Suddenly, Silicon Valley is worried about its Russian ties.
I’m getting messages from sources about potential Russian-connected venture capital firms and software companies with inordinate numbers of Russian customers.
Companies like Netflix, Disney, Samsung, and TikTok are cutting at least some of their services in Russia. Meanwhile, Russia is restricting access to Facebook.
There were echoes of this moment, in 2018, when Silicon Valley was forced to reckon with its addiction to Saudi Arabian oil money after the brutal murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi. Investors started to wonder if they should feel guilty about the transgressions of their limited partners.
But then the spotlight faded and the business world moved on.
This time seems different. Most importantly, the U.S. government is expressly putting pressure on wealthy Russian elites. The ethical questions are taking a back seat to the foreign policy objectives of much of the Western world. So even in cases where people can justifiably separate the individual from the country, there’s intense pressure to hurt the Russian government by cracking down on individuals and institutions tied to Russia.
There’s perhaps no more prominent Russian-born investor than Yuri Milner.
Puck reporter Teddy Schleifer asked this month:
“What is Yuri Milner thinking? That’s the question I posed last week to Milner’s spokesman, after Russia launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine, and then again on Monday, after Western governments responded with crippling sanctions. Milner, after all, is easily among Silicon Valley’s most prominent Russians, having made billions of dollars as the force behind DST Global, the venture firm that placed historic bets on Facebook and Twitter, among other Bay Area landmarks. But it was Milner’s embattled friends that put him on my mind: The Russian provenance of DST’s early capital was supplied in large part by Alisher Usmanov, a Russian oligarch who made his fortune in metal and mining before teaming up with Milner in 2008.”
In the latest episode of Dead Cat, Tom Dotan, Katie Benner, and I talked to Schleifer about Milner’s public silence on the Russian invasion of Ukraine. We discussed the abrupt transition from a globally interconnected financial system to one that is suddenly looking to root out Russian money. (A DST spokesperson told Schleifer that Milner hasn’t taken money from Russian limited partners since 2012.)
We also talked to Schleifer about his list of American oligarchs. He ranked Reid Hoffman and Eric Schmidt as the most important political donors of the moment on the left, and Peter Thiel and Larry Ellison as number one and number two on the right.
Cheekily, Schleifer gave Chamath Palihapitiya the number four spot — on the right.
We also delved into philanthropy. Schleifer told us about one of his favorite donors — crypto billionaire Sam Bankman-Fried — and floated the possibility that donor MacKenzie Scott’s rapid-fire giveaway project ends in disaster.
Give it a listen.
Get full access to Newcomer at www.newcomer.co/subscribe
00:00:06
Welcome salad. Hey, it's Eric newcomer here
00:00:15
with dead cat. We've got Tom and Katie, and our
00:00:18
friend, Teddy schleifer, who we got to know back when he was at
00:00:24
recode. And now he's at puc, the
00:00:27
dominant player on the bill. Millionaire beat beat of his own
00:00:32
invention. And so he's also a regular
00:00:38
listener of this podcast. I believe that he actually won a
00:00:42
contest that we run weekly for our listeners.
00:00:44
If you bother us enough times, we'll let you be on the show.
00:00:47
Look, people people like, Eric people like Karen Griffith.
00:00:50
We're getting on the show. Wow, maybe five something big
00:01:00
Weakness here. He wanted to be on the show so I
00:01:03
feel like we wanted you to test. This is not really how we treat
00:01:07
people guys, that's not really it.
00:01:11
Folk night coming in like Mom here.
00:01:16
No, we love teddy. He's he's been very aggressively
00:01:19
pursuing in the way that he pursued us for not giving him
00:01:22
the credit that he deserves. He's also pursued billionaires
00:01:26
and their they're growing power. And I feel like one of the Great
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Moments we've had on this show was when we had been Smith on a
00:01:33
couple months back and he basically described this
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generation of people, I guess Austin and the older ones as
00:01:41
people who are like constantly fighting for attention in the
00:01:43
court of billionaires and I think it's one of the truest
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things I've heard about the kind of the state of this country and
00:01:51
media and power these days and so who better to explain the
00:01:55
court of billionaires, and the person who spends all his days,
00:01:58
pestering them and chronic In their their foibles, you know,
00:02:02
understanding the way deep, the cooties corpse work is you know
00:02:06
not to get onto high horse here but like is a public service for
00:02:09
sure but it's also just issue and fun and like that's a that's
00:02:12
okay too. So one of the things that you're
00:02:14
beat has sort of touched on in current events is the idea of
00:02:18
oligarchs, which is so fascinating to me.
00:02:20
I think there was a moment a few years ago when thanks to was at
00:02:24
the paradise papers. It was finally confirmed that
00:02:28
Yuri Milner whose fields. So, much of Silicon Valley did
00:02:31
have Kremlin ties via sort of his largest financial backer,
00:02:35
and work that he'd done. And at the time, that that story
00:02:38
came out, it was it kind of like made a small flare in the sky
00:02:43
and then just fizzled out, pretty quickly.
00:02:46
How do people in Silicon Valley thinking about folks, like Yuri
00:02:49
today and whether or not, it's even possible to impose any kind
00:02:54
of like economic sanctions on people, but those sorts of ties
00:02:57
to Putin who have embedded themselves.
00:03:00
Only in Silicon Valley, but kind of threw out wherever you find
00:03:03
wealth in the United States. I have.
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Do you think, do you think that was that small storage time?
00:03:09
I got really that broke through. I think it's difficult when it
00:03:12
broke through but it what it didn't do is change.
00:03:15
I think the way people regarded kleptocrats and their money in
00:03:19
the valley it's like well people only talk about this issue when
00:03:22
there's an issue in the new try like everyone's like you know
00:03:25
when the the paradise papers came out or we can show you is
00:03:28
killed people. Oh, suddenly care about it.
00:03:31
Then, like when's the last conversation that any of us have
00:03:34
had about like foreign money in like 2019 or 2020?
00:03:38
Or the first up in 2021. I guess I do not believe the
00:03:41
bullshit that this is an issue that actually will change
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anything about society. And that's not just me being a
00:03:47
cynic. Like look I mean if if the
00:03:50
reaction was so intense around khashoggi, there would have
00:03:54
been, you know, a major Reckoning about Saudi money in
00:03:57
the valley which I don't think really happened.
00:04:00
In step. Like, what what's the think that
00:04:02
any other Foreigner crisis will fare any differently?
00:04:05
I guess the word, the word Reckoning is kind of broad,
00:04:08
right? I mean, just thinking back to
00:04:09
khashoggi there, definitely was for a period as I remember.
00:04:12
I didn't cover, you know, Finance the way that you and
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Eric and maybe katydid as closely.
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But I know like, for example, Endeavor, which is this giant
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talent agency media company in Hollywood, they were in the
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process of raising a huge amount of money that was going to be
00:04:26
coming from, you know, the Saudi royal family that they pulled
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out of Of now, it's complicated. So, what actually happened
00:04:32
there, but their explanation at least was that, you know, it was
00:04:35
beyond the pale. What their involvement was with
00:04:37
khashoggi. He's killing.
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And they actually did pull out. So, at least for a period of
00:04:40
time, it seemed like people were trying to distance themselves
00:04:43
from, you know, the worst of their financial backers.
00:04:46
I guess I'm thinking more long-term.
00:04:48
Like I mean, like I mean like what think about the Saudi
00:04:50
conference that they host? Like, you know what everyone
00:04:53
canceled that year, that year because of conflicts of
00:04:59
scheduling For any other meat, a very it's a boxer in response to
00:05:04
the invasion of Ukraine was a lot of scrutiny on your team
00:05:07
owner and his firm DST. And DST is said that if you look
00:05:11
at the total amount of money raised by DST over the last
00:05:15
whatever 15 years or. So only 3% of the money comes
00:05:19
from Russia and you could argue could see you could see that at
00:05:23
third offense, basically saying we're not a you know, Kremlin
00:05:26
run firm so it's big but you can also look at that data and that
00:05:29
same Fact. And say like it only 3% of the
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money goes to Russia, doesn't to make it sort of easy to sneak
00:05:34
out, right? Like, if it's resume Lee, he's
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got to be more entrenched in the Russian system than that though.
00:05:40
Just because I mean, I mean his, yeah, his life is intertwine.
00:05:45
I would I would assume you look. So so it's the other part of
00:05:50
this and then I'm Karen. Just what you guys think.
00:05:53
So in response to the time story 2017, that Katie was mentioning
00:05:57
like urea was sort of alleging Not like racism but I got
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xenophobia or you know, the idea that like hey why can't I just
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be a got, you know, a VC with foreign LPS before I trust sort
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of ridiculous. Why not proactively disclose, if
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it's not some big Scandal, he could have been much.
00:06:17
I think we all agree that lb transparency would be great.
00:06:20
Like I do think the lack of disclosure creates some of the
00:06:24
problems here because it signals that you have something to hide
00:06:27
on sure. But I've got so the time story
00:06:29
that came I'm out in 2017 was all about.
00:06:32
He had to give his disclosing. This like I said of speak
00:06:34
because he was under an Eco under attack, right?
00:06:38
I mean his point is he was just closing.
00:06:57
There should be much more pressure on them.
00:06:59
Do you guys? The idea that like just because
00:07:02
someone is from Rush is like a Russian Elite businessman that
00:07:07
they can be independent of the Kremlin like can usually.
00:07:10
Oh, I'm just a Russian like there's a difference between
00:07:12
being an investor who is Russian and being like a Russian
00:07:15
government, all active investor. Yeah, I don't know, I mean, I'm
00:07:18
not an expert on the oligarchy, but he came in Israeli citizen
00:07:21
right. Interesting because the entire,
00:07:23
but the entire rationale for the Crackdown on oligarchs is if you
00:07:28
if you impose enough Financial pain on the people who have a
00:07:32
symbiotic relationship with Putin in Moscow that they are
00:07:36
better, positioned to convince Putin to change course then.
00:07:41
Literally anyone else that is that is the rationale for doing
00:07:44
this. And so, yes, that.
00:07:48
So what we're saying is that, that rationale doesn't really
00:07:50
work if people like Yuri Milner are unwilling to speak to his
00:07:56
backers and the other wealthy oligarchs with whom he does
00:07:59
business. In order to apply pressure on
00:08:01
Putin sound, right. Right.
00:08:04
I mean, I guess that's different than I guess Katie like a core
00:08:07
kind of assumption of that, is that Russian economic pressure
00:08:12
and political Pressure Works differently than a wouldn't say
00:08:14
like, Germany, right? We're like Angela, Merkel might
00:08:17
set her now, or any foreign leader might say, like, I'm not
00:08:22
like, my constituency is not the other Business Leaders.
00:08:24
Like in Russia, your efficiency is literally the business
00:08:28
people. That's it.
00:08:28
That's it. Yeah.
00:08:29
There is almost, is almost like a voter in this election.
00:08:33
Yeah. They're only like eight voters.
00:08:35
They're very wealthy and they're the people who have had this
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sort of symbiotic mutually reinforcing relationship with
00:08:43
with the Kremlin, right where they were given control over
00:08:47
Banks over, large oil companies, in order to mass extreme
00:08:51
fortunes. But they were also given an
00:08:52
ability to work with and live in the west and enjoy parts of the
00:08:57
West that nobody else in Russia could write.
00:08:59
I mean Seems like anytime the realities of these regimes you
00:09:02
know are exposed and westerners or Americans really have to
00:09:06
confront the source of the wealth that they have been also
00:09:10
enjoying it ends up, requiring some sort of a reckoning on the
00:09:13
part of these large businesses. I mean that was certainly the
00:09:16
case with the Saudis right. You can you know be hosted and
00:09:19
feted by MBS and the entire Saudi royal family and then you
00:09:23
start to recognize I mean you can talk about khashoggi.
00:09:26
But also you know what they've been doing in Yemen, over the
00:09:29
last couple of Of years, which doesn't get new no discussed
00:09:31
that much. But is horrifying in as much as
00:09:35
everything that's going on in Ukraine is you know you have
00:09:37
these points where you can have a reckoning and it happens at
00:09:41
the margins but there's never like a full accounting for it.
00:09:44
I mean look we've all kind of become Russian experts over the
00:09:46
last couple of weeks here so I don't want to speak like too
00:09:49
much out of my depth of knowledge but my sense of like
00:09:52
the Russian oligarchs over the last decades, a few decades is
00:09:56
that we've always kind of been amused by them.
00:09:58
You know, they own Ball clubs in the UK, you know, they have
00:10:02
these super Yachts, they are huge buyers of high-end fashion
00:10:07
and that's kind of as far as the think the general populace likes
00:10:10
to think about it. You know, you don't really think
00:10:11
about like the source of that wealth, the source of that power
00:10:14
and you know we've come to a point now where maybe there is
00:10:17
some analysis on someone like a URI where his wealth comes from
00:10:22
the fact that that some of that wealth has helped fuel a huge
00:10:25
amount of the success in Silicon Valley.
00:10:28
But how long is it going to go? On for like, how long are we
00:10:31
going to actually feel the need to hold him to account and have
00:10:34
him forced to, you know, to pressure Putin.
00:10:37
I have no clue. Yeah, I guess this would be
00:10:39
easier call if like, okay, so the Uris kind of original
00:10:43
business partners guy, Allah, surely movement of who were now
00:10:46
all experts on because his, he's the guy with the Yahoo received
00:10:50
yesterday. So I like, I like to say.
00:10:53
Yeah, super yacht. That's too big.
00:10:56
But you actually clear, like, Yuri Milner is not an oligarch
00:10:58
like his, I don't think. We like he is an oligarch, he is
00:11:02
a, an oligarch Ally at our something like that or you know
00:11:07
what one step removed your. So like I feel like work,
00:11:10
there's like he's backed by the powers that be in Russia but
00:11:14
only key necessarily really is a power.
00:11:16
That b is a power of. It should be easier call for
00:11:20
Silicon Valley, it was like alisher usmanov is a, you know,
00:11:23
DC is investor in, you know, stripe.
00:11:27
And then they'll be like an easier called Here there's a I
00:11:31
think the reason It's Tricky, there's a little bit of distance
00:11:33
between URI and the Kremlin and like, you know, obviously people
00:11:37
can in good faith disagree about whether or not at that distance
00:11:40
is still, whether or not. He was, like, being used as a
00:11:43
front or whether he was just somebody who likes his friend
00:11:46
and wanted to take his money and invite reckon.
00:11:48
Because this point is like, you know, this sort of guilt by
00:11:51
association like just because I'm a rich guy from Russia
00:11:53
doesn't mean that I am like you know Putin's buddy here that's
00:11:57
for sure. That's precisely what makes this
00:11:59
tough I think more broadly also speaks to this idea that
00:12:02
billionaires and Teddy, if this is wrong, tell me I'm totally
00:12:04
wrong. But that billionaires are kind
00:12:06
of not a part of whatever country it is, that they are
00:12:10
floating above taking Russia out, obviously, because of their
00:12:12
unique relationship with the government that allows them to
00:12:15
get that wealthy. But when you're looking at ultra
00:12:18
wealthy people, whether in the United States or whether and
00:12:20
Europe in South America, it's kind of like they are their own
00:12:25
club. And even as geopolitical events
00:12:28
rage around And that they would have be able to bring influence
00:12:33
to bear on basically because of their money and because of their
00:12:35
status that they declined to do. So, I mean, like, pardon that
00:12:40
is, it's obviously a stronger argument for the Russians.
00:12:43
Like, I've talked with some people over the last couple of
00:12:46
days, you know, on the left who have been like, well, it's like
00:12:50
Russia really that different in the United States like isn't as
00:12:52
in America really an oligarchy where, you know, Elon Musk is,
00:12:56
is no different than Allah sure she can be catered to your to
00:12:59
your question. Yeah, look, I mean there there
00:13:01
is an element of, you know, Elon musk's life or Jeff Bezos his
00:13:06
life at where your ignorance life that is more in common
00:13:10
with, you know, alisher huisman. I was life and it is with our
00:13:13
lives, even though, we're all Americans, right?
00:13:14
I mean these are forests. Well, whether whether it's, you
00:13:18
know, the they are what we would call this look, I mean, there's
00:13:26
obviously doesn't take Bernie Sanders.
00:13:29
To say there's two sets of different rule, two sets of
00:13:31
rules for people, depending on your amount of wealth.
00:13:35
And some people can have access to heads of state and way that
00:13:38
we cannot. And let the there's, there's a
00:13:41
reason that I named what would, what I'm doing a puck.
00:13:45
The stratosphere it's because like, there is destroy a
00:13:48
rarefied air that wealthy people travel in that is inaccessible
00:13:53
to the rest of us. I just want to outline a point
00:13:57
like go for you. Take this outing.
00:13:59
Issue. Right?
00:14:00
So the Saudis poor bunch of money into Uber, and we work by
00:14:06
via SoftBank and their own direct Investments, right?
00:14:10
Like, on the one hand people we used to love to joke.
00:14:13
They like Saudis were burning a bunch of money.
00:14:16
So Americans could take cheap car rides and drivers would get
00:14:20
a bunch of money. And, you know, people could
00:14:23
stay. And we were like those things
00:14:25
were all subsidized by Americans subsidized for Americans by the
00:14:29
Saudis. He's so when it was the poor
00:14:31
investment, it's sort of like, okay, great, they're like
00:14:34
throwing their money away, the wrong way.
00:14:36
Obviously, some of these funds are great.
00:14:38
And on the flip side, then American funds are giving them a
00:14:41
big return and then they make a bunch of money.
00:14:45
I guess. I'm saying that to some degree.
00:14:47
I mean, it's the global interconnectedness of the market
00:14:51
and they, if they're giving the money to American investors to
00:14:54
deploy often in ways that it is good for American consumers.
00:14:58
There's a fair Sort of conflict on whether it's better to take
00:15:02
their money and use it for what we want.
00:15:05
And to not not have the money at all given, how much money there
00:15:09
is sort of in the world right now that wants to go into
00:15:11
Silicon Valley. Do you think that if the, you
00:15:14
know, to the small percentage of money that makes up, you know,
00:15:18
these see the VC World in total. If the Russian money were taken
00:15:22
out, what it crushed nature for a job where they not only, are
00:15:24
they not operate, would they not be able to fight other LP's to
00:15:27
fill the Gap? I'm just not really sure why.
00:15:29
Why pre Global crisis status quo?
00:15:32
Like it makes more sense. You know, why Saudi money
00:15:36
Russian money? There is sort of a he can't sort
00:15:39
of criticize Russia, you know. But he's taking the money but
00:15:43
he's investing things we like and there are these sort of like
00:15:46
okay something's he's not going to comment on certainly, I
00:15:49
agree. Now that Russia has done
00:15:51
something terrible Beyond The Pale where we're actively trying
00:15:54
to get Putin to change would be the time for him to like totally
00:15:59
Zone rush. I mean, this is what I mean
00:16:01
Teddy and your column you basically.
00:16:03
Or I don't know if you call them columns, whatever you're calling
00:16:06
them newsletters. The I mean you said he's
00:16:08
basically probably going to have to say something.
00:16:10
I mean that depends how much heat there is.
00:16:13
I certainly do believe. Yeah, I mean, now is the time to
00:16:17
be principled and to defect and you can't sort of straddle this
00:16:20
sort of global position anymore. So, I don't mean to say now that
00:16:26
we're at this sort of war that he's like, fine.
00:16:29
I'm just sort of saying from the pre-war period.
00:16:32
You can see why it's sort of, he has to keep his Russian
00:16:36
affiliation while navigating the global system.
00:16:39
It is a complicated situation, pre a red line are cute.
00:16:44
You agree that you didn't have to say something.
00:16:46
Or do you think that there's a chance?
00:16:47
He can weasel out of it. I think you can see he's gonna
00:16:49
Escape. I just feel like, he's just
00:16:52
like, not high enough on the list.
00:16:54
I mean, I think. Yeah.
00:16:55
I mean, as reporters, we should try to keep the pressure on it
00:16:59
and You're doing better than any of us on it.
00:17:02
Part. Part of this is just like the
00:17:03
like the Western Union Amity from different business on this
00:17:07
issue. Like I mean it's pretty rare.
00:17:09
I mean by the time that you mean comes out.
00:17:11
I'm sure it'll be some new some new twists, like every company,
00:17:14
you know, is under pressure to distance themselves from Russia
00:17:18
or like you've seen, you know, major well it's a combination of
00:17:21
under pressure and it being I mean, sorry, but somewhat
00:17:24
cynically and opportunity to Market yourself, for sure, for
00:17:27
sharply, okay. During this period of complete.
00:17:29
Agreement on an issue to say, hey, look at us.
00:17:32
We're you know, whatever donate to the ukrainians through your
00:17:36
Uber app. Well, think about, I mean, think
00:17:38
about the China situation, where everybody in Tech was terrified,
00:17:42
the Jack ma had basically been disappeared.
00:17:45
And that like, obviously anyone Intex, true opinion, was that
00:17:50
like the Chinese government cracking down, on powerful Tech
00:17:54
Elites in their own country was bad for business terrifying.
00:17:59
Not They thought China would do like that's obviously their
00:18:02
position but if you're ggv or Sequoia China articulating it
00:18:07
publicly like as a reporter, I desperately wanted them to do it
00:18:11
but I can see why it's like okay.
00:18:14
That would basically mean like shutting down your Chinese
00:18:17
operation. So there is sort of an ebb and
00:18:20
flow where obviously you know I think in the interest of global
00:18:24
understanding reporters are going to push them on it and try
00:18:28
to sort of surface. Us that contradiction but I can
00:18:31
understand why if you're the firm on the ground it's sort of
00:18:34
hard to say. Like you can't you know call it
00:18:36
the Chinese Communist Regime and expect to operate very
00:18:40
successfully there for long. Here's the thing though where I
00:18:43
guess run sympathetic to these firms it's like there's so much
00:18:46
fucking money right now out there and I understand if you're
00:18:48
a late-stage firm like you know there's only some sovereigns and
00:18:52
every every dollar is conflicted in some way or another what need
00:18:54
to raise as much as you do but like for like an earlier, look
00:18:58
kind of mid-stage firm. Do you really need to raise you
00:19:02
know, LP cash from any that? Anybody from anybody, that's a
00:19:06
tall conflicted. Like this is like much.
00:19:08
This is the, like I honestly feel like even.
00:19:10
Even since khashoggi in 18 like amount of money that's flowing
00:19:14
into the lp base and look like it's competitive, everyone wants
00:19:18
to raise the biggest phones and have the best LPS yada yada yada
00:19:21
but I would be interested in like a candid conversation.
00:19:25
Well that's why I think someone who I mean is closures always
00:19:27
such a lame thing. Disclosure is always a lame
00:19:30
reporter thing to call for but it is if Sequoia could say,
00:19:34
okay, we've got the Ford Foundation XYZ versus soft pink
00:19:39
with the Saudis. I mean they basically made that
00:19:41
argument but given that they don't fully disclose their LPS
00:19:46
it's less you know it's not front and center.
00:19:49
Whereas if they were just wearing sort of the benevolence
00:19:52
or terribleness of their LPS on their sleeves then yeah we could
00:19:57
the Brand's would be much more associated with that.
00:19:59
But I think the LPS are scared to do it and the VC, you know,
00:20:05
that's just hasn't been how it's been done, but it would be great
00:20:08
to see a firm. It's much more leading publicly
00:20:11
with here are the LPS. We represent, I mean, I wrote
00:20:13
about a firm Base Tens growth fund, which you know, is
00:20:18
basically getting in deals in part because, you know, some of
00:20:21
the money they're investing is a historically black colleges and
00:20:25
universities and they're giving them more favorable economics.
00:20:28
Like that's I feel like that's real change.
00:20:33
That's like change. That's at the core of how the
00:20:36
Venture system works. Yeah.
00:20:38
So I'd love to see more of that. So I don't like speaking him
00:20:41
like disclosure in Albie's. I always loved the bullshit that
00:20:43
like lots of firms say about, you know go to Susie's like
00:20:46
euphemisms described it all peas as foundations or family offices
00:20:51
or hospitals or Pension funds. Like and you know the they make
00:20:57
it sort of argument that like Alder LPS Like you know working
00:21:00
in pursuit of the public good by, you know, we're saying like
00:21:04
oh family offices like we're talking about billionaires here
00:21:09
like we're like it's like we're like foundations that like you
00:21:12
know and Rich the Flint philanthropic institutions of
00:21:14
like extraordinarily wealthy people.
00:21:16
And yes like I understand that like you know the Canadian
00:21:20
Teachers Fund or you know a public Hospital chain like does
00:21:23
have some public Mission but like ultimately this is like
00:21:27
financier, right? This is theirs.
00:21:29
Some people use the, they all lied, or these groupings.
00:21:33
I would say to, like describe their all peas in a way that
00:21:36
like are the most generous possible big difference between
00:21:40
like the Oregon teachers, pension fund or whatever and
00:21:43
like, L'Oreal Carver office. Yeah.
00:21:45
Well that yeah. Carver or her.
00:21:47
Yeah, right. So interesting Teddy because I
00:21:50
mean, the sort of masking of where the money comes from.
00:21:53
It's from the top down, you know, it's like the madrone, you
00:21:57
know, madrone Investments people here.
00:21:59
They're like oh I don't know exactly what that is sounds kind
00:22:02
of futuristic it's like no that's the Walton family they
00:22:04
could just call it the Walton Family Foundation or the Walton
00:22:07
family fun, but they want to Brand it in a way that doesn't
00:22:09
make it sound like it's coming from you know the richest
00:22:11
retailer family in the country. And so I mean I'd be interested
00:22:16
to know post this, you know what your thoughts are?
00:22:19
If we are going to start seeing more pressure for their there to
00:22:23
be LP or investor transparency and a lot of these big things
00:22:26
because one of the big turns that maybe is going to Come
00:22:29
from. This Ukrainian invasion is a
00:22:33
recognition that there is a number of pressure points that
00:22:38
can be placed on a government. We obviously can see what the US
00:22:41
government can do when like, they're sanctioning.
00:22:43
But also we've seen pressure from large corporations, not
00:22:46
doing business in Russia anymore.
00:22:48
And then now what we've been talking about with billionaires
00:22:50
and their connections to the Kremlin and they're putting
00:22:52
pressure on Putin to do something about it.
00:22:54
If we're going to start seeing all of these individual Parts as
00:22:57
actors in a political conflict, Shouldn't we impose some sort of
00:23:01
public pressure on them to be almost like quasi, government
00:23:05
requirements, that would have transparency.
00:23:07
You know, in the same way that we know who donated to a
00:23:09
political campaign, shouldn't we know who is funding, you know, a
00:23:13
large Venture firm because that in turn, we don't really know
00:23:16
who donates to a lot of political campaigns anymore.
00:23:18
I mean, disclosure rules or hair the better?
00:23:21
It's sure. I mean, there's there's dark
00:23:23
money and there's, you know, it's not entirely clear, but
00:23:26
it's at least closer to some level of transparency.
00:23:29
And see that we have with anything else.
00:23:31
Certainly with any sort of vent, you know, a private Equity or
00:23:34
Venture funds who is we hear like, I mean, I feel like that's
00:23:38
one of the things. Obviously, your pods about like
00:23:40
Tech and meteorite, like G, like, I've wondered and, you
00:23:44
know, is it, is it like should like journalists and the media
00:23:48
be like, you know, vocally and explicitly like anti-russia
00:23:53
right now. Like I feel like that's sort of,
00:23:54
like, an assumption baked into nice.
00:23:57
A pop, when you, when you, when you say like public, Sure.
00:23:59
Like me is the mere Act of like asking the area.
00:24:03
Like, in some way a like pro-america anti-russia
00:24:07
pro-ukraine kind of construct, I just wonder like, who is the we
00:24:11
in, what should we do about this?
00:24:13
Well sort of part of what's happening?
00:24:15
I think they're two different conversations Tom's and then
00:24:18
Teddy's Tom. I mean I think part of what
00:24:20
you're reflecting is just the shift to the private markets,
00:24:24
right? Like the SEC has a whole
00:24:25
disclosure regime. It's super controlled.
00:24:28
Everyone runs away. To the private markets.
00:24:31
And so there's way less disclosure and but the private
00:24:34
markets have become a huge part of the American economy.
00:24:37
All sorts of investors are allowed in investors that get in
00:24:40
the public markets are operating in the private markets.
00:24:43
There's sort of a laughable. It's laughable the idea that the
00:24:46
private markets are important to the American sort of business
00:24:50
world and sort of the health of the economy.
00:24:53
So if that's the goal of the SEC, shouldn't the SEC have much
00:24:56
more power to force disclosure. I agree.
00:25:00
I think there should be much more transparency in the private
00:25:03
markets. Obviously, I've a bad business
00:25:06
interest in that. I mean Teddy, I mean you're sort
00:25:10
of interested in who we should be rooting for or is for the
00:25:14
media ethics of it. Or what was yours is the mere
00:25:17
construct of this conversation based on an assumption that you
00:25:22
know, American Media, or American Tech media, should be,
00:25:26
you know, pro-ukraine and and look I mean there's always
00:25:29
Nicely in war subscribers. Always questions about, you
00:25:33
know, whether the media is on either party side.
00:25:35
But like, look, I think the mere fact of of reporters publicly
00:25:40
keeping the key on Russian investors or an American
00:25:43
companies business interest in Russia.
00:25:45
Like I feel like that reflects an assumption that American
00:25:51
Media should be at least quote, unquote, scrutinizing, Russian
00:25:56
interests. I don't know.
00:25:57
I mean, I don't I think that that Area that has accepted as
00:26:01
an article of faith that the unprovoked war was wrong.
00:26:06
That's true. Yeah.
00:26:07
And I don't know that that's wrong.
00:26:10
I don't know that that I just I don't know that that's wrong.
00:26:14
And I think that the reason why we were talking about people who
00:26:17
have great wealth is because the way that the West has chosen to
00:26:20
respond to the act of war, is to apply pressure to the people who
00:26:25
have the most influence over Putin core, very wealthy people.
00:26:27
If the people had most of the most influential However, Putin
00:26:30
were not a group of very wealthy people than we probably wouldn't
00:26:36
be having this conversation. So I don't think that the
00:26:38
conversation is driven by whether or not people are pro or
00:26:41
anti Russia and its Act of War. I think the conversation is
00:26:47
driven by the fact that the West has decided.
00:26:50
The people most able to have influence over Putin happened to
00:26:55
be this group of individuals, but I think it's, I mean, I
00:26:59
think it's Good. The media is basically except as
00:27:02
a premise that the invasion was bad and in some ways.
00:27:06
What? Right?
00:27:07
Katie. I mean, yeah, I mean, yeah,
00:27:09
right. I'm just not, I'm not sure like
00:27:11
what the argument is. I would be interested to hear
00:27:14
the argument that what Putin did was right?
00:27:16
I would be in here. Oh, let me introduce me to
00:27:20
people. I know.
00:27:20
It is Remy to worry about all of this.
00:27:23
She tell you, I think like your question is, like, whether the
00:27:27
media should be like in lockstep with You know, this belief that
00:27:31
or, you know, the sentiment that, you know, Ukraine is the
00:27:35
victim here, which I understand is.
00:27:36
It's just a matter of fact, but I also think that the media is
00:27:39
also in many ways, a reflection of what the public wants to hear
00:27:43
about. And at this moment, there is
00:27:45
almost unanimous agreement on the part of the public that, you
00:27:48
know, what Russia did is wrong here.
00:27:49
And there's a huge amount of pressure as part of that saying.
00:27:51
Alright, if Russia is the bad actor here we want to understand
00:27:54
what are the pressure points that can be brought to bear to
00:27:56
do something about this. And so the media is like, well,
00:27:59
Let's answer that question for you here.
00:28:01
If one of the pressure points here are the Oleg arcs and the
00:28:03
money that is Flowing out of Russia into US companies, it is
00:28:07
the duty of the media to inform the public.
00:28:09
Well, here's if you want to know more about this, here's the road
00:28:11
we can tell you exactly one. Here's what we can tell you.
00:28:14
Yeah, percent. It's as it's answering a
00:28:17
question. Well what what is, what is the
00:28:20
West doing to apply pressure to bear?
00:28:22
This is what they're doing. And I think if they chosen
00:28:24
something else, if they hadn't chosen, The wealth of a few
00:28:28
people then we would not be talking about oligarchs.
00:28:31
That's just it is what it is, right?
00:28:33
And if we thought that the huge amount, you know, the biggest
00:28:35
pressure that could be brought to bear was us companies that
00:28:38
are doing business in Russia. Like let's pretend that Netflix
00:28:41
is, you know, largest countries. Outside the US was in Russia,
00:28:44
you would probably asking people which they do have a presence in
00:28:47
Russia but I can't imagine it's very big because I love piracy
00:28:50
over there is like all right well what is Netflix doing it?
00:28:54
So anyway I think the biggest pressure to bear was Military.
00:28:57
We just be talking about military campaigns, right?
00:28:59
If we thought that the United, the table because of nuclear
00:29:02
war, but if we thought that the biggest pressure points that
00:29:05
could be brought to bear on Putin were the US Army going
00:29:09
into Ukraine, we would not be talking about oligarchs at all,
00:29:13
right? That's it.
00:29:14
We're just talking about the practicalities of what can be
00:29:16
done to apply pressure to Putin. Yeah.
00:29:19
Can I see Teddy like from your conversations with the ultra
00:29:22
wealthy or the people in their orbit over the last couple of
00:29:25
weeks? I mean, how much Reflection, are
00:29:27
they doing on? You know, they're intertwined
00:29:29
meant entwine met with with Russian money.
00:29:32
I mean, do you see any more recognition on their part that
00:29:35
like, they feel closer to it than they initially had thought
00:29:38
or hoped? I mean, the reality is, this is
00:29:40
sort of an aberration. No.
00:29:41
I mean, I do not think that there's, that many people write
00:29:45
like, the Curie is, sort of in the exception that I don't think
00:29:48
that there is, you know, massive Russian Albert.
00:29:50
He's in like, Andreessen Horowitz.
00:29:53
I remember better idea than I do, but like, in to some extent,
00:29:56
makes it Than Saudi cash or other ethically compromise.
00:29:59
Cash in the Middle East where it's more pervasive like like
00:30:04
can you guys think of a single other like major russian-backed
00:30:08
investor, a proper breads. So I don't know if this is
00:30:11
really like I ate a billionaire question or even a b c question,
00:30:14
especially like the area question, unlike I would say
00:30:17
with sound with the Saudis, we're like their money is and
00:30:20
lots of firms right on. This is sort of a one-off know,
00:30:24
right? And with assess my sense.
00:30:26
I mean we I was it was like a one year or not even, you know,
00:30:29
a several month period of reflection on the part of the
00:30:33
valley. And then it's amazing how
00:30:34
quickly they got over it and they all showed up at, you know,
00:30:38
the Riyadh conference or whatever it was that MBS had
00:30:41
been hosting. So yes, I think the fact that it
00:30:44
probably is easier for the valley to extricate itself from
00:30:47
Russia, because it is such a specific and non-residential
00:30:52
source of capital, right? So basically all of us coming
00:30:56
from On all of us sound like we are massive cynics about the
00:31:00
idea that like any Silicon Valley investor company.
00:31:03
Like actually has like is guided primarily by moral calculus here
00:31:09
and that obviously the business incentives or disincentives like
00:31:13
kind of ruled the day, I just think to the extent of morality,
00:31:17
they think building great businesses is a moral document
00:31:21
which is an easy thing to convince yourself, if that's how
00:31:23
you make money and therefore, In people's money and using it to
00:31:28
build businesses that you think are good for society, which many
00:31:31
of them are. I think let some sleep mostly
00:31:34
pretty easily. I don't even think it's his
00:31:35
randian, is that? I honestly think when it comes
00:31:37
down to it, a CEO does feel the same sort of moral paintings
00:31:41
that any other person does and things will what can I do
00:31:44
personally and they feel like it's within their power to do
00:31:47
something. So I do, I mean like even Elon
00:31:49
Musk who people are again giving shit 24 involving himself in the
00:31:53
situation, you know? I you know like the case.
00:31:56
Of like, the, the Thai soccer team or something and his
00:32:00
involvement in that, that was clearly a self-serving move
00:32:02
strictly to promote his own brand.
00:32:04
And, you know, he deserved all the bullshit he got from that,
00:32:07
the criticisms that he's getting now because, you know, he's
00:32:09
offering starlink internet. So, Ukraine at a time where
00:32:13
their internet is threatening to be shut off and suddenly, you're
00:32:16
hearing people criticize him saying, oh, this could be, you
00:32:18
know, a huge security nightmare because Russia could use that to
00:32:21
be able to track individual ukrainians.
00:32:22
I mean, sure, let's have that discussion.
00:32:24
Maybe there's some argument to it but I honestly believe.
00:32:26
Believe and maybe I'm being naive here that he is certainly
00:32:29
well. And I think it's well
00:32:30
intentioned. I honestly think he is seeing
00:32:32
the same footage that we all are in thinking like, well, jeez, I
00:32:34
can beam internet into and Ukraine.
00:32:36
Cannot use it. If they don't think it's
00:32:38
helpful. It feels weird to be like, oh,
00:32:40
here's a not. So I'm actually maybe not as
00:32:42
cynical as you're suggesting and maybe I'm the outlier here,
00:32:44
Teddy. But for once I'm actually like,
00:32:46
no, I actually think they are trying to do what they think
00:32:49
they can do it. There's like no dissent in
00:32:51
Western business about this right now, which is why it makes
00:32:54
the one exception. So unusual and flagrant.
00:32:59
So like I mean like what I think I think by the end of the end of
00:33:03
March, you're a wolf said something.
00:33:05
When I went, they want to take a bet on that before.
00:33:07
Teddy, you did the interesting list of the power players in
00:33:12
Silicon Valley, American politics splitting it between
00:33:16
Democrats and Republicans. Do you remember your list off
00:33:19
the top of your head? Can you give us the names real
00:33:21
quick and then a few observations?
00:33:23
Sure. So this was the the American
00:33:25
oligarch list, I guess. I'm basically we, you know, but
00:33:28
more important than who has power and Silicon Valley
00:33:32
Politics as who has the most power because everyone loves
00:33:36
stealing is from Sports. Media work, people rank things
00:33:39
for, absolutely no reason, you know, purely to stir shit up.
00:33:43
So we basically did, we called it the teal index, which was
00:33:46
basically a list of who, we thought the political donors
00:33:49
attack with the most juice were so the top of the list was what
00:33:54
Steel on the right? And his college, buddy?
00:33:56
Popcorn on the left. Some other folks were run Conway
00:34:00
Carla jurvetson. Larry Ellison, who's doing a lot
00:34:04
more politically than he ever owned the rights Larry Ellison.
00:34:07
Sorry. I used to be Frank Lloyd ylenne.
00:34:09
Ellison, is he on the right? You've been through David sacks
00:34:12
on there? I mean they were the fact is is
00:34:14
it easier to become a conservative Power Player?
00:34:16
This incredible power player attack.
00:34:19
I uh yeah you tell people that they give you if you want to
00:34:21
give you have like a couple hundred K year which is nothing
00:34:25
for these people, you Could be like you know a grand poobah of
00:34:29
Silicon Valley. Republican politics you, you put
00:34:31
a Hamas on the right. Did he go ballistic or does that
00:34:36
was a joke now basically joke. Yeah.
00:34:38
I mean, but he was and he's basically been cancelled by, you
00:34:41
know, I mean, I wonder how his powers feeling is about the
00:34:44
party system of changed since like you know you try to
00:34:47
canceled by the Tom cons of the world from the right music,
00:34:51
abusing a Bloomberg in Democrat, right?
00:34:53
He's all over the place. It's it's hard to discern a
00:34:56
Political valence to his stuff. He's so self-interested and so
00:35:00
interested in promoting him. Yeah.
00:35:03
Promoting his own personal brand that it seems to just be all
00:35:06
over the map is my, is my assessment Teddy with no butter
00:35:10
on our on our Republican list? Like yes, the David Sachs.
00:35:14
I mean, I'm obsessed with David Sachs, he's a smart guy, very
00:35:17
frustrating politics in my view. Do you think it's mostly about
00:35:20
just like getting low taxes and plane into sort of the social
00:35:24
issues to the degree? That that's, Like necessary or
00:35:29
you think they are also True Believers on sort of the Trump
00:35:34
assist. I would not talking about peel,
00:35:36
teal. Sorry.
00:35:37
Not talking about teal, the rest of the sax.
00:35:40
Larry, Ellison. Yeah.
00:35:42
I do you think this is just about sort of keeping taxes low?
00:35:45
At the end of the day? I don't, I mean, like, I mean,
00:35:47
like, like, I mean, people are genuinely conservative free
00:35:53
marketers, right? And that's not like, I don't
00:35:55
think everyone who thinks that is, you know, Looking at their
00:35:58
own kind of wealth management account and trying to lower
00:36:01
their tax burden. Like people should be genuinely
00:36:04
laissez-faire. Sure services.
00:36:06
Not just there like a book but it's a, it's a nice.
00:36:09
Yeah, yeah. It's like having people people
00:36:11
think that like, just because but the viewed only party, I
00:36:14
mean, literally the Republican party.
00:36:16
I mean, the most embarrassing thing that happened was Rick.
00:36:20
Scott accidentally said he wanted to raise taxes on most
00:36:23
Americans and Mitch McConnell's. Like absolutely, that's not
00:36:26
going to happen. So sure.
00:36:27
The Republican Elites can pretend like tax policy as sort
00:36:31
of a ideology is animating the party but they have to run and
00:36:35
hide from that when it comes to the that's not what the voters
00:36:39
want to hear about. So I'm just do you think the
00:36:41
elites are aligned with sort of what Mitch McConnell will
00:36:44
actually deliver or do you think they are starting to share some
00:36:49
of what the Republican voters want?
00:36:53
You mean you mean like truck-based wants?
00:36:56
Yeah, I just sort of the constant culture were fighting
00:36:59
sort of the truth. I mean, we're seeing trans
00:37:02
issues and the Republican governor race, right?
00:37:07
I mean I mean like I mean socks, obviously, as felt this way
00:37:09
since the Sanford review that you know, he's a provocateur and
00:37:13
like, why not both? I'm sure he genuinely believes
00:37:17
that low taxes are good for economic growth but like, even
00:37:21
he's not my butler. I didn't even draw a distinction
00:37:23
Haystacks and T on your, I know people start grouping together.
00:37:26
One is very rich, much more Rich than the other.
00:37:29
So it like, when you're comparing just like Power
00:37:32
Center, I wonder sure. But like, socks is, you know,
00:37:36
socks is not pro-trump in a way that you'll is just to give him
00:37:39
credit there. I mean, there is, there is,
00:37:41
there is anti anti Trump. He's, I'm going to be okay.
00:37:45
Yeah, I'm not going to articulate my view so that I can
00:37:47
have fun on Twitter sort of antagonizing Democrats.
00:37:50
Even though the alternative to the Democrats was the president
00:37:55
at the time. Donald Trump.
00:37:56
I also partially think, like, some of like the teal
00:38:01
Machiavelli in takeover of Republican politics storyline, I
00:38:05
think is an over, say, the little bit like part part of
00:38:07
this is honestly very much that Blake Masters and JD Vance
00:38:12
happened to be running this year and the same year, which was not
00:38:15
a guarantee. Both of them had looked at
00:38:17
running in 18 and 20 and it just so happens that you know, they
00:38:22
both ran the same year, Peter was getting more and more.
00:38:26
Not the politics that I feel like sometimes this is casted
00:38:29
this like takeover of you know the United States Senate and it
00:38:33
kind of is a coincidence and socks and you know whose knows
00:38:37
Peter sorry knows Blake and JD as well.
00:38:40
I think he's donated to both of them.
00:38:42
Yeah that is is is that is that really like a belief in trumpian
00:38:47
politics or is that just like hey to people he's known for a
00:38:49
long time or running for Senate like I'll give but of course, JD
00:38:52
Vance's, whole political posture has been Basically, to try to
00:38:57
get angry dunking tweets from the left on Twitter.
00:39:01
So it is very front of my right to people in Silicon Valley.
00:39:05
You know, it's like you're aligning yourself with the very
00:39:08
person who's seems like trying to just annoy your colleagues.
00:39:14
I mean Vance is losing, right? I mean it seems like Josh Mandel
00:39:16
is more likely to come out of the primary.
00:39:18
It's a kind of it's a, it's a, it's a complicated music, five,
00:39:21
or six candidates there. I mean, I could keep the Peter
00:39:23
money has definitely not been determinatives.
00:39:26
You know, 10 million dollars sounds like a lot each of their
00:39:28
super Pacs but it's really not that much.
00:39:31
I've honestly been surprised it's not more and I would expect
00:39:34
more to come. So for now though like Peter has
00:39:37
not really been a kingmaker. So maybe walk to moving down the
00:39:39
list but also he stepped off of the Facebook boards that he
00:39:42
could commit himself more to the political project that he is
00:39:46
apparently. You know, captaining so you
00:39:49
could you could also see a moving up the list if he you
00:39:52
know really donates more of his time to it, right.
00:39:55
Did you put Eric? Schmidt on your Democratic list.
00:39:57
Yeah, sure. It was a number three or number
00:39:58
four. Sure.
00:39:59
It's just like a Survivor. Should just like a survivor.
00:40:01
He's like, never gonna think I call him a cockroach and I know,
00:40:04
you know, I was actually a compliment he just he will never
00:40:07
ever lose a spot on the list because he's just a, he's always
00:40:11
in that he's always in the mix like even during the Trump are,
00:40:13
I even like, you know, talking with Kushner and just being
00:40:16
being around the hoop which I guess I sort of respect just
00:40:19
from a tactical standpoint. What are your thoughts on Reed
00:40:21
Hastings? I always find his political
00:40:23
involvement, very interesting because he's obviously an Spoken
00:40:27
liberal, and will support very publicly, most Democrats that
00:40:31
are running for office, but he's also very deeply aligned with
00:40:34
Charter Schools and once you push those, which I think.
00:40:38
Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's complicated.
00:40:41
And he gave a ton of money to hbcus to, right?
00:40:44
Yes. I mean, so read last week showed
00:40:46
up or to excuse should have been met in Jackson, Mississippi with
00:40:49
stone and to an HBCU there. And part of this is the
00:40:52
influence of his wife, Patty quillin, who is, you know, A
00:40:56
big, you know, social justice Lefty so to speak and she has
00:41:01
spent a ton of money on Criminal Justice Reform issues.
00:41:03
But right read is nominally a Democrat.
00:41:06
But his touch. The another third rail of
00:41:09
California. Politics or national politics
00:41:11
left, 20 years, which is he's very, very, very vocally
00:41:14
ProCharger in a way that makes him a little bit of a thorn in
00:41:20
the side of kind of the Progressive Movement.
00:41:22
Sure if teachers unions and of public schooling.
00:41:24
I mean those those Chardonnay Not exist compliment in
00:41:27
complementary Fashions. It takes it did, I mean read is
00:41:30
not that we gave like four million or three million bucks
00:41:33
to Gavin campaign, to prevent the recall of Gavin.
00:41:37
Ultimately, he is a kind of a single-issue voter at this
00:41:40
point, he cares most about Charters and I guess, Gavin's,
00:41:43
not horrible on that issue. But certainly is someone who
00:41:46
maybe should be scrutinized for interviewed or Look into little
00:41:51
more. Who's your like favorite
00:41:53
budding, political influence, or billionaire, like who's slightly
00:41:57
under the radar, but I think guess who he's gonna pick on
00:41:59
this? Yeah, okay, yes.
00:42:01
Well Sam, the eat the crypto guy, penguin, Freaks and beggar,
00:42:06
thank God for you. Yeah, I mean I'm very interested
00:42:09
in sort of the hysterics sort of right just the the effect of
00:42:16
altruist political sets. So people who are Are very
00:42:21
data-driven trying to, you know, almost bring a PhD level
00:42:26
statistical analysis to political donations.
00:42:28
So I've been running a lot about send backbut free, it is the CEO
00:42:32
of FTX the crypto exchange and is he's my age.
00:42:36
I guess he's younger than the new you husbands.
00:42:39
But Samm is Samm. He's sort of an X like attempt
00:42:43
to me you represent s next generation of donor which is
00:42:47
like total fucking hacks who like love the game.
00:42:50
Enter like that, I do their own complex data analysis and
00:42:54
writing like out sort like Outsourcing it to some staff.
00:42:57
There's now like this new class and effective alterus donor, who
00:43:00
is just obsessed with the game and the map, I guess.
00:43:04
That's the moskovitz is another sort of example, that Sam is
00:43:08
sort of taking the taken the World by storm.
00:43:09
Something running. A lot about him over the last
00:43:11
but dust it is getting less involved.
00:43:14
Yeah, according to your reporting in politics, and Sam
00:43:17
is getting more involved in the generals correct direction.
00:43:20
Mallet e. Okay, that's right.
00:43:21
Yeah. What about Mackenzie Scott
00:43:25
right? Is her strategy working or, what
00:43:26
sort of the mood on? I don't know, the, in the know,
00:43:30
sort of philanthropy type mood on her donation strategy.
00:43:34
I mean, yes, she is probably the most like like the media
00:43:37
narrative is sort of obsessed with her and his major until
00:43:39
like isayah look I you know she's giving away I think
00:43:43
probably around 10 billion dollars by this point she
00:43:46
certainly is different, right? She's doing this basically with
00:43:49
very very minimal. Staff doing it, very quietly.
00:43:53
Sort of the opposite of the effect of altruist might say,
00:43:55
just let s go where she is not running the numbers on
00:43:59
everything and being extremely exacting on nonprofits.
00:44:02
I do think that there is I mean, this is a contrarian opinion
00:44:05
that I do think that the it is possible.
00:44:08
This is ends up as a massive fuckup.
00:44:10
Like let's just like keep that as a possibility, like some of
00:44:13
the narrative has almost been two positives and that's not to
00:44:17
say that I'm bearish on Mackenzie but Like she the
00:44:21
mirror would be people who would, otherwise love process
00:44:25
expertise in systems suddenly love the person who's just like
00:44:28
throwing the money around, right?
00:44:30
I mean, that the sort of the argument like, like I mean, the
00:44:35
other kind of lumbering force in the hunter, oldest Gates
00:44:37
Foundation, and they 1500 staff, right?
00:44:40
And they're sort of the opposite of Mackenzie.
00:44:44
And it's like, I'm just I'm not saying that, like MacKenzie
00:44:46
experiment is not going to work and it very well could show that
00:44:50
Don't need 1 staff, The Gates Foundation, but let's
00:44:52
like, let's cool. The Jets a little bit.
00:44:54
Yeah, I where I worry given your sourcing base.
00:44:57
You, you have a rooting interest here.
00:44:59
I'm sure many of the the philanthropy world don't want to
00:45:02
be told that they're irrelevant. And in fact, detrimental to
00:45:07
benevolence and and good at was the fact that came out.
00:45:10
That was that was basically the premise of that book.
00:45:13
What was it called? It was it was basically a book
00:45:16
about how like the idea of philanthropy especially globe,
00:45:20
Well, philanthropy was just winners, Nicole winner s all,
00:45:23
thank you. Just did not work and it was a
00:45:25
huge failure. Yes, very controversial and
00:45:29
successful book. Yeah.
00:45:30
They're looking for like, four examples of books that like make
00:45:33
an impact when or Segal has been enormous impact in just pissing
00:45:37
off an entire South Africa. So kudos to Anand 4:04 like
00:45:44
succeeding, you did it, we're getting people to read your book
00:45:46
which is honestly, an accomplishment, because most
00:45:48
people don't read anyone's mind, right?
00:45:50
At least in within the court of billionaires, everyone was
00:45:52
sitting around, starting book. Clubs being all angry about it.
00:45:55
There is a story that I don't know if this is true or not, but
00:45:58
a non has said it is true that like there was a big
00:46:01
philanthropy in Silicon Valley, I guess I shouldn't say which
00:46:03
one because on confirmed, but that there was a delivery of
00:46:07
boxes of anons book to the philanthropy for like a book
00:46:10
club at the world. I'm thrown out in a very Vivid
00:46:14
demonstration of these peoples openness to critique.
00:46:17
That's like the donor version of like pouring like champagne down
00:46:19
the toilet. It fits like right.
00:46:20
Let's throw out an odds book but then we had to buy it too.
00:46:23
So actually this benefited him or the one.
00:46:25
I'm gonna burn it right? Yes.
00:46:27
We do. You think we pay too much
00:46:29
attention to billionaires? Like that is weird kid.
00:46:31
Like we're so obsessed with them.
00:46:33
We're so obsessed. Fire, Teddy.
00:46:35
Yeah. Thatís a said, he's gonna leave
00:46:36
his beat at the end of this podcast.
00:46:38
We're so obsessed with like, no, no Hollywood Washington, and New
00:46:42
York, Wall Street, Washington and Hollywood.
00:46:46
That's all we kind of care about largely writ large.
00:46:50
The media but do you mean Sarah is on Katie's mind.
00:46:53
That's the yeah. That is that is totally the
00:46:57
audience of this podcast. Exactly the Milwaukee Master
00:47:01
everybody everyday person is the audience, it's just like yeah we
00:47:07
are we are we giving billionaires too much credit for
00:47:10
how much power they actually have such a very sophisticated
00:47:14
point. I think is quite possibly true
00:47:16
and saying about a lot. Look even in politics like Like,
00:47:20
yes, billionaires and a lot of power, especially, in, like,
00:47:23
down ballot races, where he know, someone could decide to
00:47:26
fund a random candidate who has no money, and suddenly they do
00:47:29
have money, but like Michael Bloomberg burned through a
00:47:32
billion dollars in God, you know, a couple delegates from
00:47:35
American Samoa to some extent. I feel like the peak of
00:47:37
billionaire, power politically with almost in like the mid
00:47:40
2010's like 2012 2013 2015 kind of before the ride probably Koch
00:47:46
brothers. Yeah before the rise of
00:47:49
especially at You know, George Soros mauled, small dollar money
00:47:53
and philanthropic Lee. I don't know, I guess I'm less
00:47:55
convinced philanthropically look.
00:47:57
If if Sergey Brin decides that he wants to fund Alzheimer's
00:48:01
research, instead of Parkinson's research said of cancer
00:48:04
research, like people's lives could depend on that decision,
00:48:08
right? Butters?
00:48:08
What disease they die from or don't die from.
00:48:11
So I think on the margins, there are these like Niche Fields were
00:48:15
billionaires have enormous philanthropic power.
00:48:18
Like you were talk about Reed Hastings.
00:48:19
Like there could be a charter school or not.
00:48:21
Be a charter school because of what Reed Hastings decides to do
00:48:25
or three dates things change his mind on an issue like that could
00:48:28
spell out and have a major impact on society.
00:48:32
So I don't think that like this is the most important being in
00:48:35
the world and there are certainly some Lefty critiques.
00:48:39
But billionaire power that I like, vehement Lee disagree
00:48:42
with. But I do think it is, certainly
00:48:44
under-covered still, even though, you know, I've been
00:48:47
doing this effort for four years and I wonder if our Desire for
00:48:50
there to be a narrative that billionaires are in control.
00:48:54
It's because at least gives us the idea that at least someone
00:48:57
is, right? Yeah, at least someone is
00:49:00
driving this fucking ship in the world if it's not Nancy pricey
00:49:04
and it's not Mitch McConnell it's not Joe Biden.
00:49:06
Well yeah it's not your filner and it does well.
00:49:10
Thank you very yeah give me somebody somebody I think you
00:49:14
know to bring it back to Ukraine.
00:49:16
We've seen the pressure points that the u.s. and the richest
00:49:19
people People and it's companies are trying to put here to stop
00:49:23
this from going on, but it could be that if the campaign in
00:49:27
Ukraine Putin's campaign, Ukraine is on successful, it
00:49:30
could largely be due to the fact that militarily.
00:49:33
It was a failure because of the resistance on the part of
00:49:36
ukrainians and that's something that the West had no control
00:49:38
over that is strictly something. That was the human decision by
00:49:42
millions of people to resist it and, you know, in one sense,
00:49:45
obviously that's very heartening.
00:49:48
But also shows that like the things that we Side or power in
00:49:51
this world and you know, what can change the destiny of
00:49:54
millions and billions of people are way out of way more out of
00:49:57
control than we initially thought.
00:49:59
And it's both comforting and kind of terrifying at least and
00:50:02
the B Administration. I mean, they really manage the
00:50:04
story about this was happening. The intelligence apparatus like,
00:50:07
I think, you know, we've been living in this post, Iraq war,
00:50:11
you know, government, Security State is irrelevant, and this
00:50:14
has been a case that they're far more relevant than.
00:50:18
Yeah, the business I really do. Jesus but I do think it's also
00:50:21
true that the u.s. government has been extremely relevant in
00:50:27
sort of navigating this situation.
00:50:29
Sure. Or at least helping to shape the
00:50:31
narrative which is important and like an on foreign policy realm.
00:50:35
I think, in which we've seen billionaires, their efficacy
00:50:39
questioned is education, right? So if you look at New Orleans
00:50:44
and Louisiana so much money including from Michael
00:50:47
Bloomberg, Believe The Waltons was poor.
00:50:50
And two different School braces there, Reed Hastings, in order
00:50:54
to basically affect an outcome because they believe that by
00:50:57
introducing more school choice and D.
00:50:59
Emphasizing public schools, there would be a radical shift
00:51:02
in education, outcomes in New Orleans.
00:51:04
Now, that radical shift and outcomes has not happened.
00:51:07
It hasn't happened in New Orleans or Louisiana despite all
00:51:10
of the money and despite the fact that several of those races
00:51:12
were won by the candidates backed by outside money for
00:51:16
sure. And so it's like when you, when
00:51:17
you look at this data driven group of billionaires.
00:51:19
Ears. Do they ever?
00:51:21
You know, when you talk to them, they look at data like that and
00:51:23
pause and go. Maybe there was some human
00:51:26
nature stuff in there or there were some infrastructure stuff
00:51:28
in there that we didn't really account for and that we can
00:51:31
control. There's meat, there's been like
00:51:33
some Reckoning on Ed reform, specifically, I mean, like the
00:51:35
Gates Foundation is basically said that the education push was
00:51:39
a failure to say that about couple years two or three years
00:51:41
ago, this point which was a rare treat to cater your point, a
00:51:44
rare admission of a faults and in a world where every, you
00:51:48
know, Billy I think that they are The Savior when you talk to
00:51:52
these and I'm gonna let you, we're going to like when you
00:51:54
talk to these billionaires. All right.
00:51:57
Let's wrap this up with yeah ring but now we're like, let's
00:52:00
dive back is just New Orleans. We hold them hostage, just a
00:52:07
human eyes. I mean like when you talk to the
00:52:09
actual just to humanize Teddy billionaires and I'm here.
00:52:13
Well, I don't know what the Princeton like.
00:52:14
When you talk to the billionaires, do they still
00:52:16
think philanthropy is like an unequivocal?
00:52:19
Good? It or if they sort of accepted
00:52:21
that you might come at them with sort of as a premise that their
00:52:25
philanthropy is suspect. Like, do they think it's just a
00:52:29
matter of whether they were successful in their goals?
00:52:31
Or are they open to sort of questions on just sort of the
00:52:34
general project? Yeah, that's a good question II.
00:52:39
Do not think that they are open to the question of it as a
00:52:42
general project yet, like for all the success of like the
00:52:45
Ananda but we're just talking about a moment ago.
00:52:48
Ultimately He is sort of treated as almost like it's like a
00:52:53
basketball game where you know, you want to score more points
00:52:55
and you score more points by doing more.
00:52:57
Like the question is good. Philanthropy is more
00:53:00
philanthropy and and it's like almost it's almost covered like
00:53:04
sports at times where there's very little critical coverage of
00:53:08
these people and I think they're also extraordinarily thin
00:53:10
skinned. I don't think my coverage is
00:53:12
necessarily that quote, unquote confrontational and and likes
00:53:17
asking basic questions about, like, how is your foot Anthropy
00:53:20
structure. You know who runs it?
00:53:23
Like stuff like that you know right.
00:53:25
They say I think the the Baseline level of scrutiny that
00:53:29
they're prepared for is very very low.
00:53:30
I'd like say, you know, venture capital or tack where I think
00:53:33
people at this point like get the reporters are going to dig
00:53:36
around and like I've had flax in philanthropy be upset that I'm
00:53:41
like contacting like former employees.
00:53:43
Just like basic shit that, right?
00:53:46
Because I think I, you know, every every field has its own Of
00:53:50
media culture and there is not strong investigative or honestly
00:53:55
just sophisticated reporting about this stuff so everyone can
00:53:59
be a bunch of babies sometimes. So in conclusion, Teddy is
00:54:02
saying that Federal governments are better.
00:54:04
Allocators, have tapped out towards public good.
00:54:06
Then the millionaires? Yeah.
00:54:09
If I could say, I have a friend that loves just like basically
00:54:14
Miss just like, you know, you just, you just grab one thing
00:54:17
someone says and, you know, Twisted in Different ways and
00:54:20
move on, move on as quickly as possible before they had a
00:54:23
chance to correct. Its the, yes, we'll definitely
00:54:25
title this podcast by philanthropies failed.
00:54:31
Thank you, teddy for doing this. This was great.
00:54:33
Thank you. Yeah, glad to have you, I'm sure
00:54:35
we'll have you back Silicon Valley.
00:54:50
Goodbye. Goodbye.
00:54:51
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. Goodbye.
00:54:50
Goodbye. Goodbye.
00:54:51
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. Goodbye.