On this week’s Dead Cat, co-host Tom Dotan and Eric Newcomer talk about the sputtering scooter industry.
Starting at 36:00 we hear Tom tells us about his jury summons.
Give it a listen.
Get full access to Newcomer at www.newcomer.co/subscribe
00:00:06
Welcome everybody. It's Eric newcomer I've
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published and feel good here with Tom dote on.
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We got just the I don't know the Bros episode of dead crows.
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Only better better is on the planet, right?
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Now she will be reporting back to shortly.
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As to her progress, we're gonna talk about the end of the
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startup world. As we know it, I just published
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a piece about sort of the scooter industry, CEO, CFO of
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bird or stepping down. CFO of lime is leaving Sequoias
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position. They invested more than 100
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million is worth less than six million, right now, Birds
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market, cap is less than Million dollars.
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I kept accidentally saying billion.
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When I was filing this story file away, that he don't need
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those bees and I was literally like oh my God, every I started
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putting million in italics just to sort of keep track because
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I'm I mean, this is constantly react.
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You were emphasizing. Yeah.
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I was having sizing point but I also said, you know, it's just a
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compliment to the firm. I was shitting on in the piece
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but, you know, normally, when you're writing about Sequoia
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writing in billion, so it's funny to be writing in millions.
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Yeah. By the way, so track.
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So when you say Co sub down, that's Travis Vander, zanden
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yeah-hoo-hoo, cashed out so early in the whole Endeavor, I
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mean, you know, the information reported this back in the day
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that he, it seemed like he'd sold 44 million.
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I just sort of had just it with 10, was that during a
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fundraiser? He like took money.
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Yeah. What kind of thing is soaring
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The Soaring, you know, valuation smart.
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I mean, who made money off of? It is definitely sort of a big,
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a big question here but with vendors and instead we will say,
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like the real bird talk for later but with Understand and
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down and then the CEO of crack and stepping down.
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I feel like kind of the the bad boy CEOs.
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I know I've been chilling field sells for 20 billion.
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All of a sudden, the figment CEO.
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So all of a sudden, you know, the nice guys are coming out on
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top, you know, Dylan is the most like I don't know.
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Don't he's sort of Meek almost like you.
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He is not like the kind of guy who's like you're in the room
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and he wants to be clear that he's the CEO.
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He's more of the guy who's like hang out in the room and he
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Doesn't care if you don't realize that he's like, work the
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way more than you. I don't know, maybe he will
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corrupt but, but yeah, he's always been sort of like a quiet
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guy. And I've like, been around him
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before everybody, I mean, seems very likable that's a good
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Trend. So yeah, it's funny that Travis
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Van Der Zee and and who is, You Know, Travis kalanick 2.0 and is
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sort of known for being sort of aggressive and a deals guy.
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I mean, the kind of person work both at Lyft and Uber and like
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had falling at fallings out with with The exact same as he was
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doing right? He like, tried to sell lift
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Hoover's, you know, he was liking.
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I mean, just like I total like deals kind of guy, the kind of
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guy who can, you know, raise it like 2 billion for this like,
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you know, total top-line Growth Company, anyway.
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Okay, we're we can talk about scooters more.
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Hey, we like the big conversation that we want to
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have all of this episode is the world coming home to roost.
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We went through this whole period where it seemed like Tech
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startups were defined by Venture Capital dollars.
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Instead of feces investing in Tech things were attacked
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because VCS invested in that, right?
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Right. And if he feels like yes, like
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interest rates and everything are forcing the new reality, but
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I do think part of what's happening is that these
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Technologies companies that were so speculative weren't great,
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technology businesses weren't that profitable so we rarely
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Tech businesses at. All right, right.
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I mean now Now, that all the reporters get to say we were
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right. All along, all right?
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I don't know. Well, but we also fueled a lot
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of their success, by writing all of these stories about how
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impressive their rounds were, right?
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I mean, like, we definitely bought into the message that the
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founders were pushing, and the VCS were pushing, which is like
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every round is a groundbreaking achievement.
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Every valuation is a headline. The fact that you raise, the
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money is the story. And so companies, like birds
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certainly, which I mean, their, their trajectory and I'm their
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trajectory to getting two billion dollar valuations like,
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hahaha. Now was the story that happened
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so quickly and we knew it was this absurd at the time I
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always. Yeah.
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At the top of that, I mean, I was all about like, chasing
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unicorn valuations but it makes total sense to me.
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I mean it was a period. Well, it's always a period,
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where reporters feel very defensive about being the one's
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to just call things as they see it.
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We're moving away from that, somewhat with this sort of
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reported call. One style, right?
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But at the time it was like why are reporters pooh-poohing
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everything. So we were deferential to the
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amounts of money but then we would write stories about like
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the unit economics and valuations.
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It didn't make sense. And we were told we were we were
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shitting on ideas and optimism because we would actually try to
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do the math, but so let's like trace the scooter trajectory
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because I think it's a really interesting one because I
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remember specifically, because I cover Tech in La for a long
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time, I was going to say, Runs back to Tom's obsession with the
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La Tech scene. But bird is that story, right?
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I mean, bird is like a quintessential La tech company
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and it started in Santa Monica. And I mean Travis Vander zanden,
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I don't know if he's from LA or not but I just remember it
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because it just distinct in my mind.
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That's why I'm making the LA connection is a really good
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source of mine was telling me that he was going to be joining
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this company or you didn't tell me what the company was.
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He's like I'm going to be joining a company.
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I think it's an amazing opportunity.
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I think it's going to be bigger than Uber and this would have
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been Like 2017 or something. And so like that's a real
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statement, right? I don't even know what bigger
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than Uber means. Because right, right.
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That beat a backward is a 60 billion, 70%?
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You know, the things were looking great for them, when
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that's part of the dynamic was Sequoia that.
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It's like, they missed you over. So now they get their second
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shot and they're not going to let this one get away, right?
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Right. And so then finally, you know,
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like I find out where this person went and it's bird and
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you know Corey who wasn't able to make this episode of Cory
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Weinberg, my colleague at the information was very E into the
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scooter story from an early day. And and I just, I I was, I
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hadn't used them. They hadn't really popped up on
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the streets in the ways that they kind of magically did, but
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I just didn't, I don't know. I had no idea how to grasp what
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this opportunity was and why people were so excited about not
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to be cynical. I was just like, why the fuck
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are we talking about scooters, all the sudden living in San
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Francisco? It really was just like one day.
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Three companies, just started putting their scooters on the
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sidewalk, right? Yeah.
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It was, it was I think, okay. Just one, one thing that I
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wanted to be on the record about that, I think is amusing.
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Dark Glee? Is that I often think, I mean
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upfront Ventures, Mark Ceaser, the sort of probably the most
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famous sort of l a local firm. Yeah.
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Big boosters of the scene didn't get in snap.
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They sort of Miss some of the best that were no La investors
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and see ya. So they miss like the best l a
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company and then they sort of pay.
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It up to make sure they were in bird and like really sort of
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wrapped their reputation around bird totally.
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And then it was like the worst l.a. investment of them also and
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yeah, it certainly didn't referee.
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I mean it's funny because I saw the other day someone was
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pointing out there was like a map of, you know, LA's west side
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and it drew a triangle. And it said like five of the top
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or five apps that have appeared at the top 5 of apples.
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You know, I whatever, you know, the App Store were built in this
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triangle. Like the implication was snap
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and Tick-Tock and Tinder. And so there's always like La
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boosterism. I had, I never really believed,
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I mean, I live in New York now. I live in Brooklyn, but first of
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all, I believe in Silicon Valley sort of essentialism.
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But I also just think these sort of like, you just come off as
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super lame by doing like Silicon alley and like, all these, like,
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Silicon Beach. Yeah.
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Just like just admit that it's not, you know, like, you can get
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to know people, but like Silicon Valley, especially now is just
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Like on the internet. So I guess I always sort of roll
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my eyes in any firm that wanted to like position themselves as
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like building a local ecosystem. Well, but the thing about it too
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is like within that map that I was talking about.
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Those three apps did 04 the l8x scenes investors, right?
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Like Snap had no local VC's in it.
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Tick-Tock is musically which is I mean that's what was in LA.
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It's the Chinese company doesn't fucking matter for VCS and then
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Tinder was built inside I AC and Like an accelerator inside.
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I see so it really didn't have any Venture Capital inside it.
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So, you know, considering that all the LA boosterism, it's done
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nothing to the specific people that are pushing for the scene
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to be like a place that they could put their money.
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And so anyway, we can move on from the LA stuff, your accuser
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is like a funny aspect to it, but, but yeah.
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So anyway, like this thing, they keep raising more and more
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money, they expand to more cities, which is basically
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that's, that's the roadmap for for growing.
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That's right. Blitz-scaling, you know?
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To the worst degree, its its Hardware.
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So the whole low-margin, the whole idea that, you know, Uber
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was a platform is now suddenly sort of out the door so you see
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sort of some of the bullshitting, you know?
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Like yeah. And it it's just the sort of
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like, we can sort of take Tech metrics and apply them to Real
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World Companies and are just amazed that a company, you know,
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with with capex, actually, you had some interesting numbers in
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your piece. That would be fun.
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Kind of deconstruct because when you say that like it's a low
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margin business. I mean that basically is that
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the money that you pay to ride a scooter, barely covers the cost
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of Maintenance of these things, right?
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They're breaking down all the time.
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The batteries have to be replaced, they get stolen and
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they're all sorts of warnings and burpees Birds.
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The one that's public, lime is so private.
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There are all sorts of warnings and birds disclosures about we
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might have to change our estimates for how much these
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things like break down or, you know.
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The whole the whole maintenance of the fleet is obviously like a
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big part and it also just like drastically impacts their
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accounting. So there's just it's a really
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sort of weird business to look at because of the scooter costs.
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And then I think bird got you know they all try to get into
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selling the scooters and just all these, you know, all these
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things is sort of signal that. The model isn't working great.
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I mean, the core thing to me is just like the unit economics.
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Right, work like people. And it's just that simple.
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It's like, yes. The fundamental thesis on
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whether or not. This is a good company just
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fucking tank. It's just like they wanted, you
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know, they needed to be able to take like a scooter, five times
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a day and they take it like, there's like a woman, my
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scooter, an individual scooter gets taken like 1.6 times a day
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for bird, you know, it just like, yeah, it's pretty much
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that simple. And then, yeah, they probably
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break down faster than they want.
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They get littered all over the place and then the city
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regulation makes it hard. You know, if you're in d.c., you
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can't really take us. Cooter straight across the city
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because I think all the Nash, you know, they're just all these
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carve-outs of where you can go, where you can't go batteries,
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die, brakes fail. It's just just a, you know,
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brutal business, my favorite anecdote, by the way about,
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like, you know, at the time that scooters were all over the
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landscape was, there was a hilarious story in Oakland, they
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were really all over the place in Oakland.
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I mean, that was to a degree, I've never seen, like, they're
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kind of, you know, they were definitely present in San
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Francisco and then other places like San Diego, it's kind of fun
00:11:58
to take him around like the boardwalk.
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But in Oakland they were like, everywhere, like blocking
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streets and so people would just throw them into Lake Merritt,
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right? Exactly.
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That's a real issue. You talked to the former execs,
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for these places, they're like not even like they're like
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lakes, rivers, oceans like everybody, right water.
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They're getting thrown into, and having to avoid and insincerely
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like, you know, nimbys and I'm not, I don't like nimbys, but,
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yeah. So they're all the type of
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cranky neighborhood. People are just like on constant
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Lookout till I call the police on the scooters, and To
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complain. So you just have sort of both,
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you know, just Bad actors or willing to like throw them in
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the water and then sort of the neighborhood watch complainer
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type. So from every direction you have
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people, it's a pretty shitty thing to have in your your
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warnings and disclosures in your s 1 that like a significant
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percentage of our assets could end up in a lake like doesn't
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seem like it's a pretty stable business when that happens.
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I just want to say before we bully the scooter businesses For
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too long. The I think I can speak for you
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but certainly for me I want them to succeed like a we have the
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reason everybody was rooting for them is like, oh yeah, this
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would be much better than Uber. Like what a what a Utopia would
00:13:12
be sure if it were its its batteries.
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You know, you're not like shoving more cars into the
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street, right? It is kind of convenient to take
00:13:20
them rather than walking and there's also like a business
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model thing that I like about them.
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But or are like the iconic conceptually that I like about
00:13:27
them that I want to talk about later.
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Yeah, I was rooting for them to succeed and I will say
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specifically because I take City bikes everywhere then that's
00:13:35
owned by lift, right? Made a motivate and and you
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know, I'm worried about those two because it's tied to lift,
00:13:42
but those are really fucking useful.
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Like, I would love for that to succeed.
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It would really, really problematic for my day-to-day
00:13:47
life. If it doesn't, and I'm not
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saying that they can't exist in some form that we're never going
00:13:52
to see scooters again. I'm just saying as a venture
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scale business, right? So then the, the pandemic hits
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everything. Ops, all these businesses are
00:14:01
completely fucked, lime ends up, having to take a pretty
00:14:04
significant down round and gets a major investment by Uber,
00:14:08
which roles there Scooter. And bicycle business jump into
00:14:11
it in exchange for State, who burn, maybe the biggest investor
00:14:15
of all of them in scooters, I wasn't able to get that 100% but
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I mean, Uber is poured a ton of money into lime.
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So the pandemic hits everything stops.
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All these companies are like scrambling to save their asses
00:14:27
things as they start slowly opening up the message of They
00:14:29
would give to the media was that actually we think scooters are
00:14:34
going to be a big pandemic winner because no one's going to
00:14:37
want to take public transit anymore.
00:14:39
They're still going to get around and here are these
00:14:41
scooters like right there for the taking, how sanitary is
00:14:43
that? You got to be, you know, it's
00:14:45
all about the scooters and like, right?
00:14:47
And they should be booming now, you know, I mean, it's yeah,
00:14:50
yeah. I mean, part of why I wrote this
00:14:52
is like I'm sick of people just saying like oh it's gonna work.
00:14:56
It's it just like we're figuring it out.
00:14:57
It's like, if this is like this should This summer over the
00:15:00
scooter. If this thing were, you know,
00:15:02
we're coming out of the pandemic.
00:15:04
Also that it was a great way to get around.
00:15:07
You know when people didn't want to be in Uber's, yeah II.
00:15:10
Just don't I don't think we need that much more data here to see
00:15:13
if it's no use some no there's no there's no like just around
00:15:16
the corner for them at this point.
00:15:17
Like the business is the business and I was just downtown
00:15:20
yesterday going into the office and dreamforce is happening
00:15:23
right now which is like you know the busiest San Francisco can
00:15:26
get which is also funny now because the busiest a Was go can
00:15:30
get now is still probably like 80 percent of normal
00:15:32
pre-pandemic. But whatever.
00:15:35
But there are scooters all over the fucking place because I'm
00:15:37
assuming these companies were like, oh, we're going to get all
00:15:38
these American sales reps, that are going to want to scooter to
00:15:42
and from their conferences and their yacht parties and stuff.
00:15:45
And no, I didn't see a single person on a scooter.
00:15:47
I remember scootering around San Francisco and like a suit
00:15:50
jacket, one time and felt. I mean, literally these
00:15:53
vehicles. I'm not sure.
00:15:55
Most people assume this hopefully have been on one but I
00:15:57
feel like you're just flying through the air without
00:15:59
Anything. I mean, because there's no, it's
00:16:01
not like a bicycle where you're, like, really like attached to
00:16:03
it. First of all, if you hit any
00:16:05
bumps, it feels like you go totally flying, right?
00:16:07
And so, it's a magical experience in that, your body is
00:16:10
just like, totally and that you have to turn off space.
00:16:13
You better fucking hope. It's magic, right?
00:16:15
Have you hurt yourself on a scooter?
00:16:16
Be I like sprained. My ankle for a while on one.
00:16:19
I never hurt myself, but I saw it happening like I could see if
00:16:23
I the image. By the way of you wearing a suit
00:16:26
jacket on a scooter, probably going to a meeting and that
00:16:28
South Park. Is like, that is like 2017, like
00:16:32
as a poster right there, exactly.
00:16:35
Yeah, yeah. Just like in the good times are
00:16:37
never going to end. Nothing.
00:16:39
Bad can happen here. It's like, I like, yeah,
00:16:43
probably two beers from some sort.
00:16:45
I mean, I think people drinking and I mean, I want to know, I
00:16:49
would love to know the percentage of scooter rides that
00:16:52
start after somebody's had a drink.
00:16:53
You need a drink to feel like confident on one of them, but
00:16:57
it's also kind of hard to like, unlock the apps.
00:16:59
Like unlock the scooter. So I feel like, there's like a,
00:17:02
there's some sort of balance between, like how drunk you are
00:17:05
but like, Austin and plate. I mean, awesome places.
00:17:07
I think they stopped you from using them after midnight.
00:17:10
I mean, clearly, they put all kinds of restrictions at sxsw.
00:17:13
It was so if they had him everywhere but you could never
00:17:16
use them in the areas that you needed to use them because they
00:17:18
didn't want people going around the convention Center's.
00:17:20
And that's the other piece of why, you know, this isn't going
00:17:24
to work out, but you didn't even mention the weather aspect to
00:17:27
that entire business shuts down, Down between like in most cities
00:17:31
between like October and like fucking April, right, right.
00:17:34
That's the other thing, Birds worth less than 90 million right
00:17:37
now. We're not even in winter like
00:17:39
buckle up for, you know. Yeah, falling stock market and
00:17:43
winter. It's just like brutal.
00:17:45
Yeah. And the statements that they
00:17:46
gave to you and your story were pretty hysterical, right?
00:17:49
Because was it bird? Or was it line?
00:17:51
One of them was not lime. Yeah.
00:17:53
What was that, there were dry working to drive to
00:17:57
profitability and it's like it wasn't even adjusted.
00:17:59
But, you know, it's just like, I mean, I was a little, you know,
00:18:03
I feel bad. Obviously, the spokes people are
00:18:05
trying to do the best they can, but, but it's like, you can't
00:18:09
most startups at least try to have to like bullshit.
00:18:11
You that they're like profitable if you like count all our, if
00:18:15
you discount all our expenses, we're turning a profit, you
00:18:18
know, right. But like discount, all this
00:18:19
better than Lake Merritt were actually extremely profitable,
00:18:22
but they couldn't even quite pull that one off.
00:18:25
It's like, oh, we'll get to a point where we can bullshit you,
00:18:27
maybe, maybe next year, get it. Bitches were driving to
00:18:30
profitability. Yeah, that wasn't great.
00:18:33
And then and what one of the companies just was it bird that
00:18:36
didn't even respond. They eventually did.
00:18:38
But like, you know, they didn't, they just fact-checked for me,
00:18:40
but they're the spokesperson that, you know, everybody knew,
00:18:43
you know, had has left already for Twitter.
00:18:46
You know, it's just sort of like, just another executive
00:18:48
who's gone. Yeah, but let's broaden this
00:18:51
out. I mean Beyond scooters, and I
00:18:54
certainly want your opinion on sort of the go puff World
00:18:57
literally while I was getting feedback.
00:18:59
Back on this piece, people are like, what about Grocery and
00:19:02
sort of quick demand. So I'm curious what you think
00:19:05
but to me you know, I certainly fold in sort of autonomous
00:19:10
vehicles like Quantum Computing. I mean Technologies and things
00:19:15
that people want but just require so much Rd.
00:19:19
It never quite made sense. Why the RND was happening within
00:19:22
a start-up rather than a big company or government?
00:19:26
And I just feel like with the market correcting, continue to
00:19:29
move down Down roll. These companies are on it.
00:19:31
You know, any company that went public via SPAC are just all on
00:19:35
sort of the lookout list and sort of, the the case to be made
00:19:39
that things. Things are not brutal yet.
00:19:42
Like, if you want to, like, look at where things were in the fall
00:19:45
of 2021, when there was like this battle for New York, where
00:19:50
all of these companies, you know, Joker and gorillas and
00:19:54
gatir and go puff. We're all trying to, you know,
00:19:57
win this supposed Market of people that A convenience,
00:20:00
store, items and groceries. I mean, it's very similar to
00:20:03
Uber and then scooters and, you know, just sort of really the
00:20:05
only twist to it is that they weren't most of them weren't
00:20:07
American companies, which I thought was kind of funny.
00:20:10
Only go puff, is based in the US, the other ones were all
00:20:13
European. And some of them have claimed
00:20:15
that they've made it work in Europe.
00:20:16
So, whatever we can deal with that.
00:20:18
But like, yeah, basically, there's been the ShakeOut, you
00:20:22
know, none of them are operating New York, except go puff at
00:20:24
their. I think a tear might still be
00:20:26
there. I don't know.
00:20:27
I've never used one of these service, really Are actually.
00:20:30
Okay. I mean, it's like a kind of
00:20:31
hysterical experience because, you know, the argument that they
00:20:35
always make is like, it's magical.
00:20:37
You the first time you use it, you know, you look at the things
00:20:40
you want and in 10 minutes, it shows up at your front door.
00:20:42
How amazing is that? And it's like, yeah, that is
00:20:45
cool. Like that idea is cool but like
00:20:47
any person who thinks about it for more than a few seconds or
00:20:49
like, how is there a business there?
00:20:51
How is there a business in delivering something?
00:20:53
Not even just in a day but like we know less than 30 minutes,
00:20:57
it's this invented need that. That people want, everything is
00:21:00
web then you know, you just sort of.
00:21:02
So like so that the ShakeOut happened and like the messaging
00:21:05
you get from people close to go puff.
00:21:08
These days are in the last couple of months.
00:21:09
This like you know winter is here, the funding landscape is
00:21:12
completely dried up but the winners are going to be the ones
00:21:15
with the most capital in reserve and so because we as go puff
00:21:19
have raised you know we have two billion dollars in the bank or I
00:21:22
don't even know what it is now but that was like the line a
00:21:24
couple of months ago. Then like we're going to survive
00:21:27
and when the world opens up again And, you know, the economy
00:21:31
is back on stable footing, the survivors will be, you know, the
00:21:34
winners like the ShakeOut has happened because of that we've
00:21:36
survived and I don't know. Maybe there's some examples you
00:21:39
could pick in other areas where that has been the case, like the
00:21:42
ones that survived the downturn were the right.
00:21:45
I left that open for lime, the lime wins, you know, right?
00:21:49
These businesses are way too competitive and you need sort of
00:21:52
just like a single player and I'll even say because I've done
00:21:56
a lot of go puff reporting in the last couple of weeks in, you
00:21:59
know, lead up to A story I did about their operations and even
00:22:02
the people that are extremely critical of how that company is
00:22:05
run, will leave open as a possibility that go puff could
00:22:08
be a winner you know that, right?
00:22:10
Or at least they're not convinced that it's lost that
00:22:13
like the whole business is fucked and so I guess I can't do
00:22:16
any better than that, right? Like if people who are already
00:22:18
critical to visit and say, there's still a possibility that
00:22:21
they could do, all right, in the end, then sure like, fine, I'll
00:22:24
I'll give them that. They're not making any money,
00:22:27
they're not profitable. They're not you No.
00:22:29
They claimed their contribution margin order profitable or
00:22:32
something. When funny.
00:22:34
It's just amazing how slow the World Turns like for out fast
00:22:37
startups are and everything like for these companies till I get
00:22:41
their comeuppance. It's just so long I mean in one
00:22:45
way it's good that the market and investors give them such a
00:22:49
large a Long Leash to experiment but I'm just sitting here
00:22:52
thinking like where does Uber fit into this?
00:22:55
Like on the one hand Uber is sort of the counter to all this
00:22:59
like oh Borders, you know, we saw this coming because, you
00:23:03
know, we reporters were shooting on Uber 3 billion.
00:23:05
So there was definitely a like and similarly, you know, I was
00:23:09
shitting on food delivery like doordash series a probably, you
00:23:13
know, so there I'm definitely willing to admit.
00:23:15
My point is that still, in my mind sitting here, listening to
00:23:19
you, I have this question of was super the case that, you know,
00:23:26
it does all work or Uber is just going to be the last one to To
00:23:29
really Plumb it because you would think if like if lime does
00:23:33
really poorly, an aurora does really poorly and people really
00:23:37
like sit with that. Then yeah, part of a value is
00:23:41
tied into all those things. Uber is complicated, as far as
00:23:45
it being a public company. It's just not been good.
00:23:48
So the fact that they still exist, if you want to give like
00:23:51
a participation award for that, then like, sure fine.
00:23:55
I there's no questions to me that even if Uber gets to like
00:23:58
cash, flow positive, On a annual basis at all this shit to the
00:24:02
claim that it is like a you know out of the out of the box, huge
00:24:06
success. Yeah, I don't know.
00:24:07
I don't buy that. I think there's a case to be
00:24:10
made. That Uber is valuable and is
00:24:11
like a key part of the way. Our Transit ecosystem works and
00:24:15
stuff like that. But but I mean, like, back to
00:24:18
food delivery and I think you got at this with your scooters
00:24:21
piece, you just have to make a case for the unit economics and
00:24:24
like either they work or they don't and it's really that
00:24:27
simple and it's like been clear with Jurors that they just don't
00:24:30
write. I mean, like the the supposition
00:24:33
of how people would use them didn't pan out, and with food
00:24:35
delivery, I mean, there's who fails, they don't work to pay
00:24:38
out, huge Tech salaries in the big overhead.
00:24:41
The corporate that these businesses required, could you
00:24:45
have a small Fleet of super efficient scooters only in the
00:24:48
parts of cities? The really make a lot of money
00:24:52
with subsidy from the government or something in the parts of the
00:24:55
city that do make money. I'm not saying they're like,
00:24:57
we're never going to see scooters again.
00:24:59
But the unit economics do. Sorry.
00:25:02
I just, you know, you publish The Story, You're like, well,
00:25:06
I'm not saying you'll never see a scooter on your city street.
00:25:08
I'm saying that like these are terrible invest.
00:25:11
Yes. And it's the same thing with go
00:25:13
puff like the reason that people keep trying after these
00:25:16
businesses is that like it's a really intriguing Tam and and
00:25:21
you know if tech is about disruption then these things are
00:25:24
legitimately disruptive at least so long as that their existing
00:25:28
but I think like What is funny about these companies?
00:25:31
And I think gets to your argument that they're not tech
00:25:33
companies is that there's very few Acquisitions in this space.
00:25:37
You know when it comes down to it you're not really buying much
00:25:40
that, you know, within food delivery.
00:25:41
You see. Territorial Acquisitions.
00:25:43
So like go puffle by a company people need.
00:25:45
Same business. Exactly.
00:25:47
But it'll buy the and the reason they do buy them is because
00:25:49
there's no IP, there's no like software which then just raises
00:25:53
the question. What the fuck did you build?
00:25:55
If there's no real value your business other than the cash
00:25:58
flow that operates your business.
00:26:00
And like the the Commodities that you sell, then it's like
00:26:03
hard to say that there's a lot that was achieved through the
00:26:06
course of making this thing. And that's typically not only,
00:26:10
do you buy maybe, only sort of a network and customers, but you
00:26:15
buy it the burden of running businesses that all lose money,
00:26:19
right? I mean, there isn't one of these
00:26:21
that you could go to and you're like, oh, I'm Google, maybe it's
00:26:24
not a super valuable business, but if I own lift, you know,
00:26:28
throw off a little more cash. I can do other things.
00:26:30
It's like, no, you're buying an ongoing financial burden.
00:26:34
Yeah, it's going to hurt your business, right?
00:26:36
So but I want to try to be somewhat optimistic or at least
00:26:41
like complimentary of the attempt with these businesses
00:26:44
which is that I do think there's something to be said about
00:26:48
building a business in Tech. That isn't software.
00:26:51
That's a consumer business that isn't just trying to make money
00:26:54
through advertising because that's basically it with
00:26:56
consumer apps, right? I mean or consumer Mrs. As
00:27:00
you're basically just like selling attention to
00:27:03
advertising, or you have these kind of transactional
00:27:05
businesses, which also you have really shitty margins, and like,
00:27:08
I think it's cool. Like I think it's cool that Uber
00:27:11
has built a large, maybe sustainable business not through
00:27:16
advertising, right? And I think that should be
00:27:18
encouraged. Like I want investors and
00:27:21
entrepreneurs to think about that because that does affect
00:27:24
regular people and is just more interesting and Innovative to me
00:27:27
than advertising, which is like cause Has huge fucking problems
00:27:30
and society. And there is a sort of argument
00:27:34
that runs through the teals and sort of the entry since of the
00:27:37
world and sort of just the Silicon Valley, right?
00:27:41
That basically outside of Silicon Valley, most of the
00:27:46
American businesses, like sclerotic, and not building
00:27:49
anything, and it's just sort of maintaining profits from sort of
00:27:54
Ages, you know. We can't, we can't build Subway
00:27:57
systems, we can't, you know, just everything is Extremely
00:28:00
expensive and poorly done. And so, given that I think
00:28:04
Silicon Valley is sort of said, well, we should just do
00:28:08
everything because we are. We are the ones who are sort of
00:28:11
building sort of competitive aggressive businesses, and it
00:28:16
becomes harder to disentangle how much Silicon Valley success
00:28:20
is because of software and the beauty of software and how much
00:28:25
it's because we're the Smart Ones, and therefore we can do
00:28:28
everything and I do think this is sort of a corrective to know
00:28:33
software software was like the key that's really that was the
00:28:36
big part of it, you know. Like yeah.
00:28:38
Yeah like that. Like that's a big that's like a
00:28:41
specialized skill set and and scales really well and actually
00:28:45
like connects with the idea of venture capital, right?
00:28:48
Where everything else is just like, what if we apply the
00:28:50
software mindset to a bunch of other fucking businesses, right?
00:28:53
We're smart guys. Like what?
00:28:54
Yeah, I think that's like the fundamental like mistake, right?
00:28:57
It's like the worst Smart, Guys. And everyone.
00:28:59
Stupid. Right?
00:29:00
So we can do it and you know again it seems like it's so far
00:29:06
it's kind of like no harm in trying, right?
00:29:08
Like you haven't tank the economy because all these
00:29:10
businesses like. So I think it's stupid to get
00:29:12
too mad about it because I do see some people mad.
00:29:15
And a lot of you will made a ton of money.
00:29:16
I mean Adam Newman Travis like, right?
00:29:19
So it's successful as far as that goes, right?
00:29:21
Like you're mincing wealth and I guess the staff that like
00:29:24
supports these people and their new, you know, level of
00:29:26
Lifestyle. But can I ask you though because
00:29:29
you like, I remember a year ago wrote about like the return of
00:29:32
the consumer app or like investors that are still
00:29:35
interested in backing, that might be like a year and a half
00:29:38
ago, two years ago this point but really I thought you wrote
00:29:40
it for newcomer but was like yeah.
00:29:42
I've been is two years almost October.
00:29:44
Wow. Yeah.
00:29:46
Is it do. Do people still feel that like
00:29:48
is there still an appetite for investing in consumer business?
00:29:50
No, I think it's very challenged.
00:29:52
I mean, it's topic. I want to revisit.
00:29:55
I mean, the premise of that story.
00:29:56
I totally stand by the story. It was basically.
00:29:59
Consumer VC's just want to will consumer into being.
00:30:02
And in some ways it was a reflection of just the market in
00:30:06
that, there was so much demand to invest.
00:30:08
They had so much capital. And yet there were no new
00:30:11
platforms, really, for anyone to jump on and still they were
00:30:15
investing. So, I think that point was
00:30:18
totally right. And so, there was, you know,
00:30:20
this competition over companies, like pop shop and there was
00:30:24
dispo and be real, right? That was another right.
00:30:26
I broke the be real seat in series.
00:30:28
A that was, I think, And after that story and that, you know,
00:30:31
that company is sort of on the come up and of course Tick Tock
00:30:34
is a huge company that receives super valuable American
00:30:39
Investments, you know? I don't know, there's this
00:30:42
company. Whatnot.
00:30:43
That Connie Chana Dan. Driessen's in.
00:30:45
That's sort of, I think big in the Pokemon card world, you
00:30:48
know. But but yeah, I mean, I'm sorry,
00:30:50
the question is just where's consumer?
00:30:53
Investing stand or just? Yeah.
00:30:54
Is there a still appetite in that?
00:30:56
I mean, there's a difference between like, you know, dispo
00:30:58
and like it. Zoomer software app and, you
00:31:01
know bird. But it just the idea that, you
00:31:04
know, you can build businesses by like capturing an audience of
00:31:07
regular people that are in. It's not just like a business
00:31:09
expense is me for a while. The Neo Bank, like chime was
00:31:12
sort of a consumer, you know, consumer facing product.
00:31:16
I think the challenge Remains, What is the platform shift that
00:31:21
people are seizing on, right? That's what made all these
00:31:25
consumer companies possible in sort of the smartphone era.
00:31:29
And I think, you know a lot of people went to early arv.
00:31:33
Are you know, maybe if Apple comes out with a are in a couple
00:31:36
years? We'll have a platform change.
00:31:38
I mean, I think you know, like are pods or Alexis or whatever,
00:31:41
was that going to be a platform change?
00:31:44
There was an argument. It would be.
00:31:45
I mean clearly it isn't. But that was the thing like a
00:31:48
couple years ago. Audio is the new platform,
00:31:50
right? Here's the new fuck it, I don't
00:31:52
know. There is no you know good
00:31:53
friends of mine Rena Audio company that I'm very bullish
00:31:57
on. But yeah, the but yeah.
00:31:59
That. Yeah, that's a platform.
00:32:03
Well, I mean, I think to me if I were to play investor which I'm,
00:32:08
you know, affirmatively not. But I think you know, open a.i.
00:32:11
and just sort of this like, the AI General is tool stuff.
00:32:16
I mean, that's crazy. I do think the dolly, like, I
00:32:19
think a lot of people are going to try and make investments
00:32:23
around all of that. And see, I don't know if their
00:32:26
consumer applications that they can build, you know.
00:32:29
No, I don't know whether it's like, here's art for your, you
00:32:32
know, any easy way, just to use art and I don't know, but like I
00:32:37
think those even if that's not a good platform, my point is
00:32:41
consumer, investing is generally about chasing, sort of a
00:32:46
platform shift. The other thing I want to talk
00:32:49
about unless you have any final thoughts, son?
00:32:51
Just in case, we might put it in, like, you're off to be to go
00:32:54
puff right more or less, you're still writing about it some but
00:32:57
your, it's a little safe. Comes my I mean like I'm not, I
00:33:00
know I'm not spending my time, talking to investors and like
00:33:04
Executives in the space trying to ferret out what's going on
00:33:06
there. I will see that.
00:33:07
You think it'll be the next Amazon.
00:33:09
Do you think there's an Amazon to come out of this?
00:33:12
Well, Amazon survived the.com bust, and now is worth whatever.
00:33:15
I'm right. You're like have a long time
00:33:16
Horizon, you know? Yeah.
00:33:18
Yeah. They think that their Amazon to,
00:33:20
right? I mean that was a whole story
00:33:21
that I wrote. So no I don't personally I think
00:33:28
I can say this about go public. If without maybe getting in too
00:33:30
much trouble, I think they need actually work out the tech that
00:33:33
they have there and the basic systems of how they operate
00:33:36
their business, because I know a lot of people, you know, close
00:33:39
to. There are very proud of like,
00:33:40
the software that they've built in the fact that they built it
00:33:42
from the ground up. It doesn't seem to work all
00:33:44
that. Well, I'm sorry, it just
00:33:45
doesn't, there's too much like wasted food there.
00:33:48
They have no idea when deliveries are coming through.
00:33:50
There's just like the basic functions of how an operation
00:33:53
like that should work that they can't seem to do very
00:33:55
effectively, right? And so if you're going to like
00:33:58
beat the odds to Survive this winter within your industry.
00:34:02
And then also beat the odds of the general skepticism about any
00:34:05
of these food delivery companies and grocery delivery companies,
00:34:08
then you should have, like, a really like solid to the
00:34:10
top-down business and it just doesn't seem like they do.
00:34:13
And that, I mean, that fits, perfect.
00:34:15
That's a good end point to the scooter conversation because,
00:34:18
right? Really, the point is, if you
00:34:19
have unlimited money, you're not forced to build things, and sort
00:34:23
of a bit by bit way, where, you know, you make profits along the
00:34:28
way you have the Seems the work you're like, oh well waste a
00:34:31
bunch of food. But when this is at its end
00:34:32
State, we won't waste food anymore instead of saying oh we
00:34:36
can't build the next Factory until we the next Warehouse,
00:34:39
right? You have one with your fucking
00:34:40
house in order, right? Right.
00:34:41
Yeah, it really pisses me off. I mean, that's why I sort of the
00:34:44
blitz scale model, you know, happy to sort of, you know,
00:34:47
blitzscale and software. Okay?
00:34:49
But blitzscale and sort of the real world happy to see that go.
00:34:53
Well, there's actual waist and also like it is a little bit
00:34:56
tiresome. The like, Hoodwink that all of
00:34:58
these. He's did on VCS the public
00:35:01
whatever that it's like growth is equivalent to expansion to
00:35:05
new cities because that's basically what they did.
00:35:07
They were like look at this incredible growth that we've had
00:35:09
and really all they did was just expand their service to new
00:35:12
areas, right? That's the rebuttal I get on the
00:35:14
scooter story. People are like, well, if
00:35:17
they're really, you know, not working, why do they keep adding
00:35:19
new cities because every new city would make their business
00:35:21
worse and yeah, it is. Okay.
00:35:24
And I understand you can cut costs here and there.
00:35:26
And then maybe like, you know, the the some aspects of the
00:35:29
Dementors get a little bit better.
00:35:30
But you know, with scooters and now with go puff.
00:35:33
They're both of them are in non-expansion Airy periods where
00:35:37
they can't just add new cities to prove growth.
00:35:38
So they just all there. All of their efforts need to be
00:35:41
spent towards becoming profitable which at least as go
00:35:44
puff. Is concerned has meant making
00:35:46
costs by cutting employees. They have like had two
00:35:49
significant rounds of layoffs this year and so I guess during
00:35:53
this period why don't you build a real business and don't just
00:35:56
take money off the table and buy mansions in Miami?
00:35:58
But that's a The point, all right?
00:36:01
If you're still hanging around, you get to listen to Tom.
00:36:04
And I just have fun as friends because he has something
00:36:06
interesting happened. His life, maybe it has some
00:36:10
business import. I honestly don't know, but
00:36:13
somehow Tom was able to wheedle his way onto a jury which is
00:36:18
really every reporters dream II like want to know how they let
00:36:22
you. Yeah let you through in the
00:36:25
first place. I was like John Cusack and
00:36:26
Runaway Jury. I was like a plant that I work.
00:36:29
My Myself in there. So I could play the sides
00:36:30
against each other. Yeah, I went to have you jury
00:36:32
nullified or anything? Yeah.
00:36:34
What tell us a story? I don't know it.
00:36:36
I don't know it. So yeah.
00:36:37
What wasn't allowed to talk about it?
00:36:38
Well, you know, while I was injury like every fucking
00:36:40
citizen you know I got my like summons in the mail and like
00:36:43
most people you just sort of you check in every night.
00:36:46
It's to see if you're going to be called the next day.
00:36:48
And I wasn't I wasn't and then they sent me a survey
00:36:50
beforehand. So you have to fill out the
00:36:51
survey in 24 hours and just ask you basic things about like
00:36:55
where do you stand on law enforcement?
00:36:56
Where do you stand? Do you know anything about
00:36:58
finance and Financial Times and it's like, well, I'm not going
00:37:01
to give my answers on this podcast, but you answered
00:37:04
honestly, I did. Yeah, which I, if you can read
00:37:06
between the lines, I assumed was not going to get me the right
00:37:09
jury. But anyway, so but then I get
00:37:12
the call that I, you know, I'm summoned to come into US
00:37:15
District Courts, this was like federal court.
00:37:17
This wasn't, you know, like you know, your run-of-the-mill,
00:37:20
whatever. This wasn't, you know, local
00:37:23
small town, you know. Yeah.
00:37:25
This wasn't me being called into like, you know, and I was in a
00:37:28
John Grisham story. I'm going into like a, you know,
00:37:30
a Mississippi courtroom. This was a big boy US District
00:37:34
where was it? Downtown SF, it's off of between
00:37:38
Golden Gate and Turk. It's a big like 20-story
00:37:40
building not far from City Hall. It's where I like the federal
00:37:43
buildings. Are you get called in?
00:37:46
And it's like 8:00 a.m. and everyone's there just like
00:37:48
sitting in this in this room and we're all like bleary-eyed and
00:37:51
just looking like absolute shit and you know, they like have
00:37:55
like a court functionary, put on like a video, you know, like
00:37:58
it's driver's ed. We're all adults and watching
00:38:00
this like video of like Sandra Day O'Connor.
00:38:03
She was like their big get in the video explaining the
00:38:05
importance of jury duty and how valuable it is to a functioning
00:38:08
society that video itself was pretty hilarious because they,
00:38:12
like tried to answer some of the questions you might have of
00:38:14
whether or not you could serve on a jury and they had like
00:38:17
actors, you know asking these questions as if they were Jerry
00:38:20
members. So they had this one guy who was
00:38:22
talking to like the actor playing the judge and he was
00:38:24
like it because the judge is like, you know, you're not
00:38:26
supposed to discuss the case with anyone that, you know, No,
00:38:29
even people that you live with, while you're on a jury, is that
00:38:32
going to be a problem for any of you.
00:38:33
And the ones you remember was like, this is the actor.
00:38:36
He was like, well, I talked to my wife every single day about
00:38:39
what I've done during the day, and I think it'll be difficult
00:38:41
for me to not tell her what I've done on a jury.
00:38:44
Like they like, take the perfect actor plays.
00:38:46
Well, it's like an absolute like whipped his head shell of a
00:38:50
person. Anyways, tell your wife know,
00:38:53
you're not supposed to tell anyone interested, go home and
00:38:55
like they tell you're supposed to say I'm sorry.
00:38:59
Serving on a jury and it is a criminal case and yes believe me
00:39:03
that line like you gave me some like Pat.
00:39:05
Like yeah. So you you it appeared to your
00:39:08
duty even. Yeah I did even on Signal you
00:39:11
know. Yeah the point of an encrypted
00:39:13
messaging service if not I'm a shitty Source.
00:39:15
Yeah. But so anyway, so then they haul
00:39:17
us into the main courtroom for voir dire, which is jury
00:39:22
selection. And you know, they give you
00:39:24
numbers beforehand and I assume the numbers were just sort of
00:39:28
random, but mine was 14. And as they were filing Us in, I
00:39:31
was one of the people that, you know, they first file this in
00:39:34
satisfied, like the jury box and I was sitting in the jury box
00:39:37
and I was just like, okay cool. I get like nicer seats in the
00:39:39
people that are sitting in like the audience and the judge comes
00:39:42
in and the judge is this 80 year old dude?
00:39:46
Apparently he is. Steven Breyers Justice Breyers
00:39:49
former Justice Breyers brother. He's been serving on like the
00:39:52
district court forever and so he comes in and he gives us like
00:39:55
another speech about the Constitution and articles
00:39:58
whatever of the Of rights that make, you know, the jury system.
00:40:01
A key part of American democracy.
00:40:03
And then he goes through one by one for voir dire asking people
00:40:07
where they're from, you know, and what job they have because
00:40:10
that could potentially be a conflict right with that.
00:40:12
With the jury with the case. And that's like a couple of
00:40:16
questions to people. There's about 60 people in the
00:40:18
room. So, and he goes one by one
00:40:20
meticulously through each person, he's having a great
00:40:23
time, the judge, he loves this. And so goes on the line.
00:40:26
By the way, the whole thing is like a fascinating.
00:40:29
Like cross-section of like America of humanity because
00:40:32
these are people that are just like ripped out of their lives,
00:40:35
thrown into a quarry and like have to like explain who they
00:40:38
are to people. They don't know.
00:40:40
Amazing. Yeah.
00:40:41
It's just like, generally a strange thing to see happen and
00:40:44
like, you know, whatever post pandemic world, you know, we
00:40:46
lack connection with people. Like they're aspects of it, that
00:40:49
I find very compelling, the judge gets to me, he's like,
00:40:52
what job do you have? And I was like, oh, I'm a
00:40:53
journalist and he's like immediately, like this is more
00:40:56
interesting than like the 10 people that have worked in
00:40:58
healthcare. Or whatever beforehand and he's
00:41:00
like, interesting. What can you tell me about your
00:41:03
history and journalism? Yeah, which is way more than
00:41:06
other people had to ask and then I explained that I covered Tech
00:41:08
and I was in Los Angeles and then he's like I'm not that
00:41:10
interested anymore. Yeah this is this is not what I
00:41:13
thought it could have been right?
00:41:14
And so yeah we go through the whole room is always a couple of
00:41:17
cards in the audience, a couple of jokers who, you know, have to
00:41:20
like, you know, like it ongoing joke was he would always ask you
00:41:24
if you have children and are your children of them, you know,
00:41:26
are they employed? They have employable age and so
00:41:28
the It began to be, you know, like oh I'm you know, I live in
00:41:32
Livermore. I work as a radio lab
00:41:34
technician. I have a child.
00:41:36
Whose three? He's unemployed?
00:41:38
Yeah. Anyway, so my God, I can imagine
00:41:42
that being way overdone like, 50 people do that.
00:41:45
Yeah. But like the guys who think that
00:41:46
they found a new Twist on it are very committed to the bit right.
00:41:50
But anyway so that we take a break and he confers with it's a
00:41:53
US attorney's are you know it's the United States is the
00:41:56
prosecution and the defense and then we go Out for a break and
00:42:00
we come back and they start dismissing jurors and you know,
00:42:03
it's like it is and you know, like the TV shows are just like
00:42:06
Decatur a number 1. Number 7, number nine stand up
00:42:08
you're dismissed and I start to see the room starting to like it
00:42:13
starts to like shrink around me and I'm still in the jury box.
00:42:17
And then they asked people that were still in the, in the pews,
00:42:19
whatever you call them to like, you know, come move up to the
00:42:22
front. If there's Open Spaces in the
00:42:24
jury box, come sit here and then the judge sort of looks at both.
00:42:29
The council's and looks up there and says, is this your jury?
00:42:32
And he's like, Yep, this is our jury and I'm going, oh my God,
00:42:34
it's me. I did not, I really did not
00:42:37
expect this because they do Warriors.
00:42:38
Do not ask you any questions to try and eliminate you or
00:42:40
anything? They ask questions to other
00:42:42
people. I think they were committed to
00:42:44
me from the outset. The interesting which I was
00:42:47
shocked because they wanted somebody like involved.
00:42:50
Like I would think the worry with you would be, you're like
00:42:52
I'm gonna write about, he saw. No, I'm going to Salt, you know,
00:42:55
like I'm gonna like, yeah. Just like over-involved.
00:42:59
Like not take enough cues like the line used to always be that
00:43:02
they don't want journalists on juries because I don't know why.
00:43:07
Exactly, like, we're two were two independent and how we think
00:43:10
don't work, right? You don't want that independent
00:43:12
of a thinker? I think so.
00:43:14
Yeah. I mean, I think we should but,
00:43:16
you know, I later got resolution on why I was on the job could be
00:43:19
like the The Twist at the end of the story.
00:43:21
But so anyway, so they pick us and I want to know the case,
00:43:25
obviously, I don't know. So the case is the they were
00:43:29
Charging this this dude, this Romanian guy with financial
00:43:34
fraud, they charged him with putting a skimmer on an ATM
00:43:37
which is basically a device that could scan a debit card and grab
00:43:41
all the data from it and then putting a pinhole camera on the
00:43:45
ATM to capture the PIN code smart.
00:43:47
Yeah. And so and was able to then make
00:43:50
withdrawals from like they had seven or eight victims or
00:43:54
something for this guy. So they're charging with
00:43:56
financial fraud using an unauthorised access.
00:43:59
This device. That's the, that's the debit
00:44:01
card. And then and then they be, they
00:44:03
charged him with like Interstate fraud.
00:44:06
Because when the transactions were being made at the ATM's it
00:44:10
was peeing. A server out-of-state, some sort
00:44:13
of like cuz they it was First Republic.
00:44:15
Bank was the bank. That was defrauded but he was
00:44:18
withdrawing allegedly or well. Yeah, he was withdrawing from
00:44:21
Bank of America, ATMs, and I guess when you have to like, do
00:44:24
an interbank transfer, it pings a server that's out of state.
00:44:29
And so that was like an extra added crime.
00:44:30
That's unfair. That sucks.
00:44:32
It's like oops, you didn't wanna like commit out as, you know,
00:44:36
Federal that much fraud. I want to deal with just you
00:44:39
state for us. Yeah, exactly.
00:44:41
They should. There should be like I was
00:44:42
trying, you should be able to mount a defense.
00:44:45
Like I was doing my best to stay within the state.
00:44:47
It's this insane there. You know, this is the worst.
00:44:50
This is the punitive penises, right?
00:44:52
Exactly Global. It's this Federal overreach that
00:44:56
we can't just have a bank, the only only operates And stay so I
00:44:59
can commit my small crimes right?
00:45:01
Anyway. Well small crimes is the right
00:45:03
thing? We did you you convict on all
00:45:05
the charge? Well, no, but here's here's why
00:45:06
the how the case gets hilarious because the amount of financial
00:45:10
like fraud that happened here was less than four thousand
00:45:13
dollars. Oh my God, because each time
00:45:15
that this guy was withdrawing the cash, he would withdraw it.
00:45:19
The same amount would be two transactions ones for $420 and
00:45:23
the next for $380. And then each transaction had
00:45:26
like a fee on top of it because it was an interbank thing.
00:45:28
So, Every like transaction was this miniscule amount.
00:45:32
And so the prosecution calls up some of the people who were
00:45:36
victimized by this and it was the same story every time they
00:45:40
would get up there and they would like start to give their
00:45:42
testimony and is very clear, that they did not really want to
00:45:44
be here because they, you know, it was like, my name is Michael,
00:45:49
I'm a mechanic in San Francisco and they're like, how did you
00:45:52
find out? You know, that you even had
00:45:53
money taken from you? It's like, well, I checked my
00:45:55
bank records and I saw their withdrawals that I didn't make
00:45:58
and then they're like, Happened. Next like I told First Republic
00:46:01
Bank and a credit to me the money and that right?
00:46:04
They don't need him charge. The bank is the victim.
00:46:06
Really bank is a victim here. And by the way, it's a bank that
00:46:10
in total, you know lost less than four thousand dollars in
00:46:13
this process, right? So already that this is
00:46:15
tiddlywinks shit. This whole thing also that the
00:46:19
part of the prosecution was the Secret Service because
00:46:22
apparently maybe you knew this financial crimes are
00:46:25
investigated by the Secret Service.
00:46:27
I think I knew that on some Elementary.
00:46:29
School quiz Bowl level or high school high school quiz.
00:46:31
Yeah. Like in addition to protecting
00:46:32
like you know fucking Jared Kushner.
00:46:34
They also like investigate Financial crimes.
00:46:36
But anyway, so the case is the guy that's been at the defendant
00:46:39
here. Is this Romanian dude, who's
00:46:41
just like sitting there in the back, he's wearing a t-shirt,
00:46:43
the first day and then the second day he switches to a long
00:46:47
sleeve shirt and that's relevant to the case because there is the
00:46:50
prosecution's entire case came down to the fact that they had
00:46:54
pictures of this dope like at ATMs, and so they had pictures.
00:46:59
Sky kind of like leading forward like you know typing in the PIN
00:47:01
code and he had distinctive tattoos and you could see on his
00:47:07
arm you know, like in the pictures they had sort of like
00:47:09
tattoos sort of the ends of the tattoos that were peeking out
00:47:12
over, you know, through the sleeves.
00:47:14
And so you know like the key damning piece of evidence as
00:47:17
they had a picture of this dude shirtless that we had to like
00:47:21
stare at and like all parts of his arms.
00:47:23
If you can see like the full extent of his tattoos, it was
00:47:26
also very funny because his Choose the, the prosecution kept
00:47:30
talking about, you know, descriptions of it that you
00:47:32
could match to the photos that they had their like, you can
00:47:34
see, you know, on his arms. There's kind of a creature and
00:47:38
the appendage of the creature was religious Squirtle or
00:47:41
something? No, it was alien and Predator
00:47:44
like about our video, either way to predator and I was that it
00:47:47
was killing me the whole time. They were talking.
00:47:48
So vaguely about, like, what were these designs and she's
00:47:51
like, lawyers, just don't get out.
00:47:53
Like they have no knowledge of Pop Culture.
00:47:56
But so the case came down to the fact that they had Choose of
00:47:59
this guy kind of grainy pictures of him.
00:48:01
The defense never presented a case.
00:48:05
They, he didn't testify they arrested immediately after the
00:48:08
prosecution because their entire thing came down to Reasonable
00:48:11
Doubt, right? They were just like, because
00:48:14
they had, no, the prosecution had no evidence that he was at
00:48:17
the ATM's at this time, right? They had no evidence that he was
00:48:20
in California. They had no evidence that he was
00:48:22
in America. They basically extracted this
00:48:24
guy from Romania at some point and like, I don't know.
00:48:28
I'm 1/4 Romanian. There are a lot of guys who
00:48:30
fucking look like that. They just, you know, there's a
00:48:33
lot of like, he looks like a, like a cartoon henchmen, and
00:48:36
it's just like a, like, a basically.
00:48:38
It had like a striped shirt and like fucking I, you know, masks
00:48:41
on, he would be like, from a Looney Tunes cartoon, but
00:48:43
anyway, but they had no case was basically just like, is this
00:48:46
photo that you've looked at of him?
00:48:49
We didn't have anything else can actually in this.
00:48:50
Kinda, nope. Nope.
00:48:52
Just a picture of him and they how do they find him?
00:48:54
So, that's the big question about this whole thing.
00:48:57
It was like two things, how do they find him and why Are they
00:48:59
charging the sky for less than four thousand dollars in fraud,
00:49:02
right? And like I think what's going on
00:49:04
here is that there's a much larger ring of criminals that
00:49:08
they have wrapped up and that there were other charges that we
00:49:11
were not supposed to, you know, discuss like that.
00:49:15
We were informed of that weren't party to this case that are in
00:49:20
there. So there's something much larger
00:49:21
happening. Hmm, that we weren't privy to.
00:49:24
We were just supposed to adjudicate on this whole thing.
00:49:27
And so what was the debate? Like in the ERM well.
00:49:29
So we go back to the jury room after literally who's very fast,
00:49:33
you worried like you're going to be tied up all week.
00:49:35
Yeah. I had no clue.
00:49:37
There was, I honestly, if you could like time of possession I
00:49:40
probably spent more time in voir dire than I did like over here
00:49:43
in the case like the testimony started afternoon of Monday,
00:49:48
they wrapped up by afternoon of Tuesday.
00:49:52
So yeah we get to the Jury Room and we're all just like sitting
00:49:57
down and the First, that we had elected, as Foreman is just
00:50:01
like, what did you run? No, no, I didn't.
00:50:03
I didn't we just sort of like the tallest guy was elected or
00:50:07
like how do they actually was fairly tall?
00:50:09
I think we sort of look around the room be like anybody want to
00:50:11
be Foreman and then like one guy makes jokes like it would be my
00:50:14
dream in life to be Foreman and it's like you just got it.
00:50:17
We just made you Foreman. I know you thought you were
00:50:19
joking, but you probably actually did want it.
00:50:21
You probably want it because anybody, you can't.
00:50:23
Yeah, you can't say. Oh, I love to be like, I really
00:50:27
give you a little eager. I don't know.
00:50:29
No, right. But like the social dynamics of
00:50:31
how jury deliberations workout is pretty interesting too.
00:50:33
Because immediately sorry, but like the three white dudes like
00:50:36
commandeer the room like including yourself or yeah, of
00:50:40
course. But but anyway.
00:50:42
So the guy who's the foreman is like you know leading the
00:50:44
discussion is like so is there anybody here?
00:50:46
Who thinks? It isn't the guy and I raised my
00:50:49
hand. Why only what?
00:50:51
I'm the only one who I'm like, I'm like II don't know.
00:50:56
I kind of have Reasonable Doubt like they didn't lose a single
00:50:58
piece. Evidence.
00:50:59
And I could just see everyone's eyes just being like, oh my
00:51:02
fucking god. This guy like, oh my God, are
00:51:08
you re really? I was just I was so hung up on.
00:51:11
I like fucking I like I over journalisted it, I was just
00:51:14
like, whoa, I don't know like it could be reasonable.
00:51:16
Like have you so annoyed by the fact that the prosecution didn't
00:51:20
present any evidence other than like a photo of the guy?
00:51:23
And it's like but there's like you know there's affirmation
00:51:26
bias by that kind of thing. Like right you showed me a
00:51:28
person you tell Tell me is this person reports?
00:51:30
I'm going to think right person, right?
00:51:32
Yeah, it's not like, it's not like oh, we hear like, you know,
00:51:35
yeah. It were a social experiment.
00:51:37
You'd show people like 10, different tattoo people, and
00:51:41
pictures and say match them up or something.
00:51:43
Yeah, it is sort of like and it was like we could see the whole
00:51:45
tattoo, we could see like bits of it through the sleeve, right?
00:51:49
And the prosecution never told us how they even fucking found.
00:51:52
This guy. They said was through social
00:51:53
media. That was it.
00:51:55
This is an open source. This is like a text or a this is
00:51:57
like yeah. Sir.
00:51:59
There you go. There's your Tech angle.
00:52:01
But yeah, so that was what annoyed me so much.
00:52:04
It was like they didn't present an image expert didn't present
00:52:06
some sort of forensics guy who can tell us.
00:52:08
You know, it is my professional opinion.
00:52:10
That these tattoos match, the ones that you see in the
00:52:13
courtroom today. It was just like, look at this
00:52:15
picture you idiots is and it's obviously the guy and so I was
00:52:18
just mad about that basic right? I just felt like the prosecution
00:52:21
didn't do this. Crazy to me they couldn't get
00:52:23
like one other thing. You know.
00:52:24
Just like something like one of the like again, you know, he
00:52:27
did, they had no evidence. He was in and they had, they
00:52:30
found devices on him in Romania. They see these devices and they
00:52:32
found nothing on them. Why did they tell you that?
00:52:34
If there was no, there was cross-examination there.
00:52:37
Yes, wasn't okay. Okay.
00:52:38
Yeah, that was, that was obviously brought up in Cross by
00:52:40
the defense look by distinct opinion about this.
00:52:43
Is that this was the B team, right?
00:52:45
But anyway, I mean I'm sure there's a scene in the podcast.
00:52:48
Well, so that's my twist at the end.
00:52:49
But anyway, so so how many ways I really you promised us like
00:52:53
five twists here. Well you could tell me this is
00:52:55
any of this working - yeah. But anyway so they give us like
00:52:58
the binder and Like, you know, flipping through the photos of
00:53:00
like the guy and like in shirtless dude, and then the
00:53:04
picture from the ATM. And I'm like, yeah, it's him.
00:53:07
Sorry. Like it just is right as much as
00:53:10
I can make it him. I mean, yeah, I don't know.
00:53:13
And so so yeah. So so we voted to convict on
00:53:15
almost all charges so you were like, you think they would have
00:53:18
just like, all right, we're done right?
00:53:20
I like how long did you hold them up or like, it was just
00:53:22
like 15 minutes. An extra, five minutes.
00:53:24
I don't know. Maybe I just wanted attention.
00:53:26
Maybe I just want people to have to convince me, right?
00:53:28
Right, no one was even really trying to convince me.
00:53:30
They're big very nice to me, but everyone else was just like,
00:53:33
dude, it's the guy. I don't know what else?
00:53:34
To tell you, right? He had a very as the, as the
00:53:37
prosecution would say it. A characteristic knows which
00:53:40
like as someone in the characteristic knows Community,
00:53:43
you know, there's there's there's more than a few of us.
00:53:46
But anyway, so yeah, we go back in the courtroom, you know, we
00:53:49
deliver the verdict and then they have us, go sit down in
00:53:53
like, the, the jury room. Again, the judge comes in tells
00:53:56
us again about how amazing we are and you know how great you
00:53:58
are. Systems are.
00:53:59
And then apparently there's this portion of the end of Trials
00:54:02
where you can go back into the Jury Room.
00:54:04
The defendant has left and you can kind of like chat and pal
00:54:07
around with the prosecution and the defense.
00:54:09
Hmm. Because they want to hear from
00:54:11
juries like oh what did you like?
00:54:13
What didn't you like you know thoughts interesting.
00:54:15
And so I was like I've already given up most of my day being a
00:54:18
might as well just go in and do it.
00:54:20
And so we're sitting the jury box and the prosecution's there
00:54:23
and the defense is there and they're just like so what I mean
00:54:25
yeah. Like what did you like what
00:54:26
didn't you like and they're like was anyone knock?
00:54:28
Convinced and the defense was just like, did anyone not think
00:54:31
it was the guy and I raised my hand and they were just like
00:54:34
what's wrong with you like having you not even the defense
00:54:38
like no offense was being nice about it but they turned out
00:54:40
were like a pro. They were doing it.
00:54:42
Pro bono. Yeah it worked for some large
00:54:44
Law Firm, you know. They were pretty Junior partner.
00:54:47
Not Partners. They really pretty Junior.
00:54:49
Like fresh out of law school attorneys.
00:54:51
One of them, like, his parents were in the audience watching
00:54:53
him. Oh my God, which was cute.
00:54:55
And so it's so yeah. So then like, you know, the jury
00:54:58
starts like picking a Arthur case being like well, you know,
00:55:00
you on the defense you really have very expressive eyes.
00:55:03
And so every time I saw you're reacting to God, I hate this
00:55:06
stuff. You tell people they can be
00:55:07
experts and they're just yeah yeah I thought it was fulfill an
00:55:10
answer. They don't know anything like
00:55:13
yeah, but it's like you literally were sub person that
00:55:14
they pulled off at the street to go fuck itself.
00:55:17
Someone right. But now you feel like an expert
00:55:20
because the judge has been telling you you're like a
00:55:22
goddamn hero. You're like you are the jury,
00:55:25
you're the person they're supposed to impress, so whatever
00:55:28
you happen. To think that's correct.
00:55:30
So that you can just speak with, like, utter confidence about,
00:55:33
like, strategic mistakes of like someone who knows far more about
00:55:38
this than you lie. Oh my God.
00:55:39
It's right. Yeah.
00:55:40
It's like someone who like is fifty thousand dollars in debt
00:55:42
because of law school, I would end like had the past, the bar,
00:55:45
I trust a little bit more than, like, you know, whatever some
00:55:48
you know, at home, nursing technically guy, trying to make
00:55:51
the best version of like the joke about their two-year-old
00:55:54
being unemployed. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:55:56
But anyway, so then but that is like, I think an older woman it
00:56:00
was in the jury started to feel a little uncomfortable that we
00:56:02
were like, people were attacking their case and so she's like,
00:56:05
well, I just want to say, I thought the prosecution, and the
00:56:08
defense did a lovely job. Oh my God.
00:56:11
Just amazing. And I think you guys should be
00:56:14
very proud of yourself and this is San Francisco.
00:56:16
This is a San Francisco problem to.
00:56:19
Yeah, I really like new for New York.
00:56:21
They must be I I would love to see the data on like New Yorkers
00:56:24
are not sticking around for this.
00:56:26
It's like this is gonna stick around.
00:56:28
It's already. It's like what's wrong with you?
00:56:30
Right? Oh, it's like you've taken time
00:56:31
out of your day. Like what?
00:56:33
Yeah, it's these are people who. Like, I don't know if Ali.
00:56:35
What was your angle? Why are you sticking around?
00:56:37
Well, I just well because I was trying to see if I can Source up
00:56:40
with the US attorney's, right? Wanted to see.
00:56:42
And so at the end of like asking questions, one of the US
00:56:46
attorney's, he's like, hey, can I ask you guys a question or
00:56:48
like? Yeah, please.
00:56:49
He's like you the journalist how do you like being a journalist?
00:56:52
How do you like working at Insider?
00:56:54
And so I answer that question and then I talked to the guy in
00:56:58
the end Guess he used to work for the Daily Journal.
00:57:01
I'm just like a legal journal and so he had aspirations to be
00:57:04
a journalist. And so I asked him why they
00:57:06
picked me. That's the funny thing about
00:57:07
being a journalist. You meet all these richer people
00:57:09
than you were like oh yeah. I wanted to be a journalist and
00:57:12
then I grew up there was still kind of a sadness in his eyes
00:57:16
though. Like I don't know.
00:57:17
He just there is like they that's that's the exchange know
00:57:20
they think their job is to be a journalist you like, you are.
00:57:24
Yeah. But anyway, I will say, you
00:57:26
know, through that whole experience it was short, which
00:57:28
helps It's a lot. The case was like very small
00:57:30
potatoes so I wasn't like weighing over someone's life and
00:57:33
death. I had a fucking blast, I loved
00:57:35
it. I thought I hope I hope they get
00:57:36
an appeal out of this. I hope something you said just
00:57:39
ruins this whole case and now that they're at a mistrial
00:57:41
because of yeah exactly there. Well you saw, I mean the crazy
00:57:44
thing with who is the woman who like was tied in the Epstein
00:57:48
thing who got convicted July Maxwell.
00:57:50
Yeah and then like a juror in that case like said something
00:57:53
publicly that created all this problems for what they thought.
00:57:56
There's gonna be a mistrial. Yeah right I forget what
00:57:58
happened. Did Get resolved there.
00:58:00
Well, I don't think they've done a new trial so, yeah, I think it
00:58:02
did. But I mean look, the judge tells
00:58:04
you at the end that you're allowed to talk about the case,
00:58:06
there wasn't any qualifiers put on right and clue the defense
00:58:09
didn't give a shit about this one.
00:58:10
The I think they have bigger widely plea.
00:58:12
This that's what doesn't make sense.
00:58:14
If it was like, I mean, if he wanted to say, he was with you,
00:58:18
you don't do the sentencing. Somebody else now judge does
00:58:20
that okay? Do you know whether it was or
00:58:22
no, that'll happen in a month or so, but the guy's last name is
00:58:25
Coe patch coap CEO. PA CZ or something.
00:58:30
So if any one of our listeners that are still listening, want
00:58:34
to want to search this thing out.
00:58:36
I can't imagine it's gonna be for that long.
00:58:38
Unless there's other shit that he is wrapped up in, with which
00:58:41
I would assume what happens. If you don't go to your jury
00:58:45
summons, I think you can be in contempt of court.
00:58:47
I think you're legally obligated to go.
00:58:49
So if they decide to go that route, they could, I need to
00:58:52
figure. I feel like I've missed a couple
00:58:54
I look at, you know, check in with your boss.
00:58:57
I just, I just don't believe in. Male.
00:58:59
Like I just anybody who tries to get me do anything via the mail.
00:59:03
Like I just really funny thing about the mail thing, I don't
00:59:06
know about like local courts and stuff, but like they always eat
00:59:09
your supposed to go to the website every day at like 522
00:59:11
check. If you're called the next day,
00:59:13
they also sent me a text in emailed me.
00:59:16
I never needed to go to the website.
00:59:17
Like, I think this male thing is, it's like, in an acronym,
00:59:20
right? We need to move on, email.
00:59:21
This to be the official way to reach everybody.
00:59:24
Like yeah, the mail to me is all Just Junk, you know what I mean?
00:59:28
I mean, yeah, sorry, I don't know.
00:59:30
Any people have missed it because like I feel like wedding
00:59:32
invites. I'm just like the classic if you
00:59:34
mail it to me. That is the worst way to make
00:59:37
sure it gets in front of me. Yeah, I don't know.
00:59:39
I mean, I think it's only an issue.
00:59:41
If they don't have enough jurors present, right there were enough
00:59:44
there were there were 60 people in that courtroom so they
00:59:47
clearly had enough to pull from, but I don't know.
00:59:50
Highly recommend it, I die. I say, I say, go for 25 stuff,
00:59:54
take your scooter to your local courthouse and do your Civic
00:59:59
duty. Yeah, congrats everyone.
01:00:01
Who made it to this whole episode.
01:00:03
We will we will see you all back here.
01:00:04
I'm gonna make Tom cut this one down silicon salad.
01:00:21
Goodbye goodbye. Goodbye goodbye.
01:00:23
Goodbye, goodbye. Goodbye.