than doing shitty
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conference calls resumes. And then you have like the
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gaming World, which is like hyper connected people that have
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already sold into a world where their friends ends are people
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that they communicate with playing, whatever, Fortnight or
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OverWatch. And then like not that gaming is
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small and not the business is small, but the world that sock
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is explaining here is one in which were like, we've bought
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into it. Like there's the efficiency of
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connecting people over the world, and there's the social
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aspect of gaming. And I just think there's a huge
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hurdle to get to that point where people in the middle are
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going to be that interested in either either use case and with
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the technology, not even being close to good.
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It almost makes me wonder aside from the distraction element
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that Facebook is, you know, also pushing for here why anyone
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cares like, why are we talking about this so much right now,
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this reminds me so much of the flying cars and like, please, I
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could not give any fucks about the flying cars.
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Call me, call me, call me when they're in the air.
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Well, the reason is because people like to fantasize, I do
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think it's dilute it doesn't make sense, especially for the
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media and like professional media.
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People are worried about business to think about these
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Technologies so far. Our out.
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Like I do think that's that's irrational and the fact that we
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just like, we are trying to think of there were like uber
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obsessed with seasteading for a while.
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There were like there were all these weird debates.
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We would like fall in the actually I I'm still really
00:10:47
interested in see static. You want to live on an oil rig,
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didn't you see the Saudis? We're trying to think of like an
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amusement park in oil rig? Just I mean I just I think the
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idea of living sort of in this like extra territorial space,
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it's like not Country. I mean, that was a part of think
00:11:02
Scientology had going for. Yeah, I think that is actually
00:11:04
an interesting idea. Hey, everyone to feel like
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they're out on the Seas. Should we should we turn towards
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the, the media asked? I guess we sort of already did,
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but there seemed to have been like, a couple of specific
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controversies that have come up in the post metaverse discourse.
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Like you got interviews was shocked or what?
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Yeah, basically that. And, and if and when they did
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it, did they ask the right questions that they should have
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give. Oh yeah, the Ben Thompson one's
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And I started tweaked him in my newsletter today.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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So basically, you know, there was sort of like two big,
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Facebook news dumps that happened this week one was the,
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you know, the Consortium, right? That was this week, right?
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That's Monday. When like, oh my God, wait, was
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it really your right time? Well, it sort of broke over the
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weekend, right? And the whole Friday, it's crazy
00:11:51
that just happened, right? But right, so on Monday, they
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started having like the drip drip of stories coming out from
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what I really liked from Ben Smith.
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All of that. Casey Newton suggested they call
00:12:02
it the leftovers because it's basically what it was right.
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It was like the stuff that the journalists like deemed not
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worthy of part of their series like got collected in the papers
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and then Francis Haugen's extremely skilled and Savvy.
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PR team, you know brought together a bunch of news
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organizations to analyze it and kind of incoordination put it
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out. And so there was all kinds of a
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can ringing about like who is included and you know what, the
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value of these kind of second, you know.
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Sloppy second stories were and then there was the duck
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interviews in which he spoke to see if I can get off.
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The top of my head here, he did interviews with the information,
00:12:38
The Verge start a curry and Thompson, what else?
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Hey Casey, you got one, I wasn't sure.
00:12:44
I think he got Andrew Bosworth and then was there anyone else?
00:12:48
I think there may be one or two more but it wasn't the New York
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Times. It wasn't the Wall Street
00:12:52
Journal was in The Washington Post.
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So now because the times the journal and the post were going
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through the leech company document, right?
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Virgil was the only one in the Consortium, right?
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That also got an interview. I think somebody said that.
00:13:05
Yeah, yeah, that's that's right. So, that's you know, it wasn't
00:13:08
like, I don't know if it was specific penalization.
00:13:11
It fits into our theme of whether the Big Beat reporter
00:13:14
should get interviews as we've argued about before.
00:13:17
I think that there was probably a higher chance that they would
00:13:19
have done interviews if they hadn't been writing stories
00:13:21
saying that the company was evil and destroying democracy, I just
00:13:24
seemed like it feels that way to me.
00:13:26
It feels like that. Yeah, yeah.
00:13:28
I mean, I think, just on the, the first, on the Consortium
00:13:32
reading been story and having spoken to people at the journal
00:13:36
about it before. Been story came out, I think I
00:13:38
would be extremely distressed if I saw one of my sources say,
00:13:44
it's been great working with you.
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But now I'm going to take this and kind of just work with a lot
00:13:49
of other people because I didn't think you did exactly what I
00:13:53
wanted. He did.
00:13:53
Maybe that would that would be really like that kind of source
00:13:56
management would be tough. Yeah, you know, like I don't
00:13:59
know. The Wall Street Journal got such
00:14:01
a big story out of the, they got a great story but I think that
00:14:04
when you're working with a source who is really forthcoming
00:14:09
with information, your hope is it that's not the end of your
00:14:12
relationship with them. I think he wanted to write for a
00:14:15
book. It seemed like their series was
00:14:17
over. They continue to give
00:14:20
information because I think that I would just say for me if I
00:14:25
were to write a series of Stories on the topic that I
00:14:27
thought was important about say the His Department.
00:14:30
I don't think of it as, okay. Well, I've packaged up for great
00:14:34
stories and that's it. I actually want to continue to
00:14:36
get information right about the department.
00:14:39
Hopefully, from the person who was helpful to me, right?
00:14:43
I mean, part of it, not to flatter you too much, but you
00:14:46
seem like the dominant justice department of where I feel like
00:14:50
in tech there. Just like so many.
00:14:53
It feels like they can get other good stuff whereas staying with
00:14:56
like the top reporter on the beat He's in like the sources
00:15:00
interests in some ways. I mean, there's like a tactic
00:15:03
there's tactics but that but that's what was so interesting
00:15:06
about this is that you could argue that because say in an in
00:15:10
hypothetically, because I don't know, Jeff and I don't know what
00:15:13
their relationship was like, but hypothetically, if she had a
00:15:15
good relationship with him, people read The Wall Street
00:15:19
Journal, incredibly widely, particularly the kinds of people
00:15:22
who you want as a reader who will have that, you know, the
00:15:26
particularly the people who can force some sort of Impact around
00:15:30
the company Regulators. People in business investors,
00:15:34
they are reading the Wall Street Journal.
00:15:36
So, in a hypothetical world where the two of them have a
00:15:38
really good relationship. You could imagine a world where
00:15:42
the jury would be at least in the journals interest to keep
00:15:44
this Source happy. Right.
00:15:48
And but it seemed like a heat and keep her feeling like she
00:15:51
will get as much out of simply just working with the journal as
00:15:54
she will creating an enormous Consortium of like doesn't
00:15:58
Publications. Whoo-hoo.
00:16:00
All right, completely unoriginal stories because they're all
00:16:02
amplifying the same five thing. For one of her issues I thought
00:16:05
was Facebook's failure to moderate in developing countries
00:16:10
to the same degree that it was and the US.
00:16:13
And then that wasn't one of the major hits in the journal story
00:16:17
and knowing the journal. It does seem like a place that
00:16:20
isn't I mean to their credit. Almost like that isn't willing
00:16:23
to do like fan service to their source as much.
00:16:26
So I do wonder if there's a degree to which they sort of Did
00:16:29
their series they didn't hit what she wanted with.
00:16:32
That story have been with that story of been a bad story for
00:16:35
the journal to do. First of all, you should have
00:16:37
done it in the main series if that was their Source has also
00:16:40
issued. Every I don't I think it's weird
00:16:43
to think about investigative journalism is a series, I think
00:16:47
of it. That's how they bought.
00:16:49
They packaged it. Everyone, its packaging.
00:16:52
Stories is one thing. People package stories for all
00:16:55
sorts of reasons, but I think the mentality of okay, we wrote
00:16:58
Our Force Stories. And now we can just move on.
00:17:02
If you really believe that you want to interrogate our, why
00:17:07
would you think of it that way, that that made no sense to me?
00:17:11
That would be like me saying, well, I wrote a few stories
00:17:13
about January 6 and, you know, March and April.
00:17:16
So I think I did it, I'm done. That was very well would be
00:17:19
very, which is she's laughed. She left, she's not a bell and I
00:17:23
bear. It's hard to know.
00:17:26
I mean, I guess we don't know if the journal initially when they
00:17:29
got the It's they thought we should be the ones to own it or
00:17:32
they just sort of said, you know, we're going to take what
00:17:34
we can get from this person who clearly had a motive not motile
00:17:37
to your motives, but she had a plan on what she wanted to do.
00:17:39
I mean, we kind of could tell several days into the series
00:17:43
that oh, she was going to testify cancer is dumb question.
00:17:46
I should know the answer to, like, was it obvious in the
00:17:49
journal story? That it was like a key
00:17:52
whistleblower like they didn't presented that.
00:17:53
Yeah. Because they said in their
00:17:55
stories in the sourcing of their stories they said according to
00:17:58
documents, From a whistleblower that have been given to the
00:18:01
hill, like, that was often the execution right.
00:18:04
Felt like they didn't present it as like, I don't know.
00:18:06
I wasn't as personally obsessed about The Whistleblower reading,
00:18:09
their series, as I was just about, like, the claims,
00:18:12
whereas, if she wants to be a celebrity that's successful for
00:18:16
them to say, in an ideal world is about the claims and not
00:18:21
about Devin the personality, but there we go.
00:18:23
But you think that was a mismanagement on the part of the
00:18:25
journal? It just seemed that Francis.
00:18:27
How good was it thing? I'm not saying even that it's a
00:18:29
myth. On the part of the journal I'm
00:18:30
saying that if I were the reporter I would be a little
00:18:35
distressed. Yeah.
00:18:37
To see because I wouldn't think she just gave this package of
00:18:40
papers to Congress. She gave me a sneak preview so I
00:18:45
could break them and package an interesting series.
00:18:49
I would think this is a person with whom I'd want to have an
00:18:51
ongoing relationship for a variety of reasons.
00:18:54
Because sources are not only people who bring us information
00:18:58
sources of people who helped us vet information.
00:19:01
There are people with whom we discussed story ideas but
00:19:04
fundamentally a great source is more powerful than a good
00:19:07
reporter at this point and the trusting relationship goes to
00:19:10
way. So the source trusts us to keep
00:19:12
their identities, secret to the extent, they want to be secret
00:19:15
and we also trust them to not tell other reporters when we are
00:19:20
working on a story and we call them and say I want to work on a
00:19:24
story right now about Margot over at Andreessen Horowitz and
00:19:27
you trust that source that you speak with Eric tonight.
00:19:29
Get on the fucking phone and then call Casey and say, Eric,
00:19:34
just called me and said that he was working on a story.
00:19:36
Well there are also people you do think are you doing that?
00:19:39
And yeah and yeah, I don't consider them my sources but
00:19:43
what do you do in those? So fine so she's not really
00:19:45
their Source. I mean she effectively used the
00:19:47
journal as a way to get her message out in the way that
00:19:50
benefit me. The journal did independent
00:19:51
reporting to kind of back it up and, you know, fill it out in a
00:19:56
way that would give it more credibility than just a document
00:19:58
dump. But what do you do in the case
00:20:00
of a reporter where you've come across a source?
00:20:02
Who's got an axe to grind, which he does.
00:20:04
I mean, it's for the public good, but this is fundamentally
00:20:07
her campaign and you're like, okay, I'm going to get these
00:20:11
documents but it's only going to be exclusive for certain amount
00:20:14
of time, but it also didn't seem from Ben Smith story that they
00:20:17
were aware. That it was only going to be an
00:20:19
exclusive for a certain amount of time.
00:20:21
They were in shock on the phone call and like Jason Dean their
00:20:24
editors had. This is very awkward, I just
00:20:26
think it's hubris they had a huge crack at it like And I
00:20:30
don't agree with you, I get what you're saying.
00:20:32
I think you have a bunch of better pitch to a source, whose
00:20:34
soda justice department are still in the loop of the justice
00:20:37
department. What do you because?
00:20:39
It's like the all of my sources are at the justice of sure.
00:20:41
It makes zero sense. Okay.
00:20:42
Okay. Wherever that wherever they're
00:20:44
like just that you're the think the capital right story for
00:20:47
example, just feels more ongoing like allies Facebook Stories are
00:20:52
like, looking back at past practices, whereas an
00:20:54
investigation is on going? Well, that's the interesting
00:20:57
thing to do. You think that Facebook has
00:20:58
changed their Practices. Do you think that anything these
00:21:01
stories are framed as like this is what happened at this date,
00:21:05
whereas like an investigation this Source has a clear reason
00:21:08
to know why they would have more stuff.
00:21:10
I'm mix on, I don't know because like the January 6 attack is
00:21:13
literally looking back. A lot of the Scoops are about
00:21:15
the nature of the investigation. Had there been subsequent
00:21:18
attacks on the capital that I didn't hear about Eric.
00:21:20
Holy shit, I should get off the phone, I should get on the
00:21:23
phone. But what do you do?
00:21:24
If you, you know, even into it at this point that you have a
00:21:27
source that is going to go wide? In some way or start talking,
00:21:30
other reporters. No idea.
00:21:32
All I can drop that would be really distressing.
00:21:35
Oh sure. It's incredibly stressful.
00:21:36
That happened to have the the experience of talking to a
00:21:40
source and you have this feeling in the back of your head, I
00:21:42
think they may be talking to someone else and you kind of
00:21:45
have to say. All right, let me be strategic
00:21:47
here by what I tell this person. Like maybe I'm better than other
00:21:50
reporters so I can use them in a more effective way.
00:21:52
But fundamentally this changes the relationship and it's not
00:21:55
like we wouldn't or haven't gone to other people's sources.
00:21:59
And said, oh, I think I could tell this story.
00:22:02
Well, you should talk to me to the, I mean, I know they're
00:22:05
reporters who tell source of specifically do not tucked.
00:22:08
Other reporters, do not do that. I think that sucks.
00:22:10
I think that's weird. Okay, I don't do that.
00:22:12
I think that's weird II. Don't tell them not to because
00:22:15
you can't control them. I think it's bad that it's all
00:22:20
so pathetic. Like it just kind of reveals the
00:22:23
grade, right? Exactly a purpose behind
00:22:25
scoopage and wanting to own a story.
00:22:27
We really want to talk about. I feel like We if you got to do
00:22:30
this job for like decades, you know, you're not going to scoop
00:22:33
every story. Like you got some things are
00:22:35
just maybe, maybe that's not the winning attitude.
00:22:38
I'm supposed to bring to my job but it's like this is a long too
00:22:41
long too long race. You know, right what is it
00:22:43
projecting? That is a good strategy but I
00:22:45
mean looking at the whistleblowers I mean have you
00:22:48
seen some of these Tech whistleblowers on Twitter who
00:22:50
are very angry that that they didn't get like worshipped like
00:22:54
she did and it it's not a good look for them.
00:22:57
It looks very like they. Want it to be about them.
00:23:01
It is part of some larger cultural shift where we are.
00:23:04
Just so all influencers. If yes, get me.
00:23:08
Everything is so self-centered just in culture in general.
00:23:12
And how much of that is Instagrams fault.
00:23:15
Well, that's the only frame that I can understand the current
00:23:18
whistleblower, boom, but this is like, you know, it's just it's
00:23:21
just a different niche of influencer.
00:23:23
I mean, my mind is literally worked right now because I just
00:23:26
finished. The Susan Sontag biography the
00:23:28
eighth good. You In Page biography of Susan,
00:23:31
Sontag by Benjamin Missouri. But I mean you can't read that
00:23:36
thing and not you can't read that thing in the 21st century
00:23:39
especially when so much of it is about you know like note on Camp
00:23:43
and on photography and not think about her writing in the context
00:23:49
of something like Instagram, you know.
00:23:51
Basically her making this like huge cultural argument that
00:23:54
people are still arguing about. You cannot study photography
00:23:56
without thinking about Sontag still arguing about.
00:23:59
Whether or not the camera is a weapon and whether or not, it's
00:24:03
like a form of like there is a theft there, and there is a way
00:24:07
in which people lose control of themselves through image, and
00:24:10
then to turn that camera on ourselves again.
00:24:12
And again, every single day willingly, I mean it is very
00:24:17
difficult to think about her cultural critique of Photography
00:24:21
and not wonder how it has played out in this like exponential.
00:24:26
I say, thanks to Instagram. Anyways, I totally total
00:24:31
digression. But no, no, but not really
00:24:33
though because it is any wonder that you have whistleblowers on
00:24:36
writer being like, but I wanted to be the 60 Minutes
00:24:38
whistleblower, right? And then to frame our jar,
00:24:42
frustration with the Whistleblower sort of turning on
00:24:44
the Wall Street Journal. It's just the Classic reporters,
00:24:47
being mad. That influencers are like
00:24:49
fucking everything up tweeting. I threw it.
00:24:52
Like it's like why isn't it more controlled?
00:24:54
Why isn't there just sort of like it's the same Dynamic
00:24:57
outside of whistleblowers? Why was I don't think it's that
00:25:01
simple. I don't think it's just like
00:25:02
being upset because you don't get your way.
00:25:05
I think it's saying if this means there's a fundamental
00:25:08
shift in the way that sources see themselves, vis-à-vis.
00:25:12
The media does that mean that the media has to make some sort
00:25:15
of fundamental shift in the way that it sees how it deals with
00:25:18
sourcing right at me like you don't you don't honor your
00:25:21
agreements, you always honor your agreements.
00:25:22
But does that mean, for example, the you that the best way to do,
00:25:26
you know, investigative work is in the She model, which, which
00:25:30
definitely predates these Facebook Stories, right?
00:25:33
You had the Panama papers, that was a Consortium model you've
00:25:36
had mean. Like this has happened before.
00:25:38
You've seen Publications, like propublica consistently Tina,
00:25:41
team up with other papers, like the guardian, like, the New York
00:25:44
Times Like NPR. So I so it's not new.
00:25:46
It's just like, okay, well, if this is the shift that's
00:25:48
happening on the sourcing side, does that mean on the media
00:25:51
side? There needs to be a shift.
00:25:52
Yeah, that's the right way. I agree with that framing
00:25:55
totally. And also I think like the
00:25:57
framing of Answers as, you know, the base, superstructure of how
00:26:02
these people, you know, view their role is incredibly
00:26:06
relevant because they are talking to us.
00:26:09
They like everyone, so media-savvy, like, that was sort
00:26:11
of like, the big revelation of influencer culture.
00:26:14
Was that people understand the concept of audience of fandom of
00:26:19
distribution and I think because everyone that's on social media.
00:26:22
Understands these things whistleblower is included or
00:26:25
whatever employees that become whistleblowers included.
00:26:27
They know when spots talking to her Order.
00:26:29
They need to frame it in a certain way.
00:26:31
That gets Maximum Impact. Yes.
00:26:33
And like, so I'm talking to, you know, a lot of people I read
00:26:36
about this company, go puff, which is this like delivery
00:26:39
service. Oh my God, we obsessed with her
00:26:41
go puff stories. Yeah, so, I mean, one of the
00:26:44
people that was talking to me recently, like, giving me all
00:26:47
this inside information about like the complaints that
00:26:49
warehouse workers have and bicycle, you know, sorry that
00:26:52
and drivers have, is she saw that?
00:26:54
I was verified on Twitter and she was like, she's like, oh
00:26:57
you're famous. Oh my God.
00:26:59
Which is like, I didn't really want to push back on her that
00:27:02
like, you know, a lot of reporters get verified, a lot of
00:27:04
X reporters remain verified. It's a pretty useless reckon,
00:27:08
but because I had that, I'm sure that's one of the reasons she
00:27:11
was willing to talk to me so much because she saw it as like,
00:27:13
oh, I'm I'm reaching big distribution here and it's, that
00:27:17
kind of savviness that runs through all people these days
00:27:21
that is, like, I think absolutely responsible for like,
00:27:24
you know, whistleblower culture and like, you know, Wars among
00:27:27
whistleblowers and people wanting to Fashion themselves in
00:27:30
that way. It's crazy.
00:27:31
It's totally crazy. I wanted to touch on Katie's
00:27:33
question about like, how the media reacts.
00:27:36
I mean, I would say to me like the most high-minded solution
00:27:40
would be if we could be less obsessed with who published like
00:27:46
the initial fact, it was gonna say like, the culture of like
00:27:48
credit. For Scoops is very, very, very
00:27:51
intense and the tech right reporting World in a way that
00:27:55
it's less. So, I mean, in other player, I'm
00:27:58
not saying that reporter. Everywhere don't do it but like
00:28:00
really pretty, like a whole investigative project can be for
00:28:04
investigative project to go viral.
00:28:05
It's still very helpful to have new facts that aren't known to
00:28:09
the public. Well, of course, that's
00:28:11
reporting and but there's a degree to, which if it's like,
00:28:13
you put all the pieces together and have the narrative and have
00:28:18
obviously, you have new facts but they're the sort of B and C
00:28:21
plot facts. Not like the, I don't know.
00:28:24
The like I mean the Instagram case with the teen girls, right?
00:28:27
Like you have this study out. Like say that study comes out in
00:28:32
some like, quick piece at Forbes or something.
00:28:36
Like, if the journal turns around and writes the story
00:28:39
thoughtfully like they did. It just has less impact because
00:28:42
we're sort of addicted to who got the detail out.
00:28:46
And I mean, that's why Outlets front run and Sarah stories in
00:28:49
the past that social media made women feel bad and there was the
00:28:54
empirical evidence of women talking about it online that it
00:28:57
made them feel bad. So, I mean, it's It wasn't a new
00:29:00
condom me, this was powerful because Facebook knew it was
00:29:02
powerful because Facebook what the story was saying.
00:29:05
The Facebook knew this internally based on their own
00:29:08
research and lied about it. Yeah, I'm still iffy on what you
00:29:12
know about that story, but that's a whole different can of
00:29:16
worms but the metaverse nobody owned that story.
00:29:20
Although, although there were the Scoops about the fact that
00:29:22
Mark was going to be announcing it in.
00:29:25
Oh yeah. I mean what?
00:29:27
Which that is going to eat. Alex, he's breaking the Change.
00:29:29
I mean, terms of like single fact, scoop that's it's big and
00:29:34
it's not culturally, but it's just like, it's certainly one of
00:29:37
the new cycle that evening and then right was 00 pop if your
00:29:40
job is to get a bunch of people to think your name and their
00:29:42
brains, it was a very successful scoop I don't know if that's
00:29:46
really the job but yeah, succeeded on that metric.
00:29:49
I'm very skeptical of the I mean I think that it is good to be
00:29:53
competitive and important to get Scoops and it is essential in
00:29:57
our jobs. And but I Terms of like what we
00:30:00
do for a living. I think what we do for a living,
00:30:03
it's such a cliche but we write the first page of history and
00:30:05
then we are forgotten like we're not we're not a thing anymore.
00:30:09
Like we're not going to be a thing.
00:30:10
We're just, we're delivering like the raw material that like
00:30:14
a historian, who is a thing is going to use.
00:30:17
So that's, that's why you gotta gotta get the opinion game here,
00:30:20
you know? Yeah.
00:30:21
I don't think I don't think that's any more last.
00:30:23
I'm trying to move away from the the Raw Deal scoop and more.
00:30:27
And I mean, framing things up. I mean I want least arity be one
00:30:31
of the nine hundred million different.
00:30:37
I think it's becoming its commoditized.
00:30:39
I think it's more like time and thoughtfulness are what will be
00:30:44
the most important things? And like those are those and I'm
00:30:49
actually just totally fine with it like like named me the person
00:30:53
who got us all the Iran-Contra Affair Scoops.
00:30:56
He got none of us person, right? But those were Really, really,
00:30:59
really fucking important stories.
00:31:01
And it doesn't make it less important just because
00:31:03
literally, no one can remember the name of the person who broke
00:31:05
the stories, right? See where you really need.
00:31:08
You need an infrastructure to self, mythologize the scoop you
00:31:11
break is soon as you break it so that it gets into the history
00:31:15
ography right away. You and Francis Haugen come back
00:31:20
together. Yeah, well, I will say, my first
00:31:22
reaction to the 60 Minutes interview that she gave and she
00:31:25
started tweeting, she made a Twitter account and she was
00:31:27
like, you know, I released that whatever it was.
00:31:29
Like announcement of herself as part of 60 Minutes thing.
00:31:31
I looked at her follower count, it was like, 4, I'm like,
00:31:34
ooh, Francis not good enough, you're not what she?
00:31:38
I know. It's not great, honestly,
00:31:41
really? You know, I don't know how much
00:31:42
he's paying her PR team but it's not the kind of work she'd be,
00:31:45
you know, she looks kind of a CPR team.
00:31:48
Yeah, she clearly does. I think these Scoops are over?
00:31:50
I like I think in six months we're not going to be talking
00:31:53
about her. I mean, 82 I don't know, I
00:31:56
know sometimes journalists Dancing with the Stars.
00:31:59
Next right. Right.
00:32:00
I would assume you know, assuming you know that they
00:32:03
bring production of Puerto Rico. She should, she should
00:32:05
definitely be considered mean the journal had high impact
00:32:08
stories and I agree with Casey. The rest have been left over as
00:32:12
right. Does it me disagree with that?
00:32:14
Yeah, I honestly haven't read them.
00:32:15
So I'm going to, I don't know, she's eighty two thousand five
00:32:19
hundred followers. That's okay.
00:32:21
That's okay. I'm going, I'm going to follow
00:32:24
her now. Click there, 80 2501, there's an
00:32:28
mft. Account.
00:32:29
I follow that has way way above that.
00:32:33
Like, what? She tweeting about now like
00:32:34
succession or like, what's, like, what's next?
00:32:37
That's always a funny thing about these people to me like, I
00:32:39
followed it, you know, Snowden. And you know, that guy's, he's
00:32:42
pretty committed to the bit, you know.
00:32:43
He's still living in Russia and, you know, so only because you
00:32:46
can't come back, right? Yeah.
00:32:48
That's probably, I think he's committed to the bit.
00:32:50
I think he's just in. Exile.
00:32:52
Yeah, but that's the thing about a whistleblowers.
00:32:54
You got to think. Like, all right, I'm past this
00:32:56
point, you know, Chelsea Manning for example, I mean that's been
00:32:59
a Pretty difficult transition from being whistleblower to go
00:33:02
into jail to coming out. Yeah, because when you're, when
00:33:05
you're disclosing classified information, it's a little bit
00:33:08
different than taking a bunch of documents from Facebook, right?
00:33:10
Fortunately for us corporations, don't yet have statutes
00:33:15
dedicated to Prosecuting people who take information out of
00:33:18
their corporations, I don't want our conversation to be read is
00:33:21
talking about jealousy manicure Snowden.
00:33:24
I feel like they're in. Yeah, and it's very separate,
00:33:26
that's sort of a different kind of case.
00:33:27
The Lange she has Nine tweets. I mean it's just you're not
00:33:32
going to get a lot of engagement at that level.
00:33:33
They got to be really good tweets.
00:33:34
Each time you just gotta eat one has five to each one, seems have
00:33:40
five to ten thousand retweets. She's tuned.
00:33:42
Okay Twenty-One thousand retweets.
00:33:44
That's a high hit rate, it's a good rate.
00:33:46
I just I just kind of in 80 followers with just nine tweets,
00:33:53
that's pretty good. Have you like our citizens
00:33:55
beside Eric, you can't tell me you were not even mildly
00:33:58
entertained by the fact that Is she like is a crypto
00:34:00
millionaire. Well, yeah, he lives is a great
00:34:02
been. Smin is the best, probably the
00:34:05
best journalists out there right now.
00:34:07
I mean, he's killing it, at least on topics.
00:34:09
I'm interested in that's gonna say, what part of it is just
00:34:12
that the journals boring, you know.
00:34:14
It's just not their sensibility, like you wouldn't they do, they
00:34:18
have anyone who's writing that type of story there?
00:34:20
I'm sure they, well, they don't, but they don't have that.
00:34:23
I mean, like basically Margaret Sullivan, I'm Ben Smith are very
00:34:27
different in the way that they approach, like, being a medium.
00:34:29
Media columnists, and like pretty much anyone else friends,
00:34:31
having a good time. And he's also asking the
00:34:33
questions, you know, specifically about Francis that
00:34:35
I was amazed. No one really asked before that,
00:34:37
which is like, What's your deal? Where is she right now?
00:34:40
How does she have the money to make this work?
00:34:41
Well, people are starting to wonder, I do think there is a
00:34:44
motivate these people, the omidyar thing at already come
00:34:47
out. So then there were real
00:34:48
questions about she was making her money.
00:34:51
And I do think she's like, oh, I have my Bitcoin money, but then,
00:34:55
I mean, they're paying for, like her lawyers.
00:34:57
Still, I you think there was a little bit of Downplaying, how
00:35:00
much immediate arrow is a big player in her apparatus, which,
00:35:05
even if it doesn't affect her sort of personal wealth, the
00:35:08
fact that she's not having to spend her personal.
00:35:10
Wealth is a Big Boon. I mean, I'm not that cynical of
00:35:14
her, but I do think they were, like, messaging games going
00:35:17
around that whole circumstance. Exactly.
00:35:21
All right, how do we wrap this one up?
00:35:22
Eric are you think the media has has so much ketchup to play on
00:35:27
influencer culture? I like Was why I think the media
00:35:31
should stay away from influencer culture.
00:35:32
We should not. I'm cheerleading for them to
00:35:35
collide. I don't want, I'm not an
00:35:36
influencer. I'm just I'm like I'm mining.
00:35:39
Little pieces of information, and putting them in the public
00:35:42
and then someday, I'll retire. That's Eric, is I want, I want
00:35:45
them to be the same like, but think about it, from the
00:35:48
journalistic perspective. If influencers and journalists
00:35:51
are held to the same standards that puts him, I mean, you know,
00:35:55
to Circle back on something and we were talking about Ben
00:35:59
Thompson. As trajectory interviewing Mark
00:36:01
Zuckerberg and Tom and I were having this argument about
00:36:04
whether he should be held to the same standard as journalists or
00:36:08
not. And I think he's playing the
00:36:10
role of a journalist. He's interviewing Mark
00:36:12
Zuckerberg! Hold him to the same standard.
00:36:14
When is that Galifianakis interviewed Barack Obama on
00:36:17
Between Two Ferns, was he supposed to be held to the same
00:36:20
standards of journals? Just who's interviewing
00:36:21
somebody, when Oprah Winfrey interview, somebody should she
00:36:24
be held to the same standard as a reporter Because She
00:36:27
interviewed them, this is absurd.
00:36:29
Word. No, that's why you take your ass
00:36:31
to those people to be interviewed.
00:36:33
And you don't take your ass over to the Washington.
00:36:35
Post in Marty Baron, who will Grill, you like journalists?
00:36:38
There's a reason for this? No I don't think that Mark.
00:36:41
What's his face? Should be held to the same
00:36:44
standard for the only standard is that you maintain your
00:36:46
shtick. So Dylan Byers is like I'm
00:36:49
sucking up to you because I always suck up to everybody
00:36:52
that's not that's not criticize about and that's why that's why
00:36:55
somebody that's why somebody would go to Dylan Byers, hoping
00:36:57
to get that treatment. Ali, but it's not criticize a
00:37:00
bowl because that's his stick. Yeah.
00:37:02
I don't think it's, I don't think you should be held to the
00:37:04
same standard as Marty Baron. No, no.
00:37:07
I don't think Oprah should be held to the same standard as
00:37:09
Marty Baron when she's interviewing Megan.
00:37:10
What's her name, Markle? I don't like it.
00:37:13
There's clearly a threshold say there was like, a key fact, we
00:37:15
needed to know from like, Mark Zuckerberg they could be asking
00:37:18
the question and the only thing he goes to his Between Two
00:37:21
Ferns, you don't think it's like, criticize the Wolves a
00:37:24
cough and a kiss. Doesn't try.
00:37:26
Try to get an answer. I think the choice is more
00:37:28
criticize. More than the actual I think
00:37:30
that. Yeah.
00:37:30
I think the choice is criticized Apple.
00:37:32
I think what Zuckerberg trying to do by making the choice is
00:37:35
criticized Apple. But I don't think that everybody
00:37:38
should be held to the standard of a beat reporter at a major
00:37:43
publication or an editor like a Marty Baron ordained by K.
00:37:46
That's fucking crazy. The whole reason you're going to
00:37:49
Oprah is because you don't want Oprah to ask the question that
00:37:52
Marty would ask. Well, I guess what what that
00:37:55
requires is that we the audience still has the ability to tell
00:37:58
the difference I guess. Is between sort of money here
00:38:01
audio. I mean, I hope that the audience
00:38:02
could tell the difference between Marty Baron that
00:38:04
Galifianakis and Oprah Winfrey. That's my propun prayer.
00:38:07
And then we have people like Dylan Byers, who try to pass as
00:38:11
one thing will be another. I don't know you guys you guys
00:38:16
don't watch reality television but I mean you know I've never
00:38:18
said I didn't hear you know, after having a podcast you have
00:38:21
to have a second podcast about your like little hobby.
00:38:23
You know I want a Survivor podcast or you need to start
00:38:26
thinking now about what the it like this.
00:38:29
Second one, this sort of lighter and just expanding our brand
00:38:32
personalities. Is because because that's
00:38:34
coming, Eric unit charges money working with your friends video.
00:38:41
Listen we need to build out. Kitty, you have your fast, it's
00:38:44
that you're not mining for content right now that that are
00:38:47
appealing to an audience. And oh my God, I have like a
00:38:50
normal person's job dude, I'm just like a little you're
00:38:55
letting in my living charm. Go to waste only way your
00:38:58
friends. Enjoy it.
00:38:59
Not not monetizing. I just think it's sad.
00:39:03
I know sometimes I just like having friends.
00:39:06
This is a generational issue. I think it is because I'm
00:39:09
fucking old. Yeah, yeah.
00:39:10
I think the fact that Katie doesn't believe in like mining
00:39:13
all aspects of her personality till she's just an empty husk
00:39:17
willing to be filled by whatever PR person for the fans.
00:39:20
Mining her personality, till she's an empty husk for the fans
00:39:24
can't because it seems to be working out so well for other
00:39:26
people who've done that. Yeah, the point is that we want
00:39:29
the Answer take equity in us personally.
00:39:31
And so I do. So, can we do an mft?
00:39:33
Yeah, that's that's I think we're all ultimately headed
00:39:35
isn't once? Yeah, I would do that.
00:39:37
You have a little kitty cat as our image if you don't think,
00:39:40
and if T is no, we own that too. Listen, I'm not.
00:39:44
I don't decide that I don't, I don't objected digitizing
00:39:50
something about the podcast and having Eric salad,
00:39:53
unfortunately, per our contract, all the proceeds accrue to him.
00:39:57
No, not that podcast know that I didn't specify.
00:40:01
Yeah, this podcast is mutually the audience that gets driven to
00:40:04
the newsletter. That's Eric's, but the people
00:40:06
that love us for us, those are, those are legitimate.
00:40:09
Those are people that we have equity and, or they have equity
00:40:11
in us actually. And once, once the true nft
00:40:14
crypto Market takes hold, and people can start trading their
00:40:17
ownership of Eric. Katie, and me, I think that's
00:40:20
when they're the true large as happens.
00:40:22
And that's when we finally transition from journalists to
00:40:24
influencers and and the cycle is complete and we're probably more
00:40:27
powerful is because of it. And people Don't hold us to
00:40:29
journalistic standards that we've already established think.
00:40:32
Yeah, I feel that's a good, a place as any to end Silicon
00:40:43
Valley. So work on Sally, goodbye.
00:40:56
Goodbye. Goodbye.
00:40:58
Goodbye. Goodbye.
00:40:59
Goodbye. Goodbye.
00:40:59
Goodbye.