Bloomberg’s Mark Bergen is the world’s top Google Kremlinologist, chronicling the rise and fall of technocrats and technologies inside Google parent company Alphabet.
This week, Bergen published a book on Google subsidiary YouTube called Like, Comment, Subscribe: Inside YouTube’s Chaotic Rise to World Domination.
That Bergen decided to set his sights on YouTube, Google’s massive user-generated video site, reflects YouTube’s significance inside of parent company Alphabet. The video platform is shaping culture worldwide without receiving Facebook-level scrutiny.
Dead Cat co-host Tom Dotan and I talked with Bergen on this week’s Dead Cat about his new book and YouTube’s ascendancy.
We asked:
* Why does YouTube's early legal battle with Viacom explain how YouTube evolved?
* What does it mean that YouTube star PewDiePiew has been displaced by a ubiquitous Mr. Beast?
* Why has YouTube been so weak willed about punishing the worst actors on its platform?
Give it a listen.
Get full access to Newcomer at www.newcomer.co/subscribe
00:00:06
Welcome. Hey everybody.
00:00:14
Welcome to Dead cat. Tom dote on here, joined by E.
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Newcomer just wrote a new comer make it true.
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Eric newcomer we got a very exciting episode today, joining
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us today is Mark Bergen reporter at Bloomberg and author of the
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new book. Like comment, subscribe inside
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you too. ABS chaotic rise to World,
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Domination chaotic, rise to World Domination, did you most
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hyped hyped book on this podcast, avionic.
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Rise to World Domination. Like how much pressure was there
00:00:40
from the publisher to really pump up?
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You know, like the subtitle for a book, it's about an internet
00:00:45
company, it was know, what are the original one out there.
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I'll give you the Insight was and how you took over the world
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conquer the world, okay? And then there was some concern
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that, that would be like a little.
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Like, I mean, I am super, I do What people that makes it seem
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to intentional, right? The chaotic sort of made it seem
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like it was like how they did it which is like, you know, also
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true. Like people I think hopefully
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people that are like super, super popular.
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A lot of YouTube fans or people who like love to company in like
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think they're the best thing would also be interested in the
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book that I asked, you know, I didn't want people to say like,
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oh, this is just that I think there are some expectation that
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maybe they were right. There are those business books
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that are more, just like, you know, the rise to success and
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how you can be successful. If you follow the YouTube path,
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where this is more, like, this is the site that has also been a
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platform for some of the words. We wanted some chaos in there.
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Right. Right.
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And it was wild wild rides. But, anyway, Mark has been
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covering Google for years at Bloomberg.
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How close were you to newcomer? And the office?
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This is a question I now ask people.
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Oh yeah, we're just, uh, yeah, this is great.
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Wait, I was certainly within earshot who was sort of like
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diagonal. Yeah and we would often, I feel
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like I miss turning and might have like I'm just doing like an
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Abrupt right turn right? I can area was like one of the
00:02:03
like love to talk and why wait when you're on the phone when
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you're trying to get when you're older like post-mortems or I was
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always looking for office drama. You know it's like I do I would
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be like I would often turn to him me like I'm suddenly really
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good call right. You wanted to see me.
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There's no one on the other side and I feel like we often.
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I also, I was always trying to get Eric to in this city
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understandably. Like sometimes past I was just
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like Maps is like the biggest, don't worry.
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Yeah, I really like that was a game of Bloomberg where every
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reporter had like something on their beat that they thought was
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the most important thing in the world.
00:02:38
And you have to make some calculation.
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Like, even if I deliver on this, is it what's in it for me?
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But Mark has been covering Google for forever and and I
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think you've been one of the most kind of Of reporters and
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getting inside, you know, the corporate drama there and then
00:02:52
now more specifically YouTube and I so I mean, which I'm
00:02:56
assuming is what led into your desire to write this book,
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right? I mean, like what, you know, you
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kind of in your, is it in your intro, like author intro you
00:03:03
sort of say like no one's really done the YouTube book right?
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Now one's really taken the time to explain the origins of the
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company and its, you know, chaotic world rise domination.
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Yeah, I'm I'm like a spiral. I consider myself a Google
00:03:17
criminologist and that's My favorite thing to do and maybe
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it's not like a super useful skill, but I like the Google is
00:03:25
like a very powerful organization.
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I feel like I'm more interested in like, how like works and
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doesn't work in the sort of. And anyway, so yes that was, you
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know, came in coverings, we 13 and YouTube was very much a
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Hollywood Story, right? So I worked for goes back,
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agree, code, and like, Peter kafka's phenomenal, media
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reporter, like, got the like YouTube that side of the YouTube
00:03:44
and the streaming and it's like whenever they butted he would
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and it wasn't really like a, it wasn't like the platform
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contact. Moderation story was there,
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right? No one was paying attention to
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it in bulk, that's in the pressing, the company itself and
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it was after 2017, the series of crises and advertising play
00:04:03
cards. And all the stuff that ticket
00:04:05
for the point. That book, when I started to dig
00:04:07
in one, key moment was like a former YouTube person was like,
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you really didn't order to understand this, you have to go
00:04:12
back to the bike. I'm lawsuit.
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Like took. That's like where you two people
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cut their teeth on that and like so much it.
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Company in party, understand a company.
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You have to go back to that. It's sort of like an order to
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understand Google. You have to go to Burning, Man.
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I mean the book starts off with like a shooting, you know.
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It is a very dramatic opening and I think captures like the
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real world, dark sort of stakes for the company and sort of how
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much tearing down, you know, the sort of elite guardians of
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information flow has sort of changed the world.
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And so I I think the book is very smart and sort of setting
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that up as the stakes and that's obviously a theme, we care a lot
00:04:54
about. So I wanted to get that in the
00:04:56
readers ear but then before we get to that I think the other
00:05:00
thing that is very clear from the start of the book is the
00:05:03
YouTube is this like super important company that I think
00:05:08
that almost because it was buried in Google and alphabet
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and all this it hasn't gotten the heat that Facebook has
00:05:16
gotten and you do a good job and I can you rattle Like how big is
00:05:20
YouTube? And like the sense that YouTube
00:05:22
is like actually much more important to the culture Than
00:05:25
People necessarily appreciate if they're not a young person sort
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of, I'm on it all the time but I still feel like somehow the
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media hasn't really communicated, how big it is
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relative to Facebook, to give a sense of size.
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There was a Pew study. Was it last week too soon.
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Thomas like couple weeks ago. Yeah.
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Like something I would like to hold teens 2014.
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And for some reason they didn't ask him about YouTube.
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I like, you know, it was like, what?
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How oft, what are you? What sites do you with social
00:05:52
media sites to you visit and with YouTube is 95% said like,
00:05:56
and then like it was the most it was talk, it was above
00:05:59
Instagram. Well, they would like their
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other, like, and I think the prot like part of the issue that
00:06:03
like YouTube, It's answer question about why doesn't God
00:06:05
as much scrutiny is because it sits in this like, weird nether
00:06:07
region where it's like, sort of streaming but not, if sort of
00:06:10
social media, but not like some of it is structural, we're like,
00:06:14
you know, our desk like Bloomberg and other Publications
00:06:17
like the Google reported Recovers YouTube and the girl
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reporter is you know, covering like self-driving cars and like
00:06:24
antitrust and everything and then YouTube it's just like was
00:06:28
cynic. Could say Google is professional
00:06:30
at distracting people, it's like that.
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Yes, also very true. They're very, they're very good.
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They don't do like that. You don't see like YouTube and
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Google executive like fighting on Twitter, like Facebook.
00:06:41
And I think that's it. Like they're very and they just
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like their PR team. Often doesn't respond or spawns
00:06:47
late, and I think it's an intentional Gee some of it is
00:06:49
like they're just a little bit there like cautious meet like
00:06:52
sort of the Google's of her click become a very conservative
00:06:55
company in like doesn't move quickly on and stuff but because
00:06:59
of that they just avoided scrutiny.
00:07:01
You know thing that I have the book is like season widgets he's
00:07:05
ever been testified before Congress heard of that was that
00:07:07
like people Congress don't know who she is and that's what I
00:07:10
kind of an intentional strategy. Other part of it is only people
00:07:13
in Congress. They're old, they use YouTube
00:07:16
like majority of people use your Jeep which is like It helps me
00:07:19
like, fix my sink right in like there is you to we have to like
00:07:24
a giddy. Is it like for majority people?
00:07:27
It's a utility. It's an idol entertainment and
00:07:30
like, but but it they kind of use it like Google search.
00:07:34
I think Facebook and Instagram Tick-Tock and Twitter are bit
00:07:38
more like Facebook particular. Like people have like, the sort
00:07:41
of weird guilty feelings about, you know, you tell you so much
00:07:43
sorry with my friends right now, it seems more enjoyable than
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Facebook krusher know what people are like.
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I Wish I would you post on Instagram not watching YouTube's
00:07:51
to be like jealous of someone or to style somewhat early.
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I feel like so many the main use cases of, I mean, they don't
00:07:57
exist, YouTube is everything so that there are parts of YouTube
00:08:02
and people who, like, watch root like should religiously and have
00:08:05
parasocial relationships and like be strong ties.
00:08:08
Right? But I generally like, most
00:08:10
people like they don't have to feeling like Instagram by Night,
00:08:13
talks to me, friends, like I wish I didn't look at Instagram
00:08:16
so much. No one says that I get you to
00:08:17
really that's what's kind of Interesting about, you know, you
00:08:20
mentioned this Pew study that didn't even ask teens in 2014.
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Yeah, whether they use which in one sense, you could almost
00:08:28
argue. Well YouTube isn't really a
00:08:29
social networks in the morning, the most pure sense.
00:08:32
So maybe it didn't make sense to put it on the survey back then.
00:08:35
But like clearly they that is wrong, it very much is a social
00:08:39
network. I was a 2014 is also kind of a
00:08:41
pivotal year for YouTube which we can get to later in the
00:08:43
conversation. But yes, at this point, it's
00:08:46
undeniable that YouTube sits very much.
00:08:48
In the same kind of strata as all of these social networks,
00:08:51
become more video-oriented Tick-Tock being the most obvious
00:08:54
example, like yes, it needs to be put in there and when you do
00:08:58
it, it is this be meth dwarfing, everything else by, you know,
00:09:02
significant orders, the American, Pediatric Association
00:09:05
puts a big report on media 2015, 2016, then digital media.
00:09:10
They looked too deep, like kids in media, didn't look at YouTube
00:09:13
at all. And I remember talking to Stan
00:09:14
authors, like this total blind spot and it's been a blind spot
00:09:17
and, like, research and In Academia along with journalism
00:09:20
and partly it's like YouTube. Another like YouTube is really
00:09:23
does not share data like it just and they don't have there's no
00:09:26
crab tangle for you too bright and so, go back to your question
00:09:30
are, like item list at. They always feels the most
00:09:32
recent one, I'm sure it's like maybe 600 now but I think it's
00:09:35
like 5:00 uploaded every minute which is mind-boggling.
00:09:40
You usually was leaning into podcasting more like, I like, I
00:09:43
don't have you seen this but like Pockets, like, yours and
00:09:46
ability. By the time this podcast comes
00:09:48
out. I will Have had a story.
00:09:50
Okay, month example. Yeah.
00:09:51
But like are like like one, click like be able to upload
00:09:56
your pockets as a video. It's just like, you know,
00:09:58
podcast long, right? Like that's just so much more
00:10:00
content. The great anecdote, I found the
00:10:03
book and I hope people re it and I'll is like one guy comes in an
00:10:07
engineering team, realizes like that YouTube stuff.
00:10:10
It's like a head like a private setting region like so upload
00:10:13
video and put on private, so no one can see it unless they have
00:10:16
the link, right? And he's like, Companies were
00:10:19
just uploading security, cam flow, my God and just like
00:10:23
terabytes of this stuff, right? And then finally, you to crack
00:10:26
down on it but it just like that.
00:10:28
Yeah, the fact that they just on they're sitting on their servers
00:10:31
and like they have enough money to sort of ignore this but right
00:10:34
companies would upload just security cam and you still do
00:10:37
that. I don't know.
00:10:39
I brought my I was told that they, I mean like that's also
00:10:41
useful for Google's, a data company and like video data, it
00:10:46
just because he said, it's a private doesn't mean it's Going
00:10:48
to be walled off from anything? Yeah.
00:10:50
I don't know the details there but I imagined you to be able to
00:10:53
like crunch that in there. Sir, I'll never work magic, kit
00:10:56
can I go before we get into all the stuff that you get into the
00:10:59
book on a personal level? Because we're all around the
00:11:02
same age? Yes.
00:11:03
And and, and I'm pretty. I'm ancient I'm older than I
00:11:06
look. Well, you look very young and
00:11:08
your author photo. Actually, I take that back.
00:11:10
You look kind of craggy. I'd like to kind of a wacky
00:11:12
author. It's an excellent, a photo I
00:11:15
love it and the hair. I don't know if it's enhanced
00:11:17
but it's spectacular. Our but no, we're all around the
00:11:19
same age and and I would honor hands get that on the record.
00:11:23
But both of you guys like what are your first memories of
00:11:26
YouTube? Like when it first crossed her
00:11:27
radar as a site? Because I remember very
00:11:30
distinctly mine and I'm curious with you guys.
00:11:33
I'll go, I'll start so yeah I mean so you know it was when I
00:11:37
was in college and like you mentioned in your book, there
00:11:39
was a very kind of scattershot and environment of video serving
00:11:45
sites out there, eBaum's World Myspace is still.
00:11:48
Kind of around. They were Megaupload boys or
00:11:50
something like that. Yeah.
00:11:52
And and then, at some point people were telling me because
00:11:55
Arrested Development was still a big show back then.
00:11:57
And you were like, oh, there's all these episodes are all up on
00:12:01
site and they're like, it's on YouTube and I'm like, you to the
00:12:04
like the band. Like, why would they be hosting
00:12:06
episodes of Arrested Development?
00:12:08
Like, no YouTube, it has like, it's the site that you can watch
00:12:10
videos on. And I mean, I was a little bit
00:12:12
late to the game. I think this was like two
00:12:14
thousand seven, but yeah, it was, and it was a professional
00:12:17
video, which we can talk, you know, me.
00:12:18
From a media company. So that's, you know, it figures
00:12:21
also into the YouTube story. But with you guys, do you have a
00:12:23
memory of when YouTube first? You know?
00:12:26
But I mean I don't think I mean I'm Prime by the book.
00:12:29
This is when you talk about but I do remember the Lazy Sunday
00:12:32
video from SNL being Sookie and then also that it eventually
00:12:37
like went away and it felt like so stupid because that was like
00:12:41
I was watching over and over again.
00:12:42
It was probably one of my most definitive SNL branding moments
00:12:46
of all time. The idea that they would Be shy
00:12:49
about. It was was insane.
00:12:51
I also thought it was amusing. The book just so you talked
00:12:53
about sort of YouTube reaching out to NBC and me like if you
00:12:56
have a problem with this, like we can take it down and it just
00:12:59
sort of like a lot of the bullshit well, to be clear.
00:13:01
That was, that was like Michael schaper, who was keeping his
00:13:05
brothers and Lonely Island's, throw, interesting.
00:13:08
Yeah, it was Michael schaper. Also, was he on Snapchat for a
00:13:11
while was here security? Okay.
00:13:12
Yeah, I've talked about before nice guy, and a great sort of
00:13:15
character from YouTube's really yours both.
00:13:18
But there's like a book character but also I think like
00:13:20
really give Mike a credit for like inventing a lot of like
00:13:23
they're only content. Moderation rules in the internet
00:13:25
that that didn't actually exist back then, but sorry to answer
00:13:28
questions under your sink. Some viral video about shoes
00:13:31
humor. This.
00:13:32
It's like one of those, like, let's get some shoes.
00:13:34
Yeah, yeah. It's like the same era.
00:13:36
Like, my wife is like, really into this.
00:13:38
We watch this little one, a similar one, that's like the not
00:13:42
now, bro. I'm in the fucking Zone.
00:13:43
Remember this guy like these ones that like, don't really
00:13:46
hold up. It's like a lot of a lot like a
00:13:48
lot. Hurley YouTube, like doesn't
00:13:49
really hold out. No, especially the stuff we
00:13:51
thought was funny and call. Ya, as I mean, Shane Dawson, we
00:13:53
can get in. But, yeah.
00:13:54
So, I mean, I, I'm also, I graduated in 2007, and I think
00:13:59
I, when I was talking to one of my most fun reporting, this was
00:14:02
like, talking to the early tubers, who were my age and like
00:14:05
Freddie Wong. There's a character in a black
00:14:07
and gray and he's like, you know, this like YouTube was
00:14:10
verse when he was in college in a film student.
00:14:12
Then like a lot of like the early YouTubers were around that
00:14:17
age like and Like the think tank, John Green are a little
00:14:20
bit older. But yeah and that was like it
00:14:23
was still, I think there's a really interesting divide and
00:14:26
YouTubers are more eloquent of this than I am.
00:14:28
But like between people who grew up watching TV and then like
00:14:31
YouTube was this rebellious thing and then like the
00:14:33
generation like Logan, Paul and like gen Z that like grip on
00:14:36
YouTube like mr. Be straight like didn't watch
00:14:38
those two pieces and watch TV. I mean, one thing that strikes
00:14:41
me, I think this is sort of a shared thread among a lot of
00:14:44
these tech companies, where an issue that things have become.
00:14:48
Some big issues for them over time.
00:14:50
They were like, extremely aware of early, right?
00:14:53
Like the copyright thing, like, basically growing on the back of
00:14:56
copyright. The fact, which I didn't know at
00:14:58
all, until I read the book was just the idea that they were
00:15:02
trying to make it almost like a dating site and running like
00:15:04
Craigslist ads. Get women on.
00:15:06
They were like, very aware of the porn problem, like these
00:15:09
companies pretend like, oh, yeah, we're trying our best, but
00:15:11
like, the people have been there the longest understand that
00:15:14
like, the issues are like Court, like Coral.
00:15:18
Here's how they built it in the first place.
00:15:20
It's often like oh yeah you big a you build a big Tech problem
00:15:23
product and you have all these problems but really it's like
00:15:26
know you rode the things that people are angry about and now
00:15:30
are trying to like clean it up later, right?
00:15:33
Or the dating site thing is also hilarious.
00:15:35
To me, I had never heard that before, but you write in the
00:15:37
book that it was kind of a riff on Hot or Not.
00:15:41
Tune in a cup. Yeah.
00:15:42
And and which again with like, Facebook facemash being the
00:15:46
inspiration for it, it just seems like In the early 2000s,
00:15:49
like the Horizon of what the internet could be, that was
00:15:52
where it was. It was like, oh, this could be a
00:15:54
way that we could like decide whether or not someone is
00:15:56
fuckable. The founders were under under
00:15:59
30, which is something to like, I mean, I guess they were like,
00:16:02
kind of close to 30 call them the PayPal be team, which I
00:16:05
enjoy. Yeah, that was not my term but
00:16:08
yeah, like I think, yeah, we didn't like the whole Pounders
00:16:14
in the comic story, which I didn't there's a lot there.
00:16:16
We've got Chad Hurley and Steve. Chen.
00:16:19
There are two of the key players, right?
00:16:21
Yeah. Third the third went to have had
00:16:23
like left for Google. Yeah.
00:16:25
And by the way a rare case of a internet startup, huge success
00:16:29
story that did not involve a lawsuit from among the founders.
00:16:32
Right. Didn't seem like anyone was
00:16:34
claiming credit that they didn't get there.
00:16:35
Something there was some controversy about it afterwards
00:16:38
about like the idea. But yeah, but like relatively on
00:16:41
glowing like the guy still made like 300 the one who left so
00:16:44
many like 300. Yeah.
00:16:46
I mean, he's like reappeared and is out there.
00:16:48
Very interesting ways. Like he, you know, the famous,
00:16:50
my favorite one is like, when you remember when Google Plus
00:16:53
was a big thing, like who will force it in order to comment on
00:16:57
YouTube using Google+ account? And, like job, ad posted the
00:16:59
first ever. YouTube video.
00:17:00
I'm goes back and like, I think the verbatim quote is like, why
00:17:03
the fuck are you to Google Plus account?
00:17:05
So he's like re and then he reappears recently when they
00:17:07
like took away the dislike count on like this, right on YouTube.
00:17:12
He was against it or what he was very much against it.
00:17:15
Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's it to me.
00:17:18
But YouTube is like hope I could capture this in the book and he
00:17:21
was a hearty was a challenged reporting like you should not
00:17:24
not Facebook, not Twitter. There's no Jack.
00:17:26
There's no Zuckerberg Snapchat, right?
00:17:28
There's no, like founder, who's been there.
00:17:31
They like Jack has more or less been there the entire time,
00:17:34
right? Right.
00:17:34
Like you need like the founders and you were like interesting
00:17:37
characters but like and I think there's a lot there about like
00:17:41
the why they Steve didn't help issues like the Chad like ran to
00:17:46
like the the wall will to the Borg they left early on and then
00:17:51
like the second CEO which I love to talk to about.
00:17:54
Actually if you guys are interested in that howling
00:17:55
seller was so kind of a placeholder and so like in
00:17:59
YouTube sort of like these these executives are stewards Morad
00:18:02
many right then fat. And even like Chad and Steve
00:18:05
were like and Susan would kick you obviously runs it now.
00:18:08
I mean gets like the key intuitions wrong in the
00:18:12
beginning she was sort of like I mean I don't know if you say a
00:18:15
quite that but I mean she was like saying oh we need to sign
00:18:18
big. Heels and like, it wasn't
00:18:20
focusing on sort of the user generated content, right?
00:18:23
She was building Google video for Google mini.
00:18:25
Yeah. When of the acquisition, think
00:18:27
the calculus, which like just like to her like at the time
00:18:30
that was sort of like an seem like a smart guy.
00:18:32
He was right like oh we need premium stuff but it was wrong.
00:18:34
Is be, I mean yeah, big Google also.
00:18:37
YouTube also let like kept trying to do that for the next
00:18:40
six months. It wasn't until like 2 times 20
00:18:42
wasn't until 2014. When they're like, oh, these
00:18:45
like big influential stars in our platform might be Like where
00:18:48
we have commercial success, but they, you know, they've the
00:18:52
first Tom covered. Like, you know, the whole MCN
00:18:55
era was all about like that first funded Originals was like
00:18:57
we're going to get further and Shaq and Madonna and Tony Hawk.
00:19:00
And two YouTubers, we mentioned kind of the media companies and
00:19:03
they're very tenuous relationship with YouTube and
00:19:09
you brought up the Viacom lawsuit.
00:19:10
Why don't you explain the Viacom lawsuit and you know what it
00:19:13
meant and its role in kind of the development of the platform
00:19:17
icon comes, Sue's Google in March 2007, which is five months
00:19:22
after the YouTube acquisition. There's some reporting in the
00:19:25
book. You also check out there
00:19:26
interested that like I think Google walked in initially
00:19:28
bought with the acquisition, certainly didn't see this
00:19:31
coming, but like kind of knew something was going to happen.
00:19:33
And, and but just assume that they're going to have Inked a
00:19:36
deal with Viacom part of the reason that the Google, when the
00:19:39
Viacom cases because Google has even lawyers and had loan money
00:19:42
and like searches with just this constant oil, well, that gives
00:19:46
them a lot of money. But do I party is a good That
00:19:48
they like there was they found that by calm employees.
00:19:52
Like I CBS, I think, like, with secret, like using different
00:19:57
handles to upload the contents themselves.
00:20:00
The like Paramount Classics in the lawsuit, by comms like
00:20:03
YouTube needs to take us down this tired of material YouTube
00:20:05
finds out. It's actually like the marketing
00:20:07
team for CBS had uploaded. And so YouTube's offense is like
00:20:10
we can't according to the dmca like we can identify who has to
00:20:15
copy, who holds the copyright for material.
00:20:17
Huh. And No one can read.
00:20:19
They have this like three video tests which I talk about the
00:20:21
book. It's like they were just clicked
00:20:23
from the Stephen Colbert at the good Fox news clip and then like
00:20:27
one from a YouTuber and the like, which one do you take
00:20:30
which one like is copyrighted. And like, everyone posted
00:20:33
YouTubers one. Like that's totally fine but
00:20:35
turns out the other two were like one was like a fair use and
00:20:37
so it was fine. One was the company and uploaded
00:20:40
it like Comedy Central and uploaded it.
00:20:42
And the third one was the YouTuber was actually had a deal
00:20:44
with Carson Daly. So that one was copyrighted
00:20:47
material, right? So everyone got the answer.
00:20:48
Wrong. And this like helped YouTube win
00:20:51
the case you, I will go. Look at MTV.
00:20:54
Now I'm pretty sure I've been in the name of the show but like
00:20:57
the most popular, like, or the show on MTV is like, basically
00:21:00
to solve real, like a show that reviews play viral YouTube video
00:21:04
clips. I think yes, exactly.
00:21:05
Perfect example. The whale is how my come
00:21:09
certainly lost. Any of Viacom went out and
00:21:11
bought big con and like they clearly like lost that and
00:21:15
they've lost a lot of things are lost a lot of things.
00:21:18
But this was a but at the time like I you know was it a lot of
00:21:22
uncertainty about you to remember case where there's any
00:21:24
like you certainly the case with different correct Direction
00:21:26
YouTube that are gone Direction. There was I don't know who's
00:21:30
good for the world that YouTube one, right?
00:21:32
I mean, I don't know, most consumers would prefer.
00:21:37
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It provided centrality to it.
00:21:40
I mean, if you think about what internet video was prior to
00:21:44
YouTube, especially as far as the media companies were
00:21:46
concerned, you'd have to go to their it, you have to go to let
00:21:49
nbc.com/brita vo /. You know, The Tonight Show with
00:21:53
Jay Leno .html, I mean, it was a fucking mess.
00:21:56
The video players weren't very good.
00:21:58
There was obviously no social element to it, there's no
00:22:00
virality to it. It was the most anti-consumer
00:22:04
possibility you could imagine, of course, is very Hollywood,
00:22:07
right? It's in with YouTube being like,
00:22:10
a Search tool, fundamentally it's like, okay, you can find a
00:22:13
ton of videos. I think the other thing that was
00:22:15
interesting in terms of technology, that YouTube
00:22:19
successful relative to some of these other players was just the
00:22:21
idea that it was so much easier to embed, sort of The Flash
00:22:26
YouTube player in another site, which meant that it could go
00:22:30
viral on MySpace. It was just much more portable.
00:22:33
Oh my God, that the early. Yeah, I guess how much of
00:22:37
YouTube success is based on MySpace.
00:22:39
Would you like fascinating to me then sorry there's a huge
00:22:42
percent or right. I don't think I did that girly
00:22:44
on it. Like YouTube is like Road
00:22:45
Myspace virality. Like they just like right like
00:22:48
Most like YouTube videos and my MySpace comments and that was
00:22:51
something like Drew. Yeah.
00:22:52
And it's interesting again. How it didn't?
00:22:54
You know, like let's say, Twitter for example, there was a
00:22:57
time where you could not embed tweets into Facebook posts and
00:23:01
there was like, kind of strange non-compatible platform Wars,
00:23:04
whereas it seems like YouTube I could be wrong but almost never
00:23:07
had that problem. And I think that again speaks to
00:23:10
this idea that people don't think of YouTube as a social
00:23:13
network, or as a competitor. It's just like this utility,
00:23:16
exactly. Which is also why people I Think
00:23:18
seem to be less worried about, like regulating it and like the
00:23:22
public backlash seems much lower.
00:23:25
I mean, like YouTube has YouTube has been the only social media
00:23:29
platform that's really been right?
00:23:30
Like FTC find them in 2019 for children's privacy violation so
00:23:34
like it has been regulated. Sure.
00:23:36
I mean yeah, yeah it's not it's not a breakup, it's not concur
00:23:40
but like you know it seemed like Congress isn't going to do
00:23:42
anything so but that's the actually and it had like
00:23:45
substantial impacts on their business and Like how they how,
00:23:49
like, children's media works on on YouTube, but I'm happy to
00:23:52
talk about kid stuff to, it's like a central part of the book.
00:23:54
Yeah, let's talk about YouTube kids.
00:23:56
I remember that at the information was one of like the
00:23:58
big stories that we broke in, like, 2014 or so they were
00:24:02
working on this YouTube kids app, and why don't you explain
00:24:05
the origins of YouTube kids? And why, like, what was
00:24:08
happening, organically on the platform and why YouTube felt it
00:24:10
needed to like step in and build something specific for it.
00:24:14
Yeah, I mean, it was just an explosion of Kit material 1
00:24:17
2010. Lemons.
00:24:18
Are we? This is a bit then 2012 is when
00:24:21
they switched to to watch time. So they just switch from like
00:24:24
the key metric being views playbacks to how long people the
00:24:29
engagement and that had a number of significant consequences, the
00:24:33
central one being like the YouTube business really just
00:24:35
like, took off from there and then like kids content took off
00:24:38
there because like that stuff is engaging in, like, kids watch
00:24:41
for a long time. The iPad just came out, right?
00:24:43
And like there's Confluence of things that and the other day,
00:24:45
their main thing being that like we're talking about media,
00:24:48
Anything reluctant to go on YouTube?
00:24:49
Like kids media in particular, was like, super reluctant to go
00:24:52
on YouTube in part because of the restrictions, right?
00:24:57
Kapa children's online, privacy protection, privacy, protection
00:25:01
act. Thank you.
00:25:01
Yeah, and like Disney for instance, like, if I was really
00:25:05
you probably know this, but I thought it was interesting like
00:25:07
Disney was wreath like when the YouTube kids app first came.
00:25:11
So YouTube answer questions I guess there wasn't as big and
00:25:14
like toy unboxing became really popular.
00:25:16
There's like a lot of videos or long you That operated with the
00:25:19
like the sites for like people 13 and over like kids watch with
00:25:22
adult supervision. Like that's just how we're going
00:25:24
to operate, because it's like to legally tricky to try to do a
00:25:26
kid's version and then they're just became this like amount of
00:25:30
content that like sheer amount, they couldn't ignore.
00:25:32
And so there was a hundred walk was working.
00:25:35
He like kind of confused. He was like the main p.m. for
00:25:38
you to be left for health reasons.
00:25:39
Came back to work on this thing called YouTube for good, which
00:25:42
is like some more fish sort of like googly 20% project part of
00:25:46
what was like part of it was around like, We need to get
00:25:48
YouTube in the school's, right? Like this was there is and was
00:25:53
the time like the Khan Academy, right?
00:25:55
Like, YouTube math lessons like the green brother, like, there
00:25:58
was educational stuff on YouTube and it's more entertaining than
00:26:01
School, curriculum. Right.
00:26:02
Like there was a big blown opportunity there that it's a
00:26:05
separate story, but and that morphed into.
00:26:08
Okay, maybe we're going to switch to build an app for kids,
00:26:10
right? And I got to imagine part of it
00:26:13
is you know as a parent it's very enticing to just be To set
00:26:18
up YouTube in front of your kid and just have them watch stuff
00:26:22
for a while because you can put on Peppa Pig or some shit.
00:26:25
And you know, it'll just recommend the next one and you
00:26:28
can kind of go off and live your life.
00:26:31
But it is always scary as a parent because you never know if
00:26:34
the recommendation algorithm is going to fuck everything up and
00:26:37
after you watch Peppa Pig, it recommends, you know, like
00:26:40
videos of people in Texas, like exploding wild hogs, because
00:26:43
you're my favorite actor. Yeah, please.
00:26:46
So, like one of the rational like this debate about About why
00:26:49
YouTube kids. So you two kids was basically
00:26:51
like was not white label. There were, there were some sort
00:26:54
of selection criteria but it wasn't like a.
00:26:57
We're going to pick 40 channel near 100 channels or something
00:27:00
like. And and the rationale I think is
00:27:03
just Googled in general that I thought Google operates but the
00:27:07
other one was like, oh really popular video was like kids
00:27:10
watching trains planes. Take off for trains.
00:27:13
Take off right? Like I'm I don't know if your
00:27:16
kids do this but like this is Say I do this work but kids like
00:27:23
to watch this stuff and it's and I think this is like someone
00:27:26
who's high up, but YouTube is like well why would I restrict
00:27:28
that? Like, I'm not that it doesn't
00:27:30
seem like a thing that I would. If I'm if I'm actually going to
00:27:33
pick like children's programming, I'm probably not
00:27:35
going to think the like just pick footage of trains leaving
00:27:39
the station, right? But that the kids want to watch.
00:27:41
So like, why not put them in there, right?
00:27:43
And then the the clot like the predictable response or some
00:27:46
people was like, that's literally going to lead to Train
00:27:48
wrecks, the literal Trainwreck. So children watching train
00:27:51
wrecks. Uh-huh.
00:27:52
And so I thought that was great way of older.
00:27:54
I mean honestly it's like if you really want to amp up the
00:27:57
excitement here, it's like yeah, it's fine when the plane lands
00:28:00
but what if it does but I wait wait until I told Rex.
00:28:03
Yeah. Can you chart out how the you
00:28:06
like discoverability on YouTube has evolved over time, like, in
00:28:11
the beginning? There was sort of this front
00:28:13
page where people were trying to see what was cool and put it
00:28:15
there. I assume, you know, we get More
00:28:18
algorithmic. Now we have this sort of threat
00:28:21
of tick-tock like what this sort of human intervention on sort of
00:28:27
what is really being thrust in front of people, how does
00:28:30
YouTube's philosophy evolved over time.
00:28:35
Great question. Eric.
00:28:36
This was one of the I really like this is a part that I
00:28:38
wanted to hopefully capture in the book.
00:28:41
And is it like the tube was do sort of this like forgotten
00:28:44
history? And like alternate Pickers dream
00:28:46
which like YouTube this And basically like ons up to like oh
00:28:50
yeah we're going to like curate this thing right?
00:28:52
Hmm. As much as we can like
00:28:53
something. Yeah.
00:28:54
There that's your - happened. It would have been within the
00:28:56
sort of aligned with their principles that they were like,
00:28:59
yeah, we're we're a media company picking when people
00:29:02
should watch. So I think literally on that is
00:29:04
team the community managers that like, like they have manually
00:29:07
picked slots in the home page which was like in they were kind
00:29:11
of creative right things like they do this thing, they
00:29:13
rickrolled everybody like and they like found like Jack Conte
00:29:17
zipped. The founder patreon was like
00:29:19
discovered on YouTube by this team.
00:29:22
So you probably know the patron story, right?
00:29:23
He takes off on YouTube and then like two years later, he's like,
00:29:25
look, the economics are like terrible for me.
00:29:27
I'm gonna start patreon, right? I mean, I think if they like the
00:29:30
irony is that YouTube is since the past few years like with the
00:29:34
all the problems that were familiar with like kind of come
00:29:36
back to like half measures on this stuff, right?
00:29:38
Like so they have like a new shelf.
00:29:40
If you go up it's like, you know, anytime there's a breaking
00:29:42
news event or like they didn't surround covid vaccines.
00:29:45
It's like a shelf of videos from like Established news
00:29:48
organizations and health agencies, right?
00:29:50
And like I don't know how many people actually watch this
00:29:52
videos but I do like, you know, like there are a lot of people
00:29:56
that log that don't log in. You like visit a logged out
00:29:59
homepage. I like to by the way.
00:30:01
Every so often check out YouTubes homepage under
00:30:03
Incognito browser. It's just why what?
00:30:06
YouTube is pushing what it wants me to see.
00:30:08
Hey, it's just mr. Beast.
00:30:10
It's a lot of is really interesting.
00:30:11
That's fun. Yeah.
00:30:13
Well I'm curious where you at one point, there's a bunny suit
00:30:15
right now. You're right now.
00:30:17
Yeah. Right.
00:30:18
There's a there, one point it was like, you know, there's my
00:30:22
favorite YouTubers is matpat game theorist and he had like,
00:30:25
this was acting 2015, when it was like, Minecraft.
00:30:28
Was at one point like half to 75% of YouTube.
00:30:32
Oh yeah, mr. Beast.
00:30:34
Ed Sheeran tick-tocks people watch.
00:30:37
That's brewed. Oh my God.
00:30:39
I this is, I mean, this is I think Tara, to answer your
00:30:41
original question about the size of YouTube like it's just a,
00:30:43
it's a repository for everything in the space of like some of the
00:30:46
most popular YouTube. Now are like Tick-Tock reaction,
00:30:49
right, right, right. And I actually want to talk
00:30:51
about Tick-Tock in a second but I guess I'm seeing other stuff
00:30:54
here. You know, redacted.
00:30:55
Affidavit for a search of Trump's Mar-A-Lago.
00:30:57
Some CBS News they're trying to have some some real news
00:30:59
vegetables. I steer the conversation in the.
00:31:02
Can I my washer? Yeah.
00:31:04
It's like it's like I feel like this is like one of the podcasts
00:31:06
that I thought you guys we want to get into like do the grep
00:31:10
Google kremlinology for me. It's all it's because the floor
00:31:14
is yours Burger. Open to it, I think it's boring.
00:31:19
But okay, I'm here for you. I'm here for you more later.
00:31:24
What's going on in the Duma? Over that?
00:31:29
I think I'm glad you picked up on this set up like like they
00:31:33
they thought with a lot of the stuff girl that like yeah there
00:31:36
was a controversy couple of years ago where like some
00:31:39
YouTuber was like. Look at all these paedophile
00:31:42
comments. You have beneath videos of like
00:31:44
girls doing gymnastics, right, right?
00:31:46
And like a was like this big Freak out like that was like,
00:31:50
like, it's in the Viacom lawsuit.
00:31:52
There's like the YouTube manual from like 2007.
00:31:55
It's like telling their, like telling their moderators, how to
00:31:59
handle content. It's like, avoid playlists of
00:32:01
children for this reason. Like this was 12 years ago or 15
00:32:06
years ago, right? So, like I think part of the
00:32:09
problem for YouTube, that that's really interesting is like that.
00:32:12
He doesn't have a lot of institutional knowledge in part
00:32:14
because it spends a lot of turnover.
00:32:16
And when Susan was just YouTube, Neighbor.
00:32:18
It was a total surprise, she was moved to.
00:32:20
There's some new and interesting stuff about why she went there
00:32:23
in the book. Encourage people to read, people
00:32:25
thought she sure was gonna take over so seller.
00:32:28
Come on. Our was the not actual CEO and
00:32:31
learned only Susan's, the real, the only ever see of YouTube
00:32:35
Google but Saul are was the spp who ran Google Randy tube.
00:32:39
And this year was his number two and and Saul are effectively was
00:32:43
checked out starting late 2012 or 2013 and so everyone expected
00:32:46
Surety I think leaders this year.
00:32:50
What's he do now? He runs Koda.
00:32:52
Oh yeah, Buzzy sort of excel. You can read that story.
00:32:56
Yeah, I did. Yeah.
00:32:58
Are you just seeing that one up for me threesome?
00:33:01
No, Erica Erica. So many scoops.
00:33:03
He doesn't remember. All of the.
00:33:04
I've never even seen the product.
00:33:06
To me, it's just like, oh, big number.
00:33:07
I love big numbers and any, but I mean, yeah, and then like a
00:33:14
management team is basically leaves.
00:33:16
And then she had the unfortunate, Judy look.
00:33:17
First VP of engineering dies of cancer, but like most of them
00:33:22
left. They were like, super loyal to
00:33:24
shear and kind of pissed off about it.
00:33:26
They got like layered in, they like thought this was like,
00:33:28
here's his Google like there was this sort of interesting tension
00:33:31
between like YouTube has its own like, kind of like we're the,
00:33:34
like, like hustling JV team that never gets enough love from
00:33:38
Google. And then like these Google Big
00:33:39
Shots, come in and like, she brought in like no Neil Mahon
00:33:43
who's number two now and like she brought in like see your
00:33:47
People and to people, then I think that's like a real like
00:33:52
basically she joins she's quickly like going on maternity
00:33:55
leave and then like her entire staff, basically, an entire
00:33:58
staff. But like most of her leadership,
00:33:59
leave and I feel like, that's really where you are.
00:34:02
You talking to you like early late 2014?
00:34:05
Early 2015. And then like shit hits the fan
00:34:08
and to like I think a lot of institutional knowledge, I'm not
00:34:13
drawing an excuse for the company.
00:34:14
It's a terribly but like there was a lot of institutional
00:34:16
knowledge that Like just went out the door because there's
00:34:19
been like such a high turnover and looking around these key
00:34:22
moments like right before drum. So that was my girl Gremlin
00:34:25
ology. How is that what motivates
00:34:27
Susan? Like what what would you say
00:34:30
like is she's sort of like a get shit done for the Google higher
00:34:34
up. She's sort of like a True
00:34:36
Believer in store. The democratizing thing I like
00:34:39
is there any sort of like I don't know?
00:34:41
Does she have like a worldview that she's bringing to these
00:34:45
conversations or like do you have a So that the thing I will
00:34:48
add to that too. Is one of the things that has
00:34:51
fascinated me. You not as a YouTube reporter,
00:34:53
but just, as a media reporter watching this company is, she
00:34:56
seems fixated on making it as much of a media property as
00:35:00
possible pushing through things like the YouTube Cable Bundle,
00:35:04
which the world did not need it, all red, and, and YouTube red.
00:35:08
I mean, she in one sense, she's like an extension of this Google
00:35:11
founding arm and is like, very much a product of Silicon Valley
00:35:15
and then at the same time as like, pushing through these
00:35:16
like, very Old-school, bundles, and not necessary subscription
00:35:20
products that I find perplexing. So, yeah.
00:35:25
You know, we don't understand or what what's our deal and can
00:35:28
talk to someone in quitting a book.
00:35:30
I think anonymously, which is the fun part about writing
00:35:32
books. As you can do that as like I
00:35:34
work with her for like many years in.
00:35:35
The can't tell you at all what she thinks.
00:35:39
I mean, so one thing that she's been described as like fiery
00:35:43
she's like super willing to like lean trusting lieutenants and
00:35:46
like but then dictate I think some of the strategy Tom to your
00:35:49
is like a little bit of like Robert cancel and you'll Mohan
00:35:53
have a lot of power. Robert cancels their head of
00:35:55
business. Neil is our head of product.
00:35:57
Yeah. So sorry.
00:35:57
Like I think there's some this like, you know, it just I
00:35:59
remember talking to an engineer who walked and they were saying
00:36:02
like yeah you so much just like we got to like clearing like
00:36:05
you're tweaking the system to get watch time and they call it
00:36:08
a value. Watch time with this is like
00:36:09
really amorphous thing but then when they were running YouTube
00:36:11
Originals, as like, you do Originals was like a known drag
00:36:14
on wash times, people's didn't watch it.
00:36:16
This was like there. Netflix competitor.
00:36:18
They were trying to get the original series.
00:36:20
They had Cobra. Kai should like honest, they're
00:36:22
big success and then they had like PewDiePie, which was their
00:36:24
big mess, even that was a good drag on it.
00:36:27
Like didn't lead in water wash time because there's not a lot
00:36:29
of people that, like, the confusing thing for me to be on
00:36:32
this team, like Hank Green made this point, so I can't get
00:36:34
credit is like YouTube, has YouTube premium, which I pay
00:36:38
for? Because one I just was like,
00:36:40
grandfathered in from Google Play music but to like, I watch
00:36:43
a lot of YouTube and there's no ads and amazing and I just
00:36:46
thought like YouTube music is just The same library of
00:36:48
Spotify. Just, we got General and
00:36:50
basically, but did you never hear you to talk about this,
00:36:53
right? And like they have the world's
00:36:55
largest army of influencers, like, if they wanted to, and it
00:36:59
made Financial sense like they would have YouTubers telling the
00:37:02
audience, like, subscribe to premium.
00:37:05
But like clearly the margins on ads business is better than
00:37:08
premium. I think, I think there's like
00:37:11
General sense from from some people at the company.
00:37:14
Has your have to Tom that like Susan think it's like less.
00:37:17
Or what her marching orders and strategy is, you know, like more
00:37:21
recently, it's been like the four hours of responsibility,
00:37:24
right? Like that sort of basically like
00:37:26
don't regulate us like we're doing our job here.
00:37:29
Like don't leave us a like, she's basically like her job and
00:37:32
I think it'll be really interesting to see like if she
00:37:34
sticks around but like the next five years, when there'll be
00:37:36
less dealing with what sort of chaos her job.
00:37:39
Yes, SS chaos. Okay, and less chaos.
00:37:42
Didn't like an Advertiser boycott and like Trump.
00:37:45
Sure. Maybe Trump wins again.
00:37:47
But like different kind of pressure.
00:37:49
So I think like her job, it's like hard to see what her
00:37:51
priorities are. Because when she came on so much
00:37:54
of it was stereo the, by the amazing stories that I talk
00:37:58
about in the book. And then, like, I think so much
00:38:00
for priorities than, like, writing the ship, but I do think
00:38:03
there's this really. I like surprising, it was
00:38:06
tension between like, what Susan thinks that YouTube is, and what
00:38:08
it actually is like, and, and inside YouTube, they talked
00:38:11
about, like, the brand versus the platform, like, the brand
00:38:13
is, like fuzzy lovable. Like, you know, Like look at all
00:38:18
their marketing materials, right?
00:38:19
And the platform is the platform, and right?
00:38:21
I have no idea what the brand is.
00:38:22
I mean, there's a great point in the book where you talk about
00:38:25
the sort of marketing strategy meeting right in the beginning
00:38:29
where they're about align with Pewdiepie.
00:38:32
The word is come down from on high, like Susan said, okay.
00:38:36
We're gonna actually acknowledge this guy.
00:38:38
Who's like, what the biggest crater on our platform and then
00:38:42
like almost the exact same timing?
00:38:45
You know, this Mass shooter Sort of tells people to subscribe to
00:38:50
PewDiePie. I mean, I don't know.
00:38:53
Like who keeps saying the n word?
00:38:55
Hey guys, got a real n-word thing.
00:38:57
Yeah. And he definitely I don't think
00:38:59
he's on the past few years. No, where's cleaned up?
00:39:01
Right? Yeah, it's sort of he's is he
00:39:03
still a big, he's personality or what's this?
00:39:06
He still time, he's so bad. He's definitely stuff.
00:39:08
We cleaned up. He's like he stayed.
00:39:11
He's like, stay below the radar. I think.
00:39:14
I mean, I think he still draws. I'm like, millions of views per
00:39:16
video. While all the PewDiePie army
00:39:18
people mr. Mr. Beast is effectively, so
00:39:20
plan on him as like, who's a much more benign?
00:39:23
Right safer. He's safer.
00:39:25
Oh my God. Yeah, you too mister.
00:39:27
I mean, I like I'm kind of regret, not putting a lot of mr.
00:39:30
B stuff in there but I can't like mr.
00:39:31
Bean is fascinating to me. I care about the internal
00:39:34
politics to the extent. I want understand like you know
00:39:37
why YouTube wasn't more worried about the rise of sort of this
00:39:43
like coded sort of fascist. All right thing that they were
00:39:47
Ruling when it seems like, especially like the YouTube
00:39:50
world is like sort of Normie Libs situation.
00:39:54
So I don't I'm like, oh, where they, it's a super into like
00:39:57
Freedom. Why did this happen?
00:39:59
Like why why I like, yeah. I'm not saying sensor everybody
00:40:02
I'm saying but certainly don't tip the thumb in terms of
00:40:05
getting people towards this sort of like, wink, wink 4chan, sort
00:40:09
of sensibility. I wrote the book to be a time,
00:40:12
very dark, the comedic because I find that like story to be
00:40:16
pretty hilarious, The sense of like this, Google is like the
00:40:19
quintessential like liberal values and they have this
00:40:23
certainly like during the Obama hair out like company.
00:40:25
The only major platform run by a woman they've come out and there
00:40:29
might be more like their maternal presentations.
00:40:31
I would, we should learn need more and gender Equity, because
00:40:34
we have become female CEO. They haven't like she's not
00:40:37
Cheryl, like they haven't done that.
00:40:38
I think that's, that's the answer to some of the Season,
00:40:40
like she's a great Banks just you can private person.
00:40:42
So like button, vicious enough to want to run this thing.
00:40:45
I mean like that was a question that people kept asking me And I
00:40:47
don't have an answer is why this you still want to do this job?
00:40:50
Look she has enough money. It's just another political they
00:40:52
do. You agree with my assessment
00:40:54
that they were asleep at the wheel on cert like now now
00:40:57
they're doing it or it's just so I think there was soup with the
00:41:00
wheel. I think there was just not like
00:41:02
someone described it to me, it's like their world.
00:41:04
Like it's not, you know, they didn't like you don't in
00:41:07
Atherton like that. Again, you don't run into like
00:41:11
this, like that's ever brand of conservatism, right?
00:41:13
Like it was, I think it was buried in the book, sorry, just
00:41:15
a fight with you a little bit like, In the book.
00:41:18
Like you're very clear that you know, the marketing people are
00:41:21
super exposed to why bats, the bad stuff that's happening.
00:41:25
Like there are people YouTube paid to be very aware.
00:41:28
They you say like, oh they would literally make sure whatever.
00:41:32
Innocuous tweet, they're putting out, doesn't invoke the, like,
00:41:35
terrible thing on YouTube of the day.
00:41:37
So the company is monitoring this stuff, right?
00:41:40
How many should know. But, yes, but that all that, all
00:41:43
those are like to, like, avoid, like, they're there.
00:41:47
Tragic Heroes like avoid any problem, right?
00:41:49
Avoid brand like a boy and like I think so, too.
00:41:53
I think some of it is like this is around regulatory issues like
00:41:57
we and they, like, they were aware of the conservative bias,
00:42:00
complaints coming around. And I think there was like, a
00:42:02
execs from that loud. I think people need to believe
00:42:04
the same thing to like are our user base is not like us like
00:42:08
you know it's just like Facebook cuz I think those are in this
00:42:11
but I think it's the same thing at Google.
00:42:12
Like okay we are like we were in Liberal bubble like after the
00:42:15
Breitbart got that video from the Sixteen election at Google
00:42:18
which I think is really revealing a fascinating and like
00:42:20
Sundar pichai Google CEOs, like, hmm.
00:42:23
Like I need to look at the data more, but like, clearly, like
00:42:26
we're not feeding people, the right information there was this
00:42:28
really like. And I think even after 2020,
00:42:30
people are like, wow, like the world is not like us.
00:42:34
Like, you know, who this, there's a whole world out there
00:42:37
who use our products that are not like us.
00:42:40
And so, therefore, we need to be like, we, like, and I peep is
00:42:44
not the perfect simple. Like Steven Crowder the
00:42:46
conservative YouTube stars are much better, conical example,
00:42:50
like Steven Crowder is very popular, like are we really
00:42:53
composing our liberal values, you know, I think there it just
00:42:56
it's an extension of the the same conversation.
00:42:59
They had when YouTube had its first controversy of the broad.
00:43:02
Like are we proposing American values on Thailand and like when
00:43:07
we're doing contact moderation, decisions Global.
00:43:10
So I think that's is true. It's I've seen your face Erica.
00:43:13
Do like they it's a little bit of a.
00:43:15
I mean my response would be number one, not to act.
00:43:17
Their bias is towards not like Google itself.
00:43:21
Like the search in a certain way is like a truth surfacing
00:43:24
machine. Like this is a company that is
00:43:27
knows that it needs to deliver you.
00:43:28
Actual facts not just popular links then they run a video site
00:43:32
in there like fuck it. Like let's just like I mean and
00:43:36
now you're saying some K. Now they have news things on the
00:43:39
homepage and stuff that mr. Beast is their top, but like it
00:43:42
seems so late. Like, I feel like the tech class
00:43:45
hates on a reporter's, but Feels like they're embracing the sort
00:43:48
of, like, what are you doing? Which we were saying, like a
00:43:50
decade ago, as you know, it's like, what year is this like and
00:43:54
Crowder? By the way, Crowder is such a
00:43:56
fascinating example for you to bring up Mark because I know
00:43:59
there was the issue where he was, you know, this YouTube
00:44:03
personality, Carlos Massa, who is kind of a journalist had put
00:44:06
together a compilation of all the times.
00:44:08
That Steven Crowder had attacked him for being gay and I can tell
00:44:11
you why I decided not to put this in length.
00:44:13
In my booktube though, I'm deaf, I don't wanna hear that.
00:44:15
But but so, My recollection of that whole episode was that he
00:44:19
had this very viral video showing all the times that
00:44:21
Crowder had attacked him trying to get this guy kicked off of
00:44:25
YouTube at the very least, or or demonetised and YouTube's
00:44:27
response to this was like we are aware of YouTube on YouTube
00:44:31
criticism and attacks. We want to make sure that we do
00:44:34
everything. We it like they didn't make it
00:44:35
specific to crowd or they'd make it specific to our obeah.
00:44:38
They didn't make it specific to the politics here.
00:44:40
There were just like this seems like it's an internee, seen
00:44:42
YouTuber fight. We're going to do what we can to
00:44:45
make sure everyone's nice to each other they completely.
00:44:47
Avoid the central part of the issue and no one seems happy
00:44:49
conserves. They're still mad at YouTube.
00:44:51
Liberals feel like they're, you know, being pussies and yeah.
00:44:54
And you know, it's just like a classic Silicon Valley, ball
00:44:57
kick, or you know what I mean by kicking the can and assuming
00:45:01
that they've solved the problem. Yes, I think it was it was a
00:45:04
great example of them, like something that happens,
00:45:06
consistently running like make a decision but ends up, like,
00:45:09
feeling that one, but why did you keep it out?
00:45:10
Or what did you decide what I mean in part in?
00:45:13
Like it was just like to see both of them so clearly but
00:45:16
there's a lot of confusing and over Epic storyline, which is
00:45:18
parties like the captured, just like how chaotic the world of
00:45:21
the and multifaceted the world of YouTube is at some point.
00:45:24
It was like, yeah, this is came in thinking like page 350 or
00:45:28
something. Is like it has like a little
00:45:29
like a readers to introduce these like Skyline.
00:45:32
I thought you meant there was some like I the story isn't what
00:45:35
you believe, right? Turned out.
00:45:37
They were all lies Crowder's actually a good guy.
00:45:40
Yeah, I mean I do think like I really like if you ever tried to
00:45:43
write a long book. Yeah, m.
00:45:47
But I also like I think you certainly like YouTube's calm
00:45:50
seemed I think one time at a point at right?
00:45:54
This is fine for me to share but like was like I'm not sure who
00:45:56
behave more like who bothers us more, right?
00:45:58
Like redder than as I think they're like what's wrong with
00:46:01
Mazda? I think just a way to tactics
00:46:04
that he did it, I think really and he also have like I mean
00:46:06
he's stood on it and he's like criticizes YouTube but just like
00:46:09
that's like it's really leans in like YouTube.
00:46:12
Has this tolerance for like creators like being willing to
00:46:14
criticize them up to a certain point.
00:46:17
I think and I think that was just like a nausea and headache,
00:46:20
but like that. So they don't know.
00:46:21
They were others. The more, the like, blatantly
00:46:23
homophobic arch-conservative, right.
00:46:25
Goes on campuses, right? Attacking gay people and like
00:46:29
trans people are the guy who were the one that criticizes
00:46:31
them in Chrome. I mean, like he describes no
00:46:34
trust in these people whatsoever.
00:46:36
Like so Crowder like has like, you know, like Ted Cruz.
00:46:40
Come like, he's like, he's like, you could Zucker ears to hear,
00:46:42
Let me let his accountable. Like the YouTube people are like
00:46:47
cow. Words, right?
00:46:47
Like if it also, Crowder is such a fucking loser, too.
00:46:51
Like, why would you be afraid? Sorry, let's let Mark respond.
00:46:53
We settle. I, I think Riders which is
00:46:56
interesting and like, there's a whole series of YouTubers that
00:46:59
are fascinating because YouTube is like built fundamentally as a
00:47:02
product, the idea is like you can be on par with like TV,
00:47:06
right? That's the selling pitch like
00:47:07
thing about the commercial like they are interested in selling
00:47:09
advertisers. I'm like this is better than TB.
00:47:13
And so like they built this system where like, oh you can be
00:47:16
like a TV anchor. ER, and like have your own news
00:47:18
show. And then like Crowder's, like,
00:47:20
oh I mean listen to clip the he was recently taken suspended
00:47:23
from you to because he had Carrie Carrie leak, right?
00:47:25
Who's the like sort of election denying mayor's owner should be
00:47:29
running for office in Arizona and said, like the 2014 election
00:47:32
was rigged like ice ears. By my understanding is like if
00:47:35
she went on Fox News and said that, I doubt you to take the
00:47:38
right on YouTube. Now with YouTube says, we're
00:47:40
YouTube says, is like you have, you know, like this is like
00:47:43
fastening. I've no idea how they actually
00:47:44
had moderate this and but like, You know, these hips like well
00:47:48
on a new show like you're going to be ticked expectation to like
00:47:51
bring up the other side. So like well some people say
00:47:54
that it wasn't stolen retina Kreider literally gives her an
00:47:57
Applause during the video when it was it.
00:48:00
Yeah it seems like they're now that there's a Democratic
00:48:03
president like they're like oh the power has shifted so wheel.
00:48:06
Yeah I mean but they're also looking you like they're
00:48:08
probably knowing that the like the Congress has to make this
00:48:11
gonna flip. So I think on your
00:48:13
accountability I think you're absolutely right.
00:48:15
I wouldn't not going to Echo your cow.
00:48:17
Words saying that I did I say like you know this is a company
00:48:20
with to remind people like that is controlled by two retired.
00:48:23
Guys who like haven't made any decisions in years and then
00:48:28
every time Sundar is called before Congress like YouTube
00:48:30
barely comes up because there's so many other common, right?
00:48:32
And don't they release less data than Facebook about stuff,
00:48:35
right? I mean generally there's this
00:48:37
summer they're putting out. I mean part of it is just
00:48:39
structural like video is harder to mind and text I mean it and
00:48:44
to be fair the I did find it a little interesting.
00:48:47
Seeing you know, you you lead with the what the shooting but
00:48:51
like, yeah, it appears first on Facebook video, you know, I mean
00:48:55
it also gets propagated on YouTube but you know you know
00:48:58
all these volumes are so interconnected that.
00:49:00
Yes let me let me land on something that I think is simply
00:49:03
go back to the moderation problems.
00:49:05
Like so much, you know. YouTube is this thing called
00:49:08
whirling content. They're like these videos of
00:49:10
don't break our rules but we're going to wear like the we think
00:49:12
that they're trouble like ran up to them enough and we're not
00:49:15
going to like promote animal. Recommendation.
00:49:17
And so like it was, you know, that was before June 6th.
00:49:21
It was like any videos that for Trump or Trump supporters that
00:49:25
was like calling the question. The election were to they'll
00:49:27
YouTube's response was like we're not we're not like our
00:49:30
system is like we're not putting in search for not putting the
00:49:32
recommendations. You like really have to like go
00:49:35
out of your way to find these things, right?
00:49:37
And that's like a very googley. Like it's like the equivalent of
00:49:40
like putting it on page 12 and the Google's.
00:49:41
Right? No one makes sense.
00:49:43
Yeah, it makes total sense. But then like they and then you
00:49:46
looked at like Facebook's Report is to put out those transparency
00:49:49
report. It's like number one website on
00:49:51
Facebook by far of like youtube.com rate like and most
00:49:54
of its benign, but like, and YouTube will like have these.
00:49:57
These hilarious press conference room are like some of these
00:49:59
videos like went viral on like a certain social network
00:50:02
interesting. This this is funny wrinkle the
00:50:05
companies don't coordinate. As far as I mean like I think
00:50:08
they might coordinate but like the reason they don't coordinate
00:50:10
just because like they're under antitrust investigation.
00:50:13
Like imagine like cries of collision, if like the biggest
00:50:16
tech companies in the world. For coordinating around
00:50:18
misinformation. I was gonna say one more thing
00:50:20
and then we can go to tick. Tock, is that all right?
00:50:22
Yeah. Because you because we are
00:50:23
talking about, you know, the media's coverage of YouTube and
00:50:27
its various scandals. You have a chapter in your book,
00:50:29
about Elsa gate, which if my summary of Elsa gate is that
00:50:34
this was people uploading videos of often dudes dressed up as
00:50:38
Elsa from Frozen doing kind of bizarre.
00:50:41
Inexplicable things hanging out with children or just sort of
00:50:45
like wandering around on set. There became a whole Firestorm
00:50:48
controversy around Elsa gate, because there was this idea that
00:50:53
they were grooming children. The people that were uploading
00:50:55
these videos, which all seem to be very SEO optimized, you know,
00:50:58
gaming the systems that you could get as many views as
00:51:01
possible. We're part of a nefarious,
00:51:03
plots, you can Vince children to, like, I don't know.
00:51:06
Make themselves prey for predators and, you know, to me,
00:51:11
looking back on this whole episode, it seemed like
00:51:13
hysteria. It was very hard to prove
00:51:16
anything concrete. About it but I think it also in
00:51:18
my opinion fed a lot of the same things that you see the
00:51:22
right-wing talking about. Now when it comes to grooming
00:51:25
and and claiming that you know, having a teacher that's a gay or
00:51:28
trans is secretly going to turn your child into, you know, child
00:51:32
porn bait as someone who covered it during the time.
00:51:34
And as you read in your book, I mean, how do you reflect on lc8?
00:51:37
Simple question to end. Yeah, I mean I thought like
00:51:44
there's a really interesting interview.
00:51:45
I didn't get a lot of bit like I You get on the phone with Greg
00:51:48
Chisholm who ran this side Channel called toy freaks was.
00:51:51
Look at the, at the center of the attention and it became this
00:51:53
wildly popular show our Channel called toy Freaks, and which he
00:51:57
had his two daughters and like, got this of controversy because
00:52:00
he didn't, like he would play Clank Frank's in his daughters
00:52:02
and then some clips, like there was one that like, his daughter
00:52:05
was like, pulling a teeth and there's a lot of blood.
00:52:07
And like, from the video stills, it looked like she was she was
00:52:10
screaming with blood if you go back and watch the video, it's
00:52:13
like you know, he's filming his daughter like having a like a
00:52:17
Money truth issue. It's really wanted to, like,
00:52:19
weird to film your daughter and upload that amount like a right
00:52:22
for millions, millions of people, but like, you know, you
00:52:24
two built this tool, the incentivizes that right?
00:52:26
So, but, like, the actual video, if you'd like, then calms her
00:52:30
down and like tells her everything like seem to be like,
00:52:32
doing things that like this, like a actually good parenting,
00:52:35
right? So but they went.
00:52:36
So I think it is defense like these things were taken out of
00:52:38
context and sense of like a screenshot of that and then like
00:52:41
he actually like there were just so many videos that like
00:52:44
replicated his condo because they were so popular.
00:52:46
So So yes, Tom I think this was wrapped into and I didn't get us
00:52:53
all in the book necessarily but you're totally right and sense
00:52:55
of like it's become this. This like right-wing bludgeon
00:52:58
here that bad and whatever stand like a complicated world of like
00:53:05
what's the word to use for Bruner meant like grooming
00:53:08
Jonah, thank you. Yeah, at the same time like
00:53:11
that. That issue was less.
00:53:14
Yes, it got a lot of attention in the media and like James
00:53:16
Brown. Vidal wrote this medium, post it
00:53:18
like exploded, but that I that was less about, I think like in
00:53:23
Elsa, gate less about sort of the phenomenon of like people
00:53:26
dressing up, like kids or shooting.
00:53:28
Can the videos and that was more about like this automated where
00:53:31
I'm just a Content meal about that, like making things for
00:53:34
kids, making them by machines like irresponsible sort of like
00:53:38
called like Industrials nightmare production, right?
00:53:40
The other thing is look like to remember it.
00:53:42
A lot of these like YouTube does respond to Media, YouTube
00:53:44
responds to advertisers, and that crisis was because an
00:53:46
average Like an ad agency once YouTube and was like, what the
00:53:49
hell is this video that I'm paying like, $20 cpms for right
00:53:53
up? Like a kid in a bathing suit and
00:53:55
that's what's it like. So I think like, I will push
00:53:59
back and defend our fourth estate a little bit.
00:54:01
Like, yes, things were things were hysterical, but I think
00:54:05
something that maybe was lost and and that like to like that,
00:54:09
Elsa gate was the thing that forced you to make its most
00:54:12
significant change and the monetization thing and then
00:54:14
we'll get to tick. Tock is so important for all of
00:54:16
us because on the one hand, Hand.
00:54:18
I mean, the modernization on the fact that creators get paid a
00:54:22
significant share of AD. Revenue is part of the genius of
00:54:26
YouTube and parts of what gets all these craters to do stuff.
00:54:29
But then it should give YouTube far more culpability, because
00:54:33
they are creating the financial incentive for these people to do
00:54:35
Insane hacks of the human brain distributed by the Google
00:54:39
algorithm paid for by Google. It's like, it's like the you're
00:54:43
creating this monster, you're paying them to do it like there.
00:54:47
Totally culpable for it. It's not just sort of like
00:54:49
people do weird shit. It's like, people do weird shit
00:54:51
when they're chasing add money from you.
00:54:54
But anyway, so that's YouTube has.
00:54:56
This crater fund it's good in that creators can make a lot of
00:54:59
money. It's bad and that it distorts
00:55:01
human behavior and weird ways Tick-Tock is seems to be like
00:55:05
paying creators way less but then they just have such a good
00:55:09
distribution mechanism. That's even more.
00:55:11
Like, whatever the human mind desires, we will feed it to you.
00:55:15
I don't know where where How does YouTube respond to tick,
00:55:18
tock, or where do you see all this going?
00:55:20
I mean never use some time on your YouTube app recently, like
00:55:24
right there, where they're much more vertical videos.
00:55:25
I, we were just looking on ink. They like, yeah, they want you
00:55:29
to watch George like, and they're going to flip the switch
00:55:31
and the coming weeks, months on, monetization for shorts, and
00:55:35
there's an expectation there that like, they'll compete on
00:55:37
sort of, the pain creators again, Yak, which is she's, I
00:55:40
think they have it, like, for minor, send them figured, I
00:55:42
mean, Hank, Green, or you mentioned earlier has been huge
00:55:44
on. Yes.
00:55:45
Yeah. And like I think there's So,
00:55:48
Hank is in the book and people that aren't should make, but I
00:55:51
think they'll feel like the other thing that I find really
00:55:52
interesting in the book is that YouTube did consider sort of the
00:55:56
like a big did consider The Tick-Tock model.
00:55:59
Like they wanted to revamp their entire payment system around in
00:56:02
2017 2018 and paid based on engagement.
00:56:06
And now, it seems like they said they're going to do with shorts
00:56:08
is not so beautiful. If that kind of thing, please
00:56:10
don't be some engagement from a creative fun to Hank Green
00:56:13
aside. Like, you know that like the
00:56:15
more craters you get there, the smaller teach mouth.
00:56:17
Gets right. Like, that's right.
00:56:18
So we'll just the share relative to the revenue.
00:56:20
Tick-Tock is generating is clearly too small.
00:56:22
It's not just the mechanism. It's also right?
00:56:24
Just like the share of Revenue. Yeah, and YouTube sites like
00:56:27
YouTube will have, it's like unclear how they're going to
00:56:29
give like is if the ad comes after my short do I get the
00:56:33
credit or is it come before my short?
00:56:35
Like, you know, I mean like that's something they haven't
00:56:37
solved yet. As far as like, which Creator
00:56:39
gets the money from Jazz and and then like is it's like will
00:56:43
anyway? So that's I think they're
00:56:46
leaning in All in, I'm sure it's I think Tick-Tock is really like
00:56:50
to talk he's their first sort of to two-sided competition where
00:56:53
it's both competing for eyeballs and then or creators.
00:56:57
Hmm. I know you like a meaningful way
00:57:00
and we've always talked about how histograms are bending over
00:57:02
backwards to compete with with YouTube.
00:57:05
I do Tick-Tock and YouTube's to like, I think is savvier and has
00:57:09
less problems than Facebook and so can the bit more like
00:57:14
judicious and its decision decisions, but But you know it
00:57:17
is like a they totally abandoned strategy to totally pivoted to
00:57:21
shorts and like a few minutes and a few years and it's so like
00:57:25
the irony of like going back in early you to where it was like
00:57:28
the big YouTube hits were like mystery guitar man.
00:57:31
Making a one-minute video, right.
00:57:32
Like and then YouTube trained us all to watch like 12 to 20
00:57:37
minute videos and now like shorts are back in.
00:57:39
I mean there was this in really delicious tweet that YouTube
00:57:43
deleted or it was like making fun of a creator for posting one
00:57:46
video. As an actor, I was like the
00:57:48
best, right? I mean, if you talk to the kids
00:57:50
today, they'll call YouTube long form, which is like the ultimate
00:57:53
irony and, and maybe perfect encapsulation of where our
00:57:57
attention span has devolved as a species.
00:58:00
And you see people will say like, oh well, what Tick-Tock
00:58:03
figured out is like online like it's easier to post a tick tock
00:58:06
and the vine like mine to this first.
00:58:08
It's easier to post like YouTube at least creates incentives were
00:58:12
like, you don't just like, shoot a quick photo on your phone and
00:58:16
then upload it to YouTube. Right because it gives any
00:58:18
discoverability is a big issue there, like I could do that and
00:58:21
then no one's going to watch it, right?
00:58:22
Like I could post a bunch of videos of like I'm sure you post
00:58:25
this video on YouTube and like, you know, friends.
00:58:27
We're like Tick-Tock, you, like, you can hit viral, really.
00:58:31
You know what? It sounds to me, identical too
00:58:34
early to one like someone could come out of nowhere, like, Jack
00:58:37
on, they can come to YouTube. Let's wrap this up, but YouTube
00:58:41
has been like, if you subscribe on YouTube, you reach your
00:58:46
followers. Right?
00:58:47
In a way that Tick-Tock there's much less like sort of a vanity,
00:58:53
right? I mean, it took talk is
00:58:54
basically the discoverability algorithm made ultimately more
00:59:00
powerful, like infinitely more powerful.
00:59:02
Right there is like a subscribe, you know, intent element of
00:59:05
YouTube baked into it whereas Tick-Tock is like, let the
00:59:08
robots. Tell you what you want to see?
00:59:09
Yes, yes. I mean, I would think that.
00:59:15
Yeah, maybe you tips like I'm sure I'm sure they're trying to
00:59:17
figure out a way to do that like that you know with like one
00:59:19
thing they're exceptionally good at is getting like people to
00:59:22
keep watching, right? Like I don't doubt Google's
00:59:25
ability to do that, I don't doubt their ability to monetize,
00:59:28
but I doubt they're building to see unintended consequences
00:59:30
there are enclosing Bergen. Can you can you pull up
00:59:32
youtube.com right now and tell us what the algorithm is
00:59:35
recommending to you? We infer things to be?
00:59:38
Yeah, this is me, my embarrassing.
00:59:40
Can we infer things about who you are based on what the algo?
00:59:42
Well this is my like I don't think I've shared with either of
00:59:44
you my like recent fixations. When I grew up I I was obsessed
00:59:48
with basketball on it that really in the NBA.
00:59:51
So I just like watch basketball clips like 90s NBA highlights or
00:59:55
what you're talking about. A more recent more recent what
00:59:58
was coming out like and they I'm on fire.
01:00:00
I do like Key and Peele. There's like a Steph Curry clip.
01:00:03
There's a Spurs played beautiful game.
01:00:07
Oh my God. Peter teal America's most
01:00:09
dangerous, billionaire investor, mockumentary that's like do some
01:00:13
work. Yeah.
01:00:14
Think about tear some lame workout videos.
01:00:17
We're gonna core is Philipp. Frank was saying, YouTube is
01:00:20
racist where the internet is furious.
01:00:22
After Corey extension Phil DeFranco, it's that you guys
01:00:26
should try again Franco on your show.
01:00:27
Yeah. I liked it.
01:00:29
I mean it's been years but so I think is good at what he's like
01:00:33
my only subscription option and then I was trying to get my wife
01:00:38
to one Better Call Saul. So there's a lot of like Better
01:00:41
Call Saul content is watch Recaps.
01:00:44
I don't know. All it all seems pretty pretty
01:00:45
clean burgundy sound? Guy is NBA.
01:00:48
He likes his Fitness, he likes, you know, Prestige.
01:00:51
He's admitting he's omitting all the Elsa videos.
01:00:54
Yeah, it's about everything. I'm admitting all the, all the
01:00:57
weird, right? It just like more, like dank
01:00:59
meme reviews and prouder attacks.
01:01:02
You know, lib college student, do some of the things, some of
01:01:05
that in life, you know, my friends.
01:01:07
I didn't fix the on your on your few tube if you anyway Mark,
01:01:13
thanks so much for joining the book as a reminder is called
01:01:16
like comment subscribe. Describe inside YouTube's
01:01:18
chaotic rise to World Domination.
01:01:20
It's an excellent read to All Tech reporters and people who
01:01:24
want to know more about the world that YouTube is created.
01:01:27
So highly recommended. Thanks so much for joining me.
01:01:30
Thank you, we've gotta run a Bloomberg people.
01:01:33
So nice. Nice to see a former desks
01:01:36
neighbor as we're fun. Thanks for letting us talk about
01:01:38
Google kremlinology Arc. Goodbye.
01:01:53
Goodbye. Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye.
01:01:56
Goodbye.