Sam Bankman-Fried, “SBF,” is bailing out failing crypto companies.
The question is whether he’s trying to stymie contagion risk from further roiling the crypto world or if he’s simply shopping for deals. Or maybe it’s both.
SBF’s crypto currency exchange company FTX gave crypto lender BlockFi a $400 million credit facility and struck a deal that allows FTX to buy BlockFi for as much as $240 million.
Meanwhile, SBF’s investment arm Alameda Research provided Voyager Digital $500 million in financing in June. (Voyager Digital suspended withdrawals and deposits on Friday.)
SBF also kicked the tires on crypto lender Celsius before raising questions about the company’s finances. (Celsius has frozen accounts and hired restructuring attorneys.)
The Block reported last week:
FTX began talks with Celsius about providing financial support or making an acquisition but decided against proceeding after looking at Celsius's finances, the sources said. Celsius had a $2 billion hole in its balance sheet and FTX found the company difficult to deal with, one of the sources said.
FTX has also reportedly considered buying Robinhood after buying up a 7.6% stake.
These days it seems like the crypto industry is eager for any sign of an SBF bailout:
On this week’s Dead Cat, Tom Dotan and I called in two experts. We brought on Jeff John Roberts, the author of Kings of Crypto and the crypto editor at Fortune, and friend of the show Teddy Schleifer, who is a reporter at Puck and an SBF obsessive.
We argued about SBF’s bailout strategy, his political ambitions, and the state of crypto regulation. Roberts accused me of being a “nocoiner” and I assured him that I was contentedly losing money on crypto currencies.
Give it a listen.
Read the automated transcript.
Background reading
Inside S.B.F.’s $12 Million Long Shot
A 30-Year-Old Crypto Billionaire Wants to Give His Fortune Away
Can Crypto’s Richest Man Stand the Cold?
Get full access to Newcomer at www.newcomer.co/subscribe
00:00:05
Welcome everybody, Welcome to Dead cat.
00:00:15
This is our newcomer, my co-host Tom do tan is here.
00:00:19
We're going to talk about crypto.
00:00:21
We've got two guests who I will introduce in one second to set
00:00:26
the stakes. Bitcoin is down 60%, this year
00:00:28
aetherium is down. 72% comparisons to the.com bubble
00:00:34
are ubiquitous and like any financial crisis.
00:00:37
You have the central government trying to pick up the pieces but
00:00:41
in this case the central government is seemingly one man,
00:00:45
Sam bank man freed the CEO of crypto exchange FTX you know FDX
00:00:51
gave this company block Phi, 250 million dollar credit facility
00:00:54
and is now trying to scoop them up and sort of a fire sale SPF
00:01:00
As he's known kick, the tires on Celsius before walking away, is
00:01:03
reportedly looking at Robin Hood, so they're all sorts of
00:01:07
roll up plays going on right now to help us understand that we've
00:01:11
got Jeff, John Roberts, the crypto editor of Fortune
00:01:14
Magazine and author of kings of crypto here.
00:01:17
And we've also got returning podcast, guest Teddy, schleifer
00:01:20
or Porter. A puck who is a bit of a SPF
00:01:24
whisper, I think. Yeah, thanks guys.
00:01:26
Thanks both for coming on. Great, to be here.
00:01:29
Thank you. I believe the term was
00:01:30
obsessive. Yes, a Civ, that's a No-No.
00:01:34
That's that's what you were saying.
00:01:36
You got to mention obliquely Teddy in a Bloomberg profile
00:01:39
about SPF. I believe when they said during
00:01:41
his daily routines, he's emailing with reporters from
00:01:44
fortune and that was it. Fortune.
00:01:45
I know. I know Puck was one and I was
00:01:48
like, I don't believe there's anyone else at puc.
00:01:49
That is that was you, right SPF? Right II, do not know.
00:01:54
I mean, he got he also knows my colleague cocoa and a little bit
00:01:56
but but sure this sort of SPF All up, I gave some of the
00:02:01
headlines but what stands out to you here?
00:02:03
What are the key things happening right now and crypto
00:02:06
world? And why is he is he doing this
00:02:09
because it's you know it's a money-making thing or it's a
00:02:11
save the crypto World from collapse sort of strategy or
00:02:14
what's your sense of what's going on here?
00:02:17
Is it all tourism or Capital? Yeah I think he'd probably like
00:02:20
to say it's altruism but I mean I think the end of the day you
00:02:22
know I don't think you do stuff like this out of your heart.
00:02:25
It is in his interest to sort of stop the bleeding and you know,
00:02:29
the question is can any back stop at all with some wondering
00:02:31
because there's, you know, just for back background.
00:02:34
You know, this all started with Tara's collapse and spin this
00:02:36
horrible downward spiral with like Celsius, you know, being
00:02:39
exposed as you know, over-leveraged and then you
00:02:43
know, block fives mean trouble. You remember these are like The
00:02:45
Darlings. These are some like the, you
00:02:47
know, the blue-chip names of the crypto sector.
00:02:50
So this is not good. Can I just quickly but in for a
00:02:53
definition here so, so Tara that it's collapse.
00:02:55
That was one of the stable coins, which was supposed to be
00:02:58
stable. She clearly was not Celsius was
00:03:01
a crypto lender, right? That was a go park your money,
00:03:05
get 18 percent return, you know, which obviously in a 1%
00:03:08
macroeconomic environment was not going to hold up and they
00:03:11
just kind of like overextended themselves and then, you know,
00:03:15
block fi they were slightly more respectful.
00:03:17
You know, borrowing at 8% returns and, you know, they're
00:03:20
just caught, you know, that they put out a lot of positions.
00:03:22
They were interned lending their stuff, but they put a lot of
00:03:25
their funds into something called stake to eat, which is
00:03:28
basically like a locked up term. Deposit and locked in a way that
00:03:31
you can't call the bank manager. So, you know, there's this
00:03:34
massive liquidity crises and you know, people are angry.
00:03:38
You know, this calls for Celsius, Co to go to jail.
00:03:41
It's ugly out there but you know, so far SPF to seems to
00:03:45
kind of, you know, be able to walk above at all and somehow
00:03:48
stay solvent. So did as we have do anything
00:03:51
with Luna, the Tara Luna collapse or he would, he said
00:03:54
that out. This is another stable coin now.
00:03:56
I think he avoided it, you know. Recall, you know Tara Is the
00:04:00
width is, this is idiotic mechanism to, you know, try to
00:04:03
Peg a currency. But just with, it was kind of a
00:04:05
Ponzi scheme backing it up, as long as it's going up at work,
00:04:09
can I ask a question because I'm certainly not an expert in kind
00:04:12
of the mechanics of crypto here. I mean, I mean Jeff, I mean, is
00:04:15
it is there when we say SPF, there's a distinction, right,
00:04:18
between FTX right, and Sam Sam's doing some of the stuff
00:04:22
personally, right? Like the Robin Hood steak,
00:04:25
that's not the corporate come. That's that's like Sam banquet
00:04:29
for you. He has like a small boy is a
00:04:31
fun, this doing it right? I'm not totally clear.
00:04:33
There's like Alameda research which I understand to be his
00:04:36
fund and there's FTX but I mean he's the majority owner of it so
00:04:39
I'm not sure why he's kind of like the hand behind it all
00:04:42
with. That's my question.
00:04:43
But that's you know, better. It's just fascinating that you
00:04:45
can have like, you know, you can have the icon of a leader in
00:04:48
crypto who kind of is able to use their personal balance sheet
00:04:51
to make, you know, investments in other crypto companies or
00:04:55
other. I mean, I wonder what the
00:04:57
conflict of interest rules here are.
00:04:59
And it's Unusual. Right?
00:05:00
It's not as if like Jeff Bezos. Has personally investing and
00:05:04
various Amazon, the competitors or stings like that.
00:05:07
Well, I'm Bloomberg reported that I think stay Peg spfs well
00:05:12
at like 8 billion right now. I mean, who knows?
00:05:14
Hello. Yeah, I was I'm very curious
00:05:17
obviously with every crypto gazillionaire like how liquid
00:05:19
these people are, right? I mean what is that is that
00:05:22
based on the lacks FTX valuation?
00:05:25
Is that based on, you know, where Sam's money actually is
00:05:29
part Worked. I mean, obviously, he's spending
00:05:32
an extraordinary amount on a kind of the things I'm covering
00:05:34
politics and philanthropy and stuff like that.
00:05:36
And I've been very curious about how the precipitous fall in his
00:05:39
net worth at least in theory would affect these sort of
00:05:42
Ventures. But I don't know.
00:05:44
I mean, I mean it's interesting. You look like a Bloomberg
00:05:46
billionaires index, the how they they have these interesting kind
00:05:50
of confidence ratings for how confident they are.
00:05:53
Or you may remember these from from being there just about like
00:05:57
how confident someone is and you know what Jeff Jesus is worth,
00:06:00
what you on musk is worth and the crypto people.
00:06:03
I thought the confidence ratings are always all over the place,
00:06:05
right? They have a 2 Star on this on
00:06:08
Sandy's. Yeah?
00:06:09
What. A great system.
00:06:10
I didn't realize they did that. I should do that.
00:06:12
Yeah. Wow.
00:06:12
That's good. It's good.
00:06:13
Ratings are much better. I think its new.
00:06:15
I think that relatively neat smart.
00:06:17
I mean, this is gonna go off on a tangent.
00:06:19
I don't think we should go down but just for our listeners out
00:06:22
there, billionaire, wealth assessment, if it's not based on
00:06:27
majority public company owned is, A huge amount of bullshit
00:06:31
and and people sort of like that people really should know that
00:06:33
like the the Peter teal Network calculation like definitely had
00:06:38
to be adjusted by when like the tax returns came out that showed
00:06:41
about his Roth IRA which I don't think was a class anywhere.
00:06:45
Accounted for I generally assumed that like like I think
00:06:48
Jeff Bezos is probably worth around whatever they have met
00:06:50
two hundred billion dollars. It's based on a stake in Amazon
00:06:52
and that's publicly disclosed like I'm sure it's ballpark
00:06:56
right? But lots of other people I would
00:06:58
not be surprised if You really know how much John doar is
00:07:01
really worth. Like I mean it depends on how
00:07:03
right we'll do a whole separate episode on because I have a lot
00:07:05
of thoughts but yeah but going back to the SPF for sex is
00:07:08
Judith. The Shred kryptos, even more of
00:07:10
a black box because you know we know how much a rough idea of
00:07:13
how much trading profits FTX the platform might have, but how
00:07:17
much that goes into spfs pocket then also in case of crypto and
00:07:22
treasury management, it's like one day he's like has x amount
00:07:26
of theorem and Bitcoin which was at 16 you know, 67 outs to
00:07:29
20. Seven how like, you know, did
00:07:31
he, how much that did he sell? And maybe flip into stable coins
00:07:34
or even dollars and when did he do it?
00:07:37
And that's just totally opaque. Like, we know like Amazon.
00:07:39
Shares, your down. Bezos Is wealth.
00:07:41
Gonna go down and we have a rough idea how much?
00:07:43
But, you know any we know when he sells them but in the case of
00:07:47
like the crypto camera is seeing the file.
00:07:49
If you sell tablet company, right?
00:07:51
But you don't if you own a crypto and for a luminary like
00:07:55
SPF for him to sell, you know, a significant stake in any
00:07:58
cryptocurrency is We're going to have an effect on the market
00:08:01
because it would show some sort of lack of confidence in it so
00:08:03
it's extremely relevant and important to know how often and
00:08:07
at what level he's holding any of these coins, right?
00:08:09
Yeah. Well I mean, this current, you
00:08:11
know, catastrophe is bringing as always calls for more
00:08:13
transparency to like, what the hell's under the hood, how
00:08:16
leveraged are these companies? And you know, I'm just hoping
00:08:19
the next crypto growth cycle, they'll be new rules in place
00:08:22
your best practices because now it's just like, you know,
00:08:25
cowboys and black boxes and who knows what's going on.
00:08:28
So, I want to Circle back to the This idea of Sam Venkman freed
00:08:31
as kind of the de facto, whatever backstop or almost FDIC
00:08:36
of the you have the exchange world and maybe broader crypto
00:08:40
world. You know, we kind of asked this
00:08:41
question of is it altruism or is it, you know, him just kind of
00:08:44
swooping in for what could be Savvy Investments or
00:08:47
Acquisitions? I mean, what have you seen so
00:08:49
far in these moves? Let's dive into the block, find
00:08:52
one because that one is fairly controversial.
00:08:54
What do you see? As you know, the state of
00:08:56
affairs with block Phi and you know, FTX is And bank and free.
00:09:00
Its decision to want to acquire this thing for Solace.
00:09:03
That 250 Dollar Loan, which factors into it?
00:09:05
Somehow. I assume that's secured by by
00:09:09
block flies. You know, non liquid assets, but
00:09:12
in terms of the matter Meadow stretchy, what he's up to, I
00:09:14
mean, yeah, obviously this could help stabilize the current
00:09:17
chaotic conditions, but, you know, I would so interesting to
00:09:20
me. I'd love to know Teddy's
00:09:21
thoughts on this is, of course, my expertise is coinbase.
00:09:24
Who's just basically dominated the crypto Market since day one,
00:09:27
and the u.s. coin basis in trouble.
00:09:28
I mean, I don't think they're going Bankrupt or anything, but
00:09:30
they're certainly not acquiring anything, they're cutting staff.
00:09:33
And what am I theory for? What ft, a car.
00:09:36
What Sam is up to is, especially with Robin Hood.
00:09:39
Look at all those cool, you know, customer lists you could
00:09:40
acquire on the cheap and Robin Hood to gives them a path to,
00:09:44
you know, selling a crease on the blockchain and did it with
00:09:47
like Celsius and block fire. I mean, what a great way to
00:09:49
acquire a whole bunch of customer accounts once things
00:09:52
stabilize. And then I think, you know, he
00:09:54
could be the new Top Dog in crypto in the US.
00:09:58
I mean, I mean, you could see he's made us.
00:09:59
Or Sean like Global derivatives trading, but, you know, I think
00:10:02
there's a big play for, you know, retail, you know, retail
00:10:06
participants in the US market and what a good cheap way to
00:10:09
acquire like millions. Millions of customers on the
00:10:12
cheap. That's, that's one Theory I
00:10:14
have, but I think Teddy Long's bettered me.
00:10:15
So I'd love to know your thoughts.
00:10:17
Yeah. It is, it fair to think?
00:10:18
I mean, you think of to post a question back to you, Ma'am, did
00:10:22
you think of FTX is like a coin based competitor?
00:10:25
Like knows exactly what I was gonna like FDX, coinbase
00:10:28
Finance. And I don't wanna put you on the
00:10:31
spot. But yeah.
00:10:32
How much do those companies all overlap and there are services.
00:10:36
But the big difference is coin basis in reality the only big
00:10:40
retail player in the u.s. Robin Hood tried and they have
00:10:43
some luck, you know what, their Dogecoin run but then they're a
00:10:45
basket case now, but I don't think it's a coincidence that
00:10:49
FTX is putting their logo on every umpire major-league
00:10:53
baseball. You know, I mean and you know,
00:10:55
Sam is not a fool. I think the long-term game is to
00:10:58
muscle into the US Market by now, it's never going to happen.
00:11:02
Like, you know, the reporting of like blindness us which is like
00:11:04
basically a potemkin village to like blow smoke up the regulars
00:11:08
ass and like they're Radioactive from a regulatory point of view.
00:11:13
Whereas amazingly SPF is also kept very clean nose throughout
00:11:16
all this. Like, even Maxine Waters likes
00:11:18
him. So, you know, I just think he's
00:11:20
very poised to be the first major Challenger to coinbase the
00:11:23
u.s. to you. You see, you see basically
00:11:26
buying these distressed assets as Art of hey like it's a way to
00:11:30
bye-bye customer growth, right. You know that these are people
00:11:34
who you know alternate alternate universe might buy and it might
00:11:37
have my trade you know Bitcoin through coinbase and now they're
00:11:42
in the FTX funnel and then boom. Yeah.
00:11:45
Or whatever you want to do with them.
00:11:46
I mean you get the strip customer lists and if indeed
00:11:49
long-term, you know, all of us are going to be like, you know,
00:11:51
staking and you know, equities are going to be moving on to
00:11:53
blockchain and stuff like that. If you're playing the long game,
00:11:56
you know I think it's I think it's a very smart idea.
00:12:00
If he has a capital to do it and this is hardly unique to crypto
00:12:02
to whenever there's you know, massive distress the industry.
00:12:05
If the top players got the capital in the pockets to go,
00:12:08
pick up the pieces and incorporate them into the
00:12:10
Empire. I mean you know that's what Big
00:12:12
Tex is done for years. You know, I don't think it's
00:12:14
purely to you know, to to stabilize the industry.
00:12:16
I think he's got a long term vision and we're starting to
00:12:19
seem execute on it. How do you kind of countenance,
00:12:22
Teddy spfs, political donations and his being one of the most
00:12:27
active billionaires? He's in Democratic politics with
00:12:31
his you know business interests. I mean Jeff was mentioning that
00:12:36
Maxine Waters seems to be a big fan of his.
00:12:38
I don't know. That's the first I've heard of
00:12:40
that although it makes sense. Has he donated specifically to
00:12:43
like the D Triple C or I mean? Do you see this as like a very
00:12:47
Savvy move on his part to shore up good relations with you know
00:12:52
what might be a more sympathetic party.
00:12:54
Sam is doing lots of things in politics, that aren't
00:12:57
necessarily. All interrelated.
00:13:01
So I mean, you two buckets, there's like the straight up
00:13:05
crypto work. That Sam is doing which I think,
00:13:08
you know, you can be as cynical as you want about his desire to
00:13:12
capture the regulators and politicians who may have an
00:13:18
interest in regulating crypto. I mean it's a Sam, you know it
00:13:21
has donated a couple million bucks to a crypto Super PAC that
00:13:26
is also been backed by increase in Horowitz.
00:13:28
It's called I as in GM, as in the, you know, crypto speak the
00:13:33
good morning Institute basically.
00:13:35
So Sam and I mean that that's not any different than like you
00:13:37
know your standard you know, Facebook CEO or not Facebook but
00:13:41
like you know just big Tech leader you know tries to often.
00:13:46
It's the re top and playable on mostly donating to you know the
00:13:50
the committee's that regulate Tesla right stuff like that.
00:13:52
And Sam is you know spending a lot of time as Jeff is kind of
00:13:56
knows is spending a lot of time in Washington.
00:13:59
Washington trying to, you know, get crypto Regulators to, you
00:14:04
know, have a light touch. He's called for more crypto
00:14:07
regulation. He's testified a bunch of times
00:14:10
before Congress. Like that's the standard, you
00:14:13
know, CEO of a big company basic Washington lobbying that's
00:14:17
bucket. One bucket to, which I think,
00:14:20
Sam critics don't really believe is a separate.
00:14:23
Bucket is efforts that Sam is taking to basically promote
00:14:28
effective. Altruism or the belief that sort
00:14:32
of a dumb it to dumb it down, simplify it basically.
00:14:35
Utilitarianism that there should be more money spent on
00:14:39
preventing things that cause harm to mass numbers of people,
00:14:42
such as nuclear disasters. Future pandemics the killing of
00:14:48
animals effective altruism is very in Vogue among the Silicon
00:14:52
Valley set and Sam who you know, as we know is only 30 years old
00:14:57
and you know this company is still private Sam.
00:14:59
Spending tens of millions of dollars.
00:15:02
If not hundreds of millions of dollars on affected altruist
00:15:04
causes in part through politics. Sam is now is funding write up a
00:15:09
ballot measure in California. He spent 12 million dollars on a
00:15:12
house primary race for this gotten Carrick Flynn and Oregon
00:15:16
lost. I like 30 points pretty big
00:15:18
disaster. Well, yeah, I know effective
00:15:19
altruism is actually very smart PR framing because you're like,
00:15:24
well, I failed but it was a long shot and if you do the math, the
00:15:27
return on the investment was Eight.
00:15:29
So smart in a modeled version of reality, but not based on sort
00:15:34
of political conventional wisdom.
00:15:36
Which honestly right. Good.
00:15:38
Good on you to escape the framing of political reporters
00:15:42
and how they try to trap people to only betting on things that
00:15:45
can be successes. Yes.
00:15:47
But those are, those are those sort of to those are two
00:15:49
buckets, right? I mean, there's the there's I
00:15:51
mean, and, and there's the the work he's doing on crypto, which
00:15:54
is more straightforward and there's the work he's doing,
00:15:56
like in his personal capacity that is not as the Ft ex-ceo
00:16:01
just as someone who has a lot of money and thinks a lot about
00:16:04
ways to make an impact in the world and like now to the
00:16:08
recipients or to Washington at large, is it so easy to separate
00:16:12
those two things like at the end of the day, you know, keeping
00:16:15
Sam on your good side, whether that's through supporting kind
00:16:20
of pandemic prevention, or whether it's supporting, you
00:16:22
know, a light regulation. On crypto like Sam is clearly an
00:16:25
important person, right? And there's nothing Democrats
00:16:28
want more than this sort of. True Believer.
00:16:30
You know, that's like, oh, I'm I have a bunch of Crusades to put
00:16:33
me on your team because I really believe it, which is going to
00:16:36
get much more affection that. I mean in a way that you know,
00:16:41
Ilan represent sort of behaving like the actual sort of trump
00:16:45
style Republicans in a way that draws their attention SBF.
00:16:50
I think behaves like Democrats would actually like sort of a
00:16:54
democratic billionaire to do it. It's like I have these strong
00:16:56
principles. I have my little Crusades and I
00:16:59
believe in policy like he seems like he's an institutionalist,
00:17:02
which is very interesting coming from the crypto world, right?
00:17:05
I mean, how does he fit into the broader libertarian crypto
00:17:09
mindset of believing that this is part of a movement?
00:17:13
That's going to burn it all down.
00:17:14
And take the institutions that have, you know, withheld capital
00:17:18
from the people who deserve it and all of the kind of
00:17:21
anti-establishment leanings that these guys have, you know, one
00:17:24
of the richest most prominent people seems to be like buddies
00:17:27
with Maxine Waters and Needing to house races.
00:17:30
I mean it's useless to say that you said I just because he's
00:17:33
engaging in pot like engaging them, frankly.
00:17:35
Yes, yeah. And partisan politics to.
00:17:38
Yeah, I'm Phantom in for a sec though.
00:17:40
I just think the thing we have to know about Sam, which makes
00:17:42
it so different from the other. Crypto Founders is parents.
00:17:45
His pedigree is Mom's the Stanford law professor.
00:17:47
Who I've heard Works closely with a group called mind the
00:17:51
gap, which is to serve about, kind of like fundraising
00:17:54
operation for the Democratic party and his father.
00:17:56
Reportedly like, advises Lisbeth warrant So, you know, he's out
00:18:00
of kind of that milieu, which is very different than the others
00:18:03
and that's also too. I think adding to his white
00:18:05
knight ability because the other, you know, crypto Founders
00:18:08
are really alienating people. CZ is like, you know, got sort
00:18:11
of like eggs. A lot of people are Whispering.
00:18:13
It's a criminal operation. I'm not saying that's true.
00:18:16
And then like he got the CEO of cracking, Jesse Powell other
00:18:20
tweeting, like stuff about, you know, abortion and like, young
00:18:23
people accusing him of flirting with like Neo Nazism, and then
00:18:26
Brian Armstrong, you'll like it. Get out of my Pretty much.
00:18:30
Yeah. And then Brian Armstrong who is
00:18:32
like, you know, forever, like picking culture war fights with
00:18:35
the New York Times. And it's the coin was see ya.
00:18:38
Whether he's right or not. I mean, it's just like, it's not
00:18:41
going to help the initial Sakai help your company.
00:18:43
You know, the New York Times, is not going to stop doing what
00:18:45
they do. You know, might be frustrating
00:18:47
to you, but he just seems to kind of like keep walking into
00:18:50
these, like political hand. Grenades be a black lives matter
00:18:53
or what, you know, whatever it is and whereas SPF is done a
00:18:57
very good job of you know, step Pat staying above that.
00:19:00
However I'll turn it back over to you guys but what I'm curious
00:19:03
about is come November when the Republicans are almost certainly
00:19:06
going to take Congress again and you know, do they really want
00:19:10
Joe Biden's? Biggest you know because and the
00:19:12
Republicans are more friendly to crypto right now you know
00:19:14
libertarianism blah blah blah. What happens when the most
00:19:18
prominent guy in cryptos, Joe Biden's, biggest donor.
00:19:20
Is he going to be the biggest, do we know that is, was last
00:19:23
time around? I believe that, I mean, tension
00:19:25
on that but I, he lost he was, he's the biggest like, CEO.
00:19:30
There's a bunch of qualifications up and I mean but
00:19:32
he's way up there. Yeah, yeah, sure.
00:19:34
I mean like you know I know Eric has made fun of me privately for
00:19:37
like being this is an obsessive. I mean, the reality is he's
00:19:41
like, you know, I think at this point he's probably the second
00:19:43
or third biggest donor in the midterms right now.
00:19:45
I mean like he's up, he's up there with Peter.
00:19:46
Thiel's like people are obsessed with Peter teal'c spirituals
00:19:48
important. Like Sam is spending a
00:19:50
tremendous amount of money like it's this is not people call
00:19:53
obsessing over like a five hundred thousand dollar a year
00:19:56
donor like Sam is now in the 20th 39.
00:19:59
Dollar range. And if you include is lobbying
00:20:00
efforts, like he's up, he's up there and part of this is that
00:20:05
like, he's just genuinely interesting.
00:20:07
Like what he's funding is stuff. That is, you know,
00:20:10
unconventional off the walls. Like he obviously.
00:20:13
I think part of the obsession with him, say, part of it is
00:20:16
exam. As like, cultivated this image,
00:20:17
that Jeff is kind of referring to, right?
00:20:19
Where he wear shorts all the time.
00:20:20
His hair is kind of crazy. He obviously is like, very
00:20:23
media-friendly right in a way that like kids, like it's like
00:20:28
Pete Buddha judge, like you Lots of coverage because like, he
00:20:30
engages with reporters a lot, right?
00:20:32
And like, and, you know, I see him like, take interviews
00:20:36
interviews, from like random fucking newsletters, right?
00:20:39
And like, there was some story, I remember the time is, did
00:20:42
about like, the billionaire is taxed proposal and like Sam,
00:20:46
like, it was very willing to be like the spokesman for
00:20:48
billionaires. I was like, he's very much.
00:20:50
He's very much clearly enamored with the media and like, you
00:20:53
know, he's young and maybe he'll get tired of it when he liked
00:20:56
suffers, its first hit piece or something like that, but like
00:20:59
Like part part of it is Sam cultivating an image, but part
00:21:04
of it, I think is genuine and the fact that he is a massively
00:21:08
significant donor with, you know, obviously very substantive
00:21:11
and issues before Congress and is like, I think part of it is
00:21:16
him leaning into it and making it like, you know, having fun as
00:21:20
like a political media mocker and part of it is just like the
00:21:25
fact that he's actually doing real shit.
00:21:26
When lot mostly people, most people aren't right to be clear.
00:21:29
Most people are not actually that interesting but to Jeff's
00:21:32
question, I mean, he's also built up this, you know, public
00:21:37
Persona and media presence during mostly during Biden's
00:21:41
presidency where he is sort of been on the side of power.
00:21:43
And so what does the world look like 44?
00:21:46
SBF, when, you know, Biden is on his back foot and he's suddenly
00:21:50
getting, you know, even the Republic, right?
00:21:52
It's the specifics of Jeff question.
00:21:54
I mean, what do you see happening post?
00:21:56
Midterms sure. I mean, look, I mean he is he's
00:21:59
not actually that. Like he is a, a center-left, you
00:22:04
know, politician. I mean, he is donated to try to
00:22:08
set it up, Jonah. I mean, he's donated to
00:22:10
Democrats, but, you know, he, I don't think he's that liberal
00:22:14
conventionally and yeah, I mean, to be true to be fair.
00:22:17
Like that's true of every, every kind of donor right now or every
00:22:21
corporate leader, who's kind of made inroads during the Byron
00:22:23
FTX coinbase by. And these these companies
00:22:27
interests are like, fairly aligned in the deregulation.
00:22:31
So, Seems smart to me that you would have you have True
00:22:36
Believer, like Democrats, and then you have sort of coinbase
00:22:38
or Brian's meeting posting pictures with, you know, Paul
00:22:42
Ryan. And then you have sort of even
00:22:44
sort of more, right people and Kraken and like having that sort
00:22:48
of as an industry. I'm not saying they all got
00:22:50
together and sort of assign their roles.
00:22:53
It's almost better that they all play sort of a cheerleader for
00:22:58
each side so that they have friends then If they all sort of
00:23:02
half-cocked it is that right? By the way, I post Lots about
00:23:04
Jeff and Teddy, I mean that they, you know, the three
00:23:07
exchanges are necessarily anti-regulation, because it
00:23:10
would seem like with the market and environment as it is right
00:23:13
now, there's got to be some sort of a push for an FDIC like
00:23:17
organizations. Like, you know, Facebook is
00:23:19
always like, you know, we support modern internet
00:23:21
regulations, right? I've been part of, this is like
00:23:23
any company you get entrenched like that and regulations,
00:23:26
right? Sure.
00:23:27
For the biggest players, right? Right, right.
00:23:29
It's all being like, I don't know.
00:23:30
There's like an element of bullshit.
00:23:31
That like everyone you know Belize.
00:23:33
I mean I mean the the key thing happened at regulation level
00:23:35
right now is there's a spill from Cynthia lummis and Kirsten
00:23:39
gillibrand to try to basically have lots of crypto regulated by
00:23:43
the cftc rather than by the SEC. The small weak regulator rather
00:23:48
than the song regulator and we're obviously over
00:23:51
generalizing here but like generally, the crypto industry
00:23:54
is, you know, in favor of the bill and, you know, and is that
00:23:59
because Tom dancer question is that Has like they are pro
00:24:03
regulation or anti-regulation. Like I think obviously they sort
00:24:06
of know that there's going to be some regulation of this industry
00:24:09
and you might as well you know, handicap it or kneecap it from
00:24:14
from the start, right? But be fair like, in that
00:24:17
regulatory climate, like the chairman of the SEC, Gary
00:24:20
Gensler is implacably, and my opinion stupidly hostile to
00:24:23
crypto. He's tried to seize on an issue
00:24:25
to ingratiate himself with a very powerful Democrat, namely
00:24:29
Lisbeth Warren and so he has been too.
00:24:31
Ferociously attacking and it all turns and not being remotely
00:24:35
constructive, you know, I mean, obviously, you know it needs
00:24:38
some regulation but you know on the rumors of him aspiring to be
00:24:41
triggered. Treasury secretary are true,
00:24:43
talk about Gensler here, so he's willing to throw the crypto
00:24:46
industry under the boss to advance his own career.
00:24:49
And in that climate, I understand where the crypto
00:24:51
industry is like, you know, understandably frustrated and
00:24:53
pissed off, but, you know, yeah, of course.
00:24:55
You're right. They're simply trying to get the
00:24:57
regulation that's best for them and get big and then game the
00:25:00
regulatory. Structure to favor themselves
00:25:02
and send comments that says every industry does.
00:25:05
But crypto is that a bit of a special juncture given that you
00:25:08
know, the the implacable hostility the SEC and clearly
00:25:11
more Pro regulation than you. I think, I mean, I guess I'm
00:25:17
very cynical the SEC because it's like much easier to crack
00:25:20
down after everything collapses. It's like he hasn't done that
00:25:25
much, right? I mean, maybe now that
00:25:27
everybody's lost money is going to make everybody's life
00:25:30
miserable. Yeah, seems unfair that Eric's
00:25:34
favorite. This is Eric's.
00:25:35
Favorite arguing on the show, your favorite anti-regulation
00:25:37
are you just at the SEC acts that they act after bad things
00:25:42
happen? Government only comes in on the
00:25:43
way down? It's like, oh yeah, I guess it
00:25:46
was bad. People lost money.
00:25:48
It's like weren't you supposed to enforce rules so that people
00:25:51
didn't lose money in the first place rather than just say
00:25:54
pointing to the money-losing and say nah, they're the bad guys.
00:25:58
I mean that drives me crazy. Now what he could have done it
00:26:01
Has given sir a roadmap for. What do you do you know the
00:26:03
industry complaints? Think rightly that he's saying
00:26:05
regulation enforcement he's like well does follow the rules which
00:26:08
are extremely vague and have them are you articulate since
00:26:10
2014 and if you guess wrong we're going to sue you you know
00:26:13
and that's I think frustrating and then I think coinbase tried
00:26:16
to offer very modest like 4% like you know interest earning
00:26:20
thing on stable coins. It's a very like unambitious
00:26:23
thing and, you know, freaked out said like no no.
00:26:25
Well while the while or whatever crazy stuff is like popping out
00:26:28
all around him and like he totally missed the Stable coin
00:26:31
collapse. So to seems he's out to you know
00:26:34
kind of stimuli everything without providing a constructive
00:26:37
roadmap forward because he's just you know, in my opinion
00:26:41
venal an entirely a moral ambitious person.
00:26:45
Yeah. I mean it's classic that the,
00:26:47
you know, big is sort of company, you know, it coinbase,
00:26:51
big public company that wants to be in good favor of The
00:26:53
Regulators ends up being the one punished the most even though,
00:26:58
like you're saying, yeah, it's trying to behave Fair relatively
00:27:02
responsibly compared to the rest of the industry.
00:27:05
And yeah I mean all right. Yeah.
00:27:08
Eric as an sdn driessen whisper hear from the on the sandwich
00:27:11
Berg I mean what do you make of just their kind of lobbying on
00:27:15
this issue. In general just the fact that
00:27:19
like I was struck the other day when there was that you know
00:27:23
Mark and been donated a million dollars each to this crypto
00:27:28
Supermarket I mentioned earlier, Jesus Marc Andreessen and Ben
00:27:30
Horowitz. Yeah, yeah, my founders of yeah,
00:27:34
I think it was, it's their only political contributions of size
00:27:37
that have been disclosed, like, in the last five or ten years.
00:27:41
And I know there's been a lot of reporting just on the ways in
00:27:43
which injuries and is engaging in Washington.
00:27:45
But what do you just, what do you make of?
00:27:46
Just their kind of political, you know, it's to some extent,
00:27:50
you know, they are pro crypto large, right.
00:27:53
And if they have tons of Investments I dig, it is more
00:27:55
sort of conventional corporate influence.
00:27:58
We will hire the experts. We will hire Hire former people
00:28:02
from the agencies so that you will trust them.
00:28:06
And I do think, and driessen has been able to build build up,
00:28:09
sort of a reputation for being some of the adults in the room
00:28:12
in crypto. So if you're going to regulate
00:28:15
it and you want to turn, you know, it's like okay we'll have
00:28:18
our own draft legislation. I think what's interesting that
00:28:21
it is that instead of being inside of a Facebook, Microsoft
00:28:26
Apple, some big company. You know, forming the internet
00:28:29
Association Andreessen is Jane. Okay, we're making startup
00:28:33
Investments and before these companies are huge, we need to
00:28:37
sort of be the lobbying organization on behalf of all of
00:28:41
them. Are I guess they probably don't
00:28:42
use the word lobbying they give policy policy advice.
00:28:45
I mean, Katie Hans sort of playing trying to play a similar
00:28:49
role where it's we're gonna we're going to be the advocates
00:28:53
for an industry that if it's regulated.
00:28:55
Properly will make a bunch of money.
00:28:57
I think Andreessen has such great coverage of crypto That
00:29:01
it's obvious. Why it's good for them.
00:29:03
I think Katie hon. You know, it's still to be seen
00:29:06
whether she can show that she's going to win deals based on
00:29:10
doing sort of influence peddling.
00:29:12
This probably good for the whole industry and not necessarily
00:29:15
anyone portfolio company. And she hired Chris lehane who
00:29:19
we all know is, you know, you know a political guy who knows
00:29:24
his way around Washington and you know, she's former head of
00:29:26
communications and policy sorry at Airbnb.
00:29:29
And a yeah as well. Yeah.
00:29:31
He was you know, one of her first hires and like what is
00:29:33
that, what does that signify about kind of?
00:29:35
Yeah, you know, to some extent right?
00:29:37
It's just like just smart business right to hire hire,
00:29:41
experts who, you know, can help you craft regulations in ways
00:29:44
that are helpful to your portfolio companies.
00:29:46
That's just like, right? It's pretty simple.
00:29:48
But it's also, you know, it's not as if, like, part of this is
00:29:51
because the industry is so new. Right.
00:29:53
It's not as if like Sequoia is like lobbying on like,
00:29:56
e-commerce before Congress, right?
00:29:58
Because it's like the in, there's, there's Not that much
00:30:01
space for them to, you know, throw their elbows around.
00:30:04
But an increase in my could easily become like the most
00:30:07
important player in Washington on this issue because there's a
00:30:10
vacuum. It also I mean that's an
00:30:12
interesting comparison. You make to, you know, Sequoia
00:30:15
during the rise of e-commerce. And I guess what makes crypto so
00:30:18
interesting here is that there's so much more individual you
00:30:22
know, money at stake that the you know, the regular person can
00:30:25
get involved with that you would sort of look towards regulation
00:30:28
to protect their just really hasn't been another.
00:30:31
Freeze, right? I mean, e-commerce, you wouldn't
00:30:33
see Regular People investing in these companies on their way up
00:30:36
and getting fleeced, you know, as whatever.
00:30:39
E toys falls apart. I mean, maybe as a public
00:30:41
company but it wasn't the same thing as crypto, which is such a
00:30:44
widespread, you know, individualized investment that,
00:30:48
you know, it's just an interesting State of Affairs,
00:30:51
when it comes to the expectations of regulators for
00:30:54
other kind of rising Tech Industries.
00:30:55
Also, the stakes are higher with crypto because it touches the
00:30:58
financial rails. And like you know, the banks are
00:31:00
you're fighting the Thanks. I mean, who did like, you know,
00:31:02
pets.com have to fight really, you know, retailers.
00:31:06
Oh my God. But like the banks have a lot
00:31:07
more muscle in DC. And then also the other thing is
00:31:10
like, you know, the great game in terms of like, you know,
00:31:12
you're messing with the national currency system, like the two
00:31:15
most important progress to stay in power or the military
00:31:18
followed by the US dollar which keeps Americans borrowing low.
00:31:22
So there's a lot of like kind of hawks in you know the defense
00:31:25
department and in treasury who are like we gotta like smother
00:31:28
this thing in the in his crib because Is and it's reality is
00:31:32
China. And Russia have also been
00:31:33
encouraging crypto stuff as a way to like dislodge the US
00:31:37
dollar as the world's Reserve currency.
00:31:39
I'm sorry. So we can go and unlike some
00:31:40
weird rabbit hole but but China is China, is Crackdown right?
00:31:44
But I'm saying there, Fanning like competitors to the dollar
00:31:48
in the form of cryptocurrencies. I mean, if crypto really takes
00:31:51
off and people don't need the US dollar anymore, that's a shirt
00:31:54
of a geopolitical catastrophe for Uncle Sam.
00:31:57
So you know that it's not like a binary thing but they're
00:32:00
interesting. That's the Worried, like, if
00:32:01
you're sitting there trying to like sell, you know, pet food
00:32:04
online is different than trying to like, you know, challenge the
00:32:07
national currency to frame up like the regular, I totally
00:32:11
agree with what you're saying, I mean, to frame this up, you
00:32:13
know, the Uber strategy which I think is representative of the
00:32:17
broader Tech strategy is get penetration fast enough before
00:32:23
Regulators can do anything. Then there's adoption, consumers
00:32:26
are attached to it including politicians and then no one's
00:32:30
really. To ban it.
00:32:31
And then you have the leverage rather than asking for
00:32:34
permission before things start crypto, as obviously succeeded
00:32:38
in that playbook in that, it's sort of deployed and out there
00:32:41
before there's any real action. I think the question mark for me
00:32:45
is, how does that strategy play out in a huge downturn, right?
00:32:50
It's one thing, like, if Uber is still roaring, people love it.
00:32:54
But in the crypto world where people are losing a lot of
00:32:56
money, and a lot of consumers, feel screwed.
00:33:00
Sure. You have the political
00:33:01
penetration, you know, with like SPF like we've been talking
00:33:05
about. But if you have all these
00:33:06
regular people who've lost a lot of money on it, does that sort
00:33:10
of deploy and then Lobby, strategy work?
00:33:13
I don't know, like Jeff, how much do you think it's possible?
00:33:16
Like, are you open to the idea? They'll like core features of
00:33:19
the crypto World, get sort of band out of existence in the
00:33:23
United States. Or how much existential
00:33:25
regulatory risk? Do you think we still face?
00:33:28
I think we're past that and also because the it's This is too big
00:33:31
and too, you know, there's just too many people working in it.
00:33:34
But also, I think the banks are moving in right now, my readers
00:33:37
next era is going to be stable coins which was just a superior
00:33:40
way to move money around and watching the Goldman Sachs JP
00:33:43
Morgan's and Fidelity, you know, get a piece of that.
00:33:46
So you know it's in terms of what it means for retail
00:33:48
investors TBD. But you know I you know I don't
00:33:52
think it's going to be crushed out of existence you know I
00:33:55
think the next you know half years maybe really Rocky but
00:33:58
it's just even now after all the Carnage, it's It's much bigger
00:34:01
than it was two years ago, you know, even after all the
00:34:04
disasters and it's just, you know, this University classes,
00:34:07
graduating, all these like blockchain native people.
00:34:09
You just not gonna stuff this back in the bottle again, but
00:34:11
the shape it takes is a jump ball, you know, between the
00:34:14
banks and the traditional Financial system and, you know,
00:34:17
the whole lot of other things and how it's going to shake out.
00:34:19
I'm sure the crypto nightmare would be sure it's not getting X
00:34:24
regulated out of existence, but it's regulated such a way that
00:34:27
only like JPMorgan and Citibank can comply.
00:34:31
Something. And then then that's yeah,
00:34:33
tough. Well that also seems to be one
00:34:35
of the major risks that the crypto companies have right now
00:34:38
when it comes to regulation is that they're not coming at it
00:34:40
from a place of strength. Like if this discussion were
00:34:43
happening while crypto was you know on the up and gaining more
00:34:46
and more value and people weren't, you know, losing
00:34:49
billions of dollars than maybe they would have a better kind of
00:34:52
Leverage in the negotiations but where is it is now, you know
00:34:55
they're basically like Eric has said multiple times you know
00:34:59
Regulators are coming at it as they're on their way down.
00:35:01
Down. So it's going to be completely
00:35:02
in the, you know, Power Center of all the institutions to say
00:35:06
that we're going to write the rules in favor of our interests.
00:35:10
Because what are you going to do if we don't, you have absolutely
00:35:13
no business what I mean. I mean they're playing the
00:35:15
crypto Industries playing a long game here.
00:35:17
They've got more sophisticated DC and like there's that, you
00:35:19
know, llamas gillibrand. Bill that you know they'll
00:35:22
notice I'm going to pass this year but they're on a kind of
00:35:24
34-year timeline is what they're doing and you know there's
00:35:28
there's they're building allies and I think in the long term
00:35:30
there. You know, and in the short term
00:35:32
they're simply going to write it out.
00:35:34
Wait for the Republicans to take Congress and you know, just lay
00:35:37
groundwork to to get the legislation through.
00:35:40
I think this is you know, the prospect of them being crushed
00:35:42
entirely is diminished a lot, although you know, the next
00:35:45
couple months, who knows but Eddie.
00:35:47
Where did the the Peter teal, acolytes it on all of these
00:35:50
issues, you know? I guess I'm making of Masters.
00:35:53
And yeah, and JD Vance. Well, I was, I was in, I was
00:35:57
going to bring this up to it to just kind of ran out the
00:35:59
political discussion. I mean like, The right more
00:36:03
broadly is like, very Pro Bitcoin, like Bitcoin Maxi, you
00:36:06
know, that's there. The conservatives are right,
00:36:09
Peter, teal, promised us. It would be bigger than the
00:36:11
entire value of the u.s. S&P 500, I think.
00:36:15
Okay. Look like ladies Market, I don't
00:36:18
know. Yeah, some huge something
00:36:19
absurd. Yeah.
00:36:20
But but like, the politic is issue.
00:36:22
I mean, like, yeah, I mean there's the t 0 acolytes who
00:36:24
are, you know, very Pro Bitcoin and like you know for instance
00:36:27
Blake Masters has like done NF. He's of 0 to 1 which is his
00:36:33
book, you know. Very that's old trying to Sandra
00:36:36
copies with Peter teal, he's dumb.
00:36:37
Like nft is to do campaign fundraising which is like a new
00:36:40
frontier and certainly an Innovative way to raise money
00:36:43
for a campaign Innovative way to use your mega donor, benefactor
00:36:47
share benefit. But you know, there also are,
00:36:49
like far-left people who are, you know, somewhat crypto
00:36:53
curious, right? And, to some extent, this is
00:36:55
generational right? Like, you know, Jeff brought up
00:36:58
Warren earlier. I mean, they're sort of the Old
00:37:00
Guard. Guard of people who are anti
00:37:02
crypto and there's like the younger generation.
00:37:05
I mean, I don't think it's a surprise that you see the people
00:37:08
who are more, you know, the Millennials are pro crypto and
00:37:11
whether there are pro Bitcoin or Pro crypto more generally which
00:37:16
I think is the more position on the far left you know you see
00:37:20
some lefties kind of talk about crypto as empowering people of
00:37:23
color, you know taking power away from Wall Street.
00:37:26
There is like the Lefty Kumbaya the golf rope Ever played by Vie
00:37:32
crypto people. I wanna, I definitely want a
00:37:35
table that for another episode. There is a strong Pro Lefty
00:37:39
active development. I call BS on the crypto people.
00:37:41
I talk to are devastated by the fact that they view the left is
00:37:45
inherently against crypto. Yeah.
00:37:47
Nice things dreaming. I mean Jeff.
00:37:50
Do you disagree? You think there's a strong
00:37:51
leftist crypto World here. I don't know.
00:37:54
I think you're being a little cynical.
00:37:55
You simply begin with the crypto crowd with might call you and no
00:37:58
Corner Eric but that's fine. Yeah.
00:38:00
And you met Be right. I own coins just so they can
00:38:03
call me that. I don't know what you call that
00:38:05
willing to lose money to spite, you know, just to spite people.
00:38:08
I guess is what I am. But yes.
00:38:10
All right. I don't think it's totally
00:38:11
Kumbaya. I mean like you look at the
00:38:13
finance committee hearings. You're seeing like even AOC.
00:38:16
Sounds moderately interested Congressman Richie tourists in
00:38:19
the Bronx is very into it. You know, just says, there's
00:38:22
like food deserts, there's banking deserts and I think a
00:38:25
lot of poor people in this country have a right to hate the
00:38:28
banks and they like the idea of crypto The use of crypto by
00:38:32
like, you know, I'm, you know, Black and Hispanic communities
00:38:35
in this country is higher than whites.
00:38:38
So I think there is something there and I do think there's
00:38:41
tension Democratic party in that like Elizabeth Warren friggin
00:38:43
hates it and people crypto and people took their marching
00:38:46
orders from her. I think a lot of Young Dams are
00:38:49
frustrated and part because you're being shut out of
00:38:50
fundraising opportunities and the risks eating like the, you
00:38:54
know, the crypto thing to Republicans, it's Ruby likes
00:38:57
eating the internet to, you know, to Republicans Or
00:39:00
democrats. But you know, who knows it's
00:39:02
early days, you might be right? The End.
00:39:04
Eric will see. Here's my last question.
00:39:06
I mean, you know, a key part of this conversation has just been
00:39:09
the centrality of Sam Venkman freed and you know, some of
00:39:13
these other exchanges, you know, isn't that doesn't that just cut
00:39:18
against the core of crypto like that?
00:39:21
It's supposed to be decentralized.
00:39:23
I mean, the idea that there's there could be sort of a bailout
00:39:27
in any sense, even if it's sort of a total, you know free It
00:39:31
thing, I mean clearly SPF is worried about contagion risk
00:39:34
here and thinks that he needs to make some cheap eyes along with
00:39:39
maybe getting a deal. But I don't know.
00:39:41
Is there, is there anything about this that cuts against the
00:39:45
core of what cryptos supposed to be about?
00:39:48
If you're having sort of a bailout in some way?
00:39:50
Because wealth is so Consolidated that someone
00:39:53
someone can afford to do, it doesn't every industry of
00:39:56
winners and losers. Just to the extent that like,
00:39:58
there's always gonna be some centralization, right?
00:40:00
I mean, the fact you're Ting a company at all and, you know,
00:40:02
raising outside money and accumulating customers, like, I
00:40:06
understand that as like a theoretical concern, but like,
00:40:08
at the end of the dentist like so much of the heart of what
00:40:11
excites people about crypto is sort of the Dow Dow.
00:40:14
Yeah, I just did a lot of people can get involved and, but the
00:40:18
solutions were seen are sort of Big Rich entity who has a lot of
00:40:24
control over the market, has probably made a lot of money
00:40:26
from their visibility into the market further, consolidates,
00:40:30
the It to me. What's happening?
00:40:32
Wouldn't speak to sort of most of the virtues that people talk
00:40:36
about when they talk about crypto.
00:40:37
Yeah. No, I mean, Eric that the
00:40:39
difference, I think Teddy between other Industries and
00:40:41
crypto is other Industries don't have like their Central theology
00:40:45
is not the centralization and you know, like, you know,
00:40:48
Devolution of power to the common man, you know, you don't
00:40:50
see like, you know, Bezos running around saying that but
00:40:53
that tensions been part of crypto.
00:40:54
Since the beginning, it's never been as, you know, to
00:40:57
centralizes it professes to be, it's always like an ideal.
00:41:00
That's just over Her eyes and just, let's get a little more
00:41:02
decentralized and, you know, it's, it's the storage been
00:41:05
there since day one. Yeah, great.
00:41:07
Well, Jeff Teddy. Thanks for coming on.
00:41:09
I really appreciate it. Fun fun to mix it up on and
00:41:12
crypto. You bet.
00:41:13
I was a lot of fun guys. Thanks everyone.
00:41:27
So goodbye. Goodbye goodbye, goodbye.
00:41:30
Goodbye. Goodbye.
00:41:31
Goodbye.