Our regular special guest, Katie Benner, recently sunk her teeth into the intersection of an old passion and a new one: technology industry ignominy and, her current beat at the New York Times, the U.S. Justice Department. Benner talks me through the arrest of Ilya Lichtenstein and Heather Morgan. The duo were accused by the Justice Department of laundering money from the 2016 Bitfinex robbery.
The arrest shows the federal government’s increasing sophistication when it comes to crypto currencies. But there are plenty of open questions about whether Lichtenstein and Morgan had the knowhow to pull off this historic heist. Morgan was a Forbes contributor who once wrote a column about protecting businesses from cybercriminals. She raps under the moniker Razzlekahn.
Benner and I also talk about the apparent Chinese hack of the Wall Street Journal, Katie Notopoulos reporting on the identities of the creators of Bored Ape Yacht Club, and the latest technology meme — Wordcels and shape rotators.
Get full access to Newcomer at www.newcomer.co/subscribe
00:00:05
Welcome. So what is Eric?
00:00:14
Hey, I'll see good. This is I feel like the only
00:00:18
configuration of host we haven't done any when Tom had a very
00:00:25
loose episode. 01 am Like got out for loose episode while I
00:00:33
was on vacation while ago and then Tom and I have done some
00:00:38
episodes and obviously the three of us and now we have we have
00:00:42
our episode together. Yeah finally.
00:00:45
Well this is great because I think that we are the like when
00:00:48
the three of us are together. We're obviously the two who are
00:00:51
most antagonistic toward one another, which is also, totally.
00:00:55
And representative of her actual relationship because of the
00:00:58
three of us like you. And I probably, See the world
00:01:00
far more awesome. Yeah, I don't normally mom real
00:01:03
world. It's us bullying.
00:01:04
Tom it's like Tom. Why, like why haven't you set up
00:01:08
your life to like maximize for hallucinogenic experiences?
00:01:13
But on this show I guess I end up playing the tech Optimist in
00:01:17
your the yeah. I was gonna say I don't think
00:01:18
I'm a pessimist actually. I just feel like you're not.
00:01:21
You're not like taking the marching orders from what text
00:01:24
talking about. So it's sort of your more, like,
00:01:28
independent of it. Yeah.
00:01:29
I'm Kind of like I'm kind of like a screening function for
00:01:33
the podcast like if it's actually made it to my
00:01:35
Consciousness it means that the whole world is actually heard of
00:01:38
it and it hasn't it just hasn't broken through.
00:01:41
He's like, oh our people, you know, trying to arrest someone
00:01:44
over. This is the justice department
00:01:46
worried about it. That's what and thankfully this
00:01:50
week you've been thankfully, we're going to talk about you.
00:01:55
Tom, had a great story on, go puff, that went sort.
00:02:00
Many Tech viral, he reported that go puff workers were
00:02:04
ordering Groceries on instacart to fill the gaps.
00:02:08
So it's, you know, tech companies, cannibalizing other
00:02:11
tech companies. But when I think so much about
00:02:14
that story is that was so, it was like the classic startup
00:02:18
story, right? And everybody played their role.
00:02:20
So startup has to cut some corners and hide the fact that
00:02:24
it's not quite ready. For Primetime startup gets
00:02:27
caught by a tech reporter startups.
00:02:29
Sort of like luminary startup figures, I guess it's hard to
00:02:32
put it all respond with, this is why the media is so mean what a
00:02:39
meal, Michael somebody teased him like, oh, like you're not an
00:02:47
expert at and you know, setting tons of money on fire.
00:02:50
For upside down, I didn't like it but it was I did chuckle
00:02:56
though. I mean, you know, they're there.
00:02:59
I mean, There could be a logic to go puff using in Sakura.
00:03:02
I mean, delivering a good customer experience is is the
00:03:06
most important. I mean, it's just it's been
00:03:09
amazing how much money investors are willing to let these
00:03:12
companies lose to get sort of the flywheel.
00:03:15
I mean there's always that argument which is you have to
00:03:17
get people to use this product as soon as possible.
00:03:20
And if the only way to deliver the kind of experience you're
00:03:22
promising is to order things from insta conquer.
00:03:26
Then so be it like will catch up and sometimes companies Please
00:03:30
do catch up right, sometimes it out.
00:03:33
Well do you want to set up where you've actually what oh did you
00:03:36
have another even the to the to my to my least favorite and most
00:03:41
favorite tech story. So I need to I need to wait at
00:03:44
least favorite being the hack of the Wall Street Journal, no
00:03:47
bueno, very much, very much caused, Great anxiety, amongst
00:03:52
all reporters who've ever written anything about China,
00:03:54
terrible and then most favored the Bitcoin money laundering
00:03:59
couple. Which includes one half of a
00:04:02
couple. Being a self-described comedic
00:04:03
rapper, I don't know Eric. Wait, which one did you want?
00:04:06
I think we should talk about the more fun one first and then the
00:04:12
true diehards. Can listen to your takes on
00:04:15
media vulnerability which is also interesting but that's
00:04:19
really just for report that's her first.
00:04:22
You know, I realize that in why you never could have sources
00:04:25
name and your Google doc. Right.
00:04:27
So what was so great is um, When the when the press release hit
00:04:31
everyone's inbox, right? We all get this, like the
00:04:34
justice department. We making a big announcement
00:04:35
today and it was on crypto and I think that they're sort of a
00:04:41
it's hard to get excited over a crypto announcement from the
00:04:45
justice department because they basically are very similar at
00:04:48
this point. Something bad happened.
00:04:50
Often on the dark web and the Justice Department's able to use
00:04:54
the blockchain to trace the money back to either a person
00:04:59
who perpetrated the crime or personally benefited from it
00:05:01
because even though, especially Bitcoin, but cryptocurrencies
00:05:05
once marketed, as if you use this, you will evade governments
00:05:09
and nobody will find you the very Margie behind the
00:05:12
blockchain, which is hey, hey, hey Ledger, a permanent Ledger
00:05:16
is something that indeed law. Enforcement has figured out how
00:05:19
to use to trace to trace money. Great, the propaganda around
00:05:22
Bitcoin is changed 100% used. Absolutely.
00:05:25
Oh, it's Anonymous and now it's like, oh well there's this nice
00:05:28
record, so it's harder to commit crime.
00:05:31
It's it's like ours that the same people who were spinning
00:05:34
Bitcoin. Before I it does feel yeah, an
00:05:38
overworked used word but a little gas lit.
00:05:41
Just what what is the benefit in terms of secrecy?
00:05:44
Has it extreme sort of transparency or yeah?
00:05:49
Anyway anyway and so we have seen several justice department
00:05:53
announcements around cryptocurrencies.
00:05:55
I was like, okay well this will be this will be fine.
00:05:59
But instead, what the justice department delivered to us was
00:06:04
the most amazing. The most amazing defendants.
00:06:10
It's found in a while. It's a married couple in
00:06:13
Manhattan who were arrested last week for allegedly, trying to
00:06:18
launder billions of dollars worth of bitcoin that were
00:06:21
stolen during this, like, 3.6 billion my or?
00:06:24
No. It's more than that was the
00:06:25
recovery. I think they were trying to move
00:06:27
more than 4 billion. But when so this goes back to a
00:06:31
big hack in 2016 in the exchange was called bitfenix and at the
00:06:37
time hackers broke into this Exchange Believe it's based in
00:06:42
Hong Kong and they stole 72 million dollars in Bitcoin from
00:06:46
this exchange. This is 2016.
00:06:47
So it was still considered like a lot of money and in the
00:06:51
Bitcoin world but what it really did is it made people nervous
00:06:54
about whether or not these exchanges which generally aren't
00:06:57
regulated and nobody really has a transparent few exchange
00:07:01
especially at that time we're transparent about their security
00:07:04
systems. Whether or not Bitcoin could
00:07:07
kind of take off as a widely traded currency, if the
00:07:10
exchanges themselves were so vulnerable hackers, could just
00:07:13
go in and take them part of what I love about.
00:07:16
It is 70 million, some gets stolen, but then because it's so
00:07:20
hard to move the Bitcoin without getting caught it like grows to
00:07:25
be worth is like right. So it's like nothing better than
00:07:29
just like being forced to hold an investment that ends up being
00:07:33
super Savvy. You'd imagine if they Of, they
00:07:36
would have, you know, cashed out on this 70 70 million, right?
00:07:40
And said they're sitting on like billions of dollars and it's all
00:07:43
great. It's great for the justice
00:07:45
department Museum. They had.
00:07:46
This was like the biggest recovery everything, right?
00:07:48
Exactly. They were like, this is the
00:07:50
biggest asset recovery at 3 plus billion dollars, so they had
00:07:53
line again for the justice department.
00:07:56
It was a lot more exciting than if they'd recovered mmm 65
00:07:59
million. Do you need to get a report?
00:08:01
Maybe they were just sitting on this to try and get the maximum
00:08:03
bitcoin price. Yeah.
00:08:05
At the best recovery headline. And they saw the markets turn
00:08:09
there like shit, we need to move on this.
00:08:10
We gotta do it now. Yeah, yeah.
00:08:13
Well I mean they were charged by criminal complaint rather than
00:08:16
indictment which is a very nerdy thing to even make a distinction
00:08:19
about. But when you're charged by
00:08:21
criminal complaint, it means that the justice department
00:08:23
prosecutors did think to themselves.
00:08:26
We do not want to for some reason, we don't want to take
00:08:30
the time to put together a presentation for the grand jury,
00:08:34
and wait for the grand jury to decide.
00:08:35
We're going to go straight to a judge and we're going to charge
00:08:38
these people by criminal complaint.
00:08:39
They still have to obtain a formal indictment within.
00:08:42
I forgot the number of days but oftentimes when you see that one
00:08:45
of the reasons why the just want and there are several.
00:08:48
But one reason that just sperm I do that is because they fear
00:08:52
that the people they want to arrest our flight risks.
00:08:56
Now I don't think anybody has ever said to me.
00:08:59
Another reason for charging by criminal, complaint is fear that
00:09:02
the crypto currency Market will continue to plunge.
00:09:05
But I really like that as a possibility.
00:09:08
They'd also, as part of the investigation had to move the
00:09:11
Bitcoin basically into their own wallet, right?
00:09:15
So that could have created some sort of desire to move forward
00:09:19
with. These are a lot of questions.
00:09:20
They so why why it moved. So they do they they charge this
00:09:25
couple by criminal complaint last Tuesday and then they
00:09:28
arrest them. And what comes out is not just
00:09:32
that, this is a couple who was trying Launder billions of
00:09:37
dollars worth of bitcoin basically by creating, you know,
00:09:41
lots of different wallets at lots of different exchanges, but
00:09:44
one, they are not very good at it and to that they, as a couple
00:09:49
are just this extraordinary pair.
00:09:53
It's a man named Leo Lichtenstein and his wife,
00:09:57
Heather Morgan and Heather Morgan and Ilya Lichtenstein.
00:10:01
They are trying to, you know, Move just like 19 bit.
00:10:08
Crabber and Forbes contributor but not just a contributor.
00:10:13
She is a Forbes contributor who wrote about how not to get
00:10:17
scammed. What's your rap name?
00:10:20
I believe. It's Razzle Khan.
00:10:22
We're certainly going to clip that yeah.
00:10:25
Yeah. They'll have to find a Raza Khan
00:10:26
clip. Silver on my fingers and boots
00:10:37
on my feet. Always be a girl.
00:10:39
Not a goddamn, a message at the beep.
00:10:44
I mean, there's so many things that are really great about her.
00:10:47
He did y combinator. Yeah.
00:10:48
I mean, brick great. I feel like I'm her but you can
00:10:52
tell from the criminal complaint which is really detailed and
00:10:56
actually really interesting if you want to understand how the
00:10:58
government can do things like Trace cryptocurrencies, they
00:11:02
moved from ball to ball it. You can tell that they've run
00:11:05
into problems, the world has changed as 2016.
00:11:08
So some of the Bitcoins that are moving to different exchanges,
00:11:11
the exchanges now want to comply with With International banking
00:11:16
regulations, there's a know, your customer rule.
00:11:19
So some of the exchanges ask them to please provide
00:11:22
identification because they want to make sure that the person who
00:11:26
opens the account is the person that the person says they are
00:11:30
and this couple is unable to do that.
00:11:32
So for example at that exchange their funds are completely
00:11:35
Frozen and they can't do anything with them and also it's
00:11:39
a flag to The Exchange and of course that point you can
00:11:41
imagine that the exchange would do something like contact law
00:11:44
enforcement. And say, we have an account and
00:11:46
they cannot verify their identity.
00:11:48
And so the couple kind of runs into trouble at several terms as
00:11:53
they try to launder these Bitcoins and at some way they
00:11:58
start buying things like NF teas, with the Bitcoin, they
00:12:01
start buying things like gold and then when one of my favorite
00:12:04
moves, they just convert the money to a 500 dollar.
00:12:07
Walmart gift card home. They're just, they're just
00:12:10
classic likely, they're not drink them off, is very skilled.
00:12:13
I mean, I was Your colleagues had a piece that was I think
00:12:17
these they were envisioned as sort of these amazing.
00:12:20
Whoever whoever got this Bitcoin was sort of some sort of super
00:12:25
hacker or something and they seem like total bumbler sort of
00:12:29
huckster type people and everybody's trying to make sense
00:12:33
of it. Well, that was a thing.
00:12:34
Like once the government was able to get, you know, process
00:12:39
to do things like get into lichtenstein's online.
00:12:44
Accounts right, his Anatomy is online Financial accounts, but
00:12:47
like, basically getting to like his iCloud or, you know,
00:12:51
whatever files information gets stored.
00:12:54
They found that he was like extremely well-organized, right?
00:12:56
He kept like a file called, like passport ideas and he kept a
00:13:01
file called, you know, like passwords.
00:13:05
So he, he was not only well organized, but he labeled
00:13:08
everything really well, so that when the government did start
00:13:11
rifling through, you know, basically his online In life in
00:13:16
his video a file. I criminal activity.
00:13:18
Yeah well I think my favorite my favorite was that when they then
00:13:23
went into the couple's home into their apartment, they found a
00:13:26
bag that was labeled burner phones which he filled.
00:13:32
I have one of those, you know and it doesn't every regular
00:13:34
American just have a bag of burner phones and you have to
00:13:37
label the bag burner phone. So it doesn't you don't confuse
00:13:40
it with like you're, you're a regular home for Activity?
00:13:45
Only or whatever. No, no accusations of drugs that
00:13:49
I'm aware wasn't there. Are there so many bizarre
00:13:53
aspects. This, I mean the wife wanted to
00:13:56
go back to the apartment. Allegedly for her cat.
00:13:59
Do you know what I'm talking about here?
00:14:01
Yeah, I mean yeah, so they have I think there's a photo of her
00:14:06
with the cat to but like, yes. So again there these are not
00:14:10
like I would not say that they were, they were prepared a
00:14:15
criminal mastermind first sir, what to do, when the government
00:14:19
starts investigating you, even though she He had written this
00:14:22
article for first like how not to get scammed in the crypto
00:14:27
world, but yes. So like they wanting to say go
00:14:31
back home to your apartment for your cat.
00:14:33
Would be something that I think I'm a hardened criminal would
00:14:36
advise against, but then they let her go back, right?
00:14:40
Yeah, yeah. Well, this is sort of
00:14:42
interesting to like they're fighting, they, they were
00:14:46
released on bail and the bail is like, extraordinarily high as
00:14:50
you can imagine. And I Believe that for
00:14:52
Liechtenstein the bill also includes like his parents house
00:14:56
and they're and they're basically arguing that that is
00:15:00
excessive given the flight risk that they pose.
00:15:04
Clearly, the government doesn't think so, and the courts don't
00:15:07
think so. But I think they're trying to
00:15:09
make an argument. They're really not that
00:15:12
dangerous and they probably couldn't get away if they wanted
00:15:14
to. And while I can understand why
00:15:17
the government be very invested in having this, this extreme
00:15:21
Bail. I can also see an argument being
00:15:24
made by their online. Existence, they're not
00:15:28
sophisticated. She goes back to get the cat and
00:15:31
she like tries to mess with her phone and they think to like
00:15:34
lock it or something. Right?
00:15:35
Right. Exactly, which would be
00:15:37
extraordinarily foolish. I wouldn't say that it shows
00:15:41
that it necessarily 100% shows intent, like men's Rhea that.
00:15:46
Russ, I'm guilt there but it's certainly not.
00:15:49
It's certainly not the ACT typical I'm an innocent person
00:15:53
who just wants to see her cat right now.
00:15:56
A super bizarre. Point of this is just they
00:16:00
weren't charged or I don't even know if charges are right word,
00:16:04
given how this this was laid out.
00:16:05
But the hack itself we don't know who did the actual have
00:16:10
exactly. And like the government was very
00:16:12
clear and very careful, I think to not accuse them of hacking
00:16:17
into B, find X and they have also made clear through the core
00:16:21
Papers that this larger investigation is ongoing.
00:16:25
And so, one thing that they will probably ask Razzle Khan and
00:16:29
Lichtenstein is how they came into possession of these of the
00:16:34
Bitcoins because the bit coins that were stolen from defined X
00:16:37
were eventually moved into a wallet under election signs
00:16:40
control now. So, they're going to want to
00:16:42
know how that happened and whether or not they had
00:16:46
Outreach. We know, hackers reached out to
00:16:48
them or what people, they already knew, they're going to
00:16:50
try to pressure them to give. Information.
00:16:53
And they're going to use this criminal complaint, which will
00:16:58
help you to eventually become an environment.
00:16:59
They're going to use the criminal charges against them,
00:17:01
to apply pressure to see. If they if they have the
00:17:05
information, the government wants about the hawk and if
00:17:08
they'll flip but it doesn't is there much of a signal.
00:17:11
Whether the sort of hunch here is that it was another person or
00:17:17
that. It was probably them, but they
00:17:18
just want more evidence. Or is there any sort of Signal
00:17:22
one way or the other, like the government hasn't really signals
00:17:25
one way or another. But I mean given, I don't know.
00:17:29
I mean like, do you think that the person behind the song
00:17:32
getting high in a cemetery, who's rapping?
00:17:35
I love me some grave. Grass, is the kind of criminal
00:17:38
mastermind, that would be able. Maybe they're like, great, you
00:17:41
know. They're, it's like, we need to
00:17:43
leave a trail of just stupidity behind us, you know, like how
00:17:48
hard is it? This is the 12 Dimension, is
00:17:50
this, what I like? I mean it's you know, I this is
00:17:53
so random but I was listening to I don't know, Bo Burnham clip or
00:17:57
something. He's talking about you know,
00:17:59
eighth grade the movie made and he's Tashi I guess is wonderful
00:18:03
through. Yes, so hard for me to watch, it
00:18:05
was too real estate. But you know, he's talking about
00:18:08
the ideas, you know, the middle school or whatever, you know,
00:18:12
puts out the Instagram, which makes her seem very cool.
00:18:14
But then he's watching, you know, the real middle school or
00:18:16
in the mall who seem super abilities and only catches the
00:18:21
sort of brief. If second of coolness that she
00:18:23
can muster, you know, you, so I I don't even need to go down
00:18:27
this path to say, social media doesn't represent reality and
00:18:31
you could create breadcrumbs to make yourself look like a total
00:18:35
lunatic. I don't know.
00:18:36
I think it's more likely that they are sort of weird quirky
00:18:40
characters, but that doesn't sort of mean that.
00:18:44
I mean, he one of them couldn't be sort of a Savvy hacker.
00:18:49
I'll take that under consideration.
00:18:51
I think. One of the things that people
00:18:53
were surprised by is that they were involved, that they were
00:18:55
accused of this kind of crime because their online personas
00:19:00
are so kind of like, Goofy and hilarious.
00:19:04
Right? Sort of like, is razznik on
00:19:07
Billy a criminal mastermind. That doesn't, that doesn't seem
00:19:10
to make sense. What is I mean, the justice
00:19:13
department, sort of posture towards crypto right now?
00:19:16
I mean, you know, Katie Han who has her new fund, you know,
00:19:20
comes out of Of the justice department, obviously, you know,
00:19:24
has been out for a while. Was it Andreessen Horowitz?
00:19:27
Now it's their biggest bus. I mean, our is a sort of huge
00:19:31
amount of their resources, spent on crypto at the moment or
00:19:34
what's, what sort of your read on law enforcement energy around
00:19:39
this stuff? I think they take it very
00:19:41
seriously and part because cryptocurrency has for so long,
00:19:46
it has been used as the financing arm of all sorts of
00:19:49
legal activity, right? So From, you know, weapons
00:19:53
dealing sanctions of Asia, and human trafficking.
00:19:57
Drug trafficking that's been financed by more by
00:20:03
cryptocurrency. So the Justice Department's
00:20:05
always going to be very interested in them in the
00:20:07
financial flows support illegal activity and one thing about a
00:20:11
bust like this. That's so interesting aside from
00:20:14
the from this couple is that it sends yet another signal and
00:20:19
this it's the signal, they're trying to send over and over.
00:20:21
Which is you used to think that this was a way to commit crime
00:20:26
because of the anonymity, but because of the permanence of The
00:20:30
Ledger, we will trace it and we will figure out who you are
00:20:33
eventually, it will take us a while, but we will figure out
00:20:37
the players in this chain and we will determine who owned what,
00:20:44
when, in some ways they're helping the crypto.
00:20:47
Yes, because that's why someone like Katie hon can feel
00:20:50
comfortable investing. In this world basically when
00:20:53
she, you know, she's making the investment she's she wants to be
00:20:56
ahead of where regulation is because once both law
00:21:00
enforcement and regulation really have like a firm role
00:21:04
that they're playing in the crypto Market, it will basically
00:21:07
say we have legitimized, this Market money is going to start
00:21:11
flowing through it even more, bigger businesses Fortune, 100
00:21:14
companies global companies can start using this market.
00:21:17
And if you were an early either, like the infrastructure, The
00:21:21
wallets. And the exchanges if you were in
00:21:23
early around the products that are created solely from this
00:21:29
world like an FTS, you could make a lot of money.
00:21:33
But you do need that like layer of legitimacy because it's
00:21:37
really hard for something that's only considered to be for
00:21:40
criminal, use to grow. And it's sort of a funny
00:21:43
contradiction of course of like the crypto world where they want
00:21:46
it to be totally contract-based. But then it seems like whenever
00:21:51
there is A pickle at the at the core.
00:21:54
It is a human thing where they want sort of the same as the
00:21:58
legal. You know, the same as sort of
00:22:00
contracts in the regular world where you're the intended, sort
00:22:04
of structure of the agreement matters, more than the letter of
00:22:08
the agreement. You just sort of touched on this
00:22:10
like, very essential tension, in, in technology, right?
00:22:13
That, you know, the more we want things to be more Tech and less
00:22:17
human. We keep getting to this problem
00:22:19
that they Center is always human.
00:22:22
I was literally walking around my neighborhood in Brooklyn and
00:22:27
there were. So there was a real world.
00:22:29
Illustration of board ape somewhere like someone was
00:22:33
drawing nft art in New York so it is Bridge the digital real
00:22:40
world divided a couple of things have happened.
00:22:43
I mean board a, you know, is sort of, one of the big nft
00:22:47
projects with crypto Punk's, you know, there.
00:22:51
I think like Thousands of these different eight.
00:22:53
Billis trations, people can buy the nft S they're worth tons of
00:22:58
money. So but they've been in the news
00:23:02
for a couple of reasons. I mean, first of all, BuzzFeed
00:23:05
Katie new topless, you know, dug up the names of the founders of
00:23:12
board ape this month, just as Andreessen, Horowitz was sort of
00:23:17
working an investment that valued the company behind bore,
00:23:20
Dave said five billion Dollars and it was sort of, I mean, that
00:23:24
was, you know, the classic sort of crypto versus the media
00:23:29
fight. I don't think everyone in crypto
00:23:31
is sort of against them being identified but there was, you
00:23:35
know, there's sort of an appeal of anonymity in sort of crypto
00:23:39
world and, and she's sort of exposed their names.
00:23:43
So there was some debate around that and then sort of at the
00:23:46
same time, there's this interesting element that, you
00:23:50
know, board Apes allows People who own them to actually own the
00:23:55
intellectual property of the ape, which means that they can,
00:23:58
you know, brand their marijuana company with them.
00:24:00
And so then they're all these interesting questions of just
00:24:04
how you maintain a brand if everybody who has one can be
00:24:09
sort of a Shameless opportunist with it and what what that means
00:24:14
and then yeah. So there's just I mean, I do
00:24:19
we're in this amazing world where I do think Speak to me.
00:24:22
And if T's are just wear a ton of the tech energy is like a lot
00:24:27
of interesting. I mean, lifts old CFO went to
00:24:30
open sea. I think open.
00:24:33
See, you know, which raised a thirteen billion dollar
00:24:35
valuation, you know? It is definitely sort of the Hub
00:24:40
of some tech intellectual energy at the moment.
00:24:44
I don't know what stands out to you.
00:24:46
Well, I think it's interesting, just that anonymity was, was
00:24:49
considered cool. Looks like a good direction for
00:24:53
Tech to go in. I think that with social media
00:24:57
Tech was fueling, such a push away from privacy and away from
00:25:03
doing things because you like to do them, everything was like an
00:25:07
exhibition and by being anonymous what was it?
00:25:11
Greg Solano and Wiley era. Now I don't know how to say his
00:25:16
last name by being anonymous. They were basically able to feel
00:25:19
Trends create trends. Create cool and do it and leave
00:25:24
all of the people who like glommed onto it, like they just
00:25:28
like they were like, we will be cool if we will create something
00:25:31
and anybody who does want to do that kind of Shameless
00:25:33
self-promotion and anybody who wants to use the product, we've
00:25:36
created in that way. They just look way less cool.
00:25:39
Like, they just looked kind of lame but like, it's okay.
00:25:43
I like that impulse, really I'm definitely on the, I don't know,
00:25:48
real names are so valuable for now.
00:25:50
Well, let me first. We saw there is one crypto
00:25:53
project. I'm blanking on the name who had
00:25:56
it turned out. One of their Founders had
00:25:58
founded, sort of another crypto project.
00:26:00
That was like, super scammy. So there is an element that it's
00:26:04
just helpful. That's not, that's not the case
00:26:08
I think with board Apes. But, but there is just this
00:26:10
question, you know, if people are buying into something, don't
00:26:13
they have a right sort of understand the background of the
00:26:17
creators. And I mean, these if you're
00:26:20
creating an N of t, you're basically selling people that
00:26:23
you're going to keep creating a bunch of energy around the
00:26:27
project by building more of a community or doing interesting
00:26:30
stuff. Even though you're making money
00:26:33
basically upfront because these things spike in value and then
00:26:38
you might not have as much incentive to keep it going.
00:26:41
So it feels almost more important than anything to know.
00:26:45
What sort of person you're, you know, you're aligning your
00:26:49
financial interests with I guess.
00:26:51
But I guess that's not a very fun answer.
00:26:54
Yeah. I mean I guess it would like
00:26:55
that idea like creating continuing to create energy
00:26:57
around something. I just like the idea that that
00:27:00
can be driven in an anonymous way rather than a Like I think
00:27:06
what we've become used to on Instagram is like the people you
00:27:12
follow, who are celebrities being like continue to follow me
00:27:16
as I continue to draw you in with like my celebrity life and
00:27:19
the people who we follow, who are friends also being like,
00:27:23
here's the best of my life. I mean, it's just like so
00:27:25
there's something that's become like and I don't know how to
00:27:29
qualify this because I'm not a cultural critic, but it has that
00:27:33
same feel of Of for lack of a better word to genus of like
00:27:38
that same Vibe of like girlboss chuukese.
00:27:45
Now the Washington Post Taylor, the Roses jump ship your
00:27:49
unfortunately. I think not not allowed to use
00:27:51
that word but I mean like when somebody does anything it just
00:27:55
makes you like so uncomfortable. Because it's so uncool and I
00:27:58
just have to like look away. If to pretend it's not
00:28:00
happening. You think board apes are cool.
00:28:03
Is that what you're saying? I just want to I think that in
00:28:07
part by being anonymous and creating Buzz around just this
00:28:11
idea of something that's absurd. Yeah, like they basically
00:28:16
managed to get people who do have influence to to buy in,
00:28:21
right? You know what I mean?
00:28:22
Like, the fact that, I mean, what I liked about Katie story,
00:28:25
as she tells you up front that they have been successful
00:28:29
because these essentially like nonsense and of tease you have
00:28:35
Two celebrities of varying degrees willing to drop a half
00:28:38
million dollars just to be a part of it.
00:28:40
Right? Not that I mean what it is is
00:28:42
it's Paris Hilton and I forgot who the other guy is we didn't
00:28:45
Dave Chappelle by one of my I think so.
00:28:48
Oh, it was Jimmy Fallon's. Sorry, Jimmy Fallon.
00:28:51
I think you're famous to, but you know what I mean?
00:28:54
It's like, Jimmy Fallon Paris Hilton between the two of them
00:28:58
spent more than half a million dollars because they wanted not
00:29:01
just to own it and ft. They wanted to own.
00:29:05
Bored ape. Yeah Don her story but Dave
00:29:08
Chappelle purchased for tape I think for three hundred
00:29:13
seventy-one thousand dollars. Yeah I mean it's amazing and I
00:29:19
just I just do think at the root a lot of people participating
00:29:23
are trying to make money and it's like yeah, financial gain.
00:29:28
Absolutely and I think that like part of making money especially
00:29:31
when you're trying to move toward the consumer which is
00:29:33
what this is like Like I don't think that nft is are just like
00:29:38
a an Enterprise only problem. You know, when you're trying to
00:29:41
move toward the consumer, you need to do it by making it cool.
00:29:45
And there was a time like culturally where what was cool
00:29:48
was like direct to Consumer and like, self-improvement and J.
00:29:54
Sickly like anything that looks like a, you know, a twenty
00:29:58
fifteen to twenty probably like 18 or 17 start up around like
00:30:03
consumer stuff. Like This is going to help you.
00:30:06
Optimize is going to help you maximize and help you Rise &
00:30:09
Grind, all this bullshit. And I think that we've gone to a
00:30:12
world that kind of reject that. And so it's not surprising to me
00:30:15
that this more absurdist product is, is more interesting and
00:30:20
cooler, right? Yeah, I hope selfishly just
00:30:24
because I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not a rising grinder are
00:30:28
like I I prefer like Shameless, stupid Financial speculation.
00:30:34
Russian and sort of signaling online to people who are just
00:30:38
like fake fake Grinders, I guess.
00:30:41
Yeah, between those two options, guess like which which group of
00:30:48
people is more likely to produce like the Beastie Boys Sabotage
00:30:51
video, and that's how I feel. And that's how I just judge.
00:30:55
All all all things now. I mean I do think it's cool that
00:30:59
you know artists are making a bunch of money, all of a sudden
00:31:01
because there's this wild speculation.
00:31:04
So So, in terms of a group of people that I'm happy to get
00:31:07
some upside, I think there are questions about how much the
00:31:11
actual artists in the. It does feel like the people who
00:31:13
create the Project's, make more money than the people who
00:31:16
illustrate them. Yes, gas which is unfortunate.
00:31:20
Yeah, and I agree with that but it's just sort of a I mean, I
00:31:25
think we're kind of in a speculative time right now
00:31:29
financially. And so, I don't think that like,
00:31:32
Getting rid of n FTS or refusing to like take their existence
00:31:38
seriously. In any way.
00:31:39
Shape reform will will stop speculation.
00:31:41
Or will change the fact that right now?
00:31:46
A lot of capital is in the hands of very few people and that
00:31:49
those people are not super inclined to do anything that
00:31:52
would create like most productivity and prosperity
00:31:55
people. Well, that's I mean, my favorite
00:31:58
topic and recent horror, I mean, that is sort of the
00:32:00
contradiction of, you know, Andreessen is big on sort of,
00:32:04
it's time to build and sort of investing in, you know, Private
00:32:08
Industry somehow building big infrastructure again.
00:32:12
I mean, well, I mean that's often represented by like the
00:32:15
and arose and SpaceX is of the world.
00:32:18
But then at the same time, it's the firm.
00:32:20
This gauged and just sort of nft games.
00:32:24
I mean, I don't know. We obviously they're big enough
00:32:27
now that they have sort of different, they contain
00:32:30
multitudes. And I said, like, when you think
00:32:33
about that, that problem in some ways what's happening in the
00:32:38
tech world. The tech world is kind of
00:32:39
especially like this startup World, their beneficiaries of
00:32:44
this problem in the American economy but they're not based
00:32:49
because of what their interests are there not like really well
00:32:53
suited to solve it. They're just sort of like
00:32:55
playing at the margins. I mean I think it was the
00:32:58
remembers the Wall Street Journal or the Washington Post.
00:33:00
I had this very good. Good story recently just showing
00:33:05
how the employees of one of the country's largest grocery
00:33:08
chains. They have all reported that
00:33:11
they're homeless, or that they face eviction that they
00:33:14
themselves. Do not have enough money to buy
00:33:16
the groceries they sell. That's the bigger problem that
00:33:19
we have a world in which a large successful company, whose
00:33:24
Executives can make millions of dollars lives and dies.
00:33:28
I'm ensuring that employees, cannot pay rent or live.
00:33:33
With any sort of middle class quality of life.
00:33:36
And in fact, faced homelessness and food insecurity like that
00:33:40
sort of the bigger problem with the American economy and that's
00:33:45
and that sort of like acceptance that that's okay.
00:33:48
Because either help shareholders or for some absurd reason.
00:33:52
But your point is these nf3 buyer that crease, the ecosystem
00:33:56
in which, you know, Capital has now accrued to a tiny number of
00:34:00
people and some of those people like.
00:34:02
So Akan Valley, people they're just not equipped interested in
00:34:07
or in any way like positioned to solve or tackle that problem.
00:34:13
So instead they're just like playing around the margins with
00:34:15
things like nfte. So your point is if you're
00:34:18
nihilistic Ali going to waste your money on stupid consumer
00:34:21
stuff, might as well be basically an acceleration estab
00:34:24
out it and she would on the most like extremely obviously
00:34:28
pointless thing. So that then it becomes very
00:34:31
obvious. To society that you believe in
00:34:34
nothing. And so then Katie better will
00:34:36
say that's good because at least if you are like an empty Hollow
00:34:41
husk, it will be very obvious to everyone and be like and at
00:34:51
least better that than you know I mean it is funny you know, and
00:34:55
as Miami yeah just everybody's in a fucking like Ferrari or is
00:34:59
a, it is a crazy. I mean, to some degree.
00:35:02
Tech is just in be embracing conspicuous consumption in a way
00:35:06
that they weren't really supposed to in San Francisco.
00:35:11
Right. Right.
00:35:12
That's so funny. That's true.
00:35:13
And there's, like, a way in which I feel like, you know, if
00:35:16
we were to compare this decade to the post Spanish, Flu decade,
00:35:21
you know, the our last pandemic, you know, Tech is kind of like
00:35:25
the Gatsby part of that era. A lot of attention is paid to
00:35:31
it. There's a lot of money there and
00:35:34
it looks like a lot of fun, but even in the Roaring Twenties, we
00:35:38
pay an outsize amount of attention to that part of what
00:35:42
was going on in America. And we kind of don't pay as much
00:35:45
attention to this like, really hard, horrible reality that for
00:35:50
the mass of the country that was not like the eff Scott
00:35:54
Fitzgerald portion of America. Let's see, we had the Resurgence
00:35:59
of the KKK. We had like This hatred of
00:36:03
immigrants, we had people incredibly poor poverty-stricken
00:36:07
like zero trust in the government and all sorts of
00:36:11
other extremely troubling phenomenon.
00:36:14
When we think about what that post, pandemic era was like, we
00:36:18
think about like the Roaring 20s.
00:36:21
And I feel like that's kind of the role Tech is playing there
00:36:24
there. We're thinking about, like
00:36:25
they're, you know, Roaring 20s style Behavior, their absurdity,
00:36:30
the fun of it, all the ridiculous.
00:36:32
All you know Paris Hilton and some talk show host whose name I
00:36:35
will never remember. I'm so sorry Jimmy yeah thank
00:36:38
you Jimmy Fallon talking about how I'm a Conan O'Brien person
00:36:42
okay I'm Jimmy Fallon talking about half a million dollars I
00:36:46
just read and we spent on this picture of an ape like that's
00:36:50
what we kind of see and that's the part that we pay a lot of
00:36:54
attention to because it's the glittery Bart and it's sort of
00:36:58
like a bomb over the just the really troubling.
00:37:02
Lying reality that exists for a lot of people.
00:37:06
Wow. And I and that concludes my
00:37:09
time. You make my heart feel too hard
00:37:11
and I don't know, it is yeah, I don't know.
00:37:16
At least the tech people are trying to do interesting things.
00:37:18
I understand that they are fortunate enough to be able to
00:37:23
waste their money on, all right. And opportunity.
00:37:26
I'm like everyone has a role to play Americans, like move less
00:37:30
than I believe ever before. Like there is a certain light.
00:37:34
There's I feel like almost like they're playing their part right
00:37:39
there. Not as much as you this is you
00:37:41
will not believe me, say this. I'm actually not like conferring
00:37:44
a value judgment on. Yes, because I find it hard to
00:37:48
even come up with an idea of how any of these players could
00:37:52
behave differently and they're going to be people who are like,
00:37:55
that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
00:37:56
Like they could, they could give up all their money and they
00:37:59
could vote for Bernie Sanders and they could go work in a
00:38:02
homeless shelter and I'm like okay yes they could and yet they
00:38:06
will not. And so like I I given like the
00:38:10
structures in which they re Services, who spends a ton of
00:38:14
money on homelessness, like Isn't it?
00:38:16
I'm just the chassis contact was the challenge.
00:38:18
Like I'm sure it starts like cloud of people with them with,
00:38:23
like, money to like burn on eight pictures, right?
00:38:28
Hey, I'm not talking about San Francisco and to your point like
00:38:31
they're in Florida or there in Texas, having just a great time.
00:38:36
It's good. Great.
00:38:37
Yeah, I'm gonna ideological inflection point.
00:38:40
I don't know. What do you mean?
00:38:43
I just, I It feels like we've passed an insane.
00:38:47
We've you know the body Administration has to bunch of
00:38:51
safety, net measures. But when you say, you're in an
00:38:55
ideological inflection point from what to what just you
00:38:58
personally just to from? Yeah, the most important thing
00:39:04
was social programs who the most important thing being.
00:39:11
Here's my problem. I really like this is and I
00:39:14
might cut all this Like on the one hand, I'm like, you know,
00:39:17
die-hard Democrat, right. I do think like fascism is the
00:39:20
most important thing I think Republicans are like
00:39:23
anti-intellectual. And I have a big problem with
00:39:25
sort of the David Sachs, Peter thiel's of the world who I read
00:39:29
is basically being willing to play with fire in order to get
00:39:34
tax cuts. They're basically willing to
00:39:36
like, say anything do anything to keep government small.
00:39:40
So, it's like this crazy, Republican party.
00:39:43
That is Is just like, you know, a game, it's basically we'll
00:39:48
have a culture War so that the elites can cut taxes.
00:39:52
So the Republican party to me is the most.
00:39:54
It's disgusting on every level. It's disingenuous.
00:39:57
So so I there's nothing is to say that I'm having an
00:40:01
ideological. Like it doesn't mean anything
00:40:04
because I'm sort of like, you know, as Democrat as you could
00:40:08
be. But at the same time, you know,
00:40:11
you go to Europe and it just does.
00:40:13
I don't want like America to become someone like chillax like
00:40:17
and welfare state. Yeah, just sort of everybody
00:40:21
gets like I like the idea that America.
00:40:23
Yeah you gotta hustle and it feels like the idea that there's
00:40:26
a ton of money around the United States and it like feels like
00:40:31
some people aren't like seizing. It feels like culturally
00:40:35
disappointing. I don't think the Republicans
00:40:37
have any sort of answer to that, but I do think sort of what the
00:40:42
Democrats themselves like to talk about which is just like,
00:40:46
you know, Is is sort of lame. So I just, I just don't want the
00:40:51
government to be, like, at the center of my like mine.
00:40:55
Like, I feel like we just spend, I mean, it doesn't feel like
00:40:58
much is going to get done. I'm going to vote for Democrats.
00:41:01
I'm against fascism but it's just, I feel like there's a lot
00:41:05
of complaining without a clear like picture of of what what we
00:41:12
want. I don't know.
00:41:13
Does that make sense? Or it does make sense?
00:41:15
I mean, like first of all, I need to say, I don't I like
00:41:17
Obviously, I don't necessarily see politics in the same way
00:41:21
that you do, which is fine or see, even the party's
00:41:24
necessarily in that way. But I do agree that this idea of
00:41:27
focusing on politics is possibly not the best way to spend one's
00:41:32
energies right now and I wonder if part of the reason you feel
00:41:35
the way you do about politics, still being all so all-consuming
00:41:39
is because you spend a lot of time on Twitter, because if you
00:41:42
are not on Twitter, right? If you were not reading these
00:41:46
things like Massive. I mean, it's not like, I'm in
00:41:50
touch with, you know, 300 million people, right?
00:41:53
But I think that if you're not on Twitter, it is very easy to
00:41:56
have conversations with people about their lives and their
00:41:59
problems, they're having or the or the not the problems, they're
00:42:02
having just the thing they're doing that where politics is
00:42:05
like literally never mentioned at, all right?
00:42:09
And I think that is a fine way to live, but my job obviously is
00:42:13
a mix of Surfing the conversation to the extent.
00:42:17
This and then when I'm at my best you know, doing reporting
00:42:21
and getting outside of the conversation, but there's an
00:42:23
inherent it, you know, I guess I could live in a world of only
00:42:28
sort of off the sort of narrative stories.
00:42:31
But it feels hard to sort of unplug from what sort of is
00:42:37
being shattered is hard. And I think that one thing that
00:42:40
only phrases in a way that won't happen for people won't come for
00:42:42
me. But I do think that one thing
00:42:45
that Trump showed the world was that Is extremely useful as a
00:42:50
for our politicians who want to bypass, who want to bypass
00:42:53
having to get messages out through more traditional means
00:42:56
like, you know, having a reporter right about it or doing
00:42:59
an interview with 60 Minutes that you can just have a direct
00:43:03
relationship with your supporters, I had Twitter.
00:43:06
And so, I think that Twitter became a much more politics
00:43:10
driven platform than it was before 2016.
00:43:14
Like, before 2016, I can remember that Twitter.
00:43:17
Like obviously, there were people talking about politics in
00:43:20
2014 and 2012, you know, the 2012 election was not something.
00:43:24
That was a shoo-in for Obama. I think that there's a lot of
00:43:27
political chatter happening on the platform, but I remember on
00:43:31
Twitter, I could also very happily just jump into groups of
00:43:34
people who are just talking about, like, bands or who were
00:43:38
talking about like life hacks or.
00:43:41
And so, I think that Twitter became political, well, some of
00:43:45
it is just how these social media companies change.
00:43:48
I looked I looked on the internet archive, we would tweet
00:43:51
about stuff like I'm going to this show, you know, I don't
00:43:54
every single guy here and I see this movie, like I wasn't what
00:43:57
he seemed like a conversation. It wasn't like I really ran on
00:44:01
Twitter. It's sort of, like, why are you
00:44:02
talking about, you know, that there are a couple big themes?
00:44:05
And we're sort of all sort of amassing.
00:44:09
I started, I started I can't decide how I mean, I'm not
00:44:14
really tweeting on it. I was just sick of not.
00:44:17
Being able to read Mark injury since tweet.
00:44:20
So I created an account that that I named the name of it is
00:44:25
not here to contradict Mark injuries and the account is p
00:44:31
Mark a fanboy and then it is it is interesting just to like
00:44:38
inhabit sort of the you know, I followed Balaji and all those
00:44:42
people that block me and I mean they're very It's they're still
00:44:48
involved in like their own sort of conversation, you know, it's
00:44:52
just great. It's a different sort of topic
00:44:56
but it feels like it's sort of In The Same Spirit.
00:45:01
Yeah, I remember like this was ages ago, and I think it was
00:45:03
even before I covered the tech industry being involved in a
00:45:07
conversation about Japanese debt, with, with Marc,
00:45:12
Andreessen of all people. And then, a couple of other
00:45:14
folks because I had just I slept Fortune obviously.
00:45:18
I was always interested in debt markets.
00:45:20
That's so nerdy and ridiculous. But whatever, forgot, which
00:45:23
short seller. It was not common but one of the
00:45:27
big shorts had put out in a sort of an interesting.
00:45:32
He was in Texas. I'm going to remember his name
00:45:34
someday, just an interesting thesis on, like, Japanese debt.
00:45:39
And I thought that was like a very fun.
00:45:42
Interesting random conversation on Twitter that I can't like
00:45:45
really We imagined happening today there's just like a niche
00:45:48
conversation that we all in that moment that was interesting and
00:45:52
then it went away and that's what Twitter used to be.
00:45:56
Did you follow the whole word Soul shape?
00:45:58
Rotator thing? No, I saw, oh my God.
00:46:03
Everybody else did their podcasts on this last week but
00:46:07
Marc Andreessen has been really pushing it.
00:46:08
But word cell, you know, it's somewhat a liberal arts sort of
00:46:13
engineer divide, but it's meant to be a B savvier that
00:46:17
basically, the idea is, you know, it on an IQ test.
00:46:21
The biggest one of the most noticeable gaps in smart people
00:46:27
is that there will be people who are really good with sort of
00:46:29
word problem types and others who are good at, literally like
00:46:32
rotating shapes. It's like, if you have this
00:46:34
shape which of these shapes is it?
00:46:36
And so it's become sort of like, you know, the market and reasons
00:46:39
of the world's are shape rotators and we are word cells
00:46:43
and Market had a funny tweet where it was you know, of Of
00:46:46
course, the word cells win at word arguments.
00:46:48
They're spending, you know, all their time, word selling, and
00:46:52
we're out here rotating shapes, you know, but it's become sort
00:46:56
of a, you know, and then, you know, they obviously come up
00:47:00
with like word chat, you know, it's sort of the 4chan is ation
00:47:04
of thinking about culture. I mean, I'm sad that word sell
00:47:08
sounds so much like in cell. Well, that's the point, That's
00:47:11
the Way It Is. Well, the point is that we're
00:47:14
we're sad that we Our cultural, we are you want to be Elites
00:47:19
were smart at words, but we are in an era where shape rotators
00:47:23
run, some of the biggest companies.
00:47:25
And so we in a, in any other sort of hair shape, rotators
00:47:30
always, run the biggest companies.
00:47:31
Well, no, I think the argument is that, you know, politics used
00:47:34
to be sort of the center of because a lot of a lot of
00:47:37
success, you know, was navigating hierarchies or, you
00:47:40
know you'd be the best, it some like big organization that
00:47:44
lasted, I mean, You do successfully because of shape.
00:47:49
But I want to know that on those tests, I always score higher on
00:47:53
shape rotation. It's interesting, the maybe I
00:47:55
miss, maybe I'm in the wrong job.
00:47:57
Yeah, that's funny. I have no idea.
00:48:01
I'm not I know in cell with Eric I'm a robot tying this word so
00:48:10
thing together, my P Mark Twitter account my political
00:48:15
uncertainty. You feel like I just don't think
00:48:19
that sort of dark web Twitter or whatever.
00:48:22
We're calling a intellectual dark web.
00:48:25
I don't feel like they're very honest about their core views
00:48:29
like the aesthetic style of being sort of.
00:48:35
Its I mean the fact that they're all about these memes and that
00:48:38
it's very jokey and that it's often sort of positioned in like
00:48:42
sort of. Yeah, you don't know if they're
00:48:44
being sarcastic or not like Like there's this huge cultural Gap
00:48:48
and how they communicate on Twitter from like a mad Iglesias
00:48:51
where it's like, here's my argument for what I think we
00:48:54
should do. And I do find it very
00:48:56
frustrating that they grow older, that people are referring
00:49:00
to. I just know, there's a whole
00:49:01
range. I mean, because like, that is
00:49:03
such a 90s way to be, I'm going to suck.
00:49:06
I like as I and it's a way that I love him.
00:49:10
Well, what if I like being disingenuous all the time?
00:49:13
What's the whole argument? It's like everyone's the
00:49:16
Garofalo character and the biggest, the biggest concern was
00:49:19
that you'd be a poser, right? That's what I'm totally, which
00:49:23
has no intellectual. Like, we're not be a poser, is
00:49:26
to not be genuine whatsoever about anything.
00:49:29
Right? Which I hate, you know, I want
00:49:31
to like, what is the, what is your argument like, what is?
00:49:36
I feel like they're playing games.
00:49:37
You know? It's they don't have to commit,
00:49:40
even though they're the ones who argue that you should be a
00:49:42
productive actor in society, you know, you should actually do.
00:49:46
Do things when it actually comes to sort of the intellectual
00:49:49
arguments, they're putting out, they want to do it in a way
00:49:52
that's just like fun. Or like, the tank isn't the
00:49:55
wiggle room to be like, whatever, right honored, which
00:49:58
is like, literally how I led my entire Teenage life and right
00:50:01
you 94 right? Just so that's familiar.
00:50:04
It's a familiar way of being. I mean I know not one that I
00:50:09
necessarily criticize. Well, I mean, I think we
00:50:12
obviously cheat my, you know, morphing sort of Ideology has to
00:50:17
do with, you know. Partially you know I'm a small
00:50:20
business owner now but I think also besides that it is that,
00:50:24
you know, as a reporter as a reporter, you can write a story,
00:50:27
that's very critical of something.
00:50:29
And you might actually in your heart of hearts agree with the
00:50:33
actual people that you're sort of credit that the story is sort
00:50:37
of putting a harsh microscope under, but you just believe in
00:50:39
the activity of sort of looking into something and exposing it.
00:50:44
But I do think Now that I have more of a reported column, you
00:50:48
know, there's more I I feel more pressure to just sort of I don't
00:50:53
I can't sort of escape the like core thesis statement that would
00:50:56
say like what do you actually sort of believe, you know,
00:51:00
right? I see what you're saying.
00:51:01
When the justice department arrest to people whether or not
00:51:05
you think what they did was bad or even that big a deal?
00:51:08
You're still writing that the right Randy, write profiles
00:51:11
music, which is like they did do something wrong.
00:51:15
The reason your Eating is because they were arrested even
00:51:18
in your heart of hearts, you're like, whatever, I don't care,
00:51:21
right? I don't even think it's on.
00:51:22
It was gonna get wasted by other people like glad these fun
00:51:27
people who are willing to risk it all, or having a little
00:51:31
Razzle Khan as you deserve that money more than whoever you
00:51:36
know, Ernest early crypto investors.
00:51:39
As you know, she's a rapper. I mean I'm that's not how I feel
00:51:45
about the So couple, but I can, I can totally see that with,
00:51:49
with other things. Like there are white collar
00:51:51
crimes or there are, you know, issues that people might not
00:51:55
care about as reporters. But yet they have to say, the
00:51:59
justice department is blocking, some em, a deal which has some
00:52:03
sort of like, in Firenze of it being bought, in the eyes of the
00:52:06
justice department. But the reporter might actually
00:52:08
not actually care about whether or not this will impact
00:52:12
antitrust laws, were you. You were very To talk about the
00:52:17
Wall Street Journal half because I think clearly from our
00:52:21
messages with each other, you're like, this is very important and
00:52:25
this is society in the world even journalists don't seem to
00:52:28
care about it. So while I was very personal, I
00:52:31
miss your use the platform to tell people why this Matters To
00:52:35
The World is very straightforward.
00:52:37
The Wall Street Journal, writes a story saying we've been hacked
00:52:40
All of the reporters whose Google Docs been March through
00:52:43
by the PRC, had to sit in a meeting and kind of sit with the
00:52:47
fact that the Chinese government had read all of their Google
00:52:52
documents that seem to have any pertinent information around
00:52:55
China. And then there was just the
00:52:56
bigger question of how did this happen, you know, Google came
00:52:59
out and said it was not because our Google Suite was broken
00:53:03
into. And that was very, very
00:53:04
important. Because so many companies,
00:53:07
including the New York Times, use Google, To power our mail
00:53:11
and newcomer Newsroom is powered by the new chemicals, always
00:53:15
equally hard. And that means that our
00:53:19
documents are often stored using the Google office suite.
00:53:22
So, to have an incident where all of these reporters were
00:53:29
hacked was for, I will just say, for some reporters, at the New
00:53:33
York Times, very concerning right?
00:53:36
Let's try not trying to it seemed like it was retribution
00:53:39
for The art, the disputes between the Wall Street Journal,
00:53:43
and, and China, before they kicked, all the reporters out of
00:53:46
the country. But, you know, you can imagine,
00:53:50
if you were reporting on say a chest, Orion Chinese corporate
00:53:54
Espionage and you had interviewed, you know,
00:53:59
government officials, whether they were at the justice
00:54:01
department or the CIA, whether you would interviewed former
00:54:05
officials, who now do business with companies and advise them
00:54:08
or work at places like You know some of the big Aerospace
00:54:12
corporations, you can sort of see how the Chinese government
00:54:16
be interested to know what those folks were telling the media and
00:54:19
who is saying it. So you just again and you never
00:54:26
want to put a name and that Google doc right like never ever
00:54:30
ever. But yeah, so it has just like a
00:54:33
girl it was just a really good reminder.
00:54:36
I think to be incredibly careful just in case there is a Disaster
00:54:40
heck oh yeah like you and Tom and I were texting.
00:54:43
You guys were getting ready to do an episode and I was like I
00:54:46
have to report right now and also scrub all of my account.
00:54:50
Make sure everything's. Yeah.
00:54:54
Yeah. I was I think, I think it's just
00:54:56
me and like seven other reporters who cared about that
00:54:59
story. Yeah.
00:55:00
But we cared a lot understandably.
00:55:04
Hey, it's just yeah, everything gets hacked someday.
00:55:07
It'll be me and I'll be sad about it, but it's hard to hard
00:55:11
to get upset in the abstract because it feels, I get spam II.
00:55:16
Think I'm getting fished all the time.
00:55:17
I get very strange emails and calls only.
00:55:21
Oh, like life is just ignoring weird inbound.
00:55:25
No, don't click on any. Yeah, I don't know if I've ever
00:55:28
bought Norton Security Suite ever in my life, but I got a lot
00:55:32
of emails saying, my Norton Security Suite is no longer
00:55:36
working and I just want to click on this link to fire back up.
00:55:39
Also, I now get emails every day that say they're from Amazon and
00:55:45
that my account has been frozen, right?
00:55:47
And that my Amazon Prime packages will not be delivered.
00:55:50
But I can see how a person in a moment of panic would read that
00:55:53
and be like, oh, no, well, it's very useful that I have a Macon
00:55:58
Georgia, phone number, but I live.
00:56:00
And I talked to basically no one from Macon Georgia because all
00:56:03
those scammers I think calling me from Georgia, is the Savvy
00:56:07
move, but I'm like nobody calls me from Georgia unless they're
00:56:10
in my contacts already. So I just ignore, you know, all
00:56:14
calls from my home state which ends up being a great, screening
00:56:20
mechanism. There you go, everybody.
00:56:21
Go get him. Making sure that.
00:56:22
No never, alrighty, it was really to speak with you.
00:56:27
Yeah. Hopefully Tom be feeling better.
00:56:30
I think Tom would be curious to see how I do.
00:56:32
I think he'll be Maybe he'll be pleased that we get along.
00:56:40
So work on Sally, goodbye. Goodbye.
00:56:50
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. Goodbye.
00:56:34
Maybe he'll be pleased that we get along.
00:56:40
So work on Sally, goodbye. Goodbye.
00:56:50
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. Goodbye.