As much as insiders might bristle over their portrayals, television and movies shape how the world sees Silicon Valley.
Aaron Sorkin’s The Social Network defined how people thought about Mark Zuckerberg. Movies like The Wolf of Wall Street and The Big Short sold arcane financial stories to the masses.
So Tom Dotan, Katie Benner, and I were interested to see how New York Times reporter Mike Isaac’s propulsive book about Uber from 2019 — Super Pumped — would be translated to our television screens.
Since we can’t watch the show yet (the first episode airs Feb. 27), we spoke to Isaac — who has played an integral role in making sure that the show’s writers know the true story behind what went down in the Uber saga. We’ll soon see how closely they hewed to reality.
But ears will be burning. Despite only running seven episodes, the show features a long list of tech characters. They might not be famous outside of Silicon Valley but they are the stuff of legend to Silicon Valley obsessives. That includes people like David Drummond, Larry Page, Arianna Huffington, Emil Michael, Rachel Whetstone, and Jill Hazelbaker. That’s not to mention the headline conflict between Travis Kalanick and Bill Gurley.
Isaac gave us a spoiler-free behind the scenes look at the making of the show. We talked about Hollywood’s obsession with tech. Isaac gave us a preview of the questions he’s asking going into his in-the-works book on Facebook — which is already slated to become the sequel to the Uber series. And we concluded our conversation with a brief discussion of Isaac and his colleagues’ latest reporting on Spotify, which revealed that Spotify had committed to paying Joe Rogan a stunning $200 million-plus.
Get full access to Newcomer at www.newcomer.co/subscribe
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Welcome, thanks for joining us on dead cat.
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We're here with Mike Isaac. My former is day colleague at
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the New York Times. I ran away to Washington.
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D.c. he stayed in San Francisco like the smart person.
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He is, then he went on to write a book about Poober which is now
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going to be a television series premiering on Showtime quite
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Soon, Mike will give us more details and he just wrote a
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great story about Spotify. So there's a lot to talk to Mike
00:00:35
about today and Mike. Thanks for being here.
00:00:38
Thank you for having me t - how many days till the premiere?
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Mike. It is February 27th.
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Sunday night on Showtime is coming up.
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So, like, if it comes out on Tuesday, probably like really
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close five days, have you have you watched it yet?
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So, I just watched episodes last night.
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Well, I know, like, I had It's funny because I have had.
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So, this whole experience has been wild.
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Like, I've never done anything like this at all, but like,
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they've been when I first signed this whole thing, my publisher
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was like, don't even think that it's going to get made all this
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shit like options get bought all the time and nothing happens.
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So I went in with very low expectations but they've been
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Brian David and Beth the show Runners.
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Have been super cool and like involves me a lot and stuff.
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So I've had access to what are called All the dailies like The
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Daily Show reels that they shoot or whatever, and I can sort of
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watch that, but I am just they're starting to send out
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screeners actually. We're probably gonna bug you
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guys soon because they're starting to send out screeners
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to folks who might want to watch them.
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And Eric, I was going to email you great.
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Yeah if you want to see it. So yeah of course I did watch
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it. Why did you push did you push
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back anything in production? Sort of factually or truth East
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- or were you pretty chick definitely?
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Yeah. Yeah, I think you can like I
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think there are definitely people who are like this is so
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stupid. I don't know.
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I was My role was like, fact guy, basically, like I think
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which was appropriate for me and my day job or whatever as a
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journalist. So I was like, this is what
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happened. You guys obviously are creative
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types can do whatever you want, but I can.
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And so they would go to me for like, yeah.
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Like, what is Larry Page like or what is, or what did you know?
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I know which is a whole other. How much time do you have?
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Exactly. Oh my God, I watch the Larry
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Page episode. It's so So it's going to be role
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of a lifetime. I mean, it's so good.
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You know, who's lying? It's really.
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It's fascinating. It's do you remember the guy on
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Mad Men Who Went Crazy? The like what is your offer?
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Yes. Yes against me.
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Yes, /. Yes, that really?
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Where he is so good. I can't.
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It was his nipple by the way that he co-hosts Was it really
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big? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Van. Gogh.
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Who come? Right.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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All artists though he was also in Silicon Valley to he's really
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cut out a niche for himself. Well, the lawyer is yep.
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Yeah, forgot about that. That's really interesting.
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Well, like these guys Brian and David the guys who do billions
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just kind of weirdly know everyone in like I always sort
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of run into folks, not even in Hollywood whatever.
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Like in techland who are like, Oh yeah, I've known Brian for
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whatever. His father was a music industry
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exec so they the cameos are it's I'm just super I was really
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worried. I was like I don't know if this
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is going to be good. I hope people like it, you know.
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And it's the cast is amazing. I mean yeah it's it's just
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they've been able to get so many great people.
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Have you interacted with the cast at all as part of this?
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Yeah, I got to go down to the set in La.
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It was actually good timing because it was right between
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When we all got vaccinated and before like Delta Omicron my
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fucked everything up. And so I got to go and like hang
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out on this the studio lot for a few days and got to meet Joseph
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Gordon-Levitt and Kyle Chandler. They're both like it was really
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like everyone. I guess I have to be nice to me,
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but they were actually regularly really nice people and very
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sharp like, super curious. Joe is like super interested and
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curious about the tech industry and in ways that like, I just
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got, he's got a company, he's got like a digital media company
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and yeah, I run into him from time to time at things like he
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definitely really circuit. Yeah, I mean, first of all, I
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ran into him early days like when I lived in La was like
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bumming around in Hollywood. That's cool.
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That's a different story. Who are you inspiring actor,
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Tom. Am I an inspiring actor for him
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and a aspiring. And I wasn't that much bumming
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around. No, I was just sitting in.
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I was I was an assistant on the movie, g.i.
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Joe, the Rise of Cobra. I was an assistant to the
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producer and I came in for the last three weeks and I probably
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was there for the worst part of the movie as far as Joe is
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concerned because you know what ADR is and movies like when they
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have to. Yeah they like going after a
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movie is It and like when they want to have the censored
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version of it, they have the actors go into a booth and
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instead of them saying like a shit, you know it's like Joseph
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Gordon-Levitt being like shoot yeah really them doing like 30
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takes of this or like alternate endings and all this other
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stuff. They just recording the sound
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booth so they can tweak the movie if they need to at the
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end. And so, I was there for that.
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I would just sitting in the sound booth, just doing nothing.
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Which is what most people in Hollywood do.
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As you probably saw in South, you were like dream.
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Why do people not do anything here?
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They just sit down and watch everyone.
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Else do things. There's so many folks had just
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sort of Milling around, I guess doing something or like they
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have one very specific job that I'm not sure what it is.
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But yeah, and if they don't do it, they're fired.
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But otherwise they have nothing to do.
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But anyways, I was just sitting there.
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I really had nothing to do but but he was there with the
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director. Wasn't there to like coach him
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through his leg? Shoot, darn crap.
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And he got super pissed about this.
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He was like, why is no one directing me?
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And so he walks keep this is Joseph.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so he walked out of the
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session. He was so pissed.
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God, that's he stormed out but as he was walking out, he looked
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over at me and he was like, I'm sorry you had to see that.
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Oh my God, I love it. He was like just self-conscious
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enough to understand. Yeah.
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And so then, I've gone better. Right?
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Right. So, that's that's what makes
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these people great mediocre actors and then it so like
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flash-forward, like six years or seven years later.
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Something I'm at web Summit in Lisbon and he's there to
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promote. Boat hit record which is like
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his digital media company. Yeah.
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And I randomly I shared a cab with him and his like people on
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the way to it and it would have been a great full circle moment
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for me to have like told him like oh yeah you remember that
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time but he wouldn't. Hopefully not the type
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screaming. Shoot darn.
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Yeah, but Joe is as we're calling him.
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I've never met the man, he goes. My Joey Joey he's playing Travis
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right calendar. Great.
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What a casting what? What do you think he pulled sort
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of most truthfully from from Travis, as you know?
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Yeah, I mean, you know, I think probably all of us have met
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Travis at some point over the years, maybe.
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Yeah. I think sometimes.
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Yeah. Katie, you know, yeah.
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Yes. I haven't.
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Sorry. I met him.
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Yes. So like you know how intense the
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guy is? Unlike just sort of every level.
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Just very I guess the thing that That that I was excited about is
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like this is very casting against type for Joe, I would
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say like, you know, aside from maybe GI Joe, although I did not
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see that movie he's, you know, you know him as like five
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minutes or summer. Yeah.
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Right. Like just very sort of and he's
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just that's not him in the show at all you know, like obviously
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Travis is not going to be starring in 500 Days of slavery.
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That was helpful. Not a beta.
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The summer, that's the thing he would start.
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But I'm sure like if you're directing Joe in this and the
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direction is like, you got to be intense, dude.
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Like actors like that. Like that's something they can
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dig into the Chimes. I know nerdy though.
00:08:44
He's not just yes. And he captures that sort of?
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Yeah, I think I think they I mean a lot of they use really
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technical language, like I appreciate it in the script,
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they incorporate pretty technical language and they have
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fun with it. They you know, Have to take
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Liberties, just for storytelling and like, like, you can't.
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I think any Tech movie that didn't do that would be very
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boring and hard to watch. So, like, I think they sort of
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explain these Concepts that are pretty sophisticated in ways
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that the audience can kind of digest, which I think is good.
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And then also, like assumes that the audience is intelligent
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enough to sort of grasp onto these things.
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But he's definitely, he's got the, like, sort of rapid-fire
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thinking. Down like intensity.
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But also knows how to geek out on on things.
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Like you said, like, he's not an obvious nerd.
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I guess is what you would say. If you just see his sort of
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public Persona, you don't necessarily think nerd, but I
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think that's totally right. And so, I think he think he
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really gets that and I don't know.
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He's is he the villain? I mean, it's sort of, it's sort
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of like, in the book, like what is villain, who's the villain of
00:10:01
this story, right? He's like the protagonist /
00:10:04
antagonist, right? And Mike similar with Kyle
00:10:07
Chandler as girly, he's like you, like you, there's a version
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of you rooting for him, but at the same time, like he's also
00:10:13
like a pain in the ass of Travis, right?
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You know, or like someone that's just sort of at least in you
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know the way they portrayed in the show they're just sort of of
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these characters who are close and then are driven apart and
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then ultimately comeback against each other.
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So I think it's I thought which was what was really cool about
00:10:31
it. Is they kind of did the same
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thing that I try to do in the book which is like we don't have
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a clear, clear hero. You know.
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And you don't want to just totally one dimensional eyes
00:10:43
Travis because he's rounded flawed person.
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I guess, you know, and I think I do like Joe in the show.
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Honestly, I think that people did, like Travis in real life
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and that was one of the things that was perplexing, perhaps in
00:10:56
the media representation of Travis, so many stories about
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boober, especially, that was it 2017?
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Got a pretty negative and the News was - the facts were -.
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So as a reporter, you couldn't really capture the fact that he
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is a fun and interesting and weird person.
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And that is actually part. Yeah.
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And that's part of who he is. And is why here?
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One of the other ways, that a given moment, you know, but
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that's why he could be the person he was Like you can't,
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you can't do some of the things that we reported about, and have
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people still come back for more, if you are not at least
00:11:29
charismatic in some way. It's interesting talking to
00:11:32
people at Hoover now, which I think of the people here.
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I'm the only one who actually. Yeah, still over sure this
00:11:38
Market, News to be had about them.
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But but it is interesting to talk to, you know, the class of
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people that came up under Travis, the ones who transition
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into the darker regime, the ones who only knew Uber under dhara
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and they have such conflicted. You know, the first two groups
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have such conflicted feelings about Travis because in one
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sense, you know, if they're the ones complaining about dhara for
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all the reasons that, you know, you could imagine you would
00:12:13
think like oh so Travis was better or you you must have been
00:12:16
a Travis Acolyte and they're like, Hey listen I'm no Travis
00:12:18
Defender, you know he caused me. Plenty of me misery or This was
00:12:21
really tough under him. I got these are the people who
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make the vibe shift, the people who are not entered the
00:12:26
creepiest behind bars, right? Right.
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Yeah. I don't know whether it's
00:12:34
actually lie, but I think like that sort of complexity that
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you're describing about like is he a good?
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Is he bad? Is he both, you know, is the
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same thing that you were employers seemed like they were
00:12:43
constantly wrestling with, you know, even though he made them
00:12:46
fabulously wealthy and, you know, was the best time of their
00:12:49
lives and they were taken over the world and all that.
00:12:51
Crazy shit that I'm sure is going to drive the drama the
00:12:53
show, they're still upset, they're still like torn up about
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it. They're still very conflicted.
00:12:58
I totally I think conflicted is exactly right I've never really
00:13:01
I mean there are folks who they're folks who take stances
00:13:05
but I think people are take like unilateral stances, but I think
00:13:09
a lot of the folks who have straddled certain eras or or
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recognized eventually like they're definitely Travis people
00:13:18
who will just like be like yeah Travis ride or die but I think a
00:13:22
lot of the folks who were more self-aware feel really
00:13:25
conflicted about the guy and to this day, even some of the
00:13:28
people who were closest to him, still have really sort of
00:13:32
strange even And relationships, you know, and like I don't know.
00:13:37
I don't know if that ever changes with him, are there a
00:13:39
lot of composite characters or what sort of, who are the main
00:13:45
from the real fall of Travis. Like, I mean, Benchmark world,
00:13:49
like, Matt Kohler and Peter Fenton were cast right or what?
00:13:52
Yep, just give us, you know, this is sort of a real Silicon
00:13:55
Valley audience like who's yeah. It was really in it and who's
00:13:59
sort of like honey how do you prepare to play Peter Fenton?
00:14:02
By the way? Like what's with the research?
00:14:05
Yeah. Well, I don't like a whole,
00:14:08
there's like there's a press person but what like Jill, Hazel
00:14:12
Baker, Rachel Whetstone, and back home in her Birds until
00:14:14
like one sort of person. Or what's that about?
00:14:18
What if you're passing Peter Fenton, you got to have a jewel
00:14:29
Heiser pecker and it Rachel, I think they.
00:14:32
So there are composite Folks, I don't give away too much but
00:14:37
like there are again for like, storytelling purposes, I think
00:14:41
you have to sort of merge certain people into like one
00:14:46
person to represent. I'm the person who comes and
00:14:49
talks to you about ex issue that we have 4X engineering thing
00:14:54
that we do or working on like how they get around apples.
00:14:59
You know, detection stuff on how they were sort of duping Apple
00:15:02
for a while and like so, there is definitely.
00:15:04
Finally some folks who, or, or like, there's this character
00:15:08
called Hendricks, who is like the security type, dude, who's
00:15:13
kind of stands in, for someone who might have done the Ripley
00:15:16
stuff that you guys reported on and like, or the, or great ball
00:15:20
or like, like people who kind of represent different parts of
00:15:24
what Uber was doing in different parts of its existence.
00:15:28
And so I think that I think, I think it works because like,
00:15:33
again, you don't need to get every sort of detail in terms of
00:15:36
who is involved in how, but I think they sort of get it across
00:15:40
in a way that. And that's the other thing like
00:15:42
you and I are all of us here. Kind of know how to or when we
00:15:46
when we, when you're watching it, you're going to be like, oh,
00:15:49
ha ha, you know, I get that or I know what really happened there,
00:15:51
right? But like getting like normal
00:15:53
people to like digest and understand Usher, the shows not
00:15:57
terrific if the show is built for us, that would be it, it's
00:15:59
right now. They do a lot of those Concepts
00:16:13
into things and then they, they had like, David Drummond is a
00:16:17
character in the show or languages thing it's 777s.
00:16:22
I mean, it feels, I mean, it is going to be the fun of watching
00:16:24
the show but a lot of the drama sort of in the book and just
00:16:29
there was a was, like, sort of Board stuff but then I'll
00:16:33
obviously all the scandals are, you know, engineering sort of
00:16:37
driven. So I'm interested to see just
00:16:41
how they, how they sort of cover all that ground or like, is it a
00:16:44
try to cover it all or they try to mostly anyway, you don't have
00:16:47
to spoil but just watch the show.
00:16:52
I think they do a good job of I mean, it's funny because all of
00:16:59
us lived through 2017, but a lot of 2017 was retroactively
00:17:06
digging up all the shit that happened in the past, right?
00:17:08
So a lot of a drama for us was like later but I think that you
00:17:15
can cover it in a way where it's built into the arc over time,
00:17:18
right. And so I think they do a good
00:17:21
job of doing that. I think they also they wanted to
00:17:25
tease out the Travis. This bill divide more.
00:17:29
And so, I mean a lot of this is just sort of like how do you
00:17:32
tell how do you do this right for the screen?
00:17:36
And it's a lot of like character arcs.
00:17:38
And like what are these characters need to do over time?
00:17:42
They need to be antagonists and sort of like funding and like a
00:17:46
relationship that builds and changes and then ultimately
00:17:49
dissolves as we know from reality.
00:17:51
So like so I think that's where the creative Sort of dramatic
00:17:58
storytelling part comes into it. So even if it's not, this is
00:18:04
exactly what we know how it happened and when it happened I
00:18:07
think they sort of use that in the Arc of like okay rise and
00:18:12
fall over seven episodes. Make it work like that so yeah
00:18:15
this is but was there a was there a specific thing?
00:18:18
You just drew a heart. You were like you need to get
00:18:20
this fact right or you need. Was there a thing where you I'm
00:18:23
translating the book to the show that stands out to you or that
00:18:26
was like a Big issue. I know.
00:18:28
I don't know. It's a good.
00:18:30
I'm trying to think if there was a moment.
00:18:32
So the fun one. Cool thing was that I was there
00:18:35
were these we did two writers rooms in each room was so what a
00:18:42
room is is like they get all the writers on the show, the show
00:18:45
Runners, and then you have like writers for each episode.
00:18:49
So like a different writer will do, right?
00:18:51
One episode. So we had like six or seven
00:18:53
people and then the show runners go back over the script and Add
00:18:57
their stuff, and like their dialogue.
00:18:59
They want and, like, ask for this and that.
00:19:01
And so, so that this group of people convened and they wanted
00:19:07
me to come in. So I came into and I did it, and
00:19:09
it was for five days a week, like, two hours every morning.
00:19:16
This is all before my job, my actual job, and then for 10
00:19:20
weeks. So it was really intense.
00:19:21
Well, just sort of like, yeah, it's a lot and then we did that
00:19:25
twice. So there was a 10-week stretch
00:19:27
CH very early on in the pandemic and we all did this over zoom.
00:19:31
And then there was another ten weeks stretch later on, as they
00:19:35
were very internalized, this trip.
00:19:38
Yeah, it was I. So, and this is the sort of
00:19:42
Protection. I think I have just in terms of
00:19:44
like, real world stuff. I was very, I was very much
00:19:47
present and got to be there for a lot of it, but also was the
00:19:51
sort of like, here's how it went, down person like Ike.
00:19:54
And there's a way of doing that where I could have been, like,
00:19:56
Captain come down. Like, I can't do that.
00:19:59
But like, there weren't that many moments that they were
00:20:02
really good about picking out details in the book and trying
00:20:06
to bring those out a little bit more, you know?
00:20:09
And then I mean there there will be things that I'm sure Valley
00:20:14
folks will pick at absolutely but I think that's going to
00:20:17
happen in any industry or but they do that with newspaper
00:20:20
story too. So it's like a new thing.
00:20:22
Yep. The other thing I would say is
00:20:24
they're very Bryan and David touches because if your watch
00:20:27
billions, you kind of know, their aesthetic and their rapid
00:20:32
fire talky like pop cultural references, they like to throw
00:20:37
in and so they, so like there's the It was definitely, you know,
00:20:44
how Valley folks operate, but also, through Bryan and David's
00:20:48
writing style, and size, you know, right?
00:20:50
Just like you would see, you would know how a particular
00:20:54
screen writer writes different things.
00:20:56
It's like it's like that and so they definitely put their touch
00:20:59
on it. I guess is what I'm is Arianna.
00:21:02
Huffington is obviously very good at making haryana.
00:21:08
She always comes out of anything.
00:21:10
Looking good. I feel like no matter, no matter
00:21:14
what she comes out looking. Well, does she come out of this
00:21:19
show? Looking good.
00:21:20
Ha ha ha. I think the I think it depends
00:21:25
on you. How you saw her come out of the
00:21:27
book looking? You know I think it I think they
00:21:30
try to sort of really tease out. I mean if your cast as Uma
00:21:35
Thurman in a show It's probably hard.
00:21:37
Not to look exactly. You know like I got I can't even
00:21:41
tell you how many people. Well, like message me saying,
00:21:43
are you fucking kidding me? This is not a happy.
00:21:46
He's there. Agree.
00:21:49
I forget, I have to go back to the book, but I mean, my Ariana
00:21:53
was someone sort of hated by both the pro and I anti Travis
00:21:57
sides by the end, because she was Pro Travis for longer than
00:22:01
people would have liked. But then obviously Travis
00:22:03
demands, absolute loyalty and she wasn't, she comes around to
00:22:08
sort of the DAR decision and then is out on the Travis side
00:22:11
and is left with very few friends and Uber world.
00:22:15
I mean, I don't know. Would you agree with that?
00:22:17
No, I know honey. I think Ariana is always team
00:22:21
Ariana, right? And like you said like she
00:22:23
always lagging. Can't tell us lands on her feet.
00:22:26
I mean I write like the way we did that profile of her the
00:22:30
upshot was she's always going to be fine and she always comes
00:22:33
out. Fine and everybody was so mad
00:22:35
because they wanted her to fail and I was like this is not a
00:22:37
person who's ever going to fail so you wishing for that.
00:22:40
Well if you're in telling you is the fact his Public Image making
00:22:43
that I want to be good at is having a good Public Image.
00:22:47
I know where that is. Yeah, if you optimize for that
00:22:50
you'll always come out. See it was funny that you said
00:22:51
she comes out looking good because that's never her.
00:22:53
I don't think her Emma was coming out looking good.
00:22:55
I think she's nothing. Come out unscathed, right?
00:22:57
Like I just unscathed but come out with some sort of advantage
00:23:00
that propels our to her next thing, right?
00:23:03
And I think she's very very good at that and uniquely so and if
00:23:06
people resent her for it, I get it.
00:23:08
But at the same time. Like but she doesn't care.
00:23:10
If they resent her, she doesn't who cares.
00:23:12
If your eyes on the prize, baby, every time you move from thing,
00:23:15
to thing, you gain more power or you gain something.
00:23:18
Who cares that? If somebody resents you, the
00:23:20
only thing I was going to say on that is she always seems to find
00:23:24
just when I was writing the book and sort of tracing her
00:23:27
ascendance I guess like she always seems to find this next
00:23:30
little thing that actually is going to be a thing.
00:23:33
You know. Like I mean, she like Huffington
00:23:36
Post kind of decimated news before anything else did in a
00:23:40
way that did very well for, you know, and like, and just give
00:23:44
her right, you know? Like the whole thing people
00:23:47
forget that. It was so scammy but then she
00:23:50
kind of was there at the Forefront of like we're going to
00:23:52
sell Health in this like very 100% packaged way like health is
00:23:57
now going to become something that you can buy.
00:24:00
How is the show going to change the way the public thinks about
00:24:04
boober? Right?
00:24:04
Because it felt like uber was something one the public didn't
00:24:08
think about it, all right? When it was a Silicon Valley
00:24:10
Obsession, it was just like a thing that you used and then
00:24:14
became part because of all these critical media stories, Uber
00:24:17
became kind of The public Touchstone for bad Silicon
00:24:21
Valley, like this is what's bad about the tech industry.
00:24:24
Yes. And then everyone forgot about
00:24:25
the Uber again. So how is this going to
00:24:27
re-establish? The Uber, like, Public Image or
00:24:30
change it? I think that for, I think that
00:24:35
we think we know how normal people think about Silicon
00:24:40
Valley in a very different way than reality, meaning we have a
00:24:45
very like, we have a very strong conceptual.
00:24:48
Option of what these companies are, what the valley is.
00:24:51
I don't think normal. People have any real great
00:24:55
thinking about what it's like inside of boober or even inside
00:24:58
of Google Facebook. A lot of these, I think people
00:25:01
so Facebook is probably the best example.
00:25:03
I think people's Vision version of what they think Facebook is
00:25:07
like is still from The Social Network movie, Whatever 10-15
00:25:11
years ago, right like which was totally fabricated right.
00:25:14
Which was it's very fabric of percent what I thought of
00:25:17
Facebook Are right and it sticks with you.
00:25:20
And that's, I think that's how, you know, again, like all of us
00:25:24
are very much deeply entrenched in what it's like today.
00:25:27
And a lot of these companies and, you know, just sort of what
00:25:30
the vibe of the values. Like, I think normal people are
00:25:33
so far removed from that, they and even like you said, with the
00:25:37
Uber story, it was not. People had no idea about a lot
00:25:43
of different parts of this. They didn't know.
00:25:45
It was only a black car app for a very long time, they didn't
00:25:48
know. Lift was first to peer-to-peer
00:25:51
stuff, they didn't like just sort of things that they take
00:25:54
for granted now because they're so ubiquitous didn't really
00:25:58
recognize any of this. So I think for for anyone who
00:26:02
watched the show just like can get like some sense of history
00:26:07
and in kind of how things actually went down and kind of
00:26:10
what what it looked like inside. And I think that's instructive
00:26:14
hopeful and I think I don't know it'll be interesting to see It's
00:26:19
hard to capture a lot of these companies in a really compelling
00:26:23
way for TV. Just because like coding is, I'm
00:26:26
boring. Yeah.
00:26:27
Like the tech stories unless you unless in this particular case
00:26:32
we got lucky because the story was actually insane.
00:26:34
Right. But like a lot of tech company
00:26:37
histories are not that a new bursley, physical world.
00:26:41
And you know there's so much they're real.
00:26:43
I mean that's why great ball is exciting.
00:26:45
It's like, oh, you're invading some sort of law enforcement.
00:26:48
All right, you know that it's very different even if you're on
00:26:50
Facebook and I don't know, doing something with government that
00:26:54
that sort of still like, I'm sure yeah, exactly.
00:26:57
Right - exactly. It's seen some sniping right?
00:27:01
And it's things that like, you know, me affect people's lives.
00:27:04
I mean that's why super pumped was so great, why you?
00:27:06
No bad blood was so great, is that it makes this important
00:27:09
connection that to get people to care about this shit, which is
00:27:12
like, well who's really being affected by any of this stuff?
00:27:14
If it's just like money that evaporates because it was a bad
00:27:17
idea or their work. Animals involved.
00:27:19
Okay, sure. But also like, you know, who are
00:27:21
the people at the bottom of the chain that are, you know, not
00:27:25
operating the same way. Now, because of the thing that
00:27:27
happened at the top 100 percent and the social, The Social
00:27:30
Network is such an interesting example because that movie came
00:27:33
out before I cover Tech, right? So that was 20 2009. 2010 2010,
00:27:38
I was covering Wall Street so my only all that.
00:27:42
I know about the tech industry came from that movie because I
00:27:45
had literally zero interest in it before.
00:27:48
Yeah. And so my in, but this is the
00:27:50
difference. So this is like now, I know that
00:27:53
a lot of the movie was not true, right?
00:27:55
But the sense that you got of the company and the sense that
00:27:58
you got from the people involved, was it still accurate
00:28:03
on some level? When was that would be in time
00:28:08
on social networks, right, I never got bullshit, right?
00:28:11
I mean, yeah, any idea that so much of the central conflict was
00:28:14
Zuckerberg not having like a girlfriend or whatever.
00:28:18
Or write out the tension when he had a strong girlfriend, like,
00:28:23
throughout who is involved because it's Aaron Sorkin, like
00:28:25
he's a one-dimensional grants, like he owed me.
00:28:27
We can talk about this thankfully with Mike before we
00:28:30
see the show. But let's see.
00:28:32
I thought that the central I got this Central tension was not
00:28:36
about the girlfriend. I thought the central tension
00:28:38
was between he and the Winklevoss.
00:28:41
I, well, that's answer and Andrew Garfield.
00:28:44
A key part of what made his sort of humanity was the relationship
00:28:47
with a girlfriend. Which just was what was driving
00:28:50
and not actually true and it I did find that super it allowed.
00:28:55
Sort of, I think tech people in the know to sort of say, well,
00:28:59
that's not really what motivated soccer bright.
00:29:02
But now we're now for probably very few people could tell you
00:29:05
the other plot points of movie that came out 12 years ago, but
00:29:08
the sense of the company that it left is one that remained,
00:29:12
right? So I had actually literally
00:29:13
forgotten that the girlfriend was even a part of this movie,
00:29:16
but that Rudy, By the interrelationships in the movie.
00:29:21
But I forgot about the fact that their girlfriend was even a
00:29:24
factor in the plot, but the sense of the company, which is a
00:29:27
Founder, who is a moral who, you know, feels the he's driven,
00:29:32
right? Maniacally driven nicely driven
00:29:35
and wave over anything. That's all.
00:29:37
I remember about that movie but, you know, so that I think that's
00:29:42
sort of like why the public feels that way about Mark
00:29:44
Zuckerberg in some ways and it has nothing to do with being
00:29:48
able to To actually remember any of the plot.
00:29:51
Well, I think we all agree. Yeah, the mood from a movie, or
00:29:54
a piece of content is going to inform people way more than
00:29:57
write the Articles we right. So and so the show and bring
00:29:59
about very much but what will the impression be that it leaves
00:30:09
of Travis, right? And is that different from the
00:30:11
impression that the news has left?
00:30:13
I think so. I think so a, I have that that
00:30:18
just in exploring this exploring and really thinking hard about
00:30:21
Facebook, because I am doing a another book on Facebook next,
00:30:27
which I'm going to have to go start working on, not start.
00:30:30
Go continue after this podcast, right?
00:30:33
Right, is there an era or what's the central?
00:30:36
I think it's, I think it's gonna be well, it's funny that you're
00:30:41
mentioning the, and this is why I bring it up is because I ate
00:30:47
part of why I want to do it is because of how much people think
00:30:50
of Facebook as The Social Network are 20 2011 or whatever
00:30:54
the hell. It was 2010 2011 I think people
00:30:59
don't really know what drives Mark and Cheryl to do what they
00:31:03
do and I think it's much more nuanced and not necessarily in a
00:31:08
flattering way, I think there's but not necessarily an
00:31:11
unflattering way. I just think that people are
00:31:13
complicated and it It it has it is the similar impulse that I
00:31:18
had with Travis, right? Like he's not your hero, he's
00:31:21
not your villain. He's a flawed person and I think
00:31:23
that's what makes him interesting.
00:31:24
And what makes the arc, so fun to write about, how do you have,
00:31:28
you talked to Travis, since your courtroom scene, where he's at
00:31:32
least last time I spoke to him in real life?
00:31:34
I mean, as you guys know, there are there are ways of getting to
00:31:39
him. But like I think that I think
00:31:41
that was literally the last time we ever interacted and trick.
00:31:45
Ends or whatever, it's been a while, but go back to the
00:31:48
answering that like, so what is, how will this show?
00:31:51
What will the public perception of Travis be after the show?
00:31:54
And how is that different from what we have?
00:31:56
I really think. I think that you are correct
00:31:59
before in saying the view of Travis from from my coverage,
00:32:05
from other folks has coverage. As it was unfolding was probably
00:32:09
like big scary Tech bad guy. I don't think that's what he is.
00:32:15
For better or worse, I guess, and I don't think that's what
00:32:18
the show portrays them. As I think the show sort of
00:32:21
maybe, there are people who watch the show who like him or
00:32:25
Founders, who sort of get it, you know, I still talk to people
00:32:27
in the valley today who are like, you know, benchmark fucked
00:32:32
up. They should not have done this.
00:32:33
There's a few people who are very like strongly against it.
00:32:36
So I think it I think they do a good job of sort of showing that
00:32:41
he was a driven guy but also Some of the things that made him
00:32:47
great or the things that end up doing him in in the end.
00:32:50
So he's our friends, our characters in the show.
00:32:55
Yes. Angie and Gabi are both.
00:32:57
Yeah, I think that would be interesting.
00:32:58
I'm excited to see how those inform his ark.
00:33:04
Yeah, he's definitely. They are a big part.
00:33:07
I want to go back to something. You said, a while ago in this,
00:33:10
which was that you weren't expecting them to make this
00:33:13
after it was optioned, right? It's like you can a check for
00:33:15
the option, which is awesome. Mike and I even remember, I even
00:33:18
remember when it happens, you know, and I covered media for a
00:33:21
while and so people were like, oh man, you know, the option
00:33:23
Mike's book and I was like, yeah, they're never going to
00:33:25
make it right? Because be even ever casting all
00:33:28
this stuff. We're like is this really, you
00:33:29
know, is this gonna happen? Or is it the blood can be pulled
00:33:33
at any point during these things and I had always thought like
00:33:35
there's just not enough people like to us, it's the biggest
00:33:38
deal in the world, right? Like I read all of your stories
00:33:41
and I was like yeah and I love the book and I was like oh yeah,
00:33:43
this is great drama but And it's like, who cares outside of just
00:33:47
us and, you know, Hollywood has to operate largely outside of
00:33:50
the things that we for people are interested in.
00:33:53
But then so, this coincides with what is like one of the topics
00:33:58
that tech people Tech journalists always get around to
00:34:00
which is this bubble of books and now shows based on these
00:34:04
these companies. Right.
00:34:05
I mean like I was at a party last night.
00:34:07
Missed you there. Mike.
00:34:08
I my back actually went out yesterday so I literally spent
00:34:13
the rest of the evening on my back.
00:34:15
And now I have a pillow back on the okay, right now.
00:34:17
I'm okay. Yeah.
00:34:18
But I had Katie remembers the era of me being, like, fucked up
00:34:21
in my back, so I feel terrible for missing that party.
00:34:24
I gotta call Elliot anyway, but I know but immediately cast
00:34:29
about another media party line. But so, you know, reporter there
00:34:40
had written a book about we work and in the background of the
00:34:44
party were screen. Of the Apple TV we work show
00:34:48
that is going be coming out in a couple of weeks with Jared Leto.
00:34:51
Is Adam Newman. My God, that's so funny.
00:34:53
What is that happening or yeah? Yeah.
00:34:56
Like there were episodes. There's a trailer out.
00:34:58
Hmm. Yeah.
00:34:59
Whose book is it off of or nobody's know it's based on re
00:35:03
vitamins book and then, you know, they're going to be making
00:35:05
the Katie you're in Mike, your colleagues on the Facebook,
00:35:09
being wait who? So there is a book on on.
00:35:13
There's an Apple TV show on On. We work that's coming out there
00:35:17
making a second season of Super Pump that's going to be based on
00:35:19
Facebook and maybe related to the book that you're putting
00:35:22
out. There is what is called super
00:35:24
pumped will it, or they're going to not really sure what their
00:35:27
title designation is, it's an apology pump: Facebook, right?
00:35:31
Okay, so is it Mike General name may be cool, I think, I think
00:35:35
they, I think for naming purposes, it might be good to
00:35:38
have continuity. I'm not exactly sure what
00:35:40
they're going to do, but we'll call it fucking metal mates meta
00:35:43
mates. Meta mate.
00:35:45
Fucked up but it's and then there's going to be also.
00:35:48
I think another Apple TV thing on on Shira and Cecilia's book.
00:35:54
So like we've gone from, you know my thinking like yeah
00:35:57
they'll option these things but nothing's going to happen from
00:35:59
it to it seems like they're green lighting everything and I
00:36:03
don't know from your perspective having been like part of the
00:36:06
bubble and like benefited from it and contributed to it like
00:36:09
what is happening like where is this coming from?
00:36:12
Is this just the success of Bad Blood and that Becoming like a
00:36:15
wider pop culture phenomenon where producers may be realized
00:36:20
like oh yeah there is you know an audience for these kinds of
00:36:23
things is it just like the growth of tech in all of our
00:36:26
lives and like we're trying to examine, you know, is it a
00:36:29
reflection of you know what we've built and who we are?
00:36:32
Is it just like a cash grab? Because these are streaming
00:36:35
services that just order content by the tonnage and they just
00:36:38
have to get more shows out there.
00:36:40
And so we like that's like Pele I do is rely concert.
00:36:46
I know, so I think there are I think there's not one given
00:36:50
thing. I think there are a lot of
00:36:51
things, a streamers desperately need content all the time,
00:36:56
right? Like and you have like this
00:36:58
streaming war going on. Where, again, what you said is,
00:37:01
you can't even remember, which thing it's playing on because
00:37:03
everyone has a streaming app right now.
00:37:05
If it's not Apple TV or Apple TV, Plus or whatever, whatever
00:37:10
it's called and it's Hulu, if it's not Hulu that it's Netflix,
00:37:12
it's not Netflix, then it's showtime which is we're super
00:37:14
pumped. His which is what you should
00:37:16
subscribe to if it's not Showtime than it.
00:37:17
Someone just you know send me their password to Showtime the
00:37:20
other day. I won't I do not recommend it if
00:37:25
it's not but like streamers all great job are exciting for
00:37:31
streamers all finest. We're gonna consume like show
00:37:34
however you can you know, but they all need to find content
00:37:38
and they're paying a lot of money for it and There's I mean,
00:37:43
they're the, the other thing that made me what was shocking
00:37:46
to me, is how much IP is like just snapping up books and book
00:37:51
rights to make a lot of these things.
00:37:53
Like a lot of really dramatic books that would work are the
00:37:58
are the one. So like so it's kind of like a
00:38:00
lagging indicator. The the the the movie options
00:38:05
and TV options are a lagging indicator.
00:38:07
I think of how many TV herb Tech books are being sold.
00:38:10
Which again, we went through a bubbled.
00:38:12
Are in like a ton of textbooks, what I think will be curious is
00:38:19
so my show is hitting at the same time, a few different shows
00:38:22
are hitting. I know there are a number of
00:38:24
articles in the works. Right now.
00:38:26
It's probably time to the premier's around like this very
00:38:29
Trend and like, what's going on here?
00:38:31
Why is this? I think so.
00:38:33
I think part of its streamers need content.
00:38:35
I think part of it is a bunch of different books on this.
00:38:38
I think part of it is Tech, is is A huge topic that we have all
00:38:43
covered for our jobs in a big way over the past five to seven
00:38:47
years. That was not covered the same
00:38:50
way generation previous. Let's say, you know, I mean,
00:38:53
Donald Trump's gone politics is boring text.
00:38:55
A better story, you know that market caps are kind of right.
00:39:00
Like you know I think when Wall Street was a big story before
00:39:04
collapse like on the come up it was 2006 7 and then eight,
00:39:08
obviously the collapse and so Pop culture or the processing of
00:39:13
that happens. Later The Wolf of Wall Street,
00:39:15
just like seven years later. The Big Short is like, 8 years
00:39:19
later. Even like the Lehman Brothers
00:39:20
movie was years later and you see a multi-year, stretch of
00:39:25
movies and television shows. Come out all about Wall Street,
00:39:29
like, does five to ten years after Wall Street.
00:39:33
The story itself that reporters covered, five to ten years after
00:39:36
that story is covered and reporters have done it.
00:39:39
The pop culture versions of it. It takes takes a few years to
00:39:43
digest and then like another few years to put out, so like the
00:39:46
last big Wall Street show is probably, I mean like billions,
00:39:50
right? Yeah.
00:39:51
And so, but between like the Lehman Brothers movie, I forgot
00:39:54
what it's called. But about like the fiction with
00:39:56
Demi Moore between that and billions is like.
00:40:01
So that's like what seven years of movies and television shows
00:40:04
about things that happened seven years before, you know, so this
00:40:07
is so few like about where the text or I was the ark, you kind
00:40:11
of the Because like 2016 and the come down is 2017.
00:40:16
Were in 2022. I think we've got another three
00:40:18
or four years of these shows and movies and to be clear.
00:40:22
We also don't know yet, how they'll be received, you know?
00:40:24
I'd like a super pumped is the first one, I've Sprite more or
00:40:28
less. I mean, you could maybe put
00:40:30
Silicon Valley but that's, I would say, I did well, that
00:40:32
Agora I was going to say the theranos all the there,
00:40:35
honestly, I'm not sure when that comes out but that's yeah,
00:40:37
that's the other word of 9V but, you know, they always get done.
00:40:42
Enter a podcast and television show about Mario's.
00:40:45
I mean, that's how it works. But I think right time I think
00:40:47
your point is right. Like we have a lot of it.
00:40:49
Now if everyone hates all of this, maybe it goes away, maybe
00:40:54
maybe we're like, all right, we tried doing the tech thing,
00:40:56
right? We're not optioning Tech stuff
00:40:58
anymore, you know. I think that well Hollywood is
00:41:00
full of followers, right? So we're tag reporter is in use
00:41:03
careers, hang on. This be successful.
00:41:12
There are ghosts all the high schools in.
00:41:14
Like let me explain you what a fucking option is, okay?
00:41:16
That's where you get into the game.
00:41:18
You want to option? Wow, Eric is a journalism
00:41:21
Professor is so immense to think I'm in the newsletter business,
00:41:25
which is his own bubble, right? Hustle.
00:41:28
So that's like comparing it to Wall Street, you know.
00:41:35
I think back to like the 80s and, you know, like the three
00:41:38
sort of big books that came out of like the financialization in
00:41:40
the 80s, you have Barbarian at the gates, you have liars poker,
00:41:45
and you have the launch by Apatow mentioned above, your
00:41:48
oven is bonfire of the vanities. And like, two of them are, like,
00:41:51
you know, journalistic recounting Zoar like narratives
00:41:54
in a nonfiction narratives about what it was like being in Wall
00:41:57
Street during that during that period Then you have bonfire of
00:42:00
the vanities which is this completely crazy fictional piece
00:42:04
and it's interesting to me that like the shows that are being
00:42:07
made right now are all mostly based on books and like real
00:42:10
companies that have imploded, Crazy dramas.
00:42:13
I don't think we've had like the really ambitious fictional just
00:42:16
purely fictionalized needs to come out in a wiener.
00:42:20
Did her book, right? Which is fictionalized.
00:42:23
Well, I read that. It's only know, it's like, I
00:42:25
think it's pretty true to life. It's autobiographical.
00:42:28
Yeah. Right.
00:42:29
No, that's not fictionalize. I think fictionalized versions.
00:42:32
Sort of came out, maybe too early and they were too facile
00:42:37
in some ways. So there's the moist Michaels
00:42:40
did a novel. Yeah.
00:42:41
They I feel a little off, like, one of the novel, The Circle,
00:42:44
right? All right, that was not quite
00:42:46
well, that was a terrible book. It's not because one of the
00:42:49
things that bonfire of the vanities, is that it not only
00:42:52
skewers Wall Street, it's accurate, right?
00:42:55
It's like cancer test but also like dead-on right?
00:42:59
And by remembering it, right? And yeah, it's very
00:43:02
knowledgeable. The tech critique novels they
00:43:05
were so interested in the critique that they didn't pay
00:43:08
attention to any of the other parts including character.
00:43:12
Total which speaks to a sort of scold E Period of our coal.
00:43:17
Right? We're live right?
00:43:19
And you over the head, right, fucking metaphor, right?
00:43:21
Right? Like, okay, which is why they
00:43:22
can't make any good like a rock or movies right now a decade
00:43:25
ago. That's what came out way before
00:43:27
the scolded culture became rich, just like it's just, they
00:43:30
weren't they. It's nobody's taking, it's not
00:43:33
Tom, Wolfe. He was like in some ways
00:43:36
himself, a person very embedded, in Wall Street, he clearly had
00:43:42
I'd like of point of view on it but he was just a funny writer
00:43:46
and he was willing to like you can't have like a funny
00:43:49
interesting account. Unless you actually are willing
00:43:52
to understand the thing, your skewering and you have some like
00:43:56
love for it to at a deep level. Yeah there's a Thomas pynchon
00:43:59
book about tech in the early 2000s called bleeding edge which
00:44:03
is like not great. It's not like it's like it's too
00:44:08
dense but it's incredibly knowledgeable you know like I
00:44:10
started reading it when I got an A Every attack and it's like
00:44:13
he's like fucking discussing like the specifics on how a
00:44:15
round is put together and like para passu and these like
00:44:19
extremely small Tech terms and is like I don't want to read
00:44:21
that now. Anyway, but we could guess
00:44:24
conclude the section being like it's, you know.
00:44:26
So we have this period that we're about to find out Reich,
00:44:28
whether anybody gives a shit about this stuff, right?
00:44:30
Yeah, Beyond us and it could inform, you know, whether it
00:44:33
will be like the next wave of these things.
00:44:35
Or this is just going to be, like, another fad, like, you
00:44:37
know, teen dystopia movies that they were all doing like 10
00:44:40
years ago that no one hears about anymore.
00:44:42
Or you know, if that's going to be like the tech, you know, the
00:44:45
tech collapse story of like the 22s or whatever you call it.
00:44:48
I mean I think it will. Yeah I will I think part of it
00:44:51
will depend on if people watch it.
00:44:54
If it's good. You know.
00:44:56
Like that's the other thing like because like some people I'm
00:44:59
obviously biased but I think the show is very compelling and like
00:45:04
very good so like I think it's it will depend on if the stuff
00:45:08
is acclaimed if this stuff like has legs or re-watch You're like
00:45:12
propulsive - the thing that I think really works with our
00:45:14
shows that you want to keep going, you know, and they're
00:45:18
doing a serialized release. So we each week is going to be
00:45:22
like, instead of just like, Netflix dumping everything it's
00:45:25
going to be, which I think is smarter actually to do.
00:45:28
So, it's I'm bullish on the tech movies and TV shows because I
00:45:33
think that people always want to see like we always want to
00:45:37
watch. Sort of a rise and fall and we
00:45:40
always want to watch sort of like the outside versions of all
00:45:43
the emotions. We already feel every day and
00:45:45
that's always best done through the stories of people who did it
00:45:49
on a bigger stage with more at stake.
00:45:51
So, like in, I feel like in the 80s in the 90s like sort of in
00:45:56
the 80s, you had all these like shows about like you know end of
00:46:01
the 90s about like Andy Warhol and things that were happening
00:46:04
in the 70s Glam Rock and that was sort of the stage A John,
00:46:08
which we were exploring those ideas, and then like after the
00:46:11
80s, you had a lot of Wall Street content.
00:46:13
And then, of course, after the wall street, collapse, it a lot
00:46:15
of Wall Street content. So Tech was for a while.
00:46:18
The way the culture. Our was funneling, our big ideas
00:46:21
about winning and losing and about like what it meant to take
00:46:24
risk and be like the go like great man, Theory stuff was all
00:46:29
just happening in Tech. So that's where we're going to
00:46:30
explore it for a little while and then there's going to be
00:46:33
some Rush of like horrific Washington, d.c. pop, That comes
00:46:38
out a decade from now I'm very curious.
00:46:40
I'm like already, like not into it but whatever.
00:46:45
So this is the fascinating thing about this era though because
00:46:47
like, you know, you want to talk about who cares about some of
00:46:49
the stuff, does it have a wider audience?
00:46:51
I never would have expected that a fucking show about a media
00:46:53
family and the boardroom fights and like who's going to take
00:46:56
over the company from their decrepit, criminal father is a
00:47:00
show that was going to be like a huge as I can see.
00:47:03
That's not what the show is about.
00:47:04
The show is about kids, who have a shitty dad, right?
00:47:08
Everybody wants to see that show, right?
00:47:09
And people have always liked to gawk at wealth.
00:47:12
I mean, wealth is always been something people have had those
00:47:15
right? And it's and it's funny.
00:47:16
But yeah, the the media immediately shrinkage not also
00:47:21
be funny Cask. I mean, we sort of touched on
00:47:25
this on the Alex Heath episode. It's been on my mind a lot and
00:47:29
it flows through both sort of the Uber and Facebook Stories.
00:47:32
I mean, just the, you know, whether the media is goal is to
00:47:35
like, unseat you Like a Travis or a Mark Zuckerberg, and we
00:47:41
sort of uber was in some ways, the test case where it was
00:47:45
there, I mean, we were both covering it.
00:47:48
It did feel like there were legitimate stories and I was
00:47:52
surprised, you know, when he was pushed out and, you know, so I
00:47:57
don't know, but there was definitely a sense that every
00:47:59
story was building towards will this guy be removed?
00:48:02
And then we saw her saw a version with we work.
00:48:07
They'll Maybe The journal was sort of more singular in sort of
00:48:11
that. And then with Facebook, it feels
00:48:14
right now that at least some pockets of the Facebook coverage
00:48:18
are really trying to unseat Mark Zuckerberg.
00:48:22
So I don't know. What do you, how do you think
00:48:24
about this sort of have played a big role in The Uber Saga
00:48:27
covering Facebook, where it does feel like the media is driving
00:48:33
whether these CEOs, you know, stay in their jobs.
00:48:36
Yeah. Coverage to me is fascinating
00:48:40
because I think there are folks and you can, I think there are
00:48:44
fine arguments on each side of like of this.
00:48:47
There are some people who are purely oppositional against
00:48:51
Facebook, right? They feel like they've sort of
00:48:54
decided Facebook is bad for the world, a Bad Company you know
00:48:58
like just sort of like that is their position that's definitely
00:49:01
their Twitter sort of stance and position and that's fine.
00:49:06
If that's what your outlet is. Allowing you to be or whatever?
00:49:10
I don't think that's my role. And so I and I but I also like I
00:49:18
also find it more effective to just sort of like let let things
00:49:24
sort of present things like as they are and then people can
00:49:28
sort of decide. This is great, this is awful or
00:49:31
whatever I agree with you. At the same time that like what
00:49:35
is the drum beat to all this intense coverage as it goes
00:49:37
along. And it does feel like the climax
00:49:40
is ultimately. Well, is this the buck stops
00:49:43
with you? Have you failed, should you
00:49:45
still be at the head of the company as the head of the
00:49:47
company? I think part of that is also fed
00:49:49
by being a public company and I mean maybe Uber is like the
00:49:55
exception of this but like shareholders also demand change
00:49:58
in times of like, great crisis, right?
00:50:01
You just saw that would Peloton and like them sort of ousting
00:50:05
the dude because of how Fucked up, it is.
00:50:08
And so I think that is kind of the backdrop as well, but I
00:50:13
don't know with Facebook, it feels different because of how
00:50:18
emotional people feel about it about the company and about
00:50:22
Mark, specifically. And I have a lot of mixed
00:50:25
feelings on what the coverage is, you know, but I obviously
00:50:29
like, critical coverage is good. I just think that, like, it's
00:50:33
interesting to see some folks just be like, this is my goal,
00:50:36
this is a bad company. I'm doing is sort of like taking
00:50:40
taking it out essentially, so I don't know.
00:50:43
I mean I think it's a valid position if that's what you want
00:50:46
to do but everyone has to sort of figure out what's
00:50:48
interesting. I mean, on the Uber story, you
00:50:51
know, they're all these scandals, but there was also
00:50:53
just, you know, Uber was a company that lost a lot of money
00:50:57
and like, wasn't really necessarily reforming its
00:51:00
business and there was some Financial pressure to just sort
00:51:03
of bring in a different strategy of what could be sort of.
00:51:08
Of a huge disaster under sort of a bill girly.
00:51:11
Way of thinking I mean given Facebook's enormous stock
00:51:17
declines like you do wonder if the piece of the puzzle that was
00:51:20
missing with Facebook was the actual financial problems you
00:51:25
know it was a great business so Mark Zuckerberg kept
00:51:29
consolidating power and the company works.
00:51:32
So who cares if they're scandals?
00:51:33
The media can scream all at once but things will continue.
00:51:37
But now we're really Seeing the stock market hit so not knowing
00:51:41
anything inside. That would finally be the piece
00:51:43
that would worry me if I were, I don't know Mark Zuckerberg, or
00:51:46
what's your read on that? I have heard that he has not
00:51:49
been in a good mood lately. I am like, it's funny because I
00:51:54
think I'm very curious if we look back in a few years and see
00:51:59
right now is some sort of turning point because it does
00:52:02
feel like they are in. I mean, it's funny because we've
00:52:05
always treated Facebook as or the coverage has been here is
00:52:10
all this stuff that they're doing whether it's intentional
00:52:13
or unintentional that has these secondary effects that can be
00:52:15
very awful. Right?
00:52:17
And how do you reckon with that? But at the same time, the
00:52:22
underlying sort of stable, you know, thing is like consistent
00:52:28
quarterly growth. Consistent profits, consistent
00:52:31
sort of like trust in leadership because they've been able to
00:52:35
sort of innovate their way into innovate.
00:52:38
Nevada. I mean, you know, copy or choir
00:52:40
choir, right into a sort of next successive, phase of staying on
00:52:46
top, at least in some markets. And I think that's now a
00:52:51
question mark where it wasn't in the past, like can they fix
00:52:55
their apple? Google sort of advertising
00:52:59
member measurement, issue around mobile devices which is rapidly
00:53:02
changing over the next few years and now are people going to go
00:53:07
start. Spinning add money, somewhere
00:53:09
else. That's like, I think that really
00:53:11
fucked up the stock. I think I think them hitting
00:53:14
growth ceilings on some of their legacy properties is fucking up
00:53:17
the stock. I think that there's like
00:53:20
they're like a bunch of different things that kind of
00:53:22
all happened. At once that they reported in
00:53:25
this earnings that made stocks made everyone sort of be like,
00:53:29
oh my God, is this some sort of ceiling that we should be
00:53:33
looking at? So I think it's more a question
00:53:35
mark that ever, you know, they're essentially saying We've
00:53:38
done this before. We can do it again.
00:53:41
You know, like, trust us because I'm Mark Zuckerberg and I'm
00:53:44
Sheryl Sandberg and where the Dream Team.
00:53:45
But, like, I haven't had many heard many great answers beyond
00:53:50
that so far, you know, you know, we've talked a lot about
00:53:54
Spotify, but just as, I don't question, you talked about how
00:53:57
much money you wrote a story recently, revealing the fact
00:54:01
that Joe Rogan had been paid, in fact, 200 million dollars with
00:54:05
the option for more to come to Spotify which is indicative of
00:54:07
this. Dia that for a company to stand
00:54:12
out in a really crowded media space, like podcasting, you have
00:54:15
to have a star. Now, do you think that both the
00:54:19
cost of Joe Rogan to get him and then the cost of having all of
00:54:23
your eggs in one star basket? Implode so spectacularly?
00:54:28
Do you think that that is going to have people?
00:54:31
It's going to cause people, especially in the podcasting
00:54:33
space. It's so crowded to rethink the
00:54:35
idea of a need for one star, one voice.
00:54:38
Yeah, I said well in talking to so I worked in the story with a
00:54:42
few colleagues who were all to just amazing reporting and
00:54:45
digging to find folks involved in this.
00:54:48
And like you have to remember Spotify was in a historically
00:54:53
shitty business where they were not making any money, for a long
00:54:56
period of time. Music is terrible, they make
00:54:58
like no money, the label, still have them over a barrel on just
00:55:01
like what you can get out of streams from artists and still
00:55:06
screwing artists on paying them very little.
00:55:08
Per stream, even if you are making millions of streams
00:55:11
everyday. So against that backdrop, they
00:55:14
needed to get into a different business and they needed to do
00:55:16
it quickly. They saw podcasting, is their
00:55:19
chance there. The field has been fragmented,
00:55:22
historically, I mean sub stack is looking at it and wants a
00:55:27
piece of it. Like, no one apple has kind of
00:55:29
squandered, whatever lead it might have had at some point by
00:55:33
its podcasting app, being terrible for very long time.
00:55:36
And they didn't, they kind of kind of Cared about it, maybe
00:55:39
they care about it more now. So, spotify's whole thing was
00:55:42
like, this is our, this is where we can actually make money.
00:55:45
Eventually, if we can bring up ad Revenue, through gaining
00:55:50
audience, and like big podcasters, and then create a
00:55:53
long tail of smaller podcasters to come onto our platform and do
00:55:56
exclusives, or at least just beyond our platform at all.
00:55:59
This is where we actually make margin compared to this shitty
00:56:02
music business. I think they think in order to
00:56:06
make a big splash, you go after a whale and there's Joe Rogan is
00:56:10
unparalleled in the world of podcasting as far as audience
00:56:13
goes, and I don't think they thought Beyond, we need as many
00:56:18
ears as possible, who can deliver that and Joe is the
00:56:22
first. And then after that, you've seen
00:56:24
them go after and have like, really mixes set success.
00:56:27
They've had these big deals with like Ava Duvernay and you know,
00:56:31
Harry and Megan and like a lot of these Obama and fucking.
00:56:37
What's his name? Bruce.
00:56:38
A Springsteen. Yeah, exactly.
00:56:40
Like which I know no one who listened to that.
00:56:42
Even the memory is like, Bruce Springsteen diehards, so sorry.
00:56:45
Yeah, yeah. And they sign these huge deals,
00:56:48
really scattershot success. Some of these things have not
00:56:51
even materialized at all. I think it's probably smarter to
00:56:54
go after the cult shows with cult followings.
00:56:57
Like I thought the gimlet acquisition was probably pretty
00:57:00
smart because of how many people like reply all and those types
00:57:05
of shows and they actually have an editorial since ability.
00:57:08
So so so I think over time perhaps if they do it well they
00:57:14
can build out this longer tail of small to medium-sized
00:57:18
podcasters with decent followings, but I think they
00:57:21
wanted to make a big splash with a ton of listeners and Joe was
00:57:26
Joe Rogan. Was that person?
00:57:28
And they didn't think through all the shit that comes with
00:57:34
him. Initially gimlet, seems so much
00:57:36
smarter because you have An editorial operation.
00:57:39
Give that we now. Can I Tom?
00:57:43
I'm sorry. Hi Tom's and I get one it's it
00:57:45
was I mean like look it's been a while since I've reported on
00:57:47
Spotify. So I can't speak to like the
00:57:49
current Thinking Inside the company as of like a year and a
00:57:52
half ago, this was not a well thought of deal within the
00:57:55
company. The amount of content gibbler's
00:57:57
doing, I'm not saying gimlet was a profitable, a no.
00:57:59
I mean, I'm just saying to solve The Joe Rogan problem to have a
00:58:02
brand in between you and I want to push back on this idea of The
00:58:05
Joe Rogan problem. Look, we think of it as a
00:58:07
problem because Does this guy is push?
00:58:09
You know, consistently having anti-vaccine people on this
00:58:12
podcast and that's like pissing people off that guy is brought
00:58:15
listeners. The show has continued to grow
00:58:17
while it's been at Spotify. We might think it has like major
00:58:20
implications for public health and we need to book some
00:58:23
anti-vaxxer people. I mean, learned learned from the
00:58:26
best, you know, Aaron he's kinda TS up first.
00:58:30
Yeah, I hear it Kris from it as well and I was like, oh
00:58:35
whatever, we'll do our own thing, but he was selling for
00:58:38
Million. We usually take some clinking,
00:58:40
this got something? Yeah.
00:58:42
Yeah, during Peterson. Are you listening?
00:58:45
Yeah, yeah, we're all on tiebacks at someone but no look
00:58:50
like, I think Joe Rogan has obviously hugely problematic.
00:58:54
Like I don't even need to defend that point.
00:58:56
Has it been an implosion for Spotify?
00:58:57
I'd argue not I think there's obviously consequences to what
00:59:00
they've done, but if you look at like, okay, 200 million for Joe
00:59:03
Rogan, which like, yeah, by the way, very very impressive work
00:59:07
by you guys. Unearthing that.
00:59:08
Number and is like a great lesson to reporters that just
00:59:11
because a number has been previously reported, it's
00:59:14
probably worth checking in on it and not just like, looking back
00:59:17
at the same number being like, as was worried, you know,
00:59:18
because again, can't tell you how much fighting we had to do
00:59:21
to get. It was that was an intense, one
00:59:24
Katie Rosman is the star there, but like, but that was the story
00:59:27
right now. Going to get between Katie
00:59:29
Rosman and a fact, like she will fucking cut you even though she
00:59:32
has a lot of yoga and whatever. And she's all like she will
00:59:36
destroy you. If you do Give her something
00:59:39
right? Yes, right, no.
00:59:40
I mean that the story was very well, presented and packaged in.
00:59:43
Like the New York Times way that like brought together a lot of
00:59:46
strands of, you know, what had previously been reported and you
00:59:48
know helping to like elucidate the strategy that others had may
00:59:52
be done as clearly but the story to me like what was like on that
00:59:55
was the hospitably knew was was you know, this 200 million thing
00:59:58
but that's what made it good like.
00:59:59
That's like it was a it was I'm proud of what we did
01:00:02
writing-wise, but I think you gotta think the best stories
01:00:05
have like that. Like, boom.
01:00:07
And then after that, it's A pleasant read and you learn
01:00:09
something, right? Because it's like you got to
01:00:11
impress, you got to impressive, like you gotta impress like the,
01:00:14
you know, the people that cover this data day.
01:00:16
So you have like a one nugget that's just like, all right.
01:00:18
Take that Lucas da each know I like Lucas.
01:00:38
For, he's great. I really enjoy that.
01:00:40
This is the best. People are the ones who make me
01:00:43
curse them, but I also like them, like they're not assholes
01:00:46
and those are are very few people who I dislike.
01:00:49
I think in this industry actively but the ones that are
01:00:52
fun or people like Lucas who's very good as job.
01:00:55
But also, I like him as a bright.
01:00:57
Any tweets a lot. And you understand that?
01:00:59
Yes, yes, I do. All right, so how do we land
01:01:02
This Plane? How do I write us?
01:01:03
And we can all go back to working, when can people watch
01:01:07
the show? How can you know what's your,
01:01:10
what's your venmo know? Yeah, so February 27th.
01:01:17
Sunday coming up in just a few days.
01:01:20
Now, first episode, It's on Showtime.
01:01:24
I believe you. Yeah, you can subscribe.
01:01:27
It's there's a Showtime app which I have because I cut the
01:01:29
cord so you can still actually watch that I and seven episodes
01:01:35
serial release over the next seven weeks.
01:01:38
So, Yeah, and then if you can't see it day of but that you will
01:01:42
see that. Someone just told me there's a
01:01:44
billboard on the 101 going, north now for it, so it's kind
01:01:48
of inescapable at this. Yeah.
01:01:50
Yeah. Congratulation in the Bay Area.
01:01:52
Lord. If you listen to this podcast,
01:01:54
you should probably watch this show because I think we're going
01:01:57
to be talking about it a lot. So if only to harassed and these
01:02:02
shared Universe, you know, we won't let it.
01:02:04
We won't let our affection for Mike bias.
01:02:08
Wow. That's a big plug for the
01:02:10
producers of billions. Don't watch it because these
01:02:15
guys made billions watching us, you won't follow along with,
01:02:19
you'll be totally lost. They're listening to dead cat.
01:02:23
They're listening. Do you think most of you will?
01:02:25
Most of the people who listen, this my guests, listen to it
01:02:28
week-to-week. Not not just like coming to the
01:02:30
episode because Mike's, I think we're going to get a huge Spike
01:02:32
because of Mike on the show. So you in particular, To
01:02:39
continue to listen to the podcast because they're very
01:02:41
invested. Yeah.
01:02:42
In my if you're at the lodge and this is Eric says Eric's 200
01:02:45
million dollar strategy. Strategy is riding on right?
01:02:49
Mike thank you for coming on. Thank you so so much.
01:02:51
Thank you for having me. This is super fun.
01:02:54
Thanks goodbye goodbye goodbye.
01:03:08
Bye. Goodbye.
01:03:09
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. Goodbye.
01:03:08
Bye. Goodbye.
01:03:09
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. Goodbye.