Former NBC Entertainment chairman Paul Telegdy once lorded over Hollywood as a titan of television as the industry around him was crumbling. The Netflix menace was on the rise and Hollywood media companies were struggling to respond. Telegdy was trying to hold it together while running an increasingly imperiled broadcast network.
Before he was pushed out of NBC in 2020 amidst a nation-wide fever of recriminations, exposés, and public firings, Telegdy oversaw some of the world’s most successful reality television programming, including The Voice, American Ninja Warrior, and while at BBC Worldwide Dancing with the Stars. He also had the pleasure of overseeing Donald Trump’s The Apprentice. Telegdy regularly fielded calls from the future president. Trump always wanted to brag to Telegdy about the show’s ratings success, Telegdy told us.
By the late 2010s, streaming had upended the television business, dislodging NBC from its prized perch and creating new media titans like Netflix, Hulu, Amazon, and Apple. Disney proved most successful at answering the streaming industry’s money-burning onslaught — only for investors to suddenly change their tune this year and insist on profits rather than growth.
We invited Telegdy — who Dead Cat co-host Tom Dotan got to know covering Hollywood — on the show to talk about the state of Hollywood today.
We start off the episode discussing Telegdy’s rise from his perch at the BBC and then his ascent to the top rungs of Hollywood at NBC. We talk about how the era of Hollywood “Jeffs” gave way to the reign of “Bobs.”
Telegdy dissects Bob Chapek’s short tenure as the chief executive officer of Disney before his old boss Bob Iger returned to the role.
Finally, we ask Telegdy about The Hollywood Reporter article that helped tank his job at NBC. The Hollywood Reporter accused Telegedy of “racist, sexist, and homophobic behavior.” The story’s headline read, “NBC Insiders Say Entertainment Boss Fostered Toxic Culture, Under Investigation.” He was ousted from NBC in a reorganization as the company investigated the allegations.
We wanted to know what was it like being on the other side of a media exposé.
We reached out to NBC and the reporters at the Hollywood Reporter for comment. NBC declined to comment and the reporters did not reply.
In 2021, eager to make a quick comeback, Telegdy co-founded the entertainment company The Whole Spiel with his cousin. Telegdy has prodigious knowledge about the entertainment business and a sharp British sensibility, just the kind that might get someone in trouble with American office politics under a microscope.
Give it a listen
Read the automated transcript
Get full access to Newcomer at www.newcomer.co/subscribe
00:00:05
Welcome to work on salad. Hey everybody, Welcome to Dead
00:00:14
cat Tom dote on here with Eric newcomer this week, we've got a
00:00:17
real treat for the audience because we're taking a break
00:00:20
we're taking a break from the scandals and the layoffs and the
00:00:24
onslaught of bad and just generally weird Vibes going on
00:00:27
in Silicon Valley. So I'm sure by the time this
00:00:30
episode, Uh so comes out Sam Venkman freed will have done a
00:00:33
half dozen more inculpatory interviews and Elon will have
00:00:37
started and resolved a fight with.
00:00:39
I don't even know who like Emmanuel macron or something.
00:00:45
But instead we are leaving that car.
00:00:46
Crash behind, we are going to keep driving on 101 past Silicon
00:00:50
Valley to the real Valley and to the land where the Vibes are
00:00:54
probably Chiller. But maybe even weirder at the
00:00:57
moment, we're talking Hollywood where Leaders are being
00:01:00
defenestrated. The costs are being slashed
00:01:02
chaos. Feels like it's raining and to
00:01:05
talk Hollywood. We've brought on one of my
00:01:07
favorite people that I used to talk to when I cover the
00:01:09
industry. We've got on here.
00:01:11
This episode Paul to leg D. First of all, welcome to the
00:01:14
show. Welcome to Dead cat.
00:01:15
I hear this is your first podcast in.
00:01:16
Yes, I'm check that on advisement, by the way, I love
00:01:19
the name of your podcast. Oh, thank you.
00:01:21
Yeah, yes, dead cat. It is a very Insider e.
00:01:24
We all know. We all that weren't dead.
00:01:26
Cat Bounce has we can talk about that as yeah?
00:01:28
But yeah, sure. Sure.
00:01:30
Yeah, you may be seeing some of those happening around.
00:01:32
You don't Hollywood? Yeah.
00:01:34
So part, why don't we just get the full resume for audience?
00:01:37
So we can know who we're dealing with here.
00:01:39
So like many people. I was sort of accidental entrant
00:01:42
into the television industry, through the funny enough, the
00:01:45
world of international television sales based in London
00:01:49
and that was a journey that started my relationship with
00:01:53
content and content distribution and that was you know selling
00:01:56
shows around the world on behalf of producers that had retained
00:01:59
the rights. And, you know, it was an
00:02:02
interesting business back. Let's just say in the middle
00:02:04
90s, we were still using a Telex machine, fax machines and, you
00:02:07
know, jumping on planes to go and see people and attending
00:02:10
markets in a very traditional way.
00:02:13
And on the day we're in here in a small company, the IT guy has
00:02:17
five jobs but the, IT guy came and installed this thing called
00:02:20
email its proper said, huh? And okay, that's a really well,
00:02:25
yeah, that's what we're dealing with.
00:02:27
And I remember the first email I sent and received a reply Fly to
00:02:30
and I say oh well this business is going to change my tea
00:02:32
quickly and I thought well the distribution businesses.
00:02:35
This place understands going to evolve.
00:02:37
I need to get close to content creation and be a part of the
00:02:40
process that gets sort of makes the treats that get sold around
00:02:44
the world. And so I joined the BBC, in
00:02:47
1998, in a job. I had no clue what the job was.
00:02:50
To be honest, I just took any job at the BBC, whereas, what
00:02:53
was called a commercial manager of several programming units,
00:02:57
which included the BBC's entertainment division that we
00:03:00
Lee was response for like comedy and then shows like, what you
00:03:05
would laughs Ali know, like Strictly Come Dancing which
00:03:07
became Dancing with the Stars. So at the time at the BBC, Mark
00:03:10
person's this chair. Alan yentob is so legendary BBC
00:03:14
Condors I would call him a created technocrat and he was
00:03:18
like, oh, there's a vacancy in l.a. you should put on your
00:03:21
Bombay bowler which Suresh words to like your East India, come
00:03:25
for me executive ironic yamming from Alan.
00:03:28
Yeah, element over there. Rocky Jew was like, we need the
00:03:33
British. Can't stop colonizing.
00:03:34
I get it okay, that, but he sent me off to LA to colonize.
00:03:39
And there are rival. A death, I mean, funny enough,
00:03:42
we're in the same building as TNT Turner, this building
00:03:46
called, which was known as the dogs building because there was
00:03:50
this sort of nice Family, Diner on the ground floor.
00:03:53
That was one of the few places you could eat.
00:03:55
So I was in the ground floor of the adults building and I
00:03:59
arrived and the Books still had the last occupant of the
00:04:03
offices. Last lunch lady in a sort of
00:04:06
unwrapped sandwich, and as a key card on the desk, had the words
00:04:10
written on one card. Good luck.
00:04:13
Yeah, exactly. I met my colleagues.
00:04:15
And then, you know what, I just sat down side, hitting the sides
00:04:18
and talking to people, and Bridging, the Gap between the UK
00:04:21
and the Los Angeles, part of the business.
00:04:23
In what turned out to be an extremely and deeply meaningful
00:04:27
way. But my boss at the time and
00:04:28
Lana's, like know we're coming. Um okay okay we'll try and sell
00:04:32
doesn't the stars and that happens when what was my
00:04:36
connection with that will? I set up the meeting went along
00:04:38
and was mightily surprised with ABC ordered six episodes.
00:04:41
I was even more surprised when they agreed that we could plead
00:04:46
the producing Studio. As I holy shit, were hiding in
00:04:50
the dolts building call. We got is an inbox with an old
00:04:53
sandwich in it. How are we going to become a
00:04:55
fully-fledged Production Studio overnight?
00:04:58
So I called friends in pity, UK and weekends foolish led a
00:05:02
Groove Production Studios for a reality show.
00:05:06
So ABC in 2005 at the time, would you have taken much more
00:05:11
credit for Dancing With the Stars?
00:05:13
Now you're being you're sort of saying I didn't necessarily
00:05:16
think it was a great idea. Listen, a cheer ever get to work
00:05:19
or be in the room at that level up.
00:05:21
There are lots of reasons, it became successful, that I will
00:05:23
take complete credit for, but not the sale, But executing
00:05:27
shows from a standing start with nobody to help again, all of
00:05:31
that team together and then maintaining a.
00:05:33
But also let's just say doing the right deal at ABC helped by
00:05:37
in the most profound way. But then I got a call to go and
00:05:39
do more reality programming NBC. And I wrote into what was I
00:05:44
could sort of, you know, an organization that was you got to
00:05:48
understand. I arrived, two weeks after
00:05:51
Lehman, Brothers know whether I think I write two weeks before
00:05:54
Layman Brothers collapse. And we Were owned by GE at the
00:05:57
time and I thought, oh my God, I'd landed this cushy job at
00:06:00
NBC, gonna get Starkville algae, a massive Global Industrial
00:06:05
company. This is a great place to be dot
00:06:08
dot. Dot cut.
00:06:10
Two people that will remain nameless but let's just say they
00:06:13
were all called Jeff but a certain point everyone in a
00:06:15
cabbie we have. Yeah, yeah yeah.
00:06:19
In a room with a load of Jeff's after a town hall at the Gibson
00:06:22
Amphitheatre where we're told the world's about to end this.
00:06:26
Lee from a financial point of view one, Jeff stood up and said
00:06:28
this ain't good and then in front of the entire Workforce
00:06:32
and then behind closed doors said something like I'm not even
00:06:34
sure we can make sucking payroll in two weeks.
00:06:36
Okay, I'm right. Oh okay.
00:06:39
And meanwhile morale was in a kind of like let's just say off
00:06:42
the back of just strike with you know I don't know the Olympics
00:06:46
in Beijing were kind of a highlight that that woman has a
00:06:49
she was on its knees. Yeah.
00:06:53
Tell anybody who watches 30 Rock, by the way.
00:06:55
You can very closely traced this period of GE owning NBC to, you
00:06:59
know, the Convoy from Philadelphia in the form of
00:07:02
Comcast coming out, it sounded chaotic and Bleak and hilarious.
00:07:06
I'll take the, it started for me.
00:07:09
What are described as a love-hate relationship with
00:07:12
people that emanates from America's Business Schools.
00:07:17
Because what I meant to say, Ash, That's a load.
00:07:22
I don't know what words to say because it feels like chills
00:07:26
like graft every credit. Yeah, well, there's plenty of
00:07:29
that around here, too. I feel a lot for the plight of
00:07:32
anyone that's listed on the stock exchange.
00:07:35
It just seems like it isn't really good.
00:07:37
So the decisions that need to be made at companies, I think
00:07:40
that's super exacerbated. A companies that are in sectors
00:07:43
that are going through Rapid change and that actually is a
00:07:47
very nice. I like that, listen my career.
00:07:49
After I did that, I then went on.
00:07:51
Actually, to slowly grapple my way to the top of the pile and
00:07:55
be a co-chairman first and then briefly chairman of NBC
00:07:58
entertainment. Now, when I started a career in
00:08:00
television in the UK, got to understand the year that I
00:08:03
started, there was no question. NBC was the number one Network
00:08:07
anywhere on the planet like him, 99.
00:08:09
Sure, friends Seinfeld all of her friends are everything
00:08:12
everything and so when you started ruin television, if you
00:08:15
do ask me going to be chairman of MVC.
00:08:16
What they were able? That would be a result.
00:08:18
Let's hope so. But as a Brit, sorry.
00:08:21
Any business Rising ascending to the chairmanship of NBC, would
00:08:24
have seen unimaginable and so lurching from quarter to quarter
00:08:27
is what AG's ownership of MVC felt like one of the common
00:08:31
house cat then came in cable town in your 30 Rock example.
00:08:36
And there was a strange sense of calm that descended on the place
00:08:40
and that's the general vibe. That tends to emanate from
00:08:42
Comcast right there. All, you know, brother Ali
00:08:45
Philadelphia types. That seem to be at least from
00:08:48
the outward facing side of a very well, you know, if I was a
00:08:50
CEO Not Baba. Yaga.
00:08:52
I would want to age 40 percent of the voting stock of Disney
00:08:55
aren't ya? Might be a big calm.
00:08:57
Yeah and I think that that's here.
00:08:58
Family companies were like that. That's the thing is that I would
00:09:01
imagine there are up again, I'd be careful what I say that.
00:09:04
I don't think I'm disparaging module more employees by saying,
00:09:07
there is a lot of head-scratching around corporate
00:09:10
governance, on Wall Street around the voting stock, Comcast
00:09:14
right, sets apart. If you'd only be cutting it for
00:09:16
it for a second here because they, I mean, I do think, you
00:09:19
know, you kind of mention you, you worker wait. to to the top
00:09:21
of NBC, you know, you do end up getting pushed out at, you know,
00:09:25
as part of a reorganization and some other things that maybe we
00:09:28
can touch on for a little show later, but I do think, you know,
00:09:30
in tracing the trajectory of your career, you kind of go from
00:09:34
someone who just got his first email in the mid-90s and to, you
00:09:37
know, working at the top of this industry that was completely
00:09:40
upended by technology and this direct to Consumer relationship
00:09:44
like a, you know, a full spectrum shifts in the way that
00:09:47
the business Works, which kind of brings us to today, where
00:09:51
Like I said at the outset, it seems like things are more
00:09:53
unhappy and more chaotic in my opinion than I've seen in
00:09:57
certainly the years that I covered the industry, so you
00:09:59
know, from someone who now, you know, you run a production
00:10:01
company. So you are you are, you know,
00:10:03
you're on the selling side of things rather than the flying
00:10:05
side. What is the general Ambiance
00:10:09
anxiety with in Hollywood these days like, how are people
00:10:12
feeling? Well, I think that if you talk
00:10:15
to a lot of people, like the people that are at these
00:10:18
companies where your boss has said, Oh gosh.
00:10:22
We're fencing. Strong head winds.
00:10:24
Well, we all know what that fucking means.
00:10:26
Look to your left, look to your right.
00:10:28
One of you three is out of here. Yep.
00:10:31
And if you think about on a system-wide basis and what kind
00:10:33
of look, let's just face, all of us have a kind of survival
00:10:37
animal. You see in the mirror sometimes
00:10:39
we wake up. I'm like, holy shit, pull
00:10:40
yourself together. But let's just say the survival
00:10:43
animal in most of Hollywood is engaged right down to when you
00:10:47
can see like Bob but use the word defenestration.
00:10:51
And I love that. Well yes, that's like it's
00:10:53
amazing. How many people fall out of
00:10:55
Windows around the world. Okay.
00:10:56
But yeah. So did you know?
00:10:58
D fenestrations. I can't imagine there aren't
00:11:01
going to be some a lot more. Why around the place?
00:11:05
It's not, you know, it's funny how bosses are always, but I
00:11:08
remember how many times I've been given in my career a Target
00:11:12
without any names on. It was basically means, hey,
00:11:16
should you go and ruin as many of these people's family lives
00:11:19
domestic? Ocean prospects of paying their
00:11:22
mortgage. We need you to go and take a
00:11:26
wrecking ball to this business or that business.
00:11:29
Why we're not making enough money?
00:11:31
Well, that's your fucking fault. Not the employees.
00:11:33
You hired is what waiata to drive again?
00:11:36
Probably probably one of the region slot.
00:11:38
I'm not adding space that it's like well it's funny.
00:11:42
Like look, if your rhetoric is, everything was going great,
00:11:44
should 10 years like bawling everywhere, sunny right people
00:11:47
that have run these businesses. Okay?
00:11:49
So let's I mean, we kind of danced around it.
00:11:51
Little bit. But let's talk about the Disney
00:11:53
situation because for our listeners are there few that
00:11:55
don't know a couple of weeks ago Disney's board in the middle of
00:11:59
the night basically just threw the body of their CEO about
00:12:02
shape back into the LA River and and and reinstated Bob Iger who
00:12:08
was the previous and Incredibly successful kind of legendary CEO
00:12:11
of Disney who had hand-picked Bob Shaye back to be a
00:12:14
successor. It was apparently some sort of a
00:12:17
disaster. I'd be interested in your
00:12:18
opinion on that but yes, and So now he has two years basically,
00:12:22
to write this company whose stock has fallen substantially
00:12:25
over the last couple of years and do the thing that he
00:12:27
apparently couldn't do which is find a successor.
00:12:30
Yeah. All my grad been the chairman of
00:12:32
dizzy, right? And then like relinquish that
00:12:36
seemingly to not have sort of his hands on the decision of the
00:12:40
board to pick the new CEO. As I was told he was completely
00:12:44
cut off from the board, he had moved on with his life.
00:12:46
He was on his yacht that you know going to French Polynesia,
00:12:49
are you know, they're just. Yeah.
00:12:51
Way he was a he was a vest or he was her whenever somebody it's
00:12:54
been presented like oh then they just called him up one day so I
00:12:56
gave Bob would you come back? You know.
00:12:59
I don't like they never talk I don't know.
00:13:01
It's hard to believe there's a lot of questions but if someone
00:13:04
who's been close to these decisions Paul what was your
00:13:06
sense of it? Well I again so the reason for
00:13:11
Jake's departure it seems mainly directly linked to the financial
00:13:16
performance of Disney over his tenure.
00:13:21
And you know what, it's funny because the word to CEOs that
00:13:25
retired, the Huddle and say, spookily close to the start of
00:13:29
the pandemic, v9 media. And you know what?
00:13:34
If I was going to take your two year break on my yacht and I
00:13:38
owned and operated businesses in countries, where, okay, I will
00:13:42
say the following Tom, if you'da spoken to me at the end of 2019,
00:13:47
Based on what we you based on let's say.
00:13:51
Construction projects around the world contacts in the Middle
00:13:55
Kingdom, we knew that it was a very serious pandemic coming in
00:13:59
2020. Why?
00:14:01
What parts of our business were already been shut down Blalock
00:14:04
towns in China and I remember the Playbook started to come out
00:14:10
and I'm just gonna cider I was cold in January 2020.
00:14:16
The this pandemic was going to last about two and a half years
00:14:19
based on Current scientific thinking and most of our core
00:14:25
operating businesses would be fundamentally Frozen for the
00:14:28
better part of two years. Did you put any like, put
00:14:31
options if you heard that news? I mean like you know, that's a
00:14:33
pretty strong until they're well.
00:14:36
No, because you're an employee and, you know, employees that
00:14:39
are reaching for their stock Brokers phone.
00:14:42
Phone number at times when they get inside, information is an
00:14:47
absolute prevalent disease across all of corporate America.
00:14:50
And the institutions that people here, hold their noses to say,
00:14:53
have any kind of broken T and the FCC does.
00:14:56
And that's okay. So aside from the fact that, you
00:14:58
know what I was thinking about was wholly beep.
00:15:02
What are the impacts going to be on the business and emotionally
00:15:08
the several thousand people are passed from careful.
00:15:12
Well, what are you gonna do? Well, we don't know what the
00:15:15
companies did and you can see what happened but if you if you
00:15:20
are either for by girl Steve Burke, he retired or took a
00:15:23
break in the business. You tonic Steve Burke was the
00:15:27
CEO of NBC. Yeah, he retired roughly the
00:15:29
same time as well, you know, and that's that's that I'm not
00:15:34
accusing honor, it's not a conspiracy to.
00:15:35
But what if you saw that the weather was set the way that it
00:15:38
was set the people that knew Ooh, that were bluntly the CEOs
00:15:43
businesses operating in China, okay.
00:15:46
And you can see what that you the minute.
00:15:49
It started to get ramped it by about the second week of January
00:15:53
in 20-20-20, wasn't it? I get my years messed up.
00:15:56
Yeah, January 2020. You could reasonably have gotten
00:15:59
sort of assessment. Yes.
00:16:00
Well, we were already starting to pick you up.
00:16:03
People caught going public spaces, which businesses are
00:16:06
clearly going to affect box office, but the same time we
00:16:08
would say thinking to us, that's why it's not going to.
00:16:10
If people are stuck at home, To watch a lot of TV but oh we
00:16:13
can't make any TB or we can't make any movies or we can't have
00:16:16
your theme parks opened. These were absolutely
00:16:18
extraordinary things for these companies to weather but look
00:16:23
with with Bob back ish. I had never heard that guy's
00:16:27
name just about, you know, that it's always interesting when
00:16:30
you're in a business meant to be as Inspire in Celsius is the
00:16:34
wrong guy which I hadn't. He said my back.
00:16:41
Okay. Bye back is just a CEO of is 0.
00:16:44
So we moved from an era of Jeff's to an air of bulbs.
00:16:48
You know what? By the way Jess becoming bulbs
00:16:51
is actually hilarious, right buddy?
00:16:52
It's Tommy dumb. But let's say I had not heard
00:16:56
Jake tanks made in the business that we call show.
00:17:00
Ever, ever, ever ever. He was the parks, kind of?
00:17:03
Yeah, I heard his name for the first time when he very public
00:17:08
to be fired. A very, very popular employee of
00:17:11
the Walt Disney Company and this is what this goes to the heart
00:17:14
of, let's say a thesis about what it is to be the CEO, Disney
00:17:18
versus the CEO of almost any other company, which is, I would
00:17:24
say this when I meet a Disney adult, like I'm like, holy what
00:17:30
is wrong with you? Well, no, no, I yeah, I'm sorry.
00:17:33
Many ways. I wish I could be a part of
00:17:35
something. It gave me such silliness and
00:17:36
pleasant for parking. No, no problem.
00:17:39
Thanks a lot. We saw it.
00:17:41
We get pleasure out of watching some of that stuff but I'm and
00:17:44
I'm sure I could get pleasure from going to the theme park but
00:17:48
I get it. But why we say that the best way
00:17:51
it was described to me once which I loved is that being the
00:17:53
CEO of Disney is like being the mayor of Disney like you've got
00:17:56
to walk around at the big smile on your face and you literally
00:17:58
this is true. Eric, you have to go once a year
00:18:00
to the theme park and wear the costume and walk around the
00:18:03
costume in like the goofier or Mickey Mouse get up.
00:18:08
It's really You Gotta Buy into the wrong thing.
00:18:10
You can't just be an m. So I hate would cult because
00:18:13
there's such a negative things. When you really think about the,
00:18:16
when you say, oh, it's a bit cold tea, be careful the words
00:18:18
you use, but so are, you know, to kind of put the cult into pop
00:18:21
culture, different, okay? So, and then you're right that
00:18:25
leadership position is of something when they're very
00:18:29
cheap. People, very few companies and
00:18:31
brands that have kind of emotional and storytelling
00:18:34
adherence to so many members of the public, never mind
00:18:37
shareholders. This child is See, look at the
00:18:40
rod, you know, the things that everyone looks at when they look
00:18:43
at company but then you've got to look at your fat and also
00:18:47
Disney has very large Workforce, which is different to some of
00:18:51
these businesses, and that's because of the parks but also,
00:18:54
because they're big Legacy business.
00:18:56
So, though it's not a democratic process, though, it's not a
00:19:00
popularity contest, though. Your main focus should be making
00:19:05
money, cutting class, whatever your job as a CEO is
00:19:07
unfortunate. It Disney.
00:19:09
You've Got to be Mark, realized you need Bob Iger, which is if
00:19:13
you don't know, Bob, I just should have seen him in public
00:19:16
and it's a bit like seeing big game in the wild, you know, it's
00:19:19
like seeing a another genuinely and he moves, he moves through
00:19:22
the world in a way. Where is the most like Suave
00:19:26
resumed his age. But he's literally looks like a
00:19:31
young shift your old. Okay.
00:19:33
And I'm sure what sure what happened is that we'd all been
00:19:36
hearing are stags out. All the can't find a success of.
00:19:39
Oh my God, they're going. Steve Burke.
00:19:41
We all thought we were gonna lose our boss.
00:19:42
Is who's gonna replace Bob? He's going to replace Bob.
00:19:45
Everyone obsesses about is going to be the next CEO of Disney and
00:19:48
meanwhile biting, I'm the CEO of Disney and know.
00:19:51
Why would I want to run for president?
00:19:52
But what happens if you're wrong?
00:19:53
She president know. I'm a really can see, oh, this
00:19:56
knee and guess what everybody hates you.
00:19:58
If you're the president, if you're going to be the head of
00:19:59
Disney, you're the head of the Magic Kingdom.
00:20:01
What's better than that? You're ahead of the Magic
00:20:03
Kingdom, and you really good in it.
00:20:05
And what's more, you know, I only won the Democratic, the
00:20:08
popular vote. You one.
00:20:10
The Electoral College and you're popular your approval rating
00:20:14
site. Suddenly people are saying well
00:20:16
we don't want you in this job anymore and like, I don't know
00:20:18
how I would react, but no Bob Iger, but I think that he
00:20:23
doesn't to those accessibility, it doesn't look like he had a
00:20:26
succession plan. One of the things that some
00:20:29
merge sort of in the reporting is just been, you know, that Che
00:20:32
pack took away the creatives budgets and sort of centralized
00:20:36
them. Right.
00:20:37
I'm probably butchering this. And now I decided Or the other
00:20:40
day there was saying that Mackenzie had given the
00:20:43
recommended, you know, the classic like, oh, clearly
00:20:46
someone's trying to blame MacKenzie for this but I'm
00:20:48
curious. Like, do ya do you think the
00:20:50
whole sort of creatives losing control?
00:20:52
The budgeting issue was really nice, kind of important here or
00:20:56
it is sort of all just like things people make up after the
00:20:59
fact to try and have reasons for lunch holding budgies and
00:21:02
ability to say yes to green-light of any project.
00:21:06
IE put money in other people's pockets to go make stuff.
00:21:10
Is the colander shhhh koror's so-called power in Hollywood and
00:21:16
any changes to the dynamic of how that money spent cause
00:21:20
Ripples. And, you know what, it's funny
00:21:23
because again, when you've worked in the business, a long
00:21:26
time in how, that decision making process has, approached
00:21:30
is literally the subject of McKinsey level navel-gazing
00:21:34
every organization on a kind of secular basis is, how can we
00:21:37
make less risky decisions, you know?
00:21:40
How do we turn this into a process?
00:21:43
Or, you know, and and then you decide only so many ways you
00:21:46
can. Look at the structure that says
00:21:49
we're being pitched. Something should we buy it or
00:21:51
net? And the way you can you can
00:21:53
muddle your way that a thousand ways.
00:21:55
But yeah, no one likes, having power taken away from them, but
00:21:59
I don't think that, I don't think that's the underlying
00:22:03
reason, you know, that's, that's part of popularity contest
00:22:06
thing. Once you start to hear, this is
00:22:08
how it typically goes. The first bad news you hear
00:22:11
about executive never ever comes internally it comes from one of
00:22:15
a handful of senior agents or agencies where you start to hear
00:22:20
the wobble around Scarlett Johansson and then it becomes a
00:22:24
kind of feeding frenzy around describing.
00:22:27
I was just not a creative person or object back is no more or
00:22:30
less creative than the next CEO. If I realized that CEO, one of
00:22:34
these companies was meant to be a particularly creative job, but
00:22:37
that is right, that is What the kind of industry holds onto as
00:22:43
the reason why we are different and special and need to be
00:22:47
treated. So differently here in Hollywood
00:22:50
is because we are creative and that's just a fucking nonsense
00:22:56
keys were French it really? It really, you know, we were, I
00:22:59
want to push back it. I mean, the actual IP of like
00:23:03
Star Wars Marvel like Pixar like those stories are what, you
00:23:08
know, the cult. Exactly what you said earlier.
00:23:11
The cold of Disney that fans, love it so much.
00:23:14
That's where they make all the money and at the end of the day,
00:23:16
having this great stories is what what your monetizing?
00:23:19
Well, I think there's a version of yes, but I would take out at
00:23:24
any cost as being one of the major problems and major major
00:23:28
problems facing business and that's one of the major problems
00:23:31
right now and as you CEO, probably more encouraging urged.
00:23:36
The workers others who are, let's just say the Really
00:23:40
creative people that make a difference in the quality of
00:23:42
outcomes of franchises like that or original pieces, or deaf
00:23:47
Disney staring at him, a decent job absent, Bob token, if I look
00:23:52
at, for instance, the output of Disney classed as a consumer and
00:23:55
the output of Hulu and its Associated networks.
00:23:59
That is a company in retail, from a Content point of view.
00:24:02
Oh, everyone or like, say oh this movie, bombed.
00:24:04
All that. Go get bumble around the
00:24:05
business, that's just how it is. But in the main there Capri Our
00:24:10
damn hunting strategy is beyond working with audiences and
00:24:14
you'll get a few people who are in the like real hardcore Disney
00:24:18
fans that will moan about, oh, well, that's not very Disney or
00:24:21
that was like, no in the main, their trajectory from a Content
00:24:25
point of view of successful, they've got great leaders
00:24:27
granular, level of the content businesses, this is something
00:24:30
different and you don't. Again, if you're a created in
00:24:33
one of these organizations and you've got an uncreated or a
00:24:37
non, someone who's proudly non-creative CEO, and there are,
00:24:41
those are like raging creative. Judge, do this.
00:24:43
Do that, you know? Yeah, there's lots of that, but
00:24:47
the ones you actually listen and then Empower you or listen to
00:24:51
track record that I don't know what he didn't green light or, I
00:24:55
don't know what decisions he made that.
00:24:56
Is there anyone off, but that doesn't seem to be a part of the
00:24:59
problem at all in this. Yeah, well, it does seem, I'm
00:25:02
one of the things I've always been really impressed with with
00:25:04
Eiger. As you know, they always say
00:25:05
he's a creative CEO, he doesn't write a script, you know, what
00:25:09
he does though, is. Make creatives feel that they
00:25:11
are being listened to when they're talking to someone who
00:25:13
understands the art behind what they do.
00:25:16
And that seems very different than someone who is just so
00:25:18
plainly not to criticize Che pecked specifically, because I
00:25:21
don't know him and I don't exactly know to him, but a suit
00:25:23
a suit, right? And that's that's what they
00:25:25
that's the nightmare, right? That is that I'm this creative,
00:25:28
you know, special bird and I don't want to be seen talking to
00:25:31
kind of a vulgar you know, profit and loss guy.
00:25:34
Well you see if you're in the consumer project the consumer
00:25:37
products and the theme park is This, even though the Magic
00:25:41
Kingdom Notes has a very specific, you know, the theme
00:25:44
parks at Disney, have a very specific kind of internal
00:25:46
residents. You are ultimately the guy
00:25:48
responsible for the widgets of the company.
00:25:50
It's like the language of unit, you know, gate cabinet.
00:25:55
The way that the theme parks behaved very different to and
00:25:58
all the other bits of the businesses in a company like
00:26:01
that. And the consumer products
00:26:02
division, relies entirely on scraps from the table of the
00:26:06
Court, created businesses to be successful.
00:26:08
When matter what your merchandising know, Here, no
00:26:10
T-shirt, right? So to come from that into that,
00:26:15
I think that has its challenges optically.
00:26:17
And in terms of pure capability, because yes, you'd be absent,
00:26:22
some earlier, bedside manner. That someone like Bob is honed
00:26:25
over many decades. I'm sure he wasn't always
00:26:26
perfect at it, you know, like meet young, but whatever.
00:26:29
But I think he understood that being Jude as someone with taste
00:26:35
and an artist friendly person is an important part of the
00:26:39
leadership role. Disney and it might not be so
00:26:41
others but it definitely is his right.
00:26:44
And this is the thing that that kind of, you know, I feel for
00:26:47
chair back almost because you know he goes out there and says
00:26:49
oh by the way, Disney plus is going to lose one and a half
00:26:51
billion dollars and every analyst comes back and says like
00:26:54
we are ending your career and meanwhile Reed Hastings.
00:26:58
And Netflix have been like losing three billion dollars a
00:27:01
year and they've been celebrated for it.
00:27:02
There were parades in the streets of New York, and Silicon
00:27:05
Valley for how much money, they will lose their regular
00:27:07
Martinez. CEOs are go ahead You have to
00:27:10
read the, you have to read the moment.
00:27:12
You know, it was grow grow grow, and now it's profitability and
00:27:15
that's just sort of how things are, you know, you're supposed
00:27:18
to execute towards the strategy, the market wants at the moment
00:27:21
and you know, the market wants it for for reasonable reasons.
00:27:25
You know about, I don't know. Is that that crazy?
00:27:27
Well what I'm saying is when there are people who are in
00:27:31
businesses that make kind of pronouncements, like I remember
00:27:35
my aunt and uncle who just was a very successful investor.
00:27:39
The guy for people, you never seem to end up with any money
00:27:42
himself. But he told me about, that's a
00:27:44
little boy caddying for him. He said one word asbestos, my
00:27:50
fuck Justin goes asbestosis going to change The Wealth of
00:27:53
Nations and I'm like, whoa. And then all you read about
00:27:57
growing upwards. Like this stuff is best bosses.
00:27:59
Killing loads of people, and cancer, and millions, billions,
00:28:02
and billions of millions of settlements, and all of this
00:28:04
stuff was like, oh well, I'm going to when someone makes you
00:28:08
kind of definitive. Armageddon stayed in about
00:28:11
something. I know, pay attention every time
00:28:13
even if I do my own research and dismiss it, but if someone I
00:28:16
know and trust says something that sounds off, I should pay
00:28:21
attention, I'm going to be in the business of ever been more
00:28:24
curious about finding out what's going on and someone very well
00:28:28
regarded. In our business has made a lot
00:28:30
of money and be very successful in.
00:28:31
It said what is happening right now?
00:28:33
And I think he said it in the middle of 2019, we'll be looking
00:28:39
looked at retrospectively as the greatest destruction of value
00:28:43
ever experienced by our business sector.
00:28:47
And the will retain the cost of it for a decade that it is going
00:28:53
to be very, very hard on the ranking file these companies.
00:28:59
And when I said value destruction, what do you mean?
00:29:02
It was like that. Everyone is chasing Netflix and
00:29:04
in doing so all that they are doing.
00:29:06
He's massively ramping up the cost of content.
00:29:09
And I mean by hundreds of percent in many cases, what a
00:29:14
show should could an actual Lee cost.
00:29:16
And you can see this by looking at International Arbitrage and
00:29:20
say, well, how much does an hour of drama cast fully-fledged
00:29:25
drama cost in? I don't know making it up
00:29:27
Copenhagen Denmark. Why is it Copenhagen like 10
00:29:30
most expensive places on a planet?
00:29:32
Like, isn't it? Positive living incredibly High
00:29:34
always hearing copenhagen's expensive?
00:29:36
Well, how the F can they make a drama for 700 Danish crowns
00:29:41
or euros and the same production values, Optical production
00:29:45
values, To some obviously identifiable above the log base
00:29:49
is 7 million now and Holly well yeah someone's being taken for a
00:29:55
ride, not quite shook Laureate, who it is yet.
00:29:59
But in that lies the truth of what's happening now.
00:30:01
Which is yeah you know what there's F comes in amazing.
00:30:05
Absolutely, no one expecting worn.
00:30:09
This is David's as either CEO of Warner Brothers.
00:30:11
One greatest discovery for everyone napping with whatever
00:30:14
that transaction was. I can't Tell you, there were
00:30:16
people that were just like holy moly and then you look at the
00:30:20
methodology which is how have they done this huge contract and
00:30:27
I when I look at the stock price, I'm just picking up my
00:30:29
phone cause I'm not like I'm not going to pretend.
00:30:31
I know the stock price off the top of my head by secretly
00:30:34
Googling it, but here is, you could always keep these media
00:30:38
stocks quite close to hand. Okay, so here's the Warner
00:30:42
Brothers Discovery, share prices at 11.
00:30:46
Dollars 40. And there is a Time six months
00:30:51
ago when it was $79 this year. I got ya the absolute largest
00:31:00
catalogue or schmoozing pictures on the planet is twenty seven
00:31:05
point six, nine billion dollars which if you add that enormous
00:31:09
pile of debt, probably puts the cost of the whole shebang, still
00:31:13
less than the purchase price of sky or the purchase pricing 20th
00:31:19
going back in time. Okay, so what's happened Just
00:31:24
what the hell has happened to all of that value.
00:31:27
That was in a company that someone thought was 79 bucks.
00:31:30
Less than six months ago. People were talking about FTX of
00:31:35
the hook, your own graph. Sunshine, what's going on there
00:31:39
and why are more difficult is you're doing about time or ya
00:31:43
talkin about? So Tom what?
00:31:45
Touch her so Time Warner? Yeah, I can do a quick one here.
00:31:47
So Time Warner, you know, was told to AT&T, all right.
00:31:52
So basically a couple of years ago, Warner was like in this
00:31:55
auction sale. They just wanted to process.
00:31:57
They just wanted to sell themselves.
00:31:58
Not Time. Warner is called Warner
00:31:59
Brothers, because time have been spun off anyway.
00:32:01
No. No was called Time Warner.
00:32:03
Anyway, they were sold to AT&T. And one of the most disastrous
00:32:07
deals that has ever happened in the media industry, where AT&T
00:32:10
had no idea what to do with this asset, they brought it was last
00:32:13
cycle, right? I mean, that was the last cycle,
00:32:15
so AT&T off, loads this asset, in the middle of 2021.
00:32:19
To this merger. That happened with discovery
00:32:23
which was overseeing And it was the CEO of that is David's a
00:32:25
slob. Who is kind of the king of
00:32:27
reality television. That was being position is like
00:32:29
a genius when this happened, right?
00:32:32
What he was on top. I mean, you know, he was able to
00:32:35
figure out a way in which he was the last media.
00:32:37
Mogul out there then. It turns out that he gets this
00:32:39
job and he has to deal and Paul you can talk about this.
00:32:42
I'm sure with a lot of knowledge, like a new entity
00:32:45
that had a huge amount of debt that had a very unclear
00:32:48
streaming strategy at this point and was coming up against us as
00:32:52
HBO. Yeah.
00:32:53
And like, Saying it's the largest catalogue of movies in
00:32:57
the world. It's an incredibly interesting
00:32:59
property, but it's also coming against this time.
00:33:01
Not just maybe the value of amazing catalog and huge
00:33:03
television production capacity and I'm not in any given year.
00:33:06
Several of your favorite shows are made by WB but Warner
00:33:10
Brothers, whether it's their own services or officers there, a
00:33:13
Powerhouse, absolute Powerhouse of physical production.
00:33:17
Yeah. Yeah.
00:33:17
So when it comes to catalog and ability to produce content on
00:33:21
Match and yet now there are saddled with this huge amount of
00:33:24
debt and a stock market that just doesn't seem to know what
00:33:27
to do with media. You think the stock market is
00:33:29
just wrong, or what? I know you were sort of saying,
00:33:32
you don't totally know the answer to what's going on here.
00:33:34
But what do you make of how low the value is for Warner
00:33:38
Brothers? Well, or time learn, I think
00:33:41
this. And Warner Brothers discovery of
00:33:43
Discovery. I mean, no need to know.
00:33:46
I know you're right. It sounds like fun.
00:33:48
Slightly dizzying to keep up with who owns?
00:33:50
What, where Ryan here and also, like your apps?
00:33:54
Aleut transparent understanding of which businesses any one of
00:33:58
these constructs actually owns and operates like already talked
00:34:01
about, the other even Hulu is anomaly or what's Discovery
00:34:04
coming together with HBO Max. You look like he's doing what,
00:34:07
what is there anything they can digest so that they can
00:34:10
streamline. What are they looking at?
00:34:12
And time and time again, you see that the kind of recourse in
00:34:16
when you've got yourself into a spot Financial Potter, which I
00:34:19
think that graphs represents in, by the way.
00:34:21
They're not alone with a grass like that.
00:34:22
Although I think it's interesting when You look at
00:34:24
Netflix over the last six months ago in the exact opposite
00:34:26
direction. You know, the cut programming or
00:34:30
cut creativity, cut the product, the R&D and cut the workforce
00:34:35
rather than take a really hot so cute.
00:34:37
The businesses and or I will Top all for the sake of Optics, will
00:34:42
topple a few tall, Business Leaders with big reputations.
00:34:46
You know like you saw that when at Warner's in preparation they
00:34:50
got rid of people that dozens of people have been working there
00:34:52
for like 20 25. A deists.
00:34:55
And by the way, you can see if you're not on LinkedIn on the
00:34:58
that we shouldn't really be on Jamal, my second day, but that
00:35:03
you can see after 25 years at the same company, it's off to
00:35:07
pass. Just knew like frightfully
00:35:09
chipper, heartbroken, statements by people that just been tossed
00:35:12
out in the street, as a result of things.
00:35:14
They don't understand. Like why did someone borrow
00:35:17
fifty billion dollars to buys? Oh, we the best thing on the
00:35:21
planet. Like we've all been working
00:35:23
here. I'm massive heads for years and
00:35:25
now this is falling down around our ears and I think there's a
00:35:28
lot of people that feel that way when you talked about morale and
00:35:31
what's it feel like in the industry there's kind of like on
00:35:33
our boss is kind of letting us down a bit here.
00:35:36
Yeah. One of the things that I found
00:35:37
fascinating from when I cover the industry was that there is a
00:35:40
certain type of job that used to be extremely prestigious in the
00:35:43
industry that is basically disappearing.
00:35:46
And I think of like programmers as one of them.
00:35:48
I mean that used to be almost the top of the Heap, right?
00:35:50
If you were the guy who was sitting there in front of the
00:35:52
big cork board and Figure out, you know, which TV show is going
00:35:55
on which night, that was a really fucking important job.
00:35:58
And people would strive in their careers to get to that level and
00:36:01
now it's basically like a dodo bird.
00:36:03
I mean, people just don't well that babe, you know, I change is
00:36:07
happening in the business the whole time.
00:36:09
I mean again I'm around telling a story about starting to be
00:36:12
distribution in the pre Broadband era is the first time
00:36:16
saw MP3, you could have drawn the conclusion that traditional
00:36:20
television was dead, Okay? Ramon like the first time.
00:36:24
Oh my gosh, you can get video, you can same thing, I just got
00:36:26
an email, okay? But content storytelling
00:36:31
publishing, those businesses are constants.
00:36:35
The way that it happens in the way that businesses make money,
00:36:39
that's been subject to ever, you know, enormous amounts of
00:36:42
change. So, I'm philosophical.
00:36:45
I'm, and it lose too much sleep about structural change in the
00:36:48
business, but the undeniable Kaos agent was, you know, when
00:36:53
you talk about Not a Hollywood Story, I don't know much, but I
00:36:55
kind of love the stories of like how Century City happened oh the
00:36:59
Japanese arrived in the 80s right before the Kobe
00:37:02
earthquake, right? And had a load of money and hit
00:37:06
Hollywood and everyone was like, party party.
00:37:10
New office is amazing, boot movies that were greenlit that
00:37:14
would never get made now and it kind of, you know, a bonanza of
00:37:19
new fresh cash into certain parts of the business, right?
00:37:22
I wasn't around. Then I work 10.
00:37:24
I was working with business but the arrival of tech, whatever
00:37:28
Netflix and Amazon, and just an and apple to an extent, whatever
00:37:33
the the sort of a rival as major new.
00:37:36
Highly resource eminences in Hollywood is that triggers a
00:37:41
number of responses, one of which is, and they make night,
00:37:46
but a whole lot of people go, yummy, yummy, fresh blood, some
00:37:50
you suckers have arrived in town, let milk it for all.
00:37:54
All it's worth and they'll be a gold rush of salt.
00:37:58
And at the end of the day, it's all right.
00:37:59
We enter picks and shovels, anyway.
00:38:01
So it's the people that make some chance.
00:38:03
You've heard all of this before, but that it genuinely feels like
00:38:07
we are heading for some sort of course, correction around the
00:38:10
cost of everything. How many employees?
00:38:13
Probably one more. Major merger.
00:38:15
Awaiting the landscape making sense in people talk about
00:38:18
Apple, buying Disney and everyone always says about
00:38:20
Apple. What I could buy absolutely
00:38:21
anything they wanted on any day or Right.
00:38:24
But are you betting on that or I'm not sure I would bet on it
00:38:29
not in the immediate short term because I think that that really
00:38:33
well, start head-spinning about what really is going on behind
00:38:36
closed doors and I think that even though neither of those
00:38:40
companies really owns any competing assets, I think, which
00:38:44
a Department of Justice only say this by having had a side row
00:38:49
seat to seeing what game consent decree, looks like or what a big
00:38:53
mouth. Sure what it shows up at the
00:38:56
moment. Well, let's just say no
00:38:58
Democratic Department of Justice are no friends at companies,
00:39:02
getting bigger red. So I don't and not necessarily
00:39:06
certain the apple plus Disney passes.
00:39:09
The isn't that just a monstrous thing?
00:39:12
Yeah, test right here in America.
00:39:15
And now everybody's mad at, you know, Apple was fighting with
00:39:17
Ilan for a second. There was a flash of Apple is,
00:39:21
you know, the biggest company in the world.
00:39:24
Maybe we should worry about it more for antitrust and not just
00:39:27
pick on Facebook all the time. Well, I think.
00:39:29
Yeah. And that's really going on in
00:39:31
Europe already, you know, and Europe tends to be Upstream of
00:39:34
the u.s. when it comes to regulation High Street Banks
00:39:37
extreme to an extent. But in terms of its history with
00:39:40
corporations, America has an amazing amazing history of
00:39:43
breaking up, large companies over and over again.
00:39:46
We've seen it happen. And then and historically, I'm
00:39:49
not certain with their but I would think that there would for
00:39:52
she some of these Companies not too big to fail.
00:39:57
Big enough to sail is really what it looks like.
00:39:59
Yeah, before we turn the conversation, what streamer
00:40:03
relative to its position our you most optimistic about sod
00:40:08
obviously don't count Disney out on.
00:40:10
Shit is subscribing, are missing brand value and I think they'll
00:40:12
figure out how to make money and do that, right?
00:40:16
Okay. I've been incredibly impressed
00:40:19
and encouraged with the progress to Amazon's made.
00:40:23
And I say that mainly in terms of just you guys unitech
00:40:26
business, when Prime first started it right?
00:40:29
It really felt like a service that wasn't run by people in the
00:40:33
entertainment industry. And I mean that from the time of
00:40:36
interface point of view, even like finding shows or everything
00:40:40
felt like a little bit thrown together Amazon, which was
00:40:43
strange because it's such a massively well, Resource
00:40:45
company. But I'll give huge credit to how
00:40:48
the business has evolved and also what contents emanating
00:40:52
from they're so a is going to be there or thereabouts in this
00:40:57
game. Got great Executives and people
00:40:59
that know what they're doing over there.
00:41:01
Likewise I want you to go up on my own habits.
00:41:03
I just found myself watching as you more and more, I was
00:41:06
surprised then long. Take the said that to me
00:41:08
likewise who know. So when people say, would you
00:41:11
cancel any of them? I'm like, well, note business
00:41:13
reason, I'm going to keep him or going, but where am I going
00:41:16
every day? Every day.
00:41:17
I, we're on Hulu, every day were on Disney trust because you the
00:41:20
kids and every day would probably, You're on a and
00:41:23
because the buying stuff but at the same time as like finding
00:41:26
stuff peacock is certainly not on this list.
00:41:28
I'm so amazed people always a way who are you who are you
00:41:31
Morris peacocks? An incredible Vision money play
00:41:34
and I actually see areas of usage where they really growing
00:41:37
like trust. They have got like quite a few
00:41:39
successful reality shows on surely getting regular ship for
00:41:42
like those Housewives and things like that and then there's
00:41:45
something undeniable. So there was a movie that I
00:41:48
would never go to see in a movie theater and I'm like I'm a
00:41:51
Vikings fan. Man.
00:41:52
Okay, so they done a movie called Norsemen at Focus
00:41:55
Features and to get me to go to the movie theater to see.
00:41:58
Norsemen will be absolutely impossible, but all those day in
00:42:02
day it was on peacock and I pay 99 cents a month for peacock.
00:42:08
I'm on a discounted deal. Okay.
00:42:10
So I'm like 99 cents on the got Northman.
00:42:13
Fucking hell God. Okay.
00:42:14
Into Northman and it says, I'm gonna have to watch the match
00:42:18
and I'm thinking well in the movie theater on July willingly,
00:42:20
watch like, 15. All's right, you'd be watching
00:42:24
the trailers, plus some weird local ads for the food court or
00:42:27
whatever. And they roll in sense to ads
00:42:31
are going to roll. One of which is the prime actual
00:42:34
inversion of about the watch and the other, we are not a greater.
00:42:38
The other words actually, a remarkably cognitive piece of
00:42:42
locally, served, advertising and thought.
00:42:44
Well, that's great. I've had to watch two pieces of
00:42:46
content and then about absolutely free runner, a
00:42:49
brand-new mooji. So what effectively is less than
00:42:52
no money. Money and so like, I don't know
00:42:55
where that fits into their desire to make money, but for
00:42:57
the consumer I'm literally sure it's a me good deal for me.
00:43:02
Good deal. I did want to ask and we talked
00:43:04
about this all done beforehand, but you know, we did talk about,
00:43:07
you know, you did kind of in your trajectory for career rise
00:43:09
to the top of NBC. And then, you know, rather
00:43:12
publicly and up through either a reorg or a pretty scathing
00:43:17
article written about your leadership and up getting an up,
00:43:20
getting pushed out. And, you know, it It's a very
00:43:24
quickly kind of explain the article, you know, the
00:43:25
allegations in it was that as the leader of this company, you
00:43:29
know, of NBC, you know, you and created a work environment that
00:43:33
many Anonymous sources describe as toxic.
00:43:36
I think some people spoke on the record like, Sharon Osbourne,
00:43:39
but she didn't work there well and look, every I'm not gonna
00:43:43
undermine the article too much Tom can do, but it's like, being
00:43:47
from totally outside of it. It's like every bad word, you
00:43:49
could be your, like sex is stand.
00:43:51
I don't know what you mean. But that It's sort of like a
00:43:53
massage. We just like with that it's
00:43:55
like, celebrities being. Like he said, I'd never work in
00:43:58
this business. Again, if I didn't comply with
00:44:00
what the studio wanted, which is like, isn't that what Studios I
00:44:04
have? Literally never at his words
00:44:07
like you'll never work in this business.
00:44:08
Again, I was like but beware of anyone they think they have the
00:44:11
power to say that and let's look at what's going on in the
00:44:14
business right now which is Talent dish really need any of
00:44:17
these companies to be Talent anyway that's really what the
00:44:19
big involution. So yeah yeah but He's right, and
00:44:24
it's accountability. And then measure such feelings
00:44:26
that you could sit in about. Well, that wasn't fair.
00:44:29
Look, what happened to me and you know what?
00:44:32
It was such a weird moment just in general.
00:44:36
So if you wanted to Surf culture in the culture and I think was
00:44:39
still a little bit in that weird moment.
00:44:41
I think there's a fog is lifting to an extent where, you know,
00:44:45
it's now only say sort of thoughtful because I don't want
00:44:48
to be cleared about. What if people's feelings were
00:44:51
hurt A point in conversations with me.
00:44:54
That is undeniably. Something that could happen and
00:44:58
that's because I express myself, incredibly clearly
00:45:02
transparently. And in a very opinionated way in
00:45:04
a way that is occasionally polarizing.
00:45:06
Anyway, then you add a layer to that, which is why I was a you
00:45:11
need to meet Elizabeth to lady, and 87 year old woman from the
00:45:14
north of England who swears more than me.
00:45:17
Let's to she's got a foul them out.
00:45:19
They like and in fact finders you try and not take them.
00:45:22
Nation is. I know there are certain words
00:45:25
that surfaced in terms of Lights Schoolboy humor, pure oil or
00:45:33
whatever as you know really like things you don't really want to
00:45:35
hear necessarily by itself which is a modicum of Truth.
00:45:38
In terms of the perception that you communicate certain way.
00:45:42
You should be a bit more, careful about that in Corporate
00:45:44
America and the same time, what I would say to anyone that took
00:45:47
offense who felt like they were a junior employee or someone
00:45:51
that I was like, was I Adding Excess power and some sort of
00:45:54
toxic environment. Know, I talk to my bosses
00:45:56
precise into the way that I would talk to you and you can
00:45:59
ask them. I remember someone coming up and
00:46:01
saying, did you just tell the CEO come this company?
00:46:03
That he was a pee-pee word. I'm not going to say it because
00:46:07
apparently I'll be attending Summer by saying even though I
00:46:09
use it faster. I'm glad it normally to use them
00:46:13
and I said, no, no, no I didn't call him a p word.
00:46:16
I said he was acting like a pig wash, okay.
00:46:19
And so whatever that you know how her her poor you To use
00:46:23
another swear word in the people come up to me and say, hey,
00:46:25
watch your language. And I understand that but it was
00:46:27
more, probably of manifestation of Ramon, we're transferring you
00:46:32
accused of relations which you know, anyone could use anyone of
00:46:35
any ISM I think that. And then when you go, what is
00:46:38
the defense mechanism for being called a racist?
00:46:41
If you're not. But if you can stand on your
00:46:43
track record is who's you've listed up in the business and
00:46:46
all of my friends disorder. But funnily enough, one of the
00:46:49
most overwhelming areas of support when I had when this
00:46:52
went down. Was a lot of incredibly moist
00:46:54
notes from people who would have been subject.
00:46:56
These so-called isn't since that, they never had any of that
00:46:59
experience and they were sorry. Each other's hand but their
00:47:02
experience was completely different and you're right.
00:47:04
It was like Mom, I remember my lawyer at the time said well
00:47:07
this article basically says everything apart from.
00:47:10
Oh no. You are responsible for the
00:47:12
Kennedy assassination. Oh sorry.
00:47:13
They've added that right now and you know, you question your own
00:47:17
sanity and then when I say the moment was you get accused of
00:47:21
being a racist information. If I were, you surprised were
00:47:24
you surprised to hear these associations?
00:47:26
So why do you say is that when journalist and U-boats are
00:47:29
members of the profession start to add heard about shamash?
00:47:33
Someone's trying to do a hit job on you.
00:47:35
And what you've got is a, she isn't like slightly off-color
00:47:38
remark time. In alleged to have made an
00:47:40
awesome. And trust me, I will remember
00:47:41
the context the reasons for saying it probably clearer than
00:47:45
most. But anyway, it was a moment
00:47:48
because of time George Floyd had been in a murdered in public Or
00:47:52
however you perceive there, and that all the kindest, you know,
00:47:55
half the world, turned their Instagram page, black, and then
00:47:58
told you can't do that. That's not good.
00:48:00
I didn't like people didn't know what to do in response to this
00:48:03
moment as you see it? Like what's the story of like?
00:48:07
What motivated it. It's like the reporters looking
00:48:10
to fit the narrative. It's like employees or looking
00:48:13
to sort of be part of a solution and or it's like you had like
00:48:16
opponents within a company. We're using this moment to like
00:48:21
to go out after you. Oh, my Show surgery.
00:48:23
I like like and I'm by the way to like I say it's such a sort
00:48:26
of weird bubble that I and my family were in the great you
00:48:31
know in terms of by the amount of sleepless nights thinking
00:48:34
about her what would have done differently or whatever spoken
00:48:36
to this puzzle Noreen polite to to that incredibly important
00:48:40
person that was behaving after the appalling me towards all of
00:48:42
the people around them. And it becomes my daughter was
00:48:45
ruthless comforters sanction, people who don't, she'll they
00:48:48
should be sanctioned. And what do they do?
00:48:51
Romesh ancient by someone that They don't want to say for
00:48:53
whether it's soun Osborne who misremembered.
00:48:57
This is a I apparently took a woman to a business meeting with
00:49:01
Sharon Osbourne, which anyone that knows person.
00:49:03
Imagine what going to run a business meeting at Soho house
00:49:07
or no was, it will go for a drink Miss Sharon Osbourne, and
00:49:10
then lady I took his my wife. But the article says I took some
00:49:15
young inappropriate, the young girl to a meeting and and then
00:49:19
no no no no no was still going to leave that in there.
00:49:22
Or have to be malnourished going to feel about it and how come?
00:49:25
So you would told The Hollywood Reporter that the woman that
00:49:28
Sharon Osbourne brought up is like some floozy that you
00:49:30
brought to the bar was in fact, your wife know, my wife wants a
00:49:35
time. When Sharon Osbourne, I was
00:49:37
either which or engaged to my current Battle Stations, like my
00:49:40
wife, my current wife. Yeah, and and so that's slightly
00:49:45
wounding. And then with this way, by
00:49:46
association the toxicity in the obstacles like they want, they
00:49:50
want to mention Trump. This and Trump that like, why?
00:49:53
Because he was on The Apprentice in what I was his boxer, the BBC
00:49:57
go there, then BC, so there was a lot of sort of weird stuff in
00:50:01
there, but the intention to bring me down had been clearly
00:50:05
signaled by the journalists who are press Department months
00:50:08
before the article came out. And he working on this.
00:50:12
Why we've been what told by, Who full of employees?
00:50:19
Yeah, logically but also, some people there that don't really
00:50:22
like him. You know, said the wrong thing
00:50:23
and I was like, okay well I can tell you what, there's no
00:50:27
circumstances under which I is 0, the Bossip, I can't lie,
00:50:30
wouldn't have given me are not in those circumstances, why?
00:50:35
Because it was frankly, all ticked a lot of twaddle, some of
00:50:38
which are take huge responsibility for because I
00:50:41
can't help not why? Because something a very highly
00:50:43
big job. It with a trajectory that
00:50:45
suggested, I might be getting another Outlet, a child anytime
00:50:48
scene and suddenly I'm an independent producer doing what
00:50:51
many other people have to do. In a career comes to an end,
00:50:53
that's not a choice, it's not something you do.
00:50:56
And then you have to be analytical about why it
00:50:58
happened. And you know what?
00:51:00
I am someone that expresses my opinions clearly.
00:51:03
And you know what? With hindsight, here's what I
00:51:06
would say much as I would love to kept that job and I think I
00:51:10
could be making a contribution of that company.
00:51:12
Things happen for a reason and I wouldn't be able to work there
00:51:17
now I hate. Okay so these are just seeing
00:51:19
what's going on. Like I say so in many ways, I
00:51:22
And I'm able to start over and do some interesting things and,
00:51:26
you know, carry on making shows. Because for me, it much more
00:51:29
focused on the consumer that sits behind all of these
00:51:32
platforms and these corporate stories, and stuff like that.
00:51:34
So I'm lucky enough to work toward shows.
00:51:37
We've been involved with creativity.
00:51:39
We're completely random people come up to, you know, in a
00:51:42
conversations. I fucking love American Ninja.
00:51:44
Warrior changed my kid's life or love the voice or what have you
00:51:48
done lately. You know, I've been lucky and I
00:51:51
get to work on something. In terms of like, rebirth in
00:51:54
your career, whatever we talked about the cancer, we didn't use
00:51:57
the word cancel, but I like, I think I can sort of how much did
00:52:02
you feel like hot like your peers or just like the social
00:52:05
environment like canceling about, perhaps at know, how has
00:52:08
it been hard to work with people for was there sort of a testing
00:52:13
period? Where if you were, like, I don't
00:52:14
know. Is he too hot to touch or what's
00:52:17
house? That who is playing?
00:52:19
And I was really what people say about you behind your back.
00:52:22
I think cotton, okay, but my experience in pure facing the
00:52:30
businesses. Most people that need to know
00:52:34
me, know, me and know the truth in one form or another, they
00:52:38
have a like your reaction. Eric is a complete Outsider has
00:52:42
been. I would say, in the case of
00:52:44
someone who's a complete Insider, depending on where they
00:52:47
sort of fall out on the kind of just the pure Personal Taste is
00:52:50
right. Do you like that person?
00:52:52
Yes. You're no quitter.
00:52:53
Can only be legitimate, binary answer, most people that I've
00:52:57
encountered a light, holy shit. What happened to you is?
00:53:01
Just kind of extraordinary. Oh my God if it can happen to
00:53:04
you bluntly it's not that it could happen to anybody but I
00:53:07
think everyone knew the truth about you.
00:53:09
They hired you you exactly the same what day one and maybe the
00:53:11
world in the organization changed but we know the truth
00:53:14
people we know what your passions are and we know we can
00:53:17
rely on you and on the personal level it's like no I've had
00:53:21
right when it was In many ways, part was like, good, wonderful,
00:53:25
but what I've kept every this is the people for a start people,
00:53:31
when your NTC email stops working and your cell phone
00:53:34
doesn't work anymore. There's a period in which people
00:53:38
are trying to reach you that you had no clue about and it takes
00:53:41
months for what were in the main extraordinary.
00:53:44
Good wishes and loads and loads of messages that kind of support
00:53:48
and can't wait to see what you do next and all of that and on a
00:53:51
social level. Have I shall occasion.
00:53:54
You might see in a restaurant in West Hollywood, a couple of eyes
00:53:57
following me around the room and maybe some guy.
00:53:59
Oh, isn't that pull to make deals?
00:54:00
Like and of course, I would lead to the conclusions of do they
00:54:03
think I'm an is a nice time? I am I going to be optimal law.
00:54:08
Go with Nick when tears and Donald Trump or like, what's my
00:54:12
story? Because someone certainly gonna,
00:54:14
you know, whatever. And then any other answer is he
00:54:17
just like you keep on keeping on, and you work with the
00:54:20
people. It's not about pushing against
00:54:22
open those. You work with the people that
00:54:23
just sort of know the truth and social are so good people.
00:54:26
I haven't had anyone say I'm not taking a meeting with you
00:54:30
because of what happened to you, but when meeting new people,
00:54:35
let's just say someone that hasn't had any kind of creative
00:54:37
relationship with me as you can imagine when you go legal.
00:54:42
Thank you, thank you. They are the Articles come up or
00:54:44
versions of it or the weight is reported like in India or
00:54:47
whatever like that the internet. So funny thing and you know,
00:54:51
it's the kind of graffiti. You can't take a sponge to
00:54:53
write, however, you can talk to people and you can be
00:54:58
transparent and you can exhibit the true as it and it's not my
00:55:02
truth there. Choose Our Truth is like, this
00:55:04
is what happened to me. These are the bench.
00:55:06
I think I was in control of and, you know, there's the lessons
00:55:10
I've learned, I'll certainly weren't using the c word in
00:55:12
meetings much in America, but back in England, it seems fine
00:55:14
down the pub and I've never used it in isolation.
00:55:17
Should qualifying it. And it's not a misogynist term
00:55:20
issue using about a man. I guess what?
00:55:22
I don't know, but I'd certainly love to you.
00:55:25
Have to be accountable for your words and actions and you had to
00:55:29
be 20 years ago, 10 years ago, five years ago, five years in
00:55:32
the future, the problem. Yeah, he is bluntly the culture
00:55:38
of how these things are reported and how the news is
00:55:41
disseminated. And you know, I could, I'm a big
00:55:43
boy, this is my last question on this is, I mean, did you?
00:55:47
I just wondered this as a reporter, you know, because you
00:55:49
do have a situation where a source has come to you.
00:55:51
They are all saying A thing, you get enough to create a
00:55:54
narrative, you come to the company, you tell them, this is
00:55:56
what we're hearing. I mean, did you feel that you
00:55:58
were given a fair hearing by the reporters in this?
00:56:02
I'm spoken to either of them. I remember my last interactions
00:56:05
with both of them and I know precisely what they don't like
00:56:07
me. But, and by the way, look, I
00:56:11
could go into elaborate details about things that motivate why.
00:56:14
Someone working for The Hollywood Reporter thinks it's
00:56:15
their job to do that. Okay, good question.
00:56:19
But there's a very good reason why anyone that owns those
00:56:22
businesses Trying to shed them as fast as they can and it not
00:56:25
be bounced around from Pillar To Post because it's just you know,
00:56:30
it's funny at the BBC which is an organization really founded
00:56:34
on the sweat of Journalism and it before it was less you say at
00:56:38
a time when it wasn't an honorable profession, it was
00:56:41
made an honorable profession. By people that put themselves In
00:56:44
Harm's Way in war zones. Harm's Way in investigations
00:56:47
Harm's Way in terms of the checks and balances of power and
00:56:50
politicians. And journalism was an honorable
00:56:54
profession and the search for the truth was important and
00:56:57
Fallon's, not bounce for the sake of event.
00:56:59
Not he said she said and it's all, you know, everyone gets a
00:57:02
view but actually looking for the truth is quite an important
00:57:04
thing. Now, when you are a subject of
00:57:08
one of these owners, lots of phone calls being made to random
00:57:10
people about you and you get the first 20 phone calls from
00:57:15
someone says, hey, I'm not being funny, but I've just had this
00:57:19
journalists asking really weird questions about it.
00:57:22
Mainly by sexual habits and who you've slept with and my, and is
00:57:26
there any dirt on you that they don't already have when you're
00:57:30
in litigation through your company?
00:57:32
And you share that private investigators have been hired
00:57:35
and that they're calling carrots at your kids school and stuff
00:57:38
like that, right? This is a bit Rich because I can
00:57:42
understand the pursuit urge bad people by law enforcement in any
00:57:49
business or the time I can understand the need for
00:57:51
companies to to change and her cultures to evolve and but I
00:57:57
don't understand how a journalist's job involves
00:58:00
calling people and the minute someone says hang on a minute.
00:58:03
That is my experience at all. In fact dot dot dot dot.
00:58:07
The phone is literally hung up hung up.
00:58:10
I'd five people tell me that one of the Germans just hung up on
00:58:13
them in the middle of what they were described as not a defense
00:58:16
of Paul. But no, no.
00:58:17
That wasn't my experience. Well, thanks goodbye.
00:58:19
Thanks goodbye. Or look good.
00:58:22
And so it doesn't feel like that Jones.
00:58:26
It's what I would say. Yeah, well I mean II can under.
00:58:29
Yeah. I mean, why it happens is a
00:58:30
reporter. You start out your like, you're
00:58:32
looking for like a recurring theme.
00:58:34
I think one of the problems in these cancel culture articles is
00:58:38
like the kitchen sink ones. We're just sort of like, oh,
00:58:40
they seem to be presented as bad.
00:58:42
And, every sort of issue, it's one thing.
00:58:45
If it's, you're like, oh, there's a specific problem.
00:58:48
We're like the whole story's built around, you know, I don't
00:58:52
know. No something specific unless you
00:58:54
citing not knowing one was never be cool.
00:58:57
Okay. And neither, is that.
00:58:58
And by the way, like like it's a you lived through it, you kind
00:59:04
of metabolize the, you know, funny enough that toxic word
00:59:09
that, you know, it's an interesting one because you
00:59:13
definitely know that you've come into contact with the toxic
00:59:17
environment, okay? Like you know it you know it,
00:59:20
you feel it and things normally Double-click to actually around
00:59:23
that kind of toxicity and the journalists thesis about me.
00:59:29
It's it's very strange started years ago.
00:59:35
Years ago, an artist, I've pinpointed to a specific for the
00:59:39
small interaction. That's all I can say.
00:59:43
That thing's got quite personal. It seems to those two people and
00:59:46
I don't have a clue. Why.
00:59:47
And that once you've got a thesis, no one likes to be told
00:59:51
if you imagine I've got this amazing thesis and this is the
00:59:54
decency, this is a man. I'm going to back it up.
00:59:56
Well, your thesis is wrong. No, it isn't.
00:59:58
I'll be working on this thesis for 10 years.
01:00:00
What's wrong? Right.
01:00:01
Okay. Well, now I'm going to publish
01:00:02
it anyway. Well, how about it and, you
01:00:04
know, No in the what was right or wrong, you know, I'm through
01:00:09
it, my family's do, it was hard for a bit and you know what?
01:00:13
It was a bubble. I was in and it's three years
01:00:16
Cumberland. Say it's nearly three years on
01:00:18
their mean fat and say more things in the world to worry
01:00:20
about. Yeah, well, okay.
01:00:22
I mean, I really appreciate you talking about.
01:00:24
I know it isn't easy. But last thing Paul just in
01:00:27
terms of you know your time a top NBC, you had a deal with
01:00:30
them. Sure.
01:00:31
A lot of celebrities interesting, interactions any
01:00:35
Trump stories. I mean, you were his boss for a
01:00:37
couple of years. What can you tell me about the
01:00:39
time? He was the head of the
01:00:40
apprentice and what it was like over seeing the man who would be
01:00:43
king goodness gracious me. Well, you know what?
01:00:47
It was just bizarre X is the anywhere can put it.
01:00:51
And you know what? I feel like for the sake of
01:00:54
people that being so discreet about what's alleged or isn't
01:00:57
alleged to have happened on the set of that show, I never
01:01:01
witnessed anything and I thought I hundreds Come.
01:01:05
So she used to call me every Monday morning after the show
01:01:07
went out singer. Slept, you Pratt said Trump.
01:01:09
Every Monday morning after the show, went out to read me, the
01:01:14
ratings analysis, that Burr, Alberto was reading from a fact
01:01:20
that I have someone in my office or someone at our organization
01:01:23
is said to be okay, but so I'm surprised you didn't print it
01:01:28
out and read it and Sharpie. I thought that was his style
01:01:30
usually right at the well, you know, but why we should get
01:01:33
loads of faxes with his handwriting.
01:01:35
We have to keep a fax machine in the office, because she was the
01:01:37
last person facts in last, man. Fact he didn't have a computer
01:01:39
on his desk, not sent me with get emails from drone or, and
01:01:42
his assistant and stuff like that.
01:01:44
But, you know, I want to, I want to kind of, I must give you a
01:01:47
tip, it having answer that question, but honestly, I never
01:01:50
saw him do anything that fell into the category bird suit.
01:01:54
Let's say the nonsense that he embarked on was a political
01:01:57
career. But for journalists, I thought
01:02:00
this was interesting and I think it's really interesting in the
01:02:02
context of like Ceylon and Twitter.
01:02:04
That there was this moment and it was sometime in the Obama
01:02:10
presidency when he started going on about birth and stuff.
01:02:13
So and a bottle is came into office.
01:02:15
Literally six minutes of eating, the inauguration was like a few
01:02:19
months off, a couple of months. After I joined NBC suits like
01:02:21
the week off the Golden Globes or something.
01:02:24
And I think that he's eating burnt on this boat certificate
01:02:28
bullshit a bit earlier in the process.
01:02:32
And I said I remember talking to him because I don't know whether
01:02:35
it was that we had a particularly African-American
01:02:38
cast on that season of The Apprentice or what I don't even
01:02:40
know what the reasons. But the reasons were saying this
01:02:44
shit is racist. Honor that implying, you know,
01:02:48
any percentual European. I'm Hungarian but anyone that is
01:02:53
challenged to produce pieces of paper to prove who they are
01:02:56
creates kind of visceral relationship with happy that bit
01:02:59
that you know. Like, you know, we don't have to
01:03:02
True we are. And you do you told him that and
01:03:05
you you doing this to Obama is racist?
01:03:10
And I was like, Ultron Eve double jumper races though, it's
01:03:12
like all its perceived as racist, somehow I would have
01:03:14
qualified it possibly and he goes.
01:03:17
Yeah, but every time I tweet about it, Twitter was new to
01:03:20
him. I get another 10 followers.
01:03:23
He goes, you know, I've got more followers than the New York
01:03:26
Times has circulation because when I tweet more people, see it
01:03:30
then read the New York Times. Eh, eh, the New York Times for
01:03:33
his like, going on and on about the new outside, I'm bigger than
01:03:35
the New York Times, and he made this visceral connection between
01:03:41
popularity and strong opinion in this specific space where he's
01:03:46
like, I don't think a people will listen to my tweets on oil
01:03:48
prices. People would witness to my
01:03:50
dressing room and what was most extraordinary was?
01:03:56
I was just assuming they're allowed a research and we'd His
01:04:02
we could see popularity was in fact shunting up with every -
01:04:07
abama to eat and it was it was as in four years after I feel
01:04:11
like it was, you know, I don't know what that I couldn't date
01:04:14
stamp it, but it just was very interesting to me that he had
01:04:19
made the connection between the influence of social media and
01:04:23
its ability to reach people. And so anyway, like was it bad
01:04:29
for the show or a good for that? Like he was getting more popular
01:04:31
but His for advertisers use becoming more negative or he was
01:04:35
still doing the show when he was doing the birther stuff.
01:04:37
Yeah, I know that she was that he was he was, and it was just
01:04:40
like a goddess and we're you calling him because it's sort of
01:04:43
gone escalated or your decision. It's just the wrong thing to be
01:04:48
saying you know, and please don't do it, I could speak it
01:04:51
reflects badly and by the way, I think it was that during a
01:04:53
season in which And forgetting who is on it.
01:04:56
But I feel like was fight. No one's to be the people that
01:05:00
are saying. Hell, Yeah.
01:05:01
Do your tweets. You should be very careful about
01:05:04
things people but you know what? He was what I'd say is
01:05:11
eccentric. Irascible, not always on time
01:05:15
took quite a long time. To do fairly simple things, but
01:05:19
I never saw him do anything that fell into the categories of that
01:05:24
which is laterally kind. Celebrated for and I think that
01:05:27
that was like, everyone was like, trust me.
01:05:29
He said, the this word that word this way, don't think we would
01:05:33
have heard if she didn't use that word onset, interesting.
01:05:36
And of course, don't we don't think we wouldn't have
01:05:38
sanctioned Egan. Donald Trump.
01:05:40
Should stop the main reason. The show went away, was the
01:05:44
ratings were in the tub. The format had tied itself out
01:05:48
and was brought back with the celebrity version by Silverman
01:05:51
Ben Silverman as a kind of Hail Mary for the format and it
01:05:55
Worked and it gave it whole other additional life.
01:05:58
And it was real did during a strike here.
01:06:00
And reality programming has this funny ability were like, well,
01:06:03
we need another hour, so they expanded the one-hour episodes
01:06:06
to our episodes and they were able to do that and carry on.
01:06:10
So it was always a construct. The Apprentice that kind of
01:06:14
worked until it didn't and yeah, but I mean, one day for a
01:06:19
cocktail and off the Record it's not it's not like the specifics
01:06:22
had, like the weirdness of just what occasionally would Down the
01:06:26
pipe, would like his millat, here's your Banker friends with
01:06:28
of who's in the room. Why missing in this, like
01:06:31
videoed image with like, say, hey, I think I know these people
01:06:36
and then, you know, one day and I think it needs to be like 25
01:06:39
years in the future that what happened when he came down that
01:06:43
escalator and said that, you know, makes you go sends us,
01:06:48
there were sort of sure there were as the rapist that was
01:06:52
turbulent. 72 hours of my life. Life.
01:06:56
I have to say which culminated in, like, literally.
01:06:59
I don't remember fired him. So like there's not many people
01:07:02
that have done that with totals and it was extremely wound
01:07:07
stream, Lee difficult and then funnily enough, I didn't, I was
01:07:12
pretty. Once you've fired, someone your
01:07:14
relationship with him changes throughout it, doesn't it?
01:07:17
And the reasons that we find him and then let's just say people
01:07:21
above me in the industry. Still thought it was really
01:07:25
important that the company I work for maintain the kind of
01:07:28
cord, you more collaborative relationship with Trump as he
01:07:31
actually moved from running joke to actually running 78 cents.
01:07:37
And I also remember walking up stairs, after seeing announced
01:07:40
his Run for the presidency and literally, there wasn't a person
01:07:44
that knew Trump well at our company who said his odds of
01:07:48
winning better than 50/50. In fact, once he's on the
01:07:52
ticket, once he's running, It's pretty Unstoppable.
01:07:54
He knows the game. He really does know how he we he
01:07:58
had been hand-picked to train for a sound bite.
01:08:01
You know. Once you've worked on a reality
01:08:03
show, you can see and once you'd learn the relationship between
01:08:07
words and reaction to Words, which you kind of learn as a
01:08:11
public trigger on a TV show, it was pretty likely, he was going
01:08:15
to win, I remember Rachel Maddow coming to retreat and she was
01:08:18
like guys if he's running he's but based on statistics alone,
01:08:21
it's better than 50/50. He wins.
01:08:23
And I was like to see 250 plus and Trump Factor, certainly is a
01:08:26
one-term president. He's going to win it.
01:08:28
So Lord, help us for all still still talking about him and I
01:08:32
think he's still planning on trying to disrupt this next
01:08:35
election cycle with whether he runs in Paul's or gets arrested,
01:08:38
I don't know what happens next shit show.
01:08:41
Yeah, the unending should show. Well that's yeah, there was so
01:08:47
much. I didn't know we would cover, I
01:08:51
really enjoy podcast. This is extremely careful about
01:08:59
what I say to but thank you for making me.
01:09:02
Come soon enough to share a bit and by the way, Tom, I know you
01:09:04
were uncomfortable about asking what happened to me, right?
01:09:08
Which was the point of bringing you on of course I talked to
01:09:10
talk more about that. You know, I do appreciate you
01:09:12
going into it and you know, speaking to it as best, you are
01:09:16
able to. Because I think it's, you know,
01:09:18
I guess what I always like to do because it's show we sort of
01:09:21
focus on the journalist. View of the stories that were
01:09:24
covering in the industries that we cover and you know, both Eric
01:09:27
and I have written very hard pieces about Executives and I
01:09:30
always find it valuable to talk to people who've been on the
01:09:33
other side of a new cycle. Yeah.
01:09:34
Just think we don't get a lot of sense of that typically and you
01:09:38
know it is a legitimate side to every story that journalists are
01:09:41
sometimes ignorant. Well look I'll take the, it's
01:09:43
really you guys are part of a really important profession.
01:09:46
It's never been more important. And I think that is going
01:09:49
through an evolution in terms of the partnership between whoever
01:09:52
pays a paycheck for it. Journalists and the distribution
01:09:55
method. Is that right?
01:09:57
Twitter, major in this quite famous individuals that time or
01:10:00
social media meant that you could have your own personal
01:10:02
journalist brand, and it became something that everyone was
01:10:05
pursuing, which is that it's it's great to be successful
01:10:09
powerful to you, and make money doing a job.
01:10:11
But if your job is hate to use this word, quite important,
01:10:15
which the searching the truth and is then, I think we have yet
01:10:20
to kind of read level set That job description is in the new
01:10:26
world of you don't work for a newspaper publisher, or
01:10:29
proprietor your editor, might not you may never see the, you
01:10:33
know, like whatever it is. There's a kind of new world of
01:10:36
how to my experience wasn't great.
01:10:38
But I would say in the May, when I talk to journalists and when I
01:10:41
meet them around the place, not just in our business, great at
01:10:45
their jobs, looking for interesting stories, their
01:10:47
story, tellers like us, and I've enjoyed my relationship with the
01:10:52
pressing, the maid. Yeah, well thanks for doing this
01:10:54
part. We really appreciate it.
01:10:55
Thanks for coming on, goodbye. Goodbye.
01:11:10
Goodbye, goodbye. Goodbye.
01:11:12
Goodbye. Goodbye.