Hosts Tom Dotan and Eric Newcomer speak with longtime Hollywood reporter Richard Rushfield, who launched his newsletter The Ankler in 2017. Rushfield told readers he would be “giving Hollywood the business,” describing his unsparing newsletter as “the newsletter Hollywood loves to hate and hates to love.”
Now, Rushfield has broader ambitions. A splashy New York Times piece announced that he’d teamed up with Janice Min, the media executive responsible for reinventing both The Hollywood Reporter and Us Weekly. Substack is helping to fund their growth as The Ankler joins Y Combinator.
Almost immediately drama ensued. Variety, the Hollywood trade publication and Ankler rival, ran a headline on Dec. 16: Janice Min Loses First Hire at Ankler Newsletter to Rolling Stone (EXCLUSIVE).
It just so happened that Jay Penske, who was desperately trying to keep star reporter Tatiana Siegel in his media ecosystem, is the owner of Variety, Rolling Stone and Siegel’s employer The Hollywood Reporter. Meanwhile, Min insisted on Twitter that Siegel intended to join The Ankler.
The blowup only seemed to firm up The Ankler’s insurgent posture and the threat it posed to Penske’s Hollywood media empire. We spoke to Rushfield about the contentious launch. We also talked about some of the biggest stories in Hollywood right now, including Netflix employees protesting Dave Chappelle and the backlash to the Golden Globes.
Get full access to Newcomer at www.newcomer.co/subscribe
00:00:05
Welcome to work on Sally. Welcome everybody to this week's
00:00:15
episode of dead cat. I'm here with Eric newcomer, as
00:00:17
always, and with us, our special guest, buddy of mine, Richard
00:00:21
Rushfield of the angler lot to talk about in Hollywood and
00:00:24
Beyond, thanks for joining Richard great to be with you
00:00:28
gentlemen. So couple Things that I wanted
00:00:31
to go over and why we're excited to have you on.
00:00:34
So, Richard is the founder and chief writer.
00:00:37
What's your actual title at the angler these days now that it's
00:00:40
a company. So I was the, I was just, I was
00:00:45
just, I was, I was the Heckler and now I'm Chief columnist and
00:00:51
editorial director. Okay.
00:00:52
So, Chief columnist and editorial.
00:00:53
Director of Hollywood newsletter the angler, and I'm just going
00:00:56
to say the time I'm excited, we've got some, you know, X
00:01:00
going big here. We've got like media drama so
00:01:03
it's going to be and then we can talk Hollywood at the end.
00:01:05
So everything you want honestly, like having a little Conflict at
00:01:10
your launch is probably the best thing you could have wished for
00:01:14
so happy. Maybe, maybe you disagree.
00:01:16
It's causing you anxiety. But happy to get into that.
00:01:19
Yeah, yeah. So why don't, why don't we just
00:01:20
lay that out at the? For our listeners who maybe
00:01:23
didn't follow every step of this conflict as it unfurled in the
00:01:27
last couple days, explain to me like your Plans with the anchor,
00:01:30
which were exciting on their own and then the spicy stuff that
00:01:34
followed. So I've been doing the angler
00:01:38
for 44 years now and say it's been a one-man newsletter about
00:01:43
the entertainment industry really written for people in the
00:01:46
entertainment industry. And about a year ago, I was
00:01:50
approached by it by Janice Min. It was this legendary, am the
00:01:55
creator of the the bottom Hollywood Reporter and really
00:01:59
just the the the greatest editor of working up in the Hollywood
00:02:05
media prior to that the genius behind the rebranding and
00:02:08
relaunch of Us Weekly Absolutely giant himself a a to for someone
00:02:15
to have one success in these days, is immense, but she has
00:02:20
have two giant successes. So that's I don't think there's
00:02:24
anyone out there who has that has that record now.
00:02:28
So she approached me about it about a year ago and had the
00:02:31
idea. She was a reader of the angler
00:02:34
and someone I've known. She she said you've got this
00:02:37
great Grassroots following in the community.
00:02:39
What if we can? Build on that and build
00:02:43
something bigger to to go into the Corinth you're like you're
00:02:47
the number three, sort of business sub stack on sub stack.
00:02:51
You gave me advice before I launched you launch it like
00:02:54
2017, right? So you've you've been building
00:02:56
this like following a Hollywood and you sort of position
00:02:59
yourself as the Voice who is willing to go against the grain
00:03:03
in a very controlled Hollywood, media environment is that, is
00:03:08
that how you would position it? Yeah, well, that's what got me
00:03:11
into it. It was that because the people
00:03:14
covering Hollywood and had become a kind of very safe,
00:03:18
controlled gland environment for covering, and I just thought
00:03:24
there was something, there was space for something with sharper
00:03:28
elbows and at a more sardonic and fun wave of wave approaching
00:03:35
the news year. Yeah.
00:03:37
And I would say and we'll get into the conflict in a second,
00:03:40
but largely the reason that it has become such a safe and
00:03:43
controlled environment is because the trades are, you
00:03:47
know, you know, pledge fealty to the masters of Hollywood and are
00:03:51
essentially Public Relation arms to a degree of the agencies and
00:03:56
of the media companies. And it seems like more often
00:03:59
than not do their bidding to present them and their business
00:04:02
policies and strategies and as positive a light as possible.
00:04:05
Right. I mean this is This is kids
00:04:07
gloves. Kids club stuff, most of the
00:04:09
time. Well, it's been in a time when
00:04:13
media has been really in decline, in traditional media,
00:04:17
particularly and increasingly desperate to grab onto any, they
00:04:22
read, they can, they've just become increasingly a, meshed
00:04:27
and behold in with, with the the, the Studio's they cover.
00:04:31
And so many different ways like they that not only they need
00:04:35
them for ads and or Are completely dependent on the ads,
00:04:39
but also for the exclusives, for the cut for people to covers, to
00:04:44
get to get the studios to participate in their
00:04:47
conferences. And it's kind of this whole game
00:04:50
with a captive audience of just just milking everything out of
00:04:55
it. And it's sort of on the the in
00:04:59
the things that they think about their, the readers have become
00:05:03
involved, like number 20th or something, and you're it.
00:05:07
I'm primarily a subscription-based business.
00:05:09
I mean, you have some Oscar campaign stuff, right?
00:05:13
I mean what? But the goal here is to be
00:05:15
subscription-based going forward, right is.
00:05:19
All right? It's going to be a mix of
00:05:21
subscription and subscription and and advertising.
00:05:26
The we have the we have this Oscar advertising category but
00:05:29
it's all built on the subscription platform.
00:05:34
There's if you if we don't have a vigorous healthy Caption
00:05:37
business and and don't have people buying subscriptions as
00:05:41
we don't have anything else. So I don't know what percent
00:05:44
ultimately what was your thing and you there's a certain
00:05:47
argument that you know, you get to a certain level in some stack
00:05:49
and that's exactly when you should hold on because you know
00:05:52
you're getting sort of the profits for yourself.
00:05:55
You know, media companies are low margin businesses on the
00:05:58
other hand experiencing myself you know, it's hard to run a
00:06:01
business on your own to be on your own.
00:06:03
Like what was what was sort of you're thinking how much was it?
00:06:07
It, you know, building a big company versus having other
00:06:09
people to support you or what was sort of your Calculus and
00:06:13
abandoning sort of being all on your own.
00:06:16
I mean it really starts with me. I I saw there's there's
00:06:19
definitely a business opportunity but always starts
00:06:21
with me. Like is there a chance to do
00:06:23
something interesting? And there's is there a
00:06:25
compelling Challenge? And I just thought there's
00:06:27
there's it was just especially when I started talking when
00:06:31
Janice it was just kicking ourselves every week at the
00:06:34
story that aren't being covered in the things that aren't
00:06:37
Reginald dying like, like wish wish wish we had a reporter.
00:06:40
I could do this or someone that could take this on.
00:06:43
And as a one-man show there's I could I was only able to take on
00:06:48
a piece of, of all the great stories and amazing things
00:06:51
happening out there. So I just it was, it was really
00:06:54
just feeling there's a chance to from the perspective from the
00:06:58
the angler trademark perspective to go to reach a bigger
00:07:04
experience, right? So you've At this, you know,
00:07:07
voisey fun, critical Hollywood newsletter.
00:07:10
You've got Janice approaching you saying, hey let's let's
00:07:13
really blow this up and turn it into the next big media Outlet
00:07:17
in Hollywood, covering the space.
00:07:19
And then things get pretty funny last week.
00:07:21
So explain to me, you know, you're big launch day, you get
00:07:24
some placement in the New York Times and then what happens
00:07:26
after. So, we had this wonderful
00:07:29
announcement that, that, that Janice was joining the angler
00:07:34
and becoming the editor of it and taking After becoming a
00:07:38
partner and ownership and that sub stack was funding us to
00:07:43
through subset program to grow and expand and start to build
00:07:47
something a bit larger. And also we announce that our
00:07:51
first. Our first reporter that we're
00:07:53
bringing on, who was touching on a sequel, who is who Janice work
00:07:58
with back when she was editors thr, and who I've known for a
00:08:01
long time and is one of the one of the great reporters on the
00:08:04
bead right now, we're just, you know, we're all World friends
00:08:07
with her and we're thrilled to have her come aboard and then
00:08:10
made the announcement. So great.
00:08:12
And then the next the, the day that follows her, her current
00:08:16
employer, Jay Penske who owns all of the Holly host, kind of
00:08:20
built up, a little Monopoly there.
00:08:22
If he owns deadline variety and thr dollar over, that's insane.
00:08:28
Talk about. It's a one meter.
00:08:30
Yeah, it's a one-man town. It's crazy.
00:08:32
It didn't use to be like this. I mean, this is a slow
00:08:34
consolidation over 52. I didn't have The idea honestly
00:08:38
like pre this whole Saga that he was so Consolidated.
00:08:42
Yeah, he's scoop them all up and I think there was antitrust
00:08:47
investigation when he when he made it The Hollywood.
00:08:51
Reporter purchased, I don't know what came of that, but it's
00:08:55
pretty in terms of coverage. It's pretty amazing at to have
00:09:01
it all come from this one corporate headquarters submit
00:09:05
with the window. Real competition against each
00:09:08
other anymore or anything, so a day.
00:09:12
So us. So, if you've got a monopoly,
00:09:15
the, you know, this little this little upstart newsletter, which
00:09:19
is just two people looking to become three.
00:09:22
You wouldn't think would be what would, what would ruin your
00:09:25
life. But apparently at seem to really
00:09:27
get to him because the, the following day, he announced to
00:09:31
thr. Employee meeting that taught
00:09:34
you. I'm a seagull would not be
00:09:36
coming to the ankle or That she was, in fact going to Rowling's
00:09:40
moving to Rolling Stone and other Penske media publication
00:09:45
following, which variety what can only guess it was instigate.
00:09:51
They should put out a uncharacteristically sort of
00:09:55
snarky nasty story exclusive. It was a it was a huge scoop.
00:10:01
Yeah, exclusive Janice Min loses first ankle or higher.
00:10:07
Of the angler has left the company.
00:10:08
It was a weird story to read, you really had to understand,
00:10:11
you have to understand all the drama.
00:10:13
It was hard for me to even parse the story.
00:10:15
It was so weird like this. Well, the little problem in all,
00:10:20
this is that Tatiana seagull hadn't agreed that she was going
00:10:24
to Rolling Stone, and they wrote the story without talking to
00:10:27
her. And she had after our
00:10:32
announcement, Jay Penske had We shall to her reacting.
00:10:40
She had she had given node, she had given notice properly react
00:10:44
very badly, the news and informing her that she she has
00:10:48
six months on her contract left and we believed that she was
00:10:52
under Captain to California employment law.
00:10:56
You can't force people to work against their will when they
00:11:00
want to stay there. And whatever the law is.
00:11:02
I've never heard of anybody doing that to a journalist.
00:11:05
You know, what is the deal with these?
00:11:06
He's employment contracts in Hollywood, press like a Jessica,
00:11:11
lessin, the owner of the information who I think is an
00:11:13
investor. And you write tweeted about how
00:11:15
she'd she'd had had a legal battle with Sharon Waxman.
00:11:19
Yeah. Yeah, the problem is, are all
00:11:21
too close to eight. They all work to close to
00:11:23
Hollywood, so they think they should operate, like, a
00:11:25
Hollywood studio. And so right with the with with
00:11:28
hollywood-style you're under contract with Paramount Tatiana,
00:11:32
you gotta, we got 10 more films in you.
00:11:34
That's like the tech media, you know, wants to become investors.
00:11:37
Is Annie Hollywood. Yeah.
00:11:38
They act like it's interesting how it's a career things.
00:11:41
Are Louis mayor. Yeah.
00:11:42
It's the dream of every Hollywood journalists to be
00:11:45
like, taken seriously by by Studio Executives.
00:11:49
That's all day. That's all they longed for, but
00:11:52
it's not Studio executive anyway.
00:11:54
So so yes, he claims that he has, you know, this reporter
00:11:58
under contract. And because of that, I mean it
00:12:01
sounds to me like he's basically telling her like, you know,
00:12:03
listen to us. You're stuck here for the next
00:12:05
six months, so better. You know, better kick on over to
00:12:08
my other publication Rolling Stone because you're not going
00:12:10
anywhere. He said something along those
00:12:12
lines, privileges that conversation, but something
00:12:15
about that and her response was okay.
00:12:18
Let me talk to my people and I mean, see what my options are
00:12:23
and while she was talking to people and seeing what her
00:12:25
options were he publicly announced she'll be doing this,
00:12:28
which is, which is odd, if someone announced you were, you
00:12:32
were taking a job that you hadn't signed on.
00:12:35
I'm too. That's you know, if it's someone
00:12:40
else you were taking a job at a place, you would specifically
00:12:43
given notice to and said, you would tend to leave when.
00:12:46
Anyway, it's it's it's been for us it's been a great little bun
00:12:52
and publicity in the community, right?
00:12:55
Talk about proving that you're the insurgents, right?
00:12:58
You're scaring the right people. Yeah, I mean it's just very fat
00:13:01
we're a two-person operation looking to become a three-person
00:13:04
operation here and she is coming.
00:13:06
Or you're still confident that you've got your third higher or
00:13:10
third person. We're sorting it out.
00:13:12
But one way or another tough day on a seagull, will eventually be
00:13:16
part of the ankle or story. That's, that's great.
00:13:18
And and look, I mean, and you guys also is part of this are
00:13:22
going to be joining Y combinator, which is interesting
00:13:25
because I was just before this, looking up, how many media
00:13:28
companies have gone through Y combinator?
00:13:31
And it's a broad category, obviously there's a lot of
00:13:35
gaming companies that have but I Picked out two, we got you got
00:13:38
Reddit and what does retic count as a media company II was
00:13:42
thinking more like, just Publications because, yeah, I
00:13:44
mean, there's plenty of gaming, I thought there was a sort of
00:13:47
well, these the athletic in Indian DSP and let it come.
00:13:50
Yeah, that went through the athletic came through there and
00:13:52
they've obviously done really well though.
00:13:54
They keep trying to sell themselves very publicly.
00:13:56
I don't know what that's about. May I know what it's about.
00:13:58
There's definitely as we met our batch and we're the only.
00:14:03
Yeah. We're the only sort of
00:14:04
publication, or media come. Yeah.
00:14:05
It's the athletic. And this other publication
00:14:07
called the Juggernaut, which is focused on Southie.
00:14:10
Yes, occasion. But if you think about it in the
00:14:12
light of It's Not Unusual for yc2 back, a company that's
00:14:15
trying to build a business on the top of one of its own
00:14:18
companies, sort of showing that, you know, that company
00:14:21
interesting platform. So that it's a half-length, the
00:14:24
happy Synergy. And hopefully, our success will
00:14:26
be good for good for some stack also.
00:14:29
So do they own a bit wins? Is it?
00:14:31
Do you have you have a cap table now, right?
00:14:33
If you're going to y c, this is now a sort of Equity holders and
00:14:37
everything like a startup. I mean, it's all Now by Jennifer
00:14:42
myself with YC taking their standard safe state that you
00:14:46
give them as being part of the program.
00:14:49
But anyway, I mean, this whole episode with Penske to me is
00:14:54
very revealing about this. I mean, everything that you're
00:14:57
trying to build with this, which is that, it's a one, it's a
00:15:00
one-horse town, as far as media ownership goes.
00:15:03
And, you know, you could say, well, I mean, do you think you
00:15:06
think that's contributed to the sort of soft coverage and the
00:15:10
need for what? I imagine you.
00:15:11
And Janice believe which is like there is definite space for more
00:15:15
critical more incisive, less beholden to the Masters coverage
00:15:21
of Hollywood these days. Yeah I mean there's still a lot
00:15:24
of people that work in Hollywood and people like to read about
00:15:26
their world and their industry and people Beyond Holly would
00:15:29
like to read about our religion and its industry.
00:15:31
I don't took it's a it's a it's a wild exciting place in the
00:15:35
middle of you know, No, cataclysmic.
00:15:37
Change at a really important time and it brings together the
00:15:41
questions of culture and finance and everything.
00:15:42
And there's there's great characters and great
00:15:45
personalities and great stories to tell every day.
00:15:48
So we think there's huge room for for a company to, for a
00:15:54
company to come in and start covering that in telling those
00:15:57
stories in a really insightful fun and, and fearless sort of
00:16:03
way when you talk about like the You know, compromise nature of
00:16:09
trade coverage in Hollywood. And the fact that these
00:16:11
companies are beholding to the studios for exclusive
00:16:14
information for access to the celebrities in the executives
00:16:19
profiles. I mean, what's your path to
00:16:21
avoiding that? Because it seems like there's
00:16:23
money there. And so, it's very tempting.
00:16:26
I imagine to say, look, maybe we should kind of go soft on Bob
00:16:30
capek right now because that would kind of endear us to.
00:16:33
I understand, it's complicated with media, you never want to
00:16:35
officially only say these things.
00:16:37
But like how do you avoid the pitfalls that have, you know,
00:16:39
really ensnared the Penske Empire as you're building the
00:16:45
angler, was it it from the beginning of time?
00:16:47
Any reporter who works at beach knows knows that that line, you
00:16:52
have to walk between between being doing sharp coverage in
00:16:57
and, and having ongoing relationships with sources and
00:17:01
everything. And when you add in advertising,
00:17:03
that, that gives you another element there.
00:17:08
You know, that I think the fact that were built on the
00:17:10
subscription platform really means that if we don't that it's
00:17:16
all everything and everything is built upon the idea of growing
00:17:20
subscriptions and we, you know, we don't, we don't, we don't do
00:17:23
marketing, we don't do anything and subscriptions grow based on
00:17:27
people like this. And they pass it along.
00:17:29
And as long as people are reading what we're doing and
00:17:34
enjoying it and telling other people to Read it will be a
00:17:37
healthy company. I don't know what percent will
00:17:39
ultimately come from advertising or whatever, but at the bottom
00:17:42
of that it has to be the has to be the Readers first second.
00:17:47
And last that, that determine this and your slogan for a
00:17:51
while, where you were the angler giving Hollywood the business.
00:17:56
And then you would say the newsletter Hollywood loves to
00:17:58
hate and hate stool of The Fearless unvarnished to section
00:18:01
of which really shaking our world today.
00:18:05
Is it now? Don't eat lunch in this town
00:18:07
without it or I'm curious, you know, like are you rebranding or
00:18:11
is there a are you thinking about what sort of broadening
00:18:15
the tone sorry to give a close reading of this?
00:18:18
But as, as a fellow sub stacker, I'm curious.
00:18:20
Yeah. Well I love giving the Hollywood
00:18:23
the business and, and I think it captures the tone that the
00:18:27
downside of it is that it implies, you're all about Uris
00:18:29
business. And we want to be more about the
00:18:32
cultural life of Hollywood. So we're we're looking, we're
00:18:36
looking Or a tagline. That's that's, that's, that's
00:18:39
more about the greater experience that were that were
00:18:42
that, we're looking to cover it out.
00:18:44
When you look at the state of Hollywood these days, I
00:18:47
remember, I mean, I remember when you joined, you know, the
00:18:50
lesson accelerator all those years and by the way, I should I
00:18:53
should I forgot to mention one, we talked about our ownership
00:18:56
that, that the information is also also has a stake in the
00:19:02
angler from from the accelerator where Sarasota, right?
00:19:06
What's up? Stack sub stack doesn't or know
00:19:09
the pro? They don't take equity for their
00:19:11
Pro for the program? They give you, they give you.
00:19:14
I mean, they're really about just seeding the these
00:19:18
Publications and trying to do what they can to make it to make
00:19:22
you grow. But it's they take no equity
00:19:25
stake for it. Incredibly.
00:19:26
That's nice. It's a program.
00:19:28
It's hard to say no to. That's right.
00:19:31
Yeah. But from the earliest days, the
00:19:35
newsletters that you would write, and I've in a reader
00:19:37
since early on that I really loved were you're really taking
00:19:41
Netflix to task for its profligate spending for, it's
00:19:46
just kind of tasteless distribution that, you know what
00:19:49
I mean? Like, they just seem to have no
00:19:50
real taste. They would just got to throw
00:19:52
money out there and put out garbage.
00:19:53
I was the first to foretell the downfall of Netflix.
00:19:56
Yeah, they're doing horribly now.
00:20:00
Nobody remember them, but I pulled all my money out of them
00:20:04
back in 2017. They really went nowhere.
00:20:06
Going like Martin peers and others have been writing about
00:20:09
their debt problems for years and clearly that's been fine
00:20:12
anyway, well they're actually not taking on debt anymore.
00:20:15
I mean, they're focused only on paying it off now so it's a lot
00:20:19
of crow eating I think among some of the media Skeptics, but
00:20:22
I think the stuff that you've written, that, I completely
00:20:24
agree with and it's sort of become the virus.
00:20:26
That's taken over. All of Hollywood is just the
00:20:30
sort of mass approach, like the mask content approach the the
00:20:33
spending absurdly on on shows and And diluting the quality of
00:20:38
the content. And it seems like, you know,
00:20:40
what was once just kind of specific to Netflix seems to
00:20:44
have taken over all the boardrooms and, you know,
00:20:47
executive rooms of these companies and I don't know
00:20:50
what's your, what's your stance on the stream of fication of
00:20:53
Hollywood and like, what it's done to the sort of discernment
00:20:57
and taste of content that's coming out of these, you know,
00:21:00
out of these Studios. I mean it's you know, in
00:21:04
Hollywood For Better or Worse. You know, they're the people are
00:21:08
always trying to find the formula that would tell you what
00:21:11
it was but no, no but no one really managed to achieve that
00:21:16
all the way through Hollywood history and For Better or Worse
00:21:18
was a place where people had to take make gut shan't make good
00:21:22
choices and what they made that made some some some great things
00:21:26
in Morton some horrible things but it was what kept it
00:21:29
interesting. And now you have people
00:21:33
programming or these micro niches and and it's sort of
00:21:37
about the, you know, we need, we need, we need 600 hours of
00:21:41
content to too young to people from ages, 16 to 23 and the in
00:21:49
the Midwest and you're there, you know, buying the content by
00:21:54
the yard and there and you know, you just you just look at it.
00:21:58
Like, even on the one hand in the streaming are like, oh,
00:22:02
there's things being produced that we never would have
00:22:05
imagined would be The goal before and part of part of the
00:22:09
good side of that is diversity and you did.
00:22:12
You're having many more people who never got a chance to tell
00:22:15
their stories before and all this.
00:22:18
I'm on the other on the other side it's just it's there's not
00:22:22
a lot. There's not a lot that's great
00:22:24
through. Yeah and it's it's it's it's
00:22:29
very hard. Yeah it's funny to me when the
00:22:31
column comes out a lot as it tends to these days of like
00:22:35
Netflix only has bad. Stuff or, you know, the quality
00:22:38
overall at Netflix is not good with sure.
00:22:40
Like, on average, I 100% agree with you.
00:22:42
I can't remember the last series I watched on there, but the
00:22:45
other part of it is that there's just so much on there and at the
00:22:47
same time that they'll put out, you know, like the worst reality
00:22:51
shows I've ever seen or come across.
00:22:53
They also have like the power of the dog, which is like, probably
00:22:57
one of the best movies of the year.
00:22:58
So it's like, you know, the high volume approach goes both ways
00:23:01
but it's, it's strange. It's like a strange brand and
00:23:05
consumption. Pants when you have this just
00:23:08
all over the map strategy. Yeah I mean it's a question of
00:23:12
batting averages and it's for traditionally from traditionally
00:23:18
for 100 years, the Studio's put out 20, 20 movies a year and two
00:23:23
of them would be Giants, hits. Two of them would be terrible
00:23:26
flops. And the rest would be somewhere
00:23:27
in between and you needed those hits two more than cover your
00:23:30
flops. And and that was kind of out at
00:23:34
work and now it's The it's that, you know, that that the, the the
00:23:42
number Netflix has some great shows, but the number of shows
00:23:46
that it takes to get to them and we don't can't even keep track
00:23:49
of how many shows and how many movies they put out.
00:23:50
It's like, they're there, you've defined things on there that you
00:23:54
didn't, you didn't know existed. And, you know, I wrote about
00:23:59
Apple and the foundation series, which you know, Mike might well
00:24:03
be the biggest flop in Hollywood history.
00:24:06
And You know, this it might for the the price per per viewer
00:24:12
ratio it, you know, would cost anywhere from 100 to 300 million
00:24:17
to make it and possibly, as little as two people watched it.
00:24:23
So, it's by the show never came out or what or is that since
00:24:27
your as if you was to people or, yeah.
00:24:29
I mean II, the two people is the number of people that I have
00:24:33
evidence have watched it. Two people told me, they I did
00:24:36
and I saw, I've seen no other indication anywhere else that I
00:24:40
would wash it so good evidence as any.
00:24:42
But yeah I single that one out but there's there's 20 different
00:24:46
shows that could be a contender for that that same that same
00:24:50
spot there and it's I mean part of it is one thing that
00:24:56
Hollywood always had was it had a really quick feedback loop
00:24:59
like that a movie opens and you find out that night whether it's
00:25:05
a hit or a flop. And and and that tells you
00:25:09
something and it tells you something about there was a
00:25:11
transparency to it, right? I mean definitely yeah.
00:25:13
Hard to know how some of these and TV TV ratings were were very
00:25:17
clear. What people were were watching
00:25:20
and and there was and there were for the people who made them,
00:25:25
there were there were very dire consequences for for being in
00:25:29
the Flop business and now it's no one knows.
00:25:33
No one knows what said, you know, Apple said, That
00:25:36
Foundation, maybe the biggest flop ever made, but Apple picked
00:25:40
up another series another season so maybe it actually did great,
00:25:44
right? Well, it's a drop in the bucket
00:25:46
for them, right? I mean that's the funny thing
00:25:47
about some of the tech companies, Amazon and apple
00:25:50
really going into this, is that in one sense, three hundred
00:25:53
million dollars, flushed down the toilet would be devastating
00:25:56
for a studio head, but for Apple who does in the tens of billions
00:26:01
of profit every quarter, ah, you know, we got a little bit of
00:26:05
Buzz, maybe me. Even because it was a flop like
00:26:08
that has to kind of mess with the calculus to write on what to
00:26:12
invest in and you know, how committed you are to Quality.
00:26:15
Yeah, it feels like with apple that that it's, it's very much
00:26:20
sort of the Lost leader. It's like the, it's the big
00:26:23
designer that that Target puts in their window to get people
00:26:27
come in and buy cat food while they're there.
00:26:31
It's that, you know, they want to be associated with big glossy
00:26:35
products and I don't know if, if Foundation of costing $200
00:26:39
million dollars. That's, that's probably less
00:26:41
than they spend on an ad campaign typically.
00:26:43
So this is another kind of agreeing that the days of the
00:26:47
the iPod, you know, the office was obviously very key in
00:26:51
marketing that sort of being useful for them.
00:26:54
How would you rate the tech companies as owners of media
00:26:59
this many years into it? Because if you look back at the
00:27:01
history of these media companies or Studios, I should say more
00:27:04
specifically. They usually Have owners that
00:27:07
are not involved in the media business.
00:27:10
Paramount was owned by Gulf and Western I don't have others.
00:27:12
All the top of my head. You could probably name, a
00:27:14
dozen, didn't Coca-Cola. All kinds of people have owned
00:27:17
the studio over the Coca-Cola owned owned the studio oil
00:27:21
companies. It's, it's electronics for
00:27:26
companies its people. A lot of people have come and
00:27:30
gone through the through the studio business.
00:27:34
The tech companies, it's The tech companies is a little
00:27:38
different because you have you have a whole industry coming in
00:27:40
at once, and they seem very much want to want to swallow
00:27:44
Hollywood into their larger experience and and into a, into
00:27:50
a bigger, a bigger story there. So it's not just some random
00:27:55
soda company but or yeah, see credentials.
00:27:59
Another buying buying a buying this because their billionaire
00:28:04
owner was bored and want to new toy.
00:28:08
But I would say, I mean, I would say so are they're putting a lot
00:28:11
of money in, which has been a lot of good for a lot of people
00:28:14
either in a lot of ways. But it's, there's no, like I say
00:28:20
there's no clear. Sense of where this leads and
00:28:25
what is, how do you build something stable ominous?
00:28:28
And that is AT&T, the worst owner, who's the bottom at the
00:28:33
moment. I mean, a TT was pretty got.
00:28:35
It has to be some kind of record for cluelessness, and I mean,
00:28:39
they got out about as quick as anyone ever has.
00:28:42
Which is which, which, which may make them the best owner because
00:28:46
they most companies it takes, they figure out that they made a
00:28:50
terrible mistake coming Hollywood.
00:28:52
And it takes them about, it takes him.
00:28:54
Another decade Jack, admit that to themselves.
00:28:57
And in the meantime they there they flossed Untold about some
00:29:03
money. But but also just the most, the
00:29:06
most obvious train wreck that you and everyone else saw the
00:29:10
moment that the deal was announced that there was going
00:29:12
to be a cultural mismatch here that, you know, Jeff bewkes Who
00:29:17
Sold off Time Warner than to to AT&T was selling a A melting Ice
00:29:23
Cube to this company that he just wanted to get off his hands
00:29:26
and do good by shareholders. And that there was just no
00:29:29
conceivable way that this was going to be some sort of like
00:29:32
some is greater than the, you know, the total is greater than
00:29:36
the sum of its parts or what, you know, whatever the business
00:29:38
of Hollywood is it's not about selling movie tickets or TV or
00:29:44
game. People watch TV shows, it's
00:29:46
about every rich person on Earth and someday, you know, that
00:29:51
everybody watch. Watches movies and some day,
00:29:55
we'll wake up and say, you know what, I could make them better
00:29:58
than these guys and in Hollywood as a whole business, you know,
00:30:04
where this person comes. And says, I've, you know, I'm
00:30:08
the king of pharmaceuticals or I bet it FedEx or or, or I or I
00:30:14
got started a, the world's biggest grocery store online
00:30:18
chain, or whatever it is when they say.
00:30:21
And I think I could show you guys To do this a little better
00:30:24
and I have great taste in movies.
00:30:26
There's a whole all of Hollywood is geared to say, of course you
00:30:31
do. We thank God.
00:30:32
We've been waiting for someone like you with to come and show
00:30:35
us how to do it. Please sit right down, put the
00:30:37
checkbook right though, down there, we'll just just make that
00:30:40
out to cash and we're going to help you.
00:30:43
We're going to help you take over here.
00:30:45
Don't worry. And, you know, most of them
00:30:49
either either a few years or a decade or two later.
00:30:53
I've been had a jury. Had it down wondering what
00:30:56
happened to their Fortune. I didn't sleep with any of the
00:30:59
people I thought I was going to in this job.
00:31:01
They might think they might have gotten that part out of it.
00:31:04
But, at some point, they realize that they're not being given.
00:31:10
I mean, it comes down to our, are the people, are you getting
00:31:15
the best product, the the best movies?
00:31:17
The best shows? Like, are they coming to you?
00:31:20
Everyone's going to tell you that you're getting.
00:31:22
Real stuff here, the real good stuff, that's too good for too
00:31:26
good for us to take the Disney or whatever.
00:31:28
But, you know, it are in the end, the biggest, the biggest
00:31:34
products go where they have the best chance of success.
00:31:39
And and, and, you know, that's been the problem that Netflix
00:31:43
has struggled with that that people just know their stuff
00:31:46
will get buried on that service there and just just for, you
00:31:49
know, this is Silicon Valley show, I'm not following
00:31:51
Hollywood is Mostly is you to for background Tom used to write
00:31:56
for the l.a. BJ, right?
00:31:58
Los Angeles business, journal's. This is why he's obsessed with
00:32:01
Hollywood anyway, Mike just like who are the five?
00:32:03
Most powerful people in Hollywood right now.
00:32:06
I mean if you had to come up with not to put you on the spot
00:32:08
but like if you had to come up with your list of like who the
00:32:11
big characters are and sort of the people that matter in your
00:32:15
Universe, like, who are, who are the key players at the moment?
00:32:18
I begin. You basically have six major
00:32:20
companies right now, which which Apple Netflix, Amazon Disney.
00:32:28
At Warner Brothers, Discovery and Comcast and the heads of
00:32:35
those are the those are the six families essentially.
00:32:40
And then then you have Viacom and Sony that on a smaller
00:32:43
level. But but but those are the people
00:32:47
that that are fighting for the shape of it and, you know, a lot
00:32:52
of people how many think that the dish is death of second half
00:32:55
of that Disney Warner's and Universal will get absorbed into
00:33:00
the first half of that over the next few years will see one of
00:33:05
the big blow ups this year at Netflix was the Fallout over the
00:33:09
Dave, Chappelle stand-up special, which Eric and I have
00:33:13
talked a lot about offline. But it was an interesting story
00:33:16
not just because, you know, there was controversy behind it
00:33:20
and employees at Netflix. And completes complaining about
00:33:24
the fact. How many, you know?
00:33:25
I mean, well, that's my big thing is just like a media sort
00:33:29
of saying that, you know, the protest from Netflix employees
00:33:33
were huge. I mean, Lucas had Bloomberg, was
00:33:36
big on that. And then I was just like, how
00:33:38
many of the people are really protesting inside of?
00:33:41
Yeah. How destabilizing was it?
00:33:43
Do you think not only to you know, what you can gather from
00:33:45
people inside Netflix but also it's a view within the
00:33:48
community. I mean I think you could make an
00:33:50
argument that Ted's around us Sticking with Dave Chappelle,
00:33:54
through all of the public outcry.
00:33:56
Probably endeared him to some artists who said, like, hey,
00:33:58
this guy will stand by very least, his money makers, or the
00:34:02
people that he personally likes, but also, you know, there's a,
00:34:06
there's a, You could argue there's an element of Integrity
00:34:08
to it. There are Executives that would
00:34:10
have gone a completely different direction.
00:34:12
So how do you reflect on the whole Chappelle episode and how
00:34:15
Netflix handled it, and what it means for the company.
00:34:18
Well, so if you look at where where they are at the end of it,
00:34:23
That's special is still on the surface.
00:34:25
Dave Chappelle has, they is head is heading their lineup at the
00:34:30
new Netflix. Comedy Festival.
00:34:32
Other doing it. He'll continue to work with
00:34:35
them. There's no, I don't see any sign
00:34:40
that any subscriptions were canceled.
00:34:43
And even Hannah gadsby who, who called Ted Serrano spy, some
00:34:50
some some Some names in public she hasn't even said that she's
00:34:55
going to refuse to work with them.
00:34:59
So I don't know of any there was there was one show runner who
00:35:08
who said he was going to work with them anymore and was
00:35:10
leaving the show at the beginning of this, I don't know
00:35:13
anybody that followed in his footsteps.
00:35:15
So on some level, you know, on the major level of like did the
00:35:21
protests Shake. Mop you can say well, we're you
00:35:25
know, they they they called caused a little bit of a Ruckus
00:35:30
for a week or so, but where's the evidence that anything has
00:35:33
been shaken on the other level? And you can say you can you can
00:35:39
see this was a warning shot and if you're the people in The
00:35:43
Comedy Department signing the next acts you don't you're not
00:35:49
going to want to put Ted through this again.
00:35:52
So so people are going to be well.
00:35:54
The question is, are people going to be more careful?
00:35:57
You think there was actually a bit of blowback internally
00:36:00
between Ted and the comedy development team, who he sort of
00:36:05
saw them as like, look, I'll stand up for Dave, but like this
00:36:08
is on you guys. You put me in a tough position
00:36:10
here where I had some know. I don't know, I don't know that
00:36:13
he did. He said that at all.
00:36:14
I'm just saying like a chilling effect.
00:36:16
If you were, if you were a scout or development executive and so
00:36:20
yeah saying that. You don't want, you know what's
00:36:24
possible. Now and you don't, you don't
00:36:26
want to be the cause of another one of these and for all I know
00:36:30
Ted, I mean, in terms of standing by his is artist there
00:36:38
two-handed, Ted Ted behaved, very correctly.
00:36:43
He made some, he made some statements at the beginning
00:36:46
about art doesn't affect anything, that will probably
00:36:50
that t.i. think wishes he could, He wishes, he could reframe this
00:36:54
contradictory at a certain point.
00:36:56
Do you have a view on the media's role or, I mean, if felt
00:37:01
did you feel like they, I don't know where you came down on?
00:37:03
Well, Eric. I mean, you have this thesis
00:37:05
that the media blew it up, you have a strong point of view just
00:37:07
that the media was very aligned with the protest.
00:37:09
The employees, right? Sort of a view from nowhere
00:37:13
style, the tries to mask that but then every piece is like,
00:37:17
there's this issue for Netflix but who's really deciding that.
00:37:20
There's an issue for now. Flex, it's the Order of that
00:37:23
story, you know, and the fact that reporters aren't sort of
00:37:26
preferencing. What the mass public cares about
00:37:29
her preferences is subjective Choice, which I think they're
00:37:33
entitled to make. But I wish, you know, to me,
00:37:35
it's sort of a core problem with sort of cultural view from
00:37:40
nowhere reporting where they're sort of denying.
00:37:42
They have a stance even though the position in the piece, makes
00:37:46
it very clear to me. Yeah, I you know, they reported
00:37:51
on this Protests like it was going to be the thing that in
00:37:55
the in the run-up to it. Like there was a decent chance
00:37:58
that the mobs that took over actually going to burn that know
00:38:04
if looks headquarters to the ground and service will go off
00:38:07
the air and land Reed Hastings, would have to leave the country
00:38:11
overnight. And in the end, I in the end it
00:38:14
was the crowd estimate was at dozens and right?
00:38:17
It was it was it was held at one shower across the street from
00:38:20
Netflix. So Dozens were able to come out
00:38:23
for their lunch hour and then they all seem to come back to
00:38:27
soon as the Ledger and to be clear.
00:38:28
I mean I support people taking what they believe to be
00:38:31
principled stands. So I'm not.
00:38:34
Yeah. And I don't want to come out and
00:38:35
testable little laying their stances are or what they believe
00:38:39
in or the fact that they protested.
00:38:41
But there is some proportion. I don't think that the media can
00:38:44
be like very on the team. Well, I'd say it's where every
00:38:47
conversation goes down. It's like there was never
00:38:50
because it immediately became I'm a, you know, not a
00:38:53
conversation about like how do we put up things that are
00:38:57
offensive to some people and and but while still be, you know,
00:39:04
kind to those those communities like can can can can we talk
00:39:09
about things or do we are conversations that off Limited
00:39:12
in it because it that turned around to turn into, should Dave
00:39:17
Chappelle be killed or not and as day and as Ted's around.
00:39:21
Oh, so disgrace. Right.
00:39:23
You know. So it is that that's that's
00:39:25
where all these things go. And that's where the the the
00:39:28
media always wants to take them. And a lot of people have told me
00:39:33
this was a real turning point that this one just sort of
00:39:38
fizzled. So so publicly and so badly that
00:39:42
the next ones are going to get less attention unless it's a
00:39:45
good, we'll see. Right?
00:39:46
In the certainly did encourages the companies to roll their eyes
00:39:49
at protest because they can And that's, that's sort of the flip
00:39:54
side of it. I mean, I've seen, you know
00:39:56
these things come up, come up constantly, I've seen the
00:40:01
companies have gotten much better at dealing with them and
00:40:05
the ones that are good at it. Good at it in terms of, you
00:40:09
know, sort of Crisis management for their own Brands, not not
00:40:15
good for the world or or morally or anything, but the words are
00:40:19
good. I understand that.
00:40:21
Whatever comes The chances that anyone is going to remember this
00:40:26
24 hours from now or very small. So what you want to do is to
00:40:30
private of all oxygen and and not do anything that keeps the
00:40:35
story alive and gives it a gives it another wave and just just
00:40:39
you know things will come up and and for these companies they
00:40:44
they won't even give no Comics. They just suddenly won't be
00:40:47
available for phone calls and they'll just disappear for 24
00:40:51
hours. And then the next day, some
00:40:53
other countries that came up and everybody forgot that they were
00:40:56
mad at that just near warmers you were last thing on this one
00:41:00
is how much do you think the particular conflict with Netflix
00:41:05
was one of Silicon Valley and Hollywood existing within the
00:41:08
same company because purely from the outside is zero reporting
00:41:12
on. And I'm way off the media beat.
00:41:13
Now, it seemed like the bulk of the regulation.
00:41:17
Yeah, it can happen but you know I don't get I don't get why see
00:41:21
funded companies from this. But I felt like a number of the
00:41:25
instigators of the complaint with the Netflix were coming
00:41:27
from the engineering side of things.
00:41:30
I believe the most outspoken people aside from personally
00:41:33
being aligned with, you know, the trans cause was we're
00:41:36
engineers. And I wonder how much of this
00:41:38
has to do with people that have worked in Hollywood.
00:41:41
Sort of understand more inherently that there are going
00:41:45
to be shows that are within the or Products that come out of the
00:41:48
company that you work for that, you're going to disagree with
00:41:51
and it's just the nature. Sure of content and, you know,
00:41:54
comedians especially, but a lot of different kind of aggressive
00:41:58
art will provoke people and it's just the nature of the Beast and
00:42:02
people in Hollywood. Have a better understanding of
00:42:04
that and you wouldn't have like a development executive or
00:42:08
creative executive getting up in arms.
00:42:10
Whereas you know from the engineering side they're still
00:42:12
sort of new to the idea of like you know, when I work at a
00:42:16
Content company there are things all like and things that I won't
00:42:19
like. And you know, it was specific
00:42:21
that this was an effort. Lex issue.
00:42:23
And not say something that came out of like HBO Max, which also
00:42:26
has tons of Sano specials. Now, the other thing about
00:42:29
Netflix is and that that much more part of the tech culture
00:42:33
than the Hollywood culture is Hollywood, is not have any
00:42:37
culture of sort of the young people at the country at the
00:42:41
company, speaking up and sharing their thoughts and speaking
00:42:45
their mind, like, you know, traditionally and I don't even
00:42:50
know if it's traditionally about To this day if you work at, if
00:42:54
you're if you're a person in your 20s working at Studio, you
00:42:59
live in Terror that that then you're going to step out of line
00:43:03
for half a second and be thrown to the street.
00:43:07
They're not, there's not a culture of sort of the young
00:43:11
assistants standing up to their bosses and telling them what
00:43:15
they think. So that's that.
00:43:17
No, they got, they wait till they're high above the company
00:43:19
than they treat their assistance.
00:43:20
The way that they were treated years later.
00:43:22
It's exactly. And you, man, and they leave it
00:43:26
for someone else to say, say, what they think.
00:43:29
So, you know, that's, that's something that that Tech brought
00:43:31
to Hollywood, because I can't recall.
00:43:33
Another certainly, could this arose from of?
00:43:36
This was an employee Uprising and I can't recall.
00:43:39
This one that's ever happened in the studio here before.
00:43:43
That was one thing but it but yeah I mean it's just there,
00:43:46
it's a bigger, it's a much less regimented worldview, that's
00:43:51
that's coming here. Yeah, I mean to some degree,
00:43:55
like the video game business is bigger and bigger than sort of
00:43:59
the movie business and is becoming culturally, sort of
00:44:04
more important, especially as we talked about like the metaverse
00:44:07
constantly and sort of web three and can fit into that.
00:44:10
I mean, and it feels like very much On your interests, but to
00:44:14
make this case. What do you think?
00:44:15
We cover Hollywood too much relative to the video game
00:44:19
business, right? I do wonder why, why is like, I
00:44:23
do think it's true. That like, Silicon Valley is
00:44:25
like a hub of business reporting.
00:44:27
Like Hollywood's a hub of business reporting like last,
00:44:30
like Finance anymore. I mean, there's like deals
00:44:33
stuff. But like, is it just that like,
00:44:35
Hollywood's like a better cultural Hub?
00:44:37
Or like, why do you think sort of the movie business has been
00:44:41
search such as, Like business community in a way that video
00:44:47
games have an or maybe you reject sort of the premise of
00:44:49
how I'm setting, all right? Yeah.
00:44:51
I mean, I kind of do I the people's people say this but I,
00:44:58
I think they're different businesses.
00:45:00
And I think they're doing different things and, and video
00:45:04
business, video games might be 100 times bigger than than
00:45:08
Hollywood, but it's but you know, so is so is Chopped liver.
00:45:14
But that's but it doesn't mean we should stop covering
00:45:17
Halloween because we put all our money and all our attention, the
00:45:21
liver industry. It's you know what Hollywood
00:45:24
does is it has the storytelling, basically, through movies and TV
00:45:32
show. Shows, still are enormous part
00:45:38
of people's lives around the world and Hollywood has out.
00:45:43
Sized influence in the world's in the world's stories and those
00:45:49
stories the world sees and what they get in Hollywood has as
00:45:53
still shown itself. Having assembled a community of
00:45:57
artists and crafts craftspeople and finance and everything to
00:46:02
produce produce this at a level that nobody else is able to
00:46:06
achieve, you know, Bollywood hongkong.
00:46:10
They have very vital to Great things.
00:46:13
But Hollywood production Remains the world's gold standard,
00:46:18
right? And it has a, it has an
00:46:23
importance in the envelope. So that's why it's interesting
00:46:26
to me this meeting of our kin Commerce and it has its
00:46:29
importance to the world, beyond the size of the industry that it
00:46:34
is, which, you know, compared to Tech its is pretty small.
00:46:39
I also think that You know, and I play video games at this is no
00:46:45
knock on the industry and and the quality of product that it
00:46:49
puts out, but I still think culturally video games are
00:46:52
Downstream of movies that a lot of the best games.
00:46:56
The biggest games are trying to evoke the experience of watching
00:47:00
a movie but you're interacting with it.
00:47:02
Now there are different kinds of games and ones that are less
00:47:04
like that but I still think if you look at your AAA titles, you
00:47:08
know, last of us or the Gears of War or Call of Duty, All of
00:47:12
these things, they're very deeply inspired by the movies
00:47:16
that came out currently or years ago.
00:47:18
And are trying to Riff on that in a way that's unique to the
00:47:21
medium. But so far, as I can tell, even
00:47:24
as video game companies, get bigger and bigger, they're still
00:47:29
producing a product that is derivative of the culture that
00:47:33
has been created by and large by Hollywood.
00:47:37
Now, I don't, I don't think Hollywood maintains and Monopoly
00:47:40
on culture and actually think. As time goes on and we sort of
00:47:43
see Tick-Tock and social media and ideas and memes that come
00:47:48
out of that affecting. What is in movies that you are
00:47:54
seeing a bit of a flipping of that?
00:47:55
Like I do really think the Creator economy and the
00:47:58
Independence that comes from that has had a huge impact on
00:48:02
big studios and movies and you're starting to see, you
00:48:05
know, the things that are the primordial soup, that's inside
00:48:08
the crater economy, start to be filter out and appear in movies
00:48:11
and TV shows on things. Like that.
00:48:12
But I think within video games and like the video games, a
00:48:18
Hollywood Dynamic remains to me, one of maybe a more profitable
00:48:23
and better business with video games.
00:48:25
But again, like culturally, which is how we use.
00:48:27
So much of the world these days, you know, like how it affects
00:48:30
like the culture and the things that we consume it just still
00:48:33
seems to me that that the big movies and TV shows are so much
00:48:36
more important and and creative. And and part of the kind of
00:48:40
hairr like they're higher up on the Dream.
00:48:43
Yeah, my, that's why I think that's my excuse.
00:48:45
I thought I needed to. I mean, obviously, you know,
00:48:47
business reporters don't cover anything relative to their
00:48:50
actual valuations or value. And like, even in Silicon
00:48:53
Valley, where the numbers are huge.
00:48:56
You know, it's about what companies are interesting that
00:48:59
sort of decides their coverage as much of the size.
00:49:00
So I agree with that and that Hollywood is more culturally
00:49:05
relevant. It's just fascinating to me that
00:49:07
the video video games are getting so big and that they
00:49:10
don't feel like they fit into that.
00:49:12
The same way even though they're a good view everybody.
00:49:15
Everybody loves to love to write about Apple but in here but I
00:49:18
was going to Apple and Amazon but how many how many how many
00:49:22
great articles about Oracle do you read the great example that
00:49:25
to me recently is you know the stories that have come out in
00:49:28
the journal about Activision and Bobby kotick and what he knew
00:49:31
about the sexual harassment assault that was taking place
00:49:35
inside his company were huge bombshell pieces that if they
00:49:38
were written about Disney or Warner media Or any other
00:49:43
Hollywood institution, I think would have gotten much much.
00:49:46
I mean, compare that to the story is about harming, the
00:49:48
first me to stories and yeah, your first response was, who the
00:49:52
hell is Bobby kotick? I'm like, isn't that Sheryl?
00:49:54
Sandberg's X or exactly is he? Yeah, yeah.
00:49:57
That was the thing. I've been the most highly
00:49:59
compensated. Co, I mean like he's, he's, you
00:50:01
know, an incredibly powerful person and their stories are
00:50:03
great. I mean, the Wall Street Journal
00:50:05
and Jason trailer Bloomer, there's great reporting on it.
00:50:08
But yeah, the cultural uptake of it.
00:50:10
I feel like hasn't been as big as those stories too.
00:50:12
They're terrible stuff but it's not it's not like a company that
00:50:15
I was invested in like like oh my God, Activision will have to
00:50:20
look to have to be a shake-up at Activision.
00:50:22
What will we do? You know every, every every
00:50:27
Activision Netflix, every Activision executive can fly
00:50:31
into the Sun for, for all I would know.
00:50:34
But My last question. Let me just going back to the
00:50:39
angler and sort of what you're doing here.
00:50:40
What is? I don't know how much you're
00:50:42
going to commit to what your future looks like, but what is
00:50:45
what's the scale of this? Is this a couple more people is
00:50:48
this Dozens, like, what size scale are you thinking here?
00:50:53
So to the, to the extent, we can fund it and, and, and build it.
00:50:58
It's we're not looking to fill slots.
00:51:01
We're looking to find interesting people that can that
00:51:04
can do interesting things and and then craft, and then and
00:51:09
then figure out how they, how they fit in, so we'd rather
00:51:12
have, we'd rather three or four, great people, then that I'm a
00:51:17
social team of Tea with the same email list or different
00:51:22
everybody with their own. Well, that's that that's the
00:51:25
question. It's, you know, I think our plan
00:51:27
is is now build up the the angular core product and look
00:51:33
for opportunities to do to do spin-off products.
00:51:37
And it's like there's there's there's niches in Hollywood
00:51:41
where the people who are involved in that Niche would be
00:51:43
really interested in hearing more and and there's a lot more
00:51:48
reporting to be And that's that, that's not being done and then
00:51:51
and an ankle or sort of take on that on that corner of the world
00:51:56
would be, would be fascinating to many, but maybe there's a
00:51:59
trusted to be to be a reporter. Again, it does that mean Puck is
00:52:04
in the back of your mind. In terms of close competitors
00:52:08
are you I never think about competitors a real.
00:52:11
Now you're you're an entrepreneur.
00:52:13
Yeah yeah I mean I think about we, you know and this is And
00:52:19
this, this is why it's so funny that that the great owner of
00:52:25
Penske media has apparently obsessed with us at hiring one
00:52:30
single reporter. It's, I think about we do the,
00:52:34
we do the most interesting thing in the best, the best thing we
00:52:37
can, and whenever you do that stuff tends to work out.
00:52:41
That's-that's-that's and focus on focus on telling great
00:52:46
stories and the world. The world will come to you.
00:52:52
This was the zelos feel about, you do such great coverage of
00:52:55
awards and the kind of awards, industrial complex and
00:52:58
Hollywood. And I, and I always, I always
00:53:00
get complaints people when I do like three issues of that in a
00:53:04
row. People, even in Hollywood people
00:53:06
say stuff, right? Who cares?
00:53:07
So much about the goddamn Oscars, but they suck.
00:53:10
So it's so funny because Gets to the core of what these people
00:53:13
love, you know, they can all claim that they're in it for the
00:53:15
art or they're in it for making money.
00:53:17
When it comes down to it, they just want to be told by their
00:53:19
friends that they're the best. And, you know, the whole
00:53:22
business behind a word marketing is its unique to living in Los
00:53:26
Angeles. So you don't really get it until
00:53:27
you live there. But anyway, I mean, you know,
00:53:31
last either this year, I don't even remember, you know, there
00:53:33
was a big investigation of the Golden Globes and the Hollywood
00:53:36
Foreign Press Association that found out.
00:53:37
That the thing was just a pure on grift racket of Of, you know,
00:53:42
wining and dining these people in order to get nominations and
00:53:46
you know, it's not going to be televised on NBC now because of
00:53:49
all of this yet, it just doesn't seem like, you know, it's really
00:53:52
Fallen that much at Hollywood's estimation.
00:53:54
I mean where do you see like both the Golden Globes and just
00:53:57
like more broadly, the whole business of, you know, whoring
00:54:02
yourself to the award shows to get little statues for your
00:54:06
actors and producer. I mean, it's it's in terms of
00:54:10
the Golden Globe. Did, you know, there was a real
00:54:13
concerns about the diversity in their organization.
00:54:16
Everything, and, you know, any, any major company in our
00:54:19
community, should should be held accountable to for that.
00:54:23
So there that's real thing, but the whole idea of like these
00:54:26
aren't real words. These are fake Awards and these
00:54:29
are like, like, what is they're all fake award is a real.
00:54:32
What is a real word? Like, I don't know when they
00:54:34
when they when they nominated Emily in Paris, that was a hard
00:54:39
line from it, as the Could some of the Emmy nominees over the
00:54:43
last video? I mean, it's yeah, they've Dave
00:54:49
given Dave given Awards to some crummy things in the past, but I
00:54:53
mean, you want to look at the Army when reading book Jesus
00:54:56
Christ, I view the Oscars is like a is just a fair assessment
00:55:01
of of horrible Choice out every year, every year, the ash, a
00:55:05
couple nominees. And you're just like what?
00:55:08
And you know, you've never heard.
00:55:11
Now, because so it's, I mean, these are people there there,
00:55:16
there people from abroad, and they devote themselves to this,
00:55:20
and they go to a lot of Buffets and and see movies and talk to
00:55:24
each other. Right?
00:55:24
So if they want to give out Awards, why should I?
00:55:27
It's not like there's not like the military appointed appointed
00:55:31
The Academy of Motion Pictures as the final Arbiter of what's a
00:55:35
good movie or or not. And so I just find the
00:55:40
discussion. Of a real Awards versus fake
00:55:44
Awards. Sure.
00:55:45
They have their influence silly, though.
00:55:47
The whole Hollywood Awards. Circuit is a promotional rack.
00:55:51
It's meant to. It's meant to promote the film
00:55:55
industry and promote and create a little contest that creates
00:55:59
excitement about films. And, you know, that's fine.
00:56:02
And that's the answer. That's if you care about film.
00:56:05
What's good thing to have shows promoting that are there
00:56:08
basically infomercial for films but it Time people start getting
00:56:12
all Pious and taking it seriously.
00:56:14
It's my, my eyes roll to the back of my head was diversity,
00:56:18
the only objection to the Golden Globes, or I thought there were
00:56:23
I, I don't think knows it. Where the article, that's the,
00:56:28
the takedown article about them was, was sort of a kitchen sink
00:56:32
as complaints. Their, their, their former
00:56:36
president, had some serious harassment charges against him.
00:56:41
And that's, that's pretty serious and he's gone.
00:56:44
There was there, I mean, one there were there were sort of
00:56:49
gas that how much money they were making which, you know,
00:56:53
they're 90 people and they get, they get, they get paid if they
00:56:56
serve on different Committees of the of the words there was like
00:57:01
some of them make as much as sixty thousand dollars a year I
00:57:04
was, which was kind of which I mean they put on was like the
00:57:10
number for TV show. The year.
00:57:12
So right assumed they were make, they're making a hell of a lot
00:57:14
more than that. But, you know, that was shocking
00:57:18
to the Los Angeles. Times columnist, who wrote it
00:57:21
that that they made? That there was what were the
00:57:26
other of that that they asked that they that that had junkets.
00:57:30
They that they asked these sort of lame and pertinent questions
00:57:37
which you know I am sure they do if you have ever been to A
00:57:41
Hollywood junket, a a interesting and insightful
00:57:46
question would would die of loneliness if it if it ever
00:57:51
showed its face at all, he would chunk of it.
00:57:53
So so if you say they're, if they're stupid questions or more
00:57:58
insane than the than the typical ridiculous questions that get
00:58:04
asked that those it's hey, it was a grab bag of sort of pearl
00:58:09
collection. And shout out to be That after
00:58:12
some real concerns about the diversity and is there anybody,
00:58:17
like, who could replace them? Or I mean, I guess, yeah.
00:58:21
If the argument is okay, it's good to have.
00:58:23
Obviously Hollywood likes to promote their films.
00:58:26
It's one way to do it. The, the next argument would
00:58:29
just be well, like, if there's an incrementally better set of
00:58:31
people who could pick movies, should they be doing it?
00:58:34
There's a contender for this, which is the, the Critics Choice
00:58:40
Awards, which happens to fall at about the same time in the
00:58:43
calendar and they have been pushing themselves, very hard as
00:58:48
a replacement for this and lo and behold all the critics that
00:58:53
right columns about it and are members of this also.
00:58:57
Think the Critics Choice Awards will be a good replacement for
00:59:00
this and, you know, sure. I mean do critics have a right
00:59:06
to a better opinion than the Golden Globes is Known to
00:59:12
anybody because they put on a fun show where movies and TV,
00:59:16
everybody gets drunk, right? I mean, that's the fun.
00:59:19
Yeah. They sit at tables and people
00:59:21
people get a little boozy and loose, and they, and, and they
00:59:24
don't take it too, seriously, and they made fun of the, they
00:59:28
make fun of the shows. And they get there that that is
00:59:31
why anybody watches, it's not because like they're the most
00:59:34
serious, all gust opinion on the quality of the Arts.
00:59:41
These days and the Critics Choice is a is a very humdrum
00:59:48
sort of weird little awkward show.
00:59:53
That is never going to take that plate.
00:59:54
And if the Golden Globes died, if not, like all this is a
00:59:58
legacy, the whole award sectors are there's there's like no one
01:00:01
under under 150 up. Watch was these things anymore
01:00:05
and to dying audience. And if the Golden Gloves went
01:00:08
away, it's not like, people would be sitting there saying,
01:00:10
oh, I've got space. Maya calendar for new award show
01:00:13
here. So what can they give them?
01:00:16
They'd say, okay, only will watch six Awards shows instead
01:00:20
of seven this year. That's that's, that's probably
01:00:23
more than I should be watching. What's what's on the Richard
01:00:26
Rushfield? What gets the Rushfield this
01:00:29
year, what's your, what's your top movie so far?
01:00:31
My family movie? We think about that.
01:00:35
The the enjoy a pair of the dog. I I'm not sure.
01:00:42
I love the. I don't know if I'd say if I
01:00:43
have a top movie this year. Yeah.
01:00:46
Still a couple weeks left. Yeah.
01:00:48
Do you do that kind of thing? I mean, you're you want to like
01:00:51
will the angler get more into? Yeah.
01:00:54
Here. Our favorite movies or anything
01:00:55
like that? I always find.
01:00:57
It's weird like that all the reporters have also become
01:01:01
critics and you're writing about your career, I mean, I won.
01:01:07
I'm trying to analyze the industry and the life of it as
01:01:10
best as I can. And Like to add this element of
01:01:13
like, you know, you're going to interview a producer but, you
01:01:17
know, you you thought his movie had a week.
01:01:20
Second act. So first question, so so you're
01:01:25
going to have an awkward conversation and because you
01:01:29
wish they had cast, someone younger in this park, like it's,
01:01:33
I mean, it just seems like it's a different job and, and, and,
01:01:39
and, and the flip side of it is. You know, if you're if you're
01:01:44
say a reporter who happens to love superhero movies, you just
01:01:48
sort of fall on the floor drooling at the mouth and when
01:01:53
say a Kevin feige walks into the room, had a Mark, that a Marvel
01:01:57
there. So yeah.
01:01:59
Well one of the reasons I had to leave the beat was I wasn't one
01:02:04
of those people and also I think I cared more about my opinions
01:02:07
of movies than I did about asking hard questions that
01:02:10
sounds. Yeah, it's much more fun.
01:02:13
Yeah. What can I say?
01:02:15
All right, Richard, thank you so much for joining best of luck
01:02:17
with the angler and everything done with the man.
01:02:19
Get you down. Thank you, go go higher.
01:02:21
You need a higher go, poach away.
01:02:23
Thank you very much, we're going to find good people, and we're
01:02:26
excited. So work on Sally, goodbye,
01:02:40
goodbye. Goodbye.
01:02:41
Bye good, bye good. Bye good.
01:02:43
Bye good. Bye.
01:02:41
Bye good, bye good. Bye good.
01:02:43
Bye good. Bye.