The Twitter / Elon saga entered a new phase today. Elon Musk reversed course and agreed to buy Twitter at the previously agreed upon $44 billion. But we’re still thinking about Musk’s text messages that came out as part of discovery in the Delaware court case.
On the latest episode of Dead Cat, we reveled in the many bizarre and often sycophantic texts that emerged during discovery. Tom Dotan and Eric Newcomer, along with recurring guest New York Times reporter Erin Griffith, give a close reading to the private messages of the Silicon Valley glitterati.
We dish on texts from All-In hosts Jason Calacanis and David Sacks, Palantir co-founder Joe Lonsdale, and Salesforce co-CEO Marc Benioff. Would Emil Michael or Bill Gurley make for a better Twitter CEO?
Fellow Substacker Alex Kantrowitz did a great job compiling some of the greatest hits. So you can read along.
We mourn our shattered reality that Musk’s texts aren’t full of Grade A genius ideas for reforming Twitter.
Give it a listen.
Get full access to Newcomer at www.newcomer.co/subscribe
00:00:06
Welcome salad. Hey everybody.
00:00:14
Welcome to Dead cat. Tom here joined by Eric newcomer
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and our official dead. Pat legal correspondent and New
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York Times. Reporter Erin Griffith.
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How's it going? How's it going area?
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I like that. I like that title.
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Thank yeah, yeah I think you can.
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You can put it on your business card on my way then yeah, I can
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endorse that. So very Tom had his catalytic
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converter, stolen in San Francisco today.
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So he's he's mustering all his like, professionalism not to be
00:00:45
in full meltdown. As he turns into David's tax
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style conservative before our very eyes to gorgeous full like
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San Francisco vigilante. Like, I just don't believe in
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any sort of felt like, forget, like David Sachs law.
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I just want to like, Shut down the bastard myself.
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I'm Steve McQueen. Anyway, we have a very exciting
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episode. We've got all the disclosures
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from the Elon Musk, Twitter lawsuit, with lots of emails
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that show all the idiosyncrasies of the Silicon Valley, Elite
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their tactics and we should say that here we are.
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Huge fans of texts, discovered through legal correspondence and
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discovery. Name of the show actually does
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derive from another lawsuit in which texts were disclosed as
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part of Discovery. So huge fans, huge fans of tech
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leaked, any leaks, discovered texts.
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When this kind of stuff happens, that's incredible.
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It's like heaven. It's like everything we try to
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do, but poorly, but at a huge scale, and weigh more than fat,
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we barely had to do any work to get it.
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You did nothing, we need to find the best podcast, name out of
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these, these Filings and I haven't read with nice nuts.
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Would be a start, do not Grande's, is that okay?
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I'm gonna grind, that's a good. That's a good episode name.
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That is definitely the mice nuts.
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Is that sax that's asking about his pittance, you know, in his
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ability to contribute to the GoFundMe to buy to buy Twitter
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that he all right. We all have our favorites out of
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these. I mean I haven't picked mine but
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I'm sure but how let's get them out to the audience, hear you?
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I kind of did at the outset but we can we can go through a
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little bit more. Chronologically Elon Musk is
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going to be deposed as part of the lawsuit that Twitter filed,
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against him to enforce the terms of their contract.
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When he signed a legally binding agreement to buy Twitter, a
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couple of the deal. We rely on tried to due
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diligence after signing the deal to buy the company instead of
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before. Yeah, I'm no lawyer but not
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recommended so and A Delaware Chancery Court released, a full,
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dump of text messages obtained through to apparently.
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If you read through the full filings, Twitter is upset that I
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didn't get more from it. They felt there were relevant
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things that were not included in this, that they're trying to,
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you know, they want more. And so it still 40 pages of text
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messages. Yeah, you guys were.
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I've read. Yeah, the highlights, we read
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them all and let me tell you guys, all the stars are here all
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the stars. So here Everyone and summer.
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And and some randos. Basically, Elon Musk to say that
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like Twitter misrepresented itself, and the fact that it has
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a major Bots problem, which would make the price that they
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agreed to, or that he, you know, put forth and Twitter,
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ultimately agreed to was not a do provable, use the Elan, just
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want to do the deal. Twitter has an in the agreement
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to sell the company, Twitter was allowed to force, Ilan to do the
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deal even if you no longer want to do it.
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So they're trying to force him an Elon is trying to say that.
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Twitter made mistake Mints, not directly to him but in their
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financial filings which would have been material and would
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have changed his interest in buying the company of course in
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these texts they're hysterical places where Elon basically
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says, oh yeah, I know there's a big problem with, like fake
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accounts and that you couldn't run Twitter as a public company
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and fix the fake accounts because they would lose so many
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users. And so, that's why you needed to
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take it private in the first place.
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I found that text message. Yeah.
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Super damning, what some people talked about us like The Smoking
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Gun. There are others that sort of
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indicate that he knew about the bomb problem before he agreed to
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the deal. Which Twitter is obviously going
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used to point to the fact that? Yeah.
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Just the sudden thing that he discovered after great used to
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find the deal. Yeah, there's there's also a
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really great one where he says that he texts Sean Parker from
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his mom's apartment and says he's doing Twitter.
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Diligent calls. And this due diligence, this is
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the one month after. He signs a lie, right?
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He's just starting pilchard. I'm ugly.
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Yeah, daily and just, just to be as generous as possible.
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It could have been Bill gents for getting investors to come
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on, to back his to finances has deal.
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He could have been, you know, doing Belgian from the other
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direction. But it doesn't really read that.
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Yeah, and just from a larger perspective, the one thing that
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I really got from these Tech out the one thing, but one of the
00:05:32
things that you got from these taxes, that it kind of puts to
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bed. Finally decide Iya.
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This is all some big joke that Elon, you know, was just doing
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it as a troll. They never intended to buy this
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company that had ordered sort of kind of got out of control, you
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can really see through the course of these texts.
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It does really seem like Jack was the seed planter for idea of
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down your Twitter. Former CEO guy who controlled
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Twitter like the most but somehow acts like It's this like
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company that has nothing to do with him and he's like a wire, a
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fascinating character. And what is interesting that he
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talks about at one point. He's like, well, I couldn't
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really do, I could never do what I wanted to do with it because
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Twitter doesn't have super voting shares and it's like oh,
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that's so funny because like, Facebook managed to get that but
00:06:19
Twitter, because they had so much drama in the beginning of
00:06:21
their company were not able to give their Founders.
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The most basic thing that even the crappiest startups, get
00:06:28
these days which is like, Total iron-fisted control super voting
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shares, you know, if I die, my children will control the
00:06:37
something right if I install puppet, like they, you can't
00:06:42
stop me. Yeah, one of the defining
00:06:44
characteristics of this agent Tech is like the lack of anyone
00:06:48
wanting to take responsibility for the products that they built
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the companies, they built the cultures that they have, you
00:06:54
know, pushed forward. And Twitter is the best example
00:06:56
of that. Because here you have Jack
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Dorsey, more responsible than Anyone else in the creation of
00:07:01
this and running of this company basically saying yeah this is
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this, I don't know what's going on here.
00:07:06
This doesn't really make any sense to me.
00:07:07
I know relationship with the board to structure this very
00:07:11
quickly because there's so much meat on the bone here and I want
00:07:13
to make sure we covered all. I think there are a couple where
00:07:16
there's like, you know, some relevance to the actual
00:07:19
substance of the case. I think the Elan parag, parag,
00:07:23
being the Twitter CEO that was installed by Jack Dorsey, rock
00:07:26
wall will talk about those and any others.
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This seemed actually substitutive.
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We've covered a couple then. I think the real Joy of this is
00:07:35
just the totally useless ones that are only like fun because
00:07:38
they're like snapshots into the world these guys inhabit.
00:07:42
And then finally, Aaron has her story about bro culture, which I
00:07:48
disagree with impart and I'm happy to know.
00:07:51
Yeah. Anyway, get into that.
00:07:52
So what you can tell from these taxes that Elon and parag seem
00:07:57
to get along pretty well at first, and Have some sort of a
00:08:00
connection over the fact that they're both engineering types.
00:08:04
There are techie types are people who speak in code and
00:08:07
understand each other to that way.
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And so I'm going to pull a couple of the highlights that
00:08:12
our buddy Alex kantrowitz on his on his blog.
00:08:15
Big technology. It's a newsletter.
00:08:17
It's a newsletter. Yes, right.
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It's a vlog shit. His wooden surface 1990 or
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something. Yeah, he did a decent job kind
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of curating, some of the funnier ones and so I'm scrolling down
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here. He goes, isn't he like treat me
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like an engineer or talk to me, like I'm gonna take me like,
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what a engineering journals here.
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I interface way better with Engineers who were able to do
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hard core programming than with program.
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Managers / can be a types of people and then parag response
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in. Our next convo treat me like I'm
00:08:50
an engineer and co-ceo, let's see what we get to.
00:08:54
So thank you. Let me try other out there
00:08:56
trying to figure out what their Dynamic is.
00:08:58
And ultimately They discover that it's not great and we
00:09:03
should say right before this Jack is telling Ilan, you know,
00:09:07
I've installed parag as the next CEO.
00:09:09
I've seen this guy for a while, he's a real technical type you
00:09:12
guys should get along great. Like, you guys, really you guys
00:09:15
really understand each other through that way and and it does
00:09:17
seem like they have a decent thing.
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Going over text until Elon starts getting a poll on
00:09:23
Twitter. The next day you are free to
00:09:25
tweet, quote, is Twitter, dying or anything else about Twitter,
00:09:29
but it's my My responsibility to tell you that it's not helping
00:09:32
me make Twitter better in the current context.
00:09:35
Next time we speak I'll do there's a little bit of a I'd
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like you to provide always messed up here.
00:09:41
I'd like you to provide you perspective on the level of
00:09:44
internal distraction right now and how it's hurting our ability
00:09:47
to do work, I hope the AMA will help you.
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Help people get to know you to understand why you believe in
00:09:52
Twitter and to trust you. I'd like the company to get to a
00:09:55
place where we are more resilient and don't get
00:09:57
distracted but we aren't there. Now and then Ilan response.
00:10:02
What did you get done this week? I'm not joining the board.
00:10:07
This is a waste of time. We'll make an offer to take
00:10:10
Twitter private. Amazing incredible.
00:10:13
As you asked, did you guys watch the documentary on Disney Plum
00:10:20
if you let it be, there's this part where they're just they
00:10:23
really hate each other, the most of the beginning of the making
00:10:25
this album and George hair The Beatles.
00:10:28
Yeah. And George Harrison is like I
00:10:30
hate this. I just put the Beatles.
00:10:31
I just left the peoples and he just walks out.
00:10:34
And it's just like, oh, wow, they actually caught it on tape
00:10:36
him saying, like, let the record show, I just put the Beatles, he
00:10:38
hasn't called me back a couple days later, but I feel like this
00:10:41
is the Twitter Ilan version of. I just put the Beatles, right?
00:10:44
Just simply, like, I'm not joining the board.
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What did you get done? This week is just is God has to
00:10:49
be a mean already, right? Like I'm on Steel on Fanboys.
00:10:52
It's actually like, it's just it's chilling.
00:10:55
And then we think that he did that, just like that was when he
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decided like just Snapped on a dime.
00:11:00
Like I'm buying this thing because I can't stand this guy
00:11:04
so much because he's telling me what I can and can't tweet.
00:11:07
I do think we can underplay. The amount that Jack played into
00:11:12
elon's, wanting to go ahead and buy this because, you know, I
00:11:16
was he convinced them to join the board which was a big part
00:11:19
of it. But I do think he was thinking
00:11:21
slightly longer term plan here which was like eventually he
00:11:24
will control his company and so it that might have been you know
00:11:28
the seed was planted and it just Started to, you know, growth
00:11:31
spurt, right then. But that was definitely an
00:11:33
accelerant that Jack Jack comes off as just like the worst.
00:11:37
It's like you installed this guy and then you didn't achieve any
00:11:42
of the things you wanted and now you're like goading on Ilan to
00:11:46
like basically fuck over your company.
00:11:50
Yeah, well I mean to go back to Jack just to scroll back a
00:11:53
little bit here, Elon and Jack have a discussion.
00:11:55
I think before the parag implosion where Elon says Yeah,
00:12:00
basically sets up a call with Jack and they end up, you know,
00:12:03
talking one and a half hours later.
00:12:04
Elon Musk says to him. Thanks great conversation and
00:12:07
Jack's like always I couldn't be happier, you're doing this.
00:12:10
I've wanted it for a long time. I got a motional what I learned
00:12:13
it was finally possible. So there are mechanisms in place
00:12:17
here, there's no question. So here's a question and maybe
00:12:19
I'm jumping ahead a little bit but like has Jack said anything
00:12:22
about how he feels about Elon trying to get out of the deal
00:12:25
now? Like as he heartbroken or is he
00:12:27
supporting elon's? Yeah, to get out of know.
00:12:31
It's a great mystery to me. I want to say he hasn't said
00:12:34
almost anything about it. I think once, you know, it
00:12:36
became a legal matter, you know, people try to be a little bit
00:12:40
other people naughty Lon but it'd be a little more
00:12:42
circumspect over the shit that they said publicly.
00:12:45
I mean they're all going to get subpoenaed and deposed anyway.
00:12:47
So you know, stuff will come out, but I think Jack has been
00:12:51
pretty quiet about all. I mean, I just wonder how all
00:12:53
the all the people who are like just supporting him and egging
00:12:56
him on behind the scenes, you know, they're so excited for
00:12:59
him. On Twitter if they're now like
00:13:01
so excited for him to not on Twitter because that's what he
00:13:05
wants. It's I think they have
00:13:07
complicated allegiances especially like the real deal on
00:13:10
cheerleaders because listen I'll admit it here I listen to the
00:13:13
Alwyn podcast from time to time which they, you know, those
00:13:17
characters figure quite problem, right hits.
00:13:20
You the text that we're going to have fun with later but you
00:13:22
know, in paying attention to them, they were all gung, ho for
00:13:25
Ilan to come in and fix this company, which we can see in the
00:13:28
text. And now they, Have to be 0
00:13:30
because they're Ilan. You know, they're like the
00:13:32
salacious crumb to elon's Jabba the Hutt like they're all now
00:13:35
having to like push the party line that like Elon is right?
00:13:38
There's a bot problem as companies messed up, they pulled
00:13:40
a fast one on him and so it's very difficult for them to
00:13:43
reconcile the like, Elon will fix this with, like Elon should
00:13:47
not be forced to own this company because it's so broken.
00:13:50
I'm sorry. Jason you don't come off very
00:13:52
well in these text messages, everyone knows who Jason is.
00:13:55
I think he's 100 percent up front with the you know, the
00:13:59
people he's talking. About his relationship and his
00:14:01
you know the fact that he's a buddy with Ilan for years.
00:14:03
Jason started marketing, a SPD to vehicle.
00:14:09
Basically a special purpose vehicle to round up a bunch of
00:14:12
money 250k by to invest in the Twitter elon's, Twitter, take
00:14:18
private deal and you know this is what Jason does.
00:14:20
He has lots of STDs that he invests in you know, startups
00:14:25
basically, he rallies the troops with his followers and they all
00:14:28
invest behind. Him and get to participate in
00:14:31
his deals and he makes money off of the carry on that.
00:14:34
And so he was doing this for you all have deal and EF sudden
00:14:38
basically comes over you like why are you marketing this to
00:14:41
randos? It makes me look desperate,
00:14:43
please stop it. You know my Jared birchall my
00:14:47
advisor and Morgan Stanley our sis and then Jason like you know
00:14:51
kind of backtracks and he's like oh I'm so sorry.
00:14:53
I love you bro, Grande for you. Yeah.
00:14:59
Grenade. He says Grande as it happens.
00:15:03
He is he'll on responds with a heart.
00:15:06
I know that's the real power of iMessage is giving him so much
00:15:09
power. You just like you know, rewards
00:15:11
all these people with their sycophantic responses with like
00:15:15
hearts and likes. Yeah, I mean people talk about
00:15:18
how when you reach a certain you know, Echelon of wealth you were
00:15:21
surrounded by, you know, sick offense and people who only tell
00:15:25
you the things you want to hear and this might be one of the
00:15:27
more pure, you know exhibitions Of that.
00:15:30
Right? I mean isn't that just
00:15:32
exhausting to be happy? You don't like seeing that
00:15:35
Justice inbound of constantly people a sucking up to you.
00:15:39
Be trying to trying to get something from you and if
00:15:42
they're not then you're wondering what their ultimate
00:15:44
game is. I mean later on Jason is or
00:15:47
maybe it's earlier I don't remember which order these
00:15:49
things happened in but at one point Jason's pitching in with
00:15:51
all these ideas and they're kind of like wine each other up on
00:15:55
what the possibilities of Twitter are and you know Ilan
00:15:59
ask Jason Like do you want to be an advisor?
00:16:01
And Jason is like yes. Oh my God, my dream job is CEO
00:16:05
of Twitter. Like, you know, he said
00:16:07
something about a sword like you have my sword and and so, you
00:16:12
know, it works, you know, if you're coming to him with all
00:16:15
these ideas and he's gonna like maybe put you in a position of
00:16:18
power, like the asked him to be an advisor.
00:16:20
So yeah, Jason's just being Jason.
00:16:23
I think like he's been around the Tech Community for.
00:16:27
It's got to be like right 5 and I really do He's in somehow
00:16:31
Sachs was allowed to organize. Yeah.
00:16:34
And as or I don't know if that happened but David know Sark was
00:16:37
basically proposed it. I'm not sure that he actually
00:16:40
said, yeah. But anyway just to finish up on
00:16:42
the Jake helping because I do think he's been getting a lot of
00:16:44
shit for it and I say people have made up their mind about
00:16:47
him, this shouldn't change anything about it.
00:16:49
I think he's being exactly what people know him as and if you
00:16:52
like it, you're fine with it. You think he's obnoxious and you
00:16:54
know, this is just more proof for that.
00:16:56
But like I said, Jake, he'll just be in Jai Kell.
00:16:59
He loves me law and he's buddy, you know, this one of the Cure
00:17:03
like most insightful dynamics that I have encountered in
00:17:08
describing, like, male male relationships, is like Billy
00:17:12
Bush, and Donald Trump. If you think about the way they
00:17:14
interacted during the Access Hollywood say, oh my God, this
00:17:17
is not, this is not too different from that, you know,
00:17:19
it's like Jake, help me a little Billy Bush and and and Yvonne's
00:17:23
being a little trunk. Anyway, Jason deal on board,
00:17:26
member advisor, whatever you have my sword.
00:17:29
You know? I think he says like, oh yeah,
00:17:32
he literally says another message, put me in coach, put me
00:17:36
in the game coach. He also has lots of ideas.
00:17:39
He had he okay, the Grande typos is pretty funny but the other
00:17:43
one was that he was talking about.
00:17:45
Justin beaver. Did you guys see that one?
00:17:48
No, I missed that one. What is just a few do?
00:17:49
Because he doesn't there, they're talking about ideas, and
00:17:52
they're saying like we are talking about all these ways to
00:17:54
like chart to make more money from Twitter.
00:17:56
And one of them is like to have instant, he Why you suggest like
00:18:01
we should get mr. B's to make videos or whatever.
00:18:03
And I wonder why he's like, we should have allow, like,
00:18:07
influencers to pay money to like, send a DM to all of their
00:18:12
followers at once. And he's like, Justin beaver
00:18:15
could like, DM millions of followers and sell merchandise
00:18:19
that way and right which sounds like a terrible spammy idea but
00:18:23
I just I mean regardless the Justin Bieber made me laugh.
00:18:27
Yeah. Overall I mean, Just the amount
00:18:30
that they are just regular ideas that you would find on Twitter.
00:18:34
The key thing is that they're all like buddies and know each
00:18:36
other, but it's not like, oh man, you know, if you really see
00:18:41
the quality of like ideation going on in like Elon musk's
00:18:45
text threads, you'll really understand why he's the guy who
00:18:48
needs to buy it. It's like, no, it's all it's all
00:18:51
just sort of fine. Like, maybe that's a good idea,
00:18:53
but it's not the kind of, you know, you would very much.
00:18:55
See the same sorts of ideas, unlike horse random Twitter
00:18:58
threads about You should improve improve the inside Twitter.
00:19:02
Like, I'm sure employees of pitch this, right?
00:19:05
Like, they haven't thought of it this way.
00:19:07
I am not like an expert who can evaluate which are good and
00:19:11
which are bad ideas. But like I'm one thing that one
00:19:15
thing that is like the New York Times Reporter doing really
00:19:20
good. Yeah, I kind of look like you
00:19:23
are on his expertise. Does not lie in social media or
00:19:28
sort of, you know, No, these businesses, and yeah, and they
00:19:32
sell for this kind of stuff. And I do think it's sort of
00:19:35
interesting. And a lot of people that are
00:19:37
pitching him ideas are not necessarily even experts on this
00:19:40
stuff, but everyone has ideas. And I do think it's sort of
00:19:44
interesting this like 10 of Silicon Valley idea that's like
00:19:49
really prominent is like once you're successful in one thing
00:19:52
you sort of assume that it's all because you're a genius and and
00:19:55
that automatically translates to any other thing that you could
00:19:59
possibly. Possibly try bro, man, and I
00:20:01
feel like that's kind of comes through a little bit in some of
00:20:04
these tags. Sure.
00:20:05
And it's also just a fascinating like, psychological exploration
00:20:09
of, you know, when there is no dissenting voices inside a room,
00:20:13
when these jam sessions are happening uninhibited and people
00:20:16
are throwing out ideas, and because they have been
00:20:19
surrounded by so many, Yes, Men. When they're at a certain
00:20:21
Echelon of success, that they don't really take a step back to
00:20:25
think, maybe some of these ideas have been tried.
00:20:28
Maybe they've been tried. And failed.
00:20:30
Maybe there's a reason why they don't exist.
00:20:32
But like the Mania that is going on as people are pitching and
00:20:35
ideas is clearly. What fueled this belief that
00:20:38
like, oh I could buy Twitter and make it really, really
00:20:41
successful. Look at all these ideas that I
00:20:43
have. I'm just I'm overflowing with
00:20:45
ideas that I bet have never been tried and that's the reason
00:20:47
Twitter isn't working because they have a lack of ideas.
00:20:50
I mean it's completely bankrupt. What I think is so crazy is that
00:20:54
like Twitter is like one of the most mediocre businesses to get
00:20:59
Really large and in Silicon Valley, right?
00:21:02
But this obsession over how, how much power there is in being in
00:21:08
charge of. It is, like, just so fascinating
00:21:10
to me, like, I don't think, like, just say, it was Facebook
00:21:13
or some other company. There would not be this like
00:21:16
crazy like Rush of people being like, how can I get close to
00:21:21
this power and like somehow use it, use it to influence things
00:21:25
in the way that I want them to go.
00:21:26
I just you know, like Twitter has always been sort of like An
00:21:29
also-ran business-wise it's like, oh yeah Twitter can you
00:21:32
ban Trump? You know, that's I guess that's
00:21:35
it. Yeah I guess I guess that's it
00:21:38
like this as far as yeah that goes I mean looking through the
00:21:41
well, Joe Lonsdale is in there. Being, you know, saying I was
00:21:44
just talking to, you know, Governor Ron DeSantis.
00:21:47
And that's where you see sort of the power coming in.
00:21:50
It's not so much that the like, I don't know, intelligence or
00:21:55
the sort of Genius of their ideas are at a different level.
00:21:58
It just sort of these are all such Powerful and wealthy people
00:22:01
that they are talking to other people that matter, you know.
00:22:04
And that's sort of what, what elevates the conversation.
00:22:07
And, but the actual like subject matter, the ideas just doesn't
00:22:12
feel so different than like a normal, like shoot the shit tax
00:22:15
thread, and that's what makes elon's whole like worldview
00:22:18
about like free speech. So frustrating.
00:22:20
I don't want to get into the whole argument around Free
00:22:23
Speech, but obviously for people who follow this issue closely,
00:22:27
like the type of people are worried about.
00:22:29
Like the Facebook advisory Council and shit.
00:22:32
Elon's ideas, always just felt so simplistic like he hasn't
00:22:36
thought it through and that ultimately.
00:22:38
And this is why I've been like fine with you on running Twitter
00:22:41
because it felt like, ultimately, if you really had to
00:22:43
face the problems of like his Free Speech views, he would end
00:22:47
up. Embracing a lot of the things
00:22:49
that like sort of the liberal technocratic class ends up
00:22:53
doing, but he just hasn't thought through it and there's
00:22:55
no evidence from these Twitter message.
00:22:58
I mean, from the message, And EMS that he has some like
00:23:02
sophisticated take on this that he hasn't expressed in public.
00:23:06
So if anything gets just fueled by pure ideology.
00:23:10
I mean you have people like Joe Lonsdale who I didn't realize.
00:23:13
He was that in messed with the GOP.
00:23:15
Oh yeah. Joe.
00:23:17
I mean, but it's just, you know, which has now position himself
00:23:22
as anti big Tech. And I think one of his messages
00:23:25
here is like, you know, we can take down these big Tech
00:23:27
bastards or something like that. I can find The actual things I
00:23:30
don't like. And you also see the one that
00:23:32
was it was the name was redacted but it talked about, you know,
00:23:36
reinstating the boss. Yay Trump that was interesting
00:23:39
who is that? And it suggested like putting a
00:23:42
Blake Masters type in in the management.
00:23:46
I know why was that one redacted?
00:23:48
That is sort of the most very curious sort of dark, dark
00:23:51
conservative influence sort of type stuff you know, Blake
00:23:55
Masters type AKA just like a teal loyalist.
00:23:59
Talk through the web, three subplot.
00:24:02
That's one of my that's my favorite, the by Nance versus
00:24:04
Sam, Bateman freeze sort of dynamic, or yes.
00:24:07
Well, and also that throughout this like, Elon is trying to,
00:24:11
like text with, you know, people who are like the actual players
00:24:14
in this. Like, I don't know if it was
00:24:15
Bret Taylor or if it was somebody else on Twitter's
00:24:18
board, but he's like trying to do business.
00:24:20
And like, meanwhile, his brother can build musk is just like
00:24:23
jumping in with like all these like blockchain ideas and like
00:24:27
pitching him on it and he's just like not now.
00:24:29
Man, I'm kind of busy. Yeah, it's investment freed
00:24:33
appears in this. He's the CEO of FTX.
00:24:37
It's not entirely clear, whether Yvonne knows who he is, he
00:24:41
doesn't at all. He's like first, so he's got
00:24:44
will mccaskill. Who's the effect of all tourism
00:24:47
guy? Who's like trying to broker an
00:24:50
intro between the two of them and elon's.
00:24:53
First Response is, does he have massive amounts of money so like
00:24:57
he doesn't even know how rich He is right, guys.
00:25:00
Well, Rich will says how rich he thinks Sam is, right?
00:25:04
What does he say? Like, 25 billion or something.
00:25:06
He's like something like 25. And then with like supportive
00:25:09
employees, they would have like together, like 30.
00:25:13
But part of what's amazing with that is that Bloomberg estimates
00:25:17
sandbank, when freeze Fortune at, like nine billion.
00:25:21
So I and I have long believed. The Sam is actually richer than
00:25:27
advertised so I well it depends on what.
00:25:29
Today, what time, you know, this was serious, crashes started
00:25:36
happening, he could be worth, you know, a lot less now.
00:25:40
But then, you know, they eventually do get introduced
00:25:45
because SBS apparently had long wanted to buy Twitter and, you
00:25:50
know, use some kind of blockchain censorship resistant
00:25:54
thing and like the guy who's following us, Yawns kind of like
00:26:00
half responding half knot. And then by the end Ilan has
00:26:04
decided that blockchain Twitter will not work because there's
00:26:08
not enough peers for it to be peer-to-peer.
00:26:11
So you would have to have like a few really big ones which
00:26:14
defeats the purpose of centralization, which is like,
00:26:17
okay, he looked into this and came away with like a pretty
00:26:20
reasonable take away from it and he's like, still getting
00:26:24
badgered like just meet this guy and he's like, okay fine, I'll
00:26:27
meet with Sam. As long as I don't have.
00:26:29
Have to have a laborious blockchain debate, which is
00:26:32
like, God, I love the most relatable things that like Elon
00:26:36
Musk, who never say, yes, only be like pop through and like,
00:26:39
you know, had like a dose of Welcome to our world Ilan.
00:26:42
We don't want that either. This is after he has suggested
00:26:45
like pay having to pay like half getting rid of spam and Bots by
00:26:49
making everyone pay. One Dogecoin per tweet or
00:26:52
something. Yeah, he's off the Dogecoin
00:26:56
train thing now. Anyway, so yeah, it's less of an
00:26:58
issue. This is just a random One, but I
00:27:00
love when David Sachs tweets to Elon Musk to tell them that he
00:27:04
retweeted his tweet. It is just like they are it's
00:27:09
just Cloud chasing ya know blessed had like to defend him
00:27:13
Dinesh D'Souza. You see my tears, bro?
00:27:15
You see my tweet? It's just is there just like you
00:27:22
in some ways like I just desperate for social engagement
00:27:27
though? The what?
00:27:27
It's not like everything. And I think we were Mark, John,
00:27:29
this is just the amount that like, even the most powerful
00:27:33
people you can imagine flow to Elon that Elon, that there is
00:27:37
like such a hierarchy among these people and everybody sort
00:27:41
of just wants to like suck up to Elon and like be around and
00:27:45
what, here's the one person who exists outside of that, which is
00:27:48
fascinating to me. I mean that's where like maybe
00:27:50
the actual power plays is the one person that I saw evil and
00:27:53
sucking up to. And all of these texts was to
00:27:55
Larry Ellison. Yeah.
00:27:58
Because you seen this Well put yeah because when the you know,
00:28:02
finally he puts forth his offer and they get past the point
00:28:05
where, you know, the poison pill shit and the Deal Board agrees
00:28:08
to the deal. You see Ilan, immediately going
00:28:10
to Larry and saying, I want you to be one of the people involved
00:28:14
in this and could think of anyone else I'd want more than
00:28:16
you, putting money into this. And he had Larry's is like,
00:28:19
yeah, cool. He's little areas like, yeah.
00:28:22
How much do you want a billion? Yeah.
00:28:23
She's that's his first offer as right.
00:28:25
Brilliant. What about you?
00:28:27
And he's like, sure anything for you.
00:28:29
Are you under simultaneously? Like oh we're like
00:28:31
oversubscribed and we'd have to make room but then he's also
00:28:34
upping the number that he wants Larry Ellison to put in.
00:28:38
It's like do you have enough if you're begging if you want to
00:28:42
billion instead of 1 billion a yeah I mean like I said he'd
00:28:44
rather have Larry Ellison's money than like you know tiro
00:28:47
pricer like you know Wellington or someone that has all these
00:28:51
you know like governance one who has a fiduciary obligation to
00:28:54
somebody. Yeah.
00:28:55
Yeah. I want the guy who's yeah.
00:28:57
They he basically he wants the guy who could like casually
00:28:59
Throw in an extra billion, just for fun.
00:29:01
Like another package on the bonfire.
00:29:04
I mean, Andreessen Horowitz, you know, on Marc Andreessen sort of
00:29:07
facilitating. This does have, you know,
00:29:10
limited partners. And they Andresen was like,
00:29:15
we're happy to invest, 250 million.
00:29:17
Like no diligence required. Be no strings attached.
00:29:20
Yeah, just we'll do it like, and I mean, Andresen knows Twitter.
00:29:26
So it's not crazy but just just the lightweight I mean, that's
00:29:30
that's hard to me. Wasn't like as shocking, is
00:29:32
that? It was like, obviously, they're
00:29:34
be seized their whole thing is that they invest in a person.
00:29:37
Is there's any one person that like that, that is the pattern
00:29:41
matching of Alzheimer mashing, concealed on like and then, on
00:29:45
top of that, Twitter's a public company.
00:29:46
So, like there was Intelligence, is there really to do?
00:29:50
It's like, it's almost always steps out there.
00:29:53
Yeah. Apparently Elon was still doing
00:29:55
diligence at his mom's apartment, when you texted
00:29:57
Schoenberger month, after The deals.
00:30:00
Do we do we want to move into the great bro debate or did it
00:30:05
were there more text that we need who was going to run
00:30:08
Twitter? Because in addition to all of
00:30:10
the discussions over money and like who we want to get to
00:30:13
participate in their GoFundMe, there was an interesting side
00:30:16
plot on different CEO candidates and so we have who was it?
00:30:21
That suggested Bill girly as the CEO, how I actually didn't know
00:30:26
who that was. It was somebody with like a I
00:30:30
didn't recognize that name. Well, Eric, you're the bill
00:30:32
girly Whisperer. I mean tell me about the
00:30:34
likelihood of Bill girly. He's never been a CEO before.
00:30:37
He's, he's a banker who went on to become a VC, like stock
00:30:42
market analyst, but yeah, but yeah, I find that very hard to
00:30:46
believe. I do find it.
00:30:47
Believable that our friend Emil, Michael, who we had on this
00:30:51
podcast, I think Steve jurvetson.
00:30:53
Put him up. Like it seemed almost Adam
00:30:56
meals, prompting, though. I'm sure a meal will text me as
00:30:58
soon as episodes. That's wrong.
00:31:00
But but yeah I mean I mean jurvetson sent and as a
00:31:03
follow-up to that he sent a LinkedIn in which elon's like
00:31:07
what do I do with this thing? I'm not on LinkedIn.
00:31:10
I really long us which I hope someone's made an Elon Musk
00:31:13
LinkedIn profile after this and then Steve jurvetson.
00:31:17
Also like Shield his own son, you know Target?
00:31:20
Yeah. Because like I'm going to be the
00:31:22
boss don't like don't send me bosses.
00:31:25
That's me. And then he's like only son to
00:31:27
people who can write good code and then Joe If it seems like
00:31:30
well, my son works at read it, right?
00:31:31
I have one more thing before you go, great.
00:31:34
Because the kantrowitz pointed this one out to, which I like I
00:31:37
saw that in there when I was scrolling through and didn't
00:31:39
really like dwell on the full absurdity of it.
00:31:42
But out of nowhere, benioff jumps in there and just goes,
00:31:46
and his pitch is like so elevator pitch, like Silicon
00:31:49
Valley, Twitter conversational OS, the Town Square for your
00:31:53
digital life. And that's the any lines just
00:31:57
like know. It's like Mark, this isn't like
00:32:01
Enterprise SAS. You don't need to reframe like,
00:32:04
Twitter, in somewhat, like your reframing is less under
00:32:07
comprehensible than like I understand with like Salesforce
00:32:11
you need to like have all these weird metaphors so people can
00:32:14
understand it. Do you think, do you think he
00:32:16
Workshop that was Bret Taylor? I mean, but this do CEO
00:32:23
somewhere in Salesforce Tower is a file like is it's a slide deck
00:32:27
of when Salesforce. Is considering buying Twitter
00:32:30
that they ended up falling that happened a couple years ago to?
00:32:33
So someone maybe he got that pitch from that file.
00:32:37
I think so. I think so.
00:32:38
I think he busted it out and it's like well if it was no good
00:32:39
for me in 2016 or whenever that was going to happen, maybe maybe
00:32:43
someone can make use of this, you know, I had like a whole
00:32:45
team of analysts like MacKenzie style people with Salesforce
00:32:48
putting it together. Does it make sense to you now?
00:32:50
I don't know. Maybe, maybe not.
00:32:52
But yeah, benioff does. The benioff thing you mentioned
00:32:54
Bret Taylor, he's the one, like, adults in the situation, he's
00:32:58
the only one who So one recognize that like he has a
00:33:01
fiduciary duty and also every single text at certain point is
00:33:05
going to show up in Discovery because a lawsuit is going to
00:33:08
happen. Like when the shit hits the fan
00:33:10
so he's the one who is like the least to be embarrassed about
00:33:13
because he's just doing his job, you're very Bret Taylor to me
00:33:17
but okay. So here's here's I guess how we
00:33:18
can wrap it all up I mean like we all cover investment, we've
00:33:22
all dealt with some of these characters at different points,
00:33:24
in our in our professional career.
00:33:27
I mean, what can you take away about the Nature of the, you
00:33:30
know, the elite and Silicon Valley, who it really affirms
00:33:34
the like small world nature of it, you know?
00:33:36
It's just like oh yeah, many of these characters are familiar to
00:33:39
me not that many surprising names.
00:33:41
I saw like you know Michael Grimes is in there pitching
00:33:44
sandbank when freed you know top Tech Banker Morgan Stanley.
00:33:47
It's just it's sort of like you know there are sort of the same
00:33:50
characters over and over again. I also do think like the power
00:33:54
of text message or you can just intrude in someone's brain is
00:33:57
like on display. Play here, you know.
00:34:00
It just like, just be the person like texting Ilan and he, I
00:34:03
don't know. You're all of a sudden, like,
00:34:05
sort of involved. It's very trumpian, right?
00:34:08
I mean, that was one of the reasons he was such a Kaos agent
00:34:11
as president, is because so many people had his phone projects,
00:34:14
like and he's people, right? They just act.
00:34:17
It's just like, okay, get on their mind and they'll tweet
00:34:19
something out about it and, you know, like all right, sir, Ilan
00:34:24
or that other? All the other people in this
00:34:28
very elite Eat fairly small circle.
00:34:31
Also do business like this all day.
00:34:34
Like, you know, is like Reid Hoffman or Mark, and Jason just
00:34:38
sitting there texting and like doing all their deals and
00:34:41
everything like that just like constantly.
00:34:43
I mean I mean I do think text or just like a really efficient way
00:34:47
to communicate in the medium that, you know, you do business
00:34:50
and definitely has a big impact on it.
00:34:52
But but no. I think most deals are like how
00:34:56
Twitter behave swear. It's like their lawyers and
00:34:58
their, yeah. Just like they're very worried
00:35:02
and they don't want to look like a fool.
00:35:03
It takes someone to, you know, you have to be the world's
00:35:05
richest man and take a certain pleasure and just like having
00:35:09
Bankers, run around and clean up your messes and lawyers.
00:35:13
So I don't think most people are doing.
00:35:14
There's a part of me that sort of like any and and I haven't
00:35:18
like gotten inside too many deals like like this that I've
00:35:21
reported on but any time I do there's a part of me that feels
00:35:25
like from the outside even if it looks like everything is going
00:35:29
Perfectly great on the inside, it's just freaking chaos and
00:35:33
like everything is moving quickly.
00:35:35
And people are like, I don't know, like I feel like there's
00:35:38
part of me that sort of feels like maybe this is like how
00:35:41
things always tomorrow. We just don't really get this
00:35:43
kind of glimpse into it, very often.
00:35:45
Yeah. And I think there's a tendency
00:35:47
by a lot of the second-tier people in Tech who are, you
00:35:50
know, as we saw in this play and these text messages are very
00:35:53
excited about the fact they're close to power.
00:35:55
They like to reverse engineer logic and reverse engineer
00:35:58
strategy and What we might say is like absolute chaos.
00:36:01
They say, oh actually there's a lot of strategy behind it.
00:36:03
These guys are thinking about a different way and you can see on
00:36:06
full display here. No, it's not.
00:36:07
This is absolute chaos. This is people whispering each
00:36:10
other's ears. They are fueled by grievances by
00:36:13
political agendas by their own venal characters.
00:36:16
And it's fine, that's how we all are like.
00:36:19
I'm not saying they're any different than you and I but
00:36:21
like understand that these are not the fucking Masters of the
00:36:24
Universe, right? If they are, they're fueled by
00:36:26
the same Petty, things that fuel all of us.
00:36:28
And they just Happen to have way more money and can fuck up the
00:36:31
world in more vast and dramatic ways that you were, I can.
00:36:34
Yeah, I don't think this is Insidious.
00:36:36
Like, I think it's amusing. I think it it's logical to me
00:36:40
that if you want to raise money and you know, bunch of rich
00:36:42
people, you just text the rich people, you know.
00:36:44
And they know your knock, you're less likely to screw them over
00:36:48
because you have a relationship like this, small world aspect of
00:36:51
Silicon Valley, actually, I think is part of what makes it
00:36:54
good and that if this were and sort of the move away from just
00:36:57
like, let's lawyer everything. Make it super sort of corporate
00:37:01
sounding. I don't like that.
00:37:03
So while it's like easier to make fun of this and it seems
00:37:06
ridiculous and sort of it's more, it's easier to Lampoon the
00:37:11
lack of sophistication when you don't even smoke grenade, right?
00:37:14
Versus if you have like, you know, some cravath lawyer or
00:37:18
sort of rewrite, what you're saying to clean it up, like
00:37:21
Aramis, say the lawyers and all this apparatus around, check
00:37:24
exist to clean up the mess and make it seem.
00:37:27
I mean, that's what comes through.
00:37:28
I mean, I've joked about Us before.
00:37:29
But like this whole episode is basically dumb Barbarians at the
00:37:32
gate, right? It's like even even more Petty,
00:37:35
even like, even more fueled by just people who have think out
00:37:38
ideas. But yes, the apparatus around
00:37:41
them, all the underlings and have to write the legal
00:37:44
framework to make this thing actually exists.
00:37:46
They're here to make it seem like it's part of a real system,
00:37:48
right? But everything else is just it's
00:37:50
just capriciousness. All the lawyers and bankers play
00:37:53
adult like they are their lawyers and bankers exists to
00:37:58
make it seem like there's acid. A world where everybody knows
00:38:00
what they're doing and they're like doing it the right way.
00:38:03
And meanwhile like the actual, like Executives and like all the
00:38:07
people in the mixer just like saying shit sort of off the cuff
00:38:11
and it's just like a mess, you know?
00:38:13
Yeah, yeah. Well the ones that like what you
00:38:16
guys are saying just made me think of because I'm like, okay
00:38:18
well, what is the actual, you know, human impact of this?
00:38:21
Ultimately, it's like, Well yeah, if you work at Twitter,
00:38:24
your life has probably sucked for the last year.
00:38:26
And like, at one point like gone, Caltech.
00:38:29
Oh my God, you're getting jerked around it.
00:38:31
As you know four hundred thousand dollars a year.
00:38:33
Anyway can yeah. Well, I was thinking at one
00:38:35
point, like, it just notable to me like calacanis is like if we
00:38:40
have mandatory two days in the week office at Twitter will
00:38:42
have, you know, immediate 20% headcount reduction in like, you
00:38:47
know, there's just like talking about this kind of stuff, but it
00:38:50
like that those conversations happening behind the scenes,
00:38:53
like, you know, mask off. And then the lawyers, like say
00:38:56
they did do that announce that, like, the way that the lawyers
00:38:58
and the eighth, Our and everyone would present.
00:39:00
It would be, you know, like this like very tearful HR Executives
00:39:03
being like, oh we're gonna have to say goodbye to like move our
00:39:08
tweeps today, but that's what everyone hates.
00:39:11
They think. That's part of what Elon is
00:39:12
reacting to, with the Prague back and forth where it's like,
00:39:15
you know, you're really distracting our company.
00:39:18
Like, you know, and it's just like, come on like what why are
00:39:21
you so soft like that's again to that?
00:39:24
We've been circling the Bro issue.
00:39:26
It's just like there is definitely you accurately
00:39:29
Capturing your story, you know, a fatigue with pretending that
00:39:34
there's something wrong with like aggression,
00:39:36
straightforwardness, like, in business culture, and I
00:39:40
definitely think Ilan. Here is sick of sort of the way
00:39:43
that. Yeah, sort of the simultaneous.
00:39:46
Like, corporate HR lawyer, every sort of PC way that this message
00:39:52
would get framed within Twitter instead of like yeah, like do
00:39:55
your fucking jobs, you're going to lose them, you know what I
00:39:57
mean? Yeah.
00:39:59
Are you he said earlier that you disagree with my piece to, I
00:40:02
remember we talked about it for 10
00:40:16
minutes. I have a story that came out
00:40:32
last week, that was basically about, like, kind of the return
00:40:35
to, Bro, culture, or at least the open Embrace of it in
00:40:40
Silicon Valley, and it's kind of like a little bit of a backlash,
00:40:43
to me to, that's been happening, more broadly in the culture, you
00:40:47
know, everywhere. But you know, for a while there
00:40:51
in Silicon Valley, the people of the top, we're at least
00:40:54
pretending or appearing to pretend to care about Out a lot
00:40:59
of the major issues that are that that Tech culture has a
00:41:02
problem with like the fact that, you know, that there's like
00:41:06
almost no diversity, very few women at the top that harassment
00:41:09
and discrimination are in League rampant, all that stuff.
00:41:12
You know, people, if they didn't actually care, they tried at
00:41:15
least appear to pretend to care. And that seems to have just like
00:41:20
over the last few years, people, you know, got tired of it or or
00:41:26
backlash has has sort of bubbled up.
00:41:28
Just in general, I think the last, you know, few months
00:41:31
you've seen like so many, so many things happen that sort of
00:41:35
show to me that the mass is they were ever on are now fully off
00:41:40
that. Like, no one really are not
00:41:42
knowing, but people are no longer like trying to act.
00:41:45
Like they even like really care about and you were and who are
00:41:48
some of the characters you use? As example as I mean, the one
00:41:52
is, you know, the the way that the Andresen investment in Adam
00:41:56
Newman's company, slow was Ernst.
00:41:59
It's what you know. It's one thing they to give this
00:42:01
guy like three and fifty million dollars or something like that
00:42:04
after, you know, completely destroying billions of dollars
00:42:08
in value at his last company and Miss managing it.
00:42:11
But I think to announce it in this way that it's like so
00:42:14
braised and like this guy like learned his lessons.
00:42:17
And, you know, it's the biggest single check with ever written.
00:42:20
Like it just seemed like is what your job you don't do.
00:42:23
It was just well, it was right after this whole like backlash
00:42:26
to Andresen being a NIMBY and It's a residential real estate
00:42:31
startup and so just felt like it was one of those.
00:42:32
Like it almost just felt like it was designed to like kind of
00:42:36
troll a little bit and I mean whether or not it was take I
00:42:39
wrote. Yeah, that was my you know
00:42:41
impression. And yeah.
00:42:42
So we agree on that and and then there's, you know, Mark
00:42:46
Zuckerberg is going on The Joe Rogan podcast and like talking
00:42:50
about how like watching TV is beta and and he's like super
00:42:54
into like he only cares about UFC and he's super into MMA and
00:42:57
he's just like kind of had this like Like, alpha male makeover,
00:43:01
Max chaff can rotate like a great piece on it, that sort of
00:43:04
inspired me to include that in my story.
00:43:08
And then he's also, you know, being really aggressive with his
00:43:10
workers like, you know, if you're coasting you're out,
00:43:13
maybe you should leave, he's done, coddling them and then
00:43:17
there's let's see, what are some that will.
00:43:20
Then there's just like, you know, he Lon, but there's also
00:43:24
lots of littler examples that are kind of, not quite bubbling
00:43:26
up into the mainstream, like, you're on spouse.
00:43:28
Sure. Pastor of our servants back
00:43:31
launch house which is the startup that's to Makkah Hacker
00:43:33
House in l.a., that's backed by Andreessen.
00:43:36
That there was a story in Vox that came out about like all
00:43:38
these really horrible like sexual assault and terrible.
00:43:41
Things that happened there and they're trying to come to cover
00:43:44
it up, or handle it really badly and, you know, it's like pretty
00:43:47
scandalous and like, no one really weighed in on it and
00:43:50
again, until there's only one this game passed around sort of
00:43:54
in the text, but I definitely think it's resonating, but I
00:43:56
agree with your position, you know.
00:43:58
It wasn't like people were calling out injuries and like
00:44:01
publicly, all right, you know, like after wants me to is
00:44:03
starting to happen and like there was some big, big stories
00:44:06
in Silicon Valley, like don't remember how like Reid Hoffman
00:44:09
had this, like hashtag. And there was a pledge and there
00:44:12
was, like, all this stuff like, you know, people were like, we
00:44:14
are angry and we're going to try to make a change.
00:44:16
And this was just like, oh well. Yep, not surprising.
00:44:20
Everyone saw that coming. Well, I mean, so I certainly
00:44:24
agree with your assessment of the trend when I was a coach,
00:44:29
You know, Scott Galloway, Kara, Swisher's co-host, son pivot,
00:44:35
the sort of marketing business professor, a self promoter
00:44:38
extraordinaire. I mean his whole shtick is sort
00:44:42
of we need like good liberal role models for men and he was
00:44:48
sort of I think in the New York Times story you guys did a big
00:44:52
profile of him you sort of there's sort of a you know
00:44:56
Jordan Pederson comparison for The left.
00:44:59
So I think there is I think he represents the most like
00:45:03
palatable repackaged version of this for Democrats of like okay
00:45:08
how do we sort of lean in again to masculinity while sort of
00:45:14
still, you know, holding to the values of like me too.
00:45:17
So I guess I think that's like one data point in this like
00:45:21
return to like maleness and I agree I think like as part of
00:45:26
okay, we have these male dominated Tech cultures at our
00:45:30
companies. So we need to create like a more
00:45:34
inclusive environment for women. We're going to be less like we
00:45:38
don't want like toe stepping or Bravo, you know, like some of
00:45:40
the aggressive combative like warlike metaphor imagery.
00:45:45
And so like people moved away from that to be more inclusive
00:45:48
of women at their companies. Yeah, and I definitely agree
00:45:51
there's like a fatiguing of it just because, like, you know,
00:45:54
the men who make up the majority these companies I think are just
00:45:57
sort of want to go. Go back to being like sort of
00:46:00
naturalistic and just saying like the words and values are
00:46:03
like come naturally to them and that they're sort of like a
00:46:06
there's just sort of like the amount you can perform the way
00:46:08
that maybe Society should work versus the natural thing you
00:46:11
would say. I think there's a there's a
00:46:13
shift back to it so I don't think it's necessarily that
00:46:16
people have a problem with toe stepping or like an aggressive
00:46:20
culture. It's like people don't want to
00:46:21
be harassed or discriminated against and it's just
00:46:24
unfortunate that those to tend to go hand in hand a lot.
00:46:27
I mean I we were It was like a ton of like you know there were
00:46:31
a lot of lawsuits and stuff over like discrimination and and
00:46:35
harassment like it just happens to go hand-in-hand some house.
00:46:38
Well I think a loose corporate environment, you know.
00:46:41
Yeah. There was a lot of drinking and
00:46:43
stuff but I don't it wasn't like the Uber story where it was
00:46:46
like, I didn't think that gender discrimination was a huge part
00:46:50
of sort of the we work headlines.
00:46:52
As I consume to, I wonder what's going on here to maybe try to
00:46:57
connect like Aaron story. It's like the Otter Trend, just
00:46:59
economically is, I feel like there's also just been like a
00:47:02
lack of mainstream and everything is just divided up
00:47:05
among different size niches. And you know, like the power of
00:47:09
the meats you movement, was that there was this sort of accepted
00:47:12
agreement that you can't act in this way.
00:47:15
But this is incredibly harmful to obviously the women but also
00:47:19
generally the culture, more broadly.
00:47:21
And as time has moved on and maybe we got sort of
00:47:23
disaggregated because of the pandemic and you know, just
00:47:26
having less connection with each other.
00:47:28
A lot of But he's starting to think like what do I care that
00:47:31
much about what is considered mainstream, let me just do what
00:47:34
I want to do is build a company the way I want to build.
00:47:36
If I get some backlash for it, probably.
00:47:38
Okay in Armstrong at coinbase, you know.
00:47:39
Yes. Let me just do things the way
00:47:41
that feels comfortable natural. To me.
00:47:43
You know people will self select out.
00:47:45
Right? And you know and then things
00:47:48
will just sort of be that way and I could just be happy with
00:47:51
the world that I've created now doesn't that doesn't kind of
00:47:54
mirror with the idea of scale and at some point you need to
00:47:56
like build something to recruit enough people.
00:47:58
That you can build a company of size to match your business
00:48:01
Ambitions that you have. But I think people also, you
00:48:04
know, hand in hand with that or like cancellation is.
00:48:07
The concept is maybe sort of dying away.
00:48:09
You're not really going to be able to be, you're not going to
00:48:11
be blacklisted in a way that just let you run your business
00:48:13
anymore if you have certain values.
00:48:15
So it doesn't sound like it's a fully thought through Radiology.
00:48:18
But my guess is like they feel empowered somewhat because they
00:48:22
think the backers that they could endure is actually pretty
00:48:25
survivable. So why don't just do the stuff
00:48:27
that you feel natural about? You know, been so the Nana yeah,
00:48:31
and I don't think that like I think there are there is like a
00:48:34
spectrum. The whole idea of cancellation
00:48:36
is like was never very like one-size-fits-all.
00:48:40
Anyway, there's such a spectrum of behaviors.
00:48:42
It's like, you know, I don't necessarily have a problem with
00:48:46
Adam Newman being able to raise more money.
00:48:48
It's just like also worth pointing out at the same time
00:48:51
that like he's given a second chance, many male, Founders that
00:48:56
fuck up big-time are given a second chance and And still were
00:48:59
in this position where like you know, women and underrepresented
00:49:04
minorities. Like don't really have to like
00:49:06
fight for scraps to get a first chance and like it's worth
00:49:08
making that point when that when I happens not like sodium trying
00:49:12
to police that well I think I'm one of the piece, the the
00:49:17
complications of this I think in your story that you get to is
00:49:20
like, you know, like the PayPal Mafia is like a boys club.
00:49:24
I mean, it's like all man and that's so essential to Silicon
00:49:28
Valley and Right into this Twitter lawsuit, I mean, like,
00:49:31
yeah, I mean, David Sachs is in the PayPal Mafia.
00:49:35
You know, I read Hoffman is one of the people texting Elon, like
00:49:40
I think Sequoia ends up supporting Elon.
00:49:43
And obviously, that's a firm that's run by Rudolf, who is
00:49:47
part of the PayPal Mafia. So PayPal Mafia is directly
00:49:50
relevant to this and I think this is sort of part of where it
00:49:53
fits together like a theme of my newsletter and I reality is that
00:49:58
like Like, yeah, Silicon Valley is run by like a small group of
00:50:01
people, you know, who all know each other and understanding the
00:50:04
interpersonal dynamics of it and they're like French, is there a
00:50:08
single woman on any of these texts that wasn't like an
00:50:10
assistant. I mean, nine ordered the one,
00:50:13
the one, Twitter board member. I think then wasn't that, that
00:50:17
WWE lady she was subpoenaed but I don't see her on any of these
00:50:20
texts lately. You're here I could be wrong,
00:50:23
but yeah, it's very male. That's a good.
00:50:24
Yeah, I mean I recognize on some level but worth underlining.
00:50:28
Like new, it is sort of his prison here.
00:50:31
Can I ask you, Aaron? I mean, what responses have you
00:50:34
gotten since the piece came out? I mean, I know like a lot of
00:50:36
people that you're writing about, here are very anti-media,
00:50:39
very Anti, New York Times, specifically, maybe even anti
00:50:42
you like, what, what, what, what have you heard since then, like
00:50:48
a bottle or any? Wait, hold on, I'm pulling it
00:50:50
up. Let me see if he still has it.
00:50:53
So and reason had changed his Twitter bio to be a quote from
00:50:57
my story and And his his background is currently the
00:51:01
picture from the Stuart. Well, you know?
00:51:05
Yeah. It's Twitter.
00:51:05
Bio is referencing one of my stories, the other day.
00:51:07
That's funny. I've been deployed display.
00:51:10
You'll get our, we all need to take her turn there, I love,
00:51:12
always like stop tweeting you just open, he just updates his
00:51:16
status like an old sort of Facebook but I am.
00:51:21
And I know there were some people that, you know, were
00:51:24
messaging me like oh come on and like, nitpicking different
00:51:27
points that they Agreed with, or me, you know, the examples that
00:51:32
I chose, but like the most part it was like a ton of like, it
00:51:38
was, like, women coming out of the woodwork, people who haven't
00:51:40
talked to you for years. Like randomly messaging me like,
00:51:44
oh my God, thank you for writing this.
00:51:45
Like I feel this in my bones, like I'm so glad that like,
00:51:48
people are finally talking about it because like I am
00:51:51
encountering it constantly, I was really surprised by that
00:51:54
actually. So like it's definitely a
00:51:57
feeling that a lot of Women have very yeah.
00:52:00
Well we need well, here's the solution.
00:52:02
I'm going to get Mackenzie. Scott needs to stop giving away
00:52:06
all this money and wield it as leverage over all these people,
00:52:10
you know, thirsty for rich people to, you know, give them
00:52:13
their insane project. I mean, it is sort of like, you
00:52:16
know, it's hard obviously, who has the money is deeply sexist.
00:52:21
But then, once they have the money, and we live in this sort
00:52:23
of capitalist world where people are orienting themselves around
00:52:26
the money, it becomes even harder.
00:52:29
To unwind. Unwind that control, I guess I'm
00:52:33
having my Awakening to capitalism sexism right now.
00:52:36
I'm like, oh yeah, it's not just the money though.
00:52:40
It's also the power, they go. It's I mean, that all the money,
00:52:43
you know, often means Tower but there's, there's also an
00:52:46
intangible like, I mean, why else do all the billionaires,
00:52:49
tweet so much. If the money was fine, they
00:52:51
wouldn't money was enough. They wouldn't write, you know,
00:52:55
desperate for the inflow because they all feel empty inside.
00:52:57
This is where we have to really feel Feel bad for them.
00:52:59
You know they they have everything and it is not enough
00:53:02
feel bad for their therapists, try to sort out these individual
00:53:06
issues. Now it's a fascinating topic are
00:53:09
and I hope you have a follow-up on it with the people who
00:53:12
reached out with, like they're like, you have what should the
00:53:14
watch for the follow-up be though?
00:53:16
I don't, I don't even know. I mean I feel like honestly if
00:53:19
this if these texts had been out when I was writing the story, I
00:53:22
could have just done it all based on that.
00:53:24
It would have been a lot easier to write.
00:53:26
I don't know. I mean It's, you know, we're
00:53:31
entering a period where funding is not going to be as easy,
00:53:33
right? It's going to be a little bit
00:53:34
harder for companies to raise and it'll be interesting to see
00:53:38
the commitments that a lot of VCS and other firms that made
00:53:42
during you know the rich times to you know put more money
00:53:46
towards companies founded by underrepresented minorities or
00:53:49
women and if they're going to continue that and it's time for
00:53:51
their funds. Maybe aren't as big or they feel
00:53:53
more pressure to do it. I mean, theoretically, it could
00:53:55
be time for a total reset and they could dramatically change.
00:53:58
How they do it but you know it's like your instincts kick in when
00:54:02
you feel cornered and I wonder how much they're going to, you
00:54:04
know? As they start to feel corner,
00:54:06
just go back to the kind of lazy pattern-matching that existed in
00:54:09
the past that created an environment that you ended up
00:54:12
writing about here. Yeah, that's what a lot of I
00:54:14
heard that from from a number of people being like, well, d&i is
00:54:18
the first thing to get cut and a downturn, you know, people
00:54:21
suddenly see it as like a nice to have.
00:54:23
So just connecting the two little bit though.
00:54:26
Sure. I think part of the frustration.
00:54:28
Is not just with bro, culture, or aggressive Tech execs or
00:54:32
whatever. It's like how childish it is,
00:54:35
right, like how defiant it has become, you know.
00:54:37
It's like it's not just like we want to be aggressive because
00:54:40
that's how our company wins. It's like we want to be in your
00:54:43
face about it and like make you feel bad about it, you know,
00:54:46
like we're like doing it to troll you.
00:54:48
It's all swollen, it's all for you.
00:54:50
It's all. It's all the same mentality that
00:54:52
created this company. That Jack himself is like, I
00:54:55
think it's been bad for the world it right Twitter.
00:54:58
Sort of style thinking in these short.
00:55:02
Blips, you know, I do hope with like newsletters not to be a
00:55:07
utopian about it, but we kind of sort of longer form debates and
00:55:11
I do think the quality of our thinking is made worse by
00:55:15
Twitter and sort of 4chan and sort of The trollee Message
00:55:19
Board culture. It sounds like Elon has a plan.
00:55:22
So I look forward to that and sounds like it's all going to be
00:55:26
worked out. What are we gonna name the
00:55:28
podcast? Was the best, my grenade, my
00:55:31
ground, a my, or whatever. The if you guys want to have
00:55:35
Jason actually, come on the podcast.
00:55:37
You should probably not Jason. I was on a dish it out.
00:55:40
If you can't take, I'm not gonna, I would feel confident of
00:55:45
saying Jason. Love this, he wants to be the
00:55:49
central figure, like, even if it's sort of a little, is
00:55:52
exactly, it's being a shit on every day on his own podcast.
00:55:55
Every week, he's getting shit on his own podcast.
00:55:58
Like Jason, a little brother that happens also be worth tens
00:56:02
of millions of dollars that has had too much sugar that everyone
00:56:04
sort of tolerates, but enjoys having around and this is as
00:56:09
clear a depiction of that as anything.
00:56:11
I bet he loved every fucking second of it.
00:56:13
See, on the podcast days. All right.
00:56:16
Thanks Erin. Always always our regular her
00:56:19
loyal guests. We appreciate it.
00:56:21
I would I would jump at A Grand Day for you.
00:56:24
Yeah. Yeah.
00:56:26
That's all right. True friend.
00:56:27
Yeah. Cool.
00:56:31
Goodbye, goodbye.
00:56:42
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye, goodbye.
00:56:45
Goodbye.