Eric, Katie and Tom talk about why the Wall Street Journal's epic series about Facebook's internal failings is so powerful. And why Facebook continues to be aggressively covered by the media in a way it didn't use to be—well into the Biden presidency. That turns into a discussion about whether comparing the company to big tobacco makes sense. We also briefly debate if Peter Thiel is as powerful as the media makes him out to be. This will not be the last time we discuss Thiel on the podcast.
Get full access to Newcomer at www.newcomer.co/subscribe
00:00:05
Welcome. So people read the Facebook
00:00:23
Stories? Yes.
00:00:24
How can we not read the Facebook stories?
00:00:26
They're really good. And I'm somebody like, I mean
00:00:28
loves to ignore Facebook. Stories.
00:00:31
This is a clearly Pulitzer Contender for sure.
00:00:36
Well, what's funny about it is like the times are we?
00:00:39
I guess this is. This is how but here's the
00:00:41
reason I actually you know I think the journal is paint be
00:00:45
doing a better job on this is that the New York Times was
00:00:47
always struck stuck in this situation talking about the
00:00:50
election and and Russia with like how can we prove the
00:00:53
impact? I mean, you know there's
00:00:55
obviously something to be said about whether disinformation
00:00:58
cause certain people to not vote.
00:01:00
Whatever. But, you know, I remember when
00:01:03
it came to privacy and like a lack of interest and user
00:01:05
privacy. There was a piece of the times
00:01:07
did, in which they were literally taking reporters
00:01:10
outside, like, in New York and, like accosting.
00:01:12
Regular people showing them how, you know, their data was no
00:01:15
longer safe for, or kept private on Facebook and they're like,
00:01:17
doesn't this make you mad? Doesn't this make you mad?
00:01:20
And it was the strangest story but it was also to be very clear
00:01:22
that we're like. Okay look we've got to prove,
00:01:25
you know, real world impact of this to be a stronger Pulitzer
00:01:27
piece and so they went and did that.
00:01:29
And it was this completely forgettable story that I think
00:01:32
kind of prove that it's very tough which we were kind of
00:01:34
talking about last week with a lot of tech stories to like,
00:01:37
explain to lay people why this matters and if you can make the
00:01:42
case that that's the reason Trump won.
00:01:43
Okay? That's that's something.
00:01:44
But what the journal was very effective at with the story?
00:01:49
Do you want to give to you want to set up the stories real
00:01:51
quick? Just basically what the journal
00:01:54
has done is its amass. An enormous Trove of documents
00:01:57
and conducted scores of interviews with people who are
00:02:00
Company to show essentially that the company knows that it is
00:02:05
doing harm in the world. That is really cognizant of
00:02:09
this. That it's have full
00:02:10
conversations internally with Executives and up to and
00:02:15
including the chief executive officer, Mark Zuckerberg and
00:02:19
that despite all of this changes were not implemented swiftly and
00:02:23
their public facing message has been that these harms that they
00:02:27
speak of, so clearly in their own internal Presentations and
00:02:31
internal corporate conversations their public facing message.
00:02:33
Has been that these harms are not happening and so far, the
00:02:37
journal has laid out three and signal that we're going to see
00:02:40
more including on things like child sex trafficking.
00:02:43
But the three that they've currently laid out, include the
00:02:46
idea that Instagram, the popular photo showing up where we see a
00:02:49
lot of celebrities and a lot of people looking really great.
00:02:52
That Instagram is, has contributed to the deleterious.
00:02:57
His can't has contributed to deleterious Mental Health.
00:03:00
Flex for young women and that it's known.
00:03:02
It's something the company has known something, the company has
00:03:05
chosen not to address in order to preserve its business model.
00:03:10
It's also shown that the company was well aware of the fact that
00:03:13
changes that it made to its algorithm in the way that people
00:03:15
share news did not necessarily just increase bonds between
00:03:21
users, which was the stated goal made them angry, but it made
00:03:23
them anger made them, it created Division and that it encouraged
00:03:27
people to share and to engage out of a place of anger, hate
00:03:32
lack of trust, and all these things that we are legitimately
00:03:36
worried about in terms of its impact on democracy.
00:03:38
And then third was the original story that Jeff published which
00:03:43
I'm actually pulling up right now.
00:03:45
It was that the elite are exempt?
00:03:47
Yes, that right there is none from the rules x check process
00:03:51
and that not only are Elites exempt but that when Facebook
00:03:55
created its own board to adjudicate what to do about
00:03:58
high-profile users, It was not honest, with its own board,
00:04:03
about the fact that it had a program that whitelisted, the
00:04:08
behavior of high-profile users often times but not always bad
00:04:12
behavior, right? Yeah.
00:04:15
So, of the three pieces that have been published so far.
00:04:17
The one that I thought, really made the strongest case that
00:04:21
there is real impact to all of these problems is the one about
00:04:25
young women and Instagram because, and now I, you know,
00:04:28
you we can argue You whether or not I'm interested in you, which
00:04:31
one's the worst is an interesting framing.
00:04:34
Oh, for sure. The one today about about - you
00:04:38
know, anger on Facebook granted, it's also the one I've not read
00:04:40
the closest but I just feel like again story.
00:04:46
Well, to me, it's the oldest Story.
00:04:47
I mean, like we're now mold many years into this discussion over
00:04:52
Facebook and social media being - on our national discourse and
00:04:56
it only highlighting the most, you know, aggrieved sentiments.
00:04:59
And It being useful to Facebook's business model that
00:05:02
you know the most outspoken people are the ones who are the
00:05:05
angriest. So I just, I'd be shocked if
00:05:07
there's anything that feels strongly new to me.
00:05:11
Because, aside from the fact that there was internal teams at
00:05:14
Facebook showing that we had data to back it up.
00:05:18
It's just, we don't know to meet to me, we've been there and I
00:05:20
don't, obviously have a problem with people writing more stories
00:05:23
about it but I just I'm going to be less influenced by it than
00:05:27
something like. Well I thought the anger 12 me
00:05:29
my Ranking would be sort of how they treat the elites
00:05:33
differently. Then the anger one.
00:05:35
Then the teen girls one, I don't know.
00:05:38
To me the teen girls story and you know, I have never been a
00:05:41
teen girl. No, but it seems, it seems more
00:05:45
about sort of, You Know, The Human Condition.
00:05:48
I don't know. It's like, well magazine, it's
00:05:50
used to show pictures, you know, like different and also it's,
00:05:54
you know, different teen. Girls have different reactions
00:05:57
to Instagram. So part of the game of that.
00:06:00
Or he is basically to say, you know, oh this subsection, you
00:06:04
know, was made much worse but yeah you take any poles, some
00:06:07
people felt better because of it.
00:06:09
Some people felt worse and sort of the game of the story is to
00:06:12
just focus on the people who felt worse because of Instagram.
00:06:17
I don't think that's correct. I think that what the story
00:06:20
shows us, not just that, I don't think it's the game to show that
00:06:23
only people who felt worse, are important.
00:06:26
I think, what's important is the hypocrisy where the story A
00:06:30
shows that Facebook is cognizant of a problem.
00:06:33
Instagram knows about a problem, they discuss the problem, but in
00:06:36
public, they say, we found the Instagram.
00:06:39
Actually makes people feel better about themselves.
00:06:41
That is that would cover up. Rocks of the story.
00:06:43
Is a cover up. Yeah, not some game by reporters
00:06:46
today. Well, I was nip.
00:06:47
You late the idea that teen girls have bad self-esteem and
00:06:51
it's Instagram and I and what was so effective about it.
00:06:53
To me was they were able to pair the findings from this internal
00:06:56
study with public statements that Zuckerberg had made that
00:06:59
Adam Very had made in which they work as directly about this
00:07:02
topic in there, like, we found that.
00:07:04
It's actually good for you. I mean in real story that's been
00:07:10
an important use of all three of the stories we've seen so far
00:07:12
and I imagine it will be a very important piece of the stories
00:07:15
that you know, the subsequent stories in this year company.
00:07:19
They can't help lying, you know? And the Wall Street Journal is
00:07:21
usually I mean they are very careful here.
00:07:24
I think even in calling fit saying that Facebook lied to its
00:07:28
oversight board. They quote an of an independent
00:07:32
expert who reviewed the journals findings and have that person
00:07:36
say that Facebook lied to the board.
00:07:40
And I think, I mean that, that shows sort of the Wall Street.
00:07:42
Journal's. I think we're straight in.
00:07:45
Yeah, we're doing these things which is super interesting but
00:07:47
but I mean, it's pretty clear that the Facebook just like lies
00:07:51
and lies to everybody. And that allows these stories to
00:07:54
keep coming because I mean I didn't I think that one of the
00:08:00
What has really been happening and with vis-à-vis Facebook in
00:08:03
the media is that after an extraordinary honeymoon period
00:08:07
with the press that was like bye.
00:08:11
It was almost like the business press forgot that Facebook was a
00:08:14
business. It was extreme.
00:08:18
You saw even before the 2016 election different reporters,
00:08:25
try to show that Facebook had a less than glowing happy side.
00:08:29
You saw The Wall Street Journal do in a story called, I believe
00:08:32
was what they know which took aim, it all sorts of tech
00:08:36
companies, not just Facebook, but the idea of tracking the
00:08:38
idea of surveillance, the idea of these companies really
00:08:40
understanding us better than we understand ourselves and then
00:08:43
selling in mining our data, you saw different reporters right
00:08:47
about the fact that Mark Zuckerberg and Sheryl Sandberg?
00:08:51
Probably more Mark than Cheryl at that time.
00:08:54
How weren't being forthcoming or had made mistakes because of a
00:08:57
privacy. And that there was a sense that
00:08:59
inside of the Bunny. It was done knowingly, but that
00:09:01
publicly, the apology was always.
00:09:03
Oh my gosh, we're going to try harder, right?
00:09:06
I think my crew, we're getting to a point where because of
00:09:10
things like the election. The public is now, more on board
00:09:13
for more critical stories about Facebook.
00:09:15
The reporters are getting more access to sources in part
00:09:18
because there's more discontent with within the company and the
00:09:21
company is making bigger and bigger and bigger error.
00:09:25
So, it's sort of this perfect storm of these stories are
00:09:28
starting to hit and have more More impact even if the
00:09:32
reporters can't, for example, prove that, you know, Facebook
00:09:35
had this disastrous impact on the election with 100 certitude
00:09:39
or even through Porter, can't prove it 100% servitude.
00:09:41
That Instagram is making teen girls more likely to have an
00:09:44
eating disorder. Certainly the public, you know,
00:09:48
the public isn't a place, the reporters are in a place, the
00:09:52
cultures and in place where these conversations are just
00:09:54
more interesting to us all the recording, right?
00:09:57
But another way of saying what you're saying is that Reporters
00:10:00
are ruled by the posture of the moment towards a particular
00:10:03
entity, right? Early on their way to not.
00:10:06
Okay, let me think that because there were reporters who weren't
00:10:09
ruled by the posture of the moment who did, right, right?
00:10:12
There were investors means but they were dismissed by a lot of
00:10:15
what I think is, is interesting, is two things.
00:10:17
One, I think there were a lot of people myself included that
00:10:20
wondered and maybe thought that in a post Trump World, the need
00:10:24
to attack Facebook constantly or sorry to investigate Facebook,
00:10:28
very aggressively. Was going to subside because
00:10:32
Facebook was sort of seen by many people as the enabler of
00:10:36
the Trump presidency for a lot of reasons.
00:10:39
And, you know, here we are however, many months in a Biden
00:10:41
presidency and there is still huge stories that are coming out
00:10:45
from from the big newspapers showing that there are all kinds
00:10:47
of problems internally. So, you know, I think there were
00:10:49
a lot of people at Facebook that thought it was going to go away.
00:10:52
And clearly, it isn't well weird.
00:10:54
Contradiction of Facebook obviously, right.
00:10:56
I mean, Katie talked about this earlier that because the public
00:10:59
is now So cynical of Facebook because of the coverage in part,
00:11:03
it's much easier to motivate like critical coverage of
00:11:07
Facebook, but of course, the public critiques and Facebook
00:11:09
are totally different. Right there is the Democrats who
00:11:12
hate hate Facebook for a set of reasons and other Republicans
00:11:16
who hate Facebook's for perceived bias.
00:11:19
But then it's this sort of amalgam of contradictory
00:11:23
objections to Facebook that allow sort of these really
00:11:27
critical Facebook Stories to have much resonance.
00:11:30
I don't know. I I distinctly these stories
00:11:32
stay away from politics right with certain areas.
00:11:35
Great stories are really impactful in part because they
00:11:39
are addressing issues that no matter where you sit on the
00:11:41
political Spectrum or what part of the country you live in ya,
00:11:44
Urban or rural. You can't have not noticed how
00:11:47
toxic things are on Facebook, right?
00:11:49
Even this is an original point. But I to me, they read as
00:11:53
writing about Facebook as if it's the tobacco industry,
00:11:56
right? It's like a really internal
00:11:57
research. They did on Of.
00:12:00
Here's how they knew what they were selling you is bad.
00:12:04
Here's how when the regulator's came to them, they misled an
00:12:08
obfuscated. And and so yeah to me this is a
00:12:11
series that's really trying to frame Facebook as akin to the
00:12:16
tobacco industry. Now we can does a great job of
00:12:20
that. Yeah and that's been that's been
00:12:22
a comparison that's been going around for a couple of years.
00:12:25
Now I remember Marc benioff at some conference a couple of
00:12:28
years ago was explicit about Bout that which, you know, I
00:12:31
think there's a lot of self-serving nests on the part
00:12:33
of tech Executives to call out Facebook.
00:12:35
I mean, certainly apple is the best example of that, you know,
00:12:38
when Tim Cook was going around saying that they're stealing
00:12:41
your data and apple is the Privacy protection company,
00:12:44
right? Yeah, there's a lot of that
00:12:46
going on there. I have a tough time with the
00:12:48
tobacco comparison. I don't think it's a it.
00:12:52
I don't think it stands up to much scrutiny other than it
00:12:55
speaks to like the power of business.
00:12:56
I think there's a huge difference between an addictive
00:12:59
Product that has only deleterious health effects to
00:13:03
something like, you know, the national discourse that Facebook
00:13:06
is affecting or teen self-image. That Facebook is affecting,
00:13:10
which are so much more challenging.
00:13:12
I mean there's sociological problems are not health
00:13:14
problems. You can add are thinking real
00:13:17
science, you know, in a decade. I don't know what we could but
00:13:20
looking back I think decade that we expect technology to protect
00:13:25
us from what we could thinking of decade that this was a
00:13:27
hysteria. You know, I mean I thought there
00:13:28
was a great there is A great story that Joe Bernstein wrote
00:13:32
for. I don't remember where he was
00:13:35
orders. Yeah yeah like a buzzfeed
00:13:37
reporter. I think we took a year off and
00:13:39
did some, you know, I thought deeper anything research
00:13:41
fellowships. Yeah.
00:13:43
Yeah. And he made a really strong case
00:13:44
that like look, we just don't really know the effect that
00:13:47
anything has on on the way we think.
00:13:49
And you could argue that advertising which is, you know,
00:13:52
influential advertising, that is the base of how so much of our
00:13:56
economy Works. Maybe that's not even that
00:13:58
effective too. And so to basically say there's
00:14:02
there's the really cynical argument that the storyline that
00:14:05
Facebook is able to manipulate us as fundamentally good for
00:14:08
Facebook's business. Because it convinces advertising
00:14:10
writers, write its this all-powerful platform with which
00:14:13
to control the public. And so, as much as Facebook
00:14:17
wants to resist that when it comes to dealing with lawmakers,
00:14:21
it's sort of a reputation that it's not totally opposed, right?
00:14:26
Just like the idea of cigarettes are extremely addictive, is not
00:14:28
necessarily bad for an industry. See, that's trying to convince
00:14:30
investors that can always get customer.
00:14:33
He's right. It's a great business model.
00:14:35
Good. All right.
00:14:36
Yeah, yeah. But you know, I wonder what will
00:14:38
happen. I mean, to a certain extent
00:14:41
despite the fact that it's great reporting in the Wall Street
00:14:44
Journal and it's important to expose internal tensions over
00:14:47
things like this that some of these subjects are better
00:14:49
discussed and like academic journals and and mental health
00:14:52
journals because it's their this is going to move the public.
00:14:55
Yeah well and also I think Tom the real problem, the real place
00:14:59
where the Comparison between the tobacco industry and Facebook
00:15:01
breaks down. Is it a backhoe industry was
00:15:03
creating a product that we smoked or at least?
00:15:07
Then I smoked. But we were creating a product
00:15:09
that they could that they could stop not anymore kids, but
00:15:14
creating a product that that you we could stop production of you
00:15:18
can shut down a tobacco Factory. You don't need to harvest the
00:15:21
crop anymore. You cannot make a cigarette.
00:15:24
Facebook is creating a product that we actually create as
00:15:27
people. And so there's no way to shut
00:15:29
down. Down production on Facebook
00:15:31
because it would mean, everybody would just have to leave the
00:15:33
platform. I just spent the summer in New
00:15:36
England, if you are not in a place where for example, small
00:15:39
businesses towns Municipal Services have created their own
00:15:44
websites, they all live on Facebook, you're not going to
00:15:47
know what's going on with your kids elementary school.
00:15:49
If you live in rural, Maine, unless you're on Facebook,
00:15:51
you're not going to get not know what's going on with your fire
00:15:53
department, if you're a Massachusetts, unless you're on
00:15:55
Facebook dark. So, I mean, what what so you
00:15:58
can't shut off. The cigarette factory when it
00:16:02
comes to Facebook. Yeah.
00:16:04
And and it gets complicated and the journal story dealt with
00:16:07
this to about like, well what are the other social media
00:16:10
platforms doing and are they better for our mental health
00:16:12
than that and I know from covering snap that there is a
00:16:15
deep belief on you know, the CEO Evan Spiegel is part.
00:16:18
A lot of people there that like we did it right?
00:16:21
You know, we have moderated, the new section, we don't allow for
00:16:25
Mass amplification of false stories.
00:16:28
And then I think the journal story Also mentioned like oh
00:16:30
Tick-Tock doesn't really, you know, hurt your mental health
00:16:33
because it's more about being fun than it is about, you know.
00:16:36
It is fun. Would it take it consumes so
00:16:38
much of my time? I mean, it is and I never
00:16:41
remember anything. I believe my mental health has
00:16:45
been impaired in some, right, right.
00:16:47
I feel like I just skipped over that period of time, like I it's
00:16:50
just like I'm a racing time for my life where after it's done.
00:16:53
I'm like what did I get out of it?
00:16:56
You know what I mean? Yeah, I enjoyed it.
00:16:57
I guess while I was consuming it, To me, like the craziest
00:17:02
kind of cover-up on the part of a corporation that I can think
00:17:06
of that's happened in the last however, many decades was X on
00:17:09
knowing full, well about global warming.
00:17:12
And the fact that they had done studies showing that, you know,
00:17:16
the consumption of fossil fuels is contributing to carbon in the
00:17:19
atmosphere and raising temperatures because that was
00:17:21
something that I don't believe was widely known at all at the
00:17:24
time. I mean this was something that
00:17:26
was like years and years before Al Gore was making his political
00:17:30
Koval career off of it and, you know, like, cigarettes people
00:17:33
probably knew for a long time, maybe not that it was addictive
00:17:36
but that, you know, it wasn't good for your health.
00:17:38
And then with Facebook, there have been a lot of third-party
00:17:40
studies that have gone on for a long time.
00:17:42
Saying like, yeah, this is really fucking with young girls
00:17:45
brains. I think a clear thing on Venus,
00:17:48
on the Exxon poor women's Brains to jfy.
00:17:51
I say as a senior citizen on the Exxon point, I mean, I just
00:17:55
think an important thing to remember in these stories is
00:17:57
that the companies think about themselves way More than we do,
00:18:01
right? I mean, Facebook is obviously
00:18:03
doing this research on themselves, like they
00:18:06
professionally. The culture is just much slower
00:18:09
to sort of digest all the different problems that these
00:18:12
companies have whereas they're professionally interested as a
00:18:15
regular routine in the 90s people didn't know about
00:18:19
ExxonMobil, the culture, it was in the culture.
00:18:22
What the difference was was the no I'm not saying that people
00:18:25
didn't know about. No, I was just I was actually
00:18:26
harm said about like people not Ali knowing people don't
00:18:31
understand the difference was that they were finally nailed
00:18:35
through. Variety of things including
00:18:37
reporting including Congressional hearings, where
00:18:40
documents came to light, showing that their critics had been
00:18:43
correct. I may be Exxon like the their
00:18:45
initial studies happen in like the late 70s.
00:18:47
Yeah. They cover things up for a long
00:18:48
time, this might be a tangent but you know what?
00:18:52
September 11th. There was this whole like
00:18:55
copypasta going around around that flight where the, you know,
00:19:00
The people took it over and stopped it from being used by
00:19:03
the hijackers. What's nine point ninety?
00:19:05
Three. I know my pet like wow the tax
00:19:09
just had our 20th anniversary, the tax light with the text
00:19:12
people were posting Eric was like for was fake.
00:19:15
You know it's like created by some Christian sites.
00:19:17
Nopes fact checked in you know they say it ends in a prayer.
00:19:20
Like it's based on truth, the facts but they like made a whole
00:19:24
fake transcript. Nobody online like gives a fuck
00:19:27
about it. Probably more people read that
00:19:29
story than have ever. I read my cumulative writing
00:19:33
ever and it's just like totally made up and I don't know what's
00:19:37
my objection here. It's just that.
00:19:38
At the end of the day Facebook's capacity to distribute things is
00:19:42
what you know. If you just made up one fake
00:19:45
post and told it to one person that would have had a small
00:19:49
impact, maybe it would have been wrong or like, deceitful, but it
00:19:52
would have been small. But now every major we have all
00:19:56
these like fake just for the extinct because of Facebook.
00:20:01
I was gonna say in part because of us because Facebook allows
00:20:04
you and me to post, pretty much. We don't care about the truth.
00:20:08
People don't get it then. So until Facebook, clamps down
00:20:11
in some way, right? And our ability to post,
00:20:15
whatever we want in real time, they can take it down later but
00:20:19
a lot of damage can be done before.
00:20:20
It's taken down until that happens, it's really hard to see
00:20:23
a solution but as an aside because you guys we've talked
00:20:26
about BuzzFeed what's going on with Vice.
00:20:28
That's that's falling apart. Like what?
00:20:30
Let's go. Is it?
00:20:31
It's not happening. Yeah, no snow.
00:20:33
Does that mean we have no voice someday with?
00:20:36
No, they raised. They raised more money.
00:20:38
I can, I can give a shout-out to my, former colleague, Jessica to
00:20:41
Uncle who wrote the piece on it. They that you have this back
00:20:44
fell apart and they were able to squeeze more money out of their
00:20:47
investors. And so, it's your call.
00:20:50
Whether investors now that the pivot to videos, always worked
00:20:58
out for everyone. Yeah, it's really nice.
00:21:00
TV channel at this point. So happy I'm not writing about
00:21:03
this shit anymore. So walking a happy isn't vice
00:21:07
vice is one of those companies where if you polled reporters
00:21:11
back then everybody covering it. What it said, this is a disaster
00:21:14
that's never going to work. Oh, is he faster?
00:21:17
That's never going to work? Yeah, I mean, obviously
00:21:20
reporter. The reporter consensus is wrong.
00:21:22
Some of the time but it it is always like, is it like, what
00:21:26
are the main ones? That's interesting.
00:21:28
Sidebar, I'd be interested to hear the Ones where you think
00:21:31
the reporter can? I mean, Facebook dying in the
00:21:33
pivot to mobile Facebook? Early days?
00:21:36
We report. I mean that was before us but
00:21:39
reporters were see entire mythology that the media helps
00:21:42
support, that technology companies were were good forces
00:21:47
for good in the world rather than John we're talking about,
00:21:50
picks on, like particular valve. Okay.
00:21:52
Yeah. Alright, face.
00:21:53
Where reporters were super wrong on likes?
00:21:56
I think there were a lot of people who actually said that
00:21:58
Vice was going to be this huge force in media and then to those
00:22:01
people believe it or they're just like I'm sure but it'll but
00:22:04
Vice was almost all to Disney for a bit.
00:22:06
Dollars if somebody believed it for a hot second more more than
00:22:09
that. Yeah.
00:22:09
I mean it was they yeah it's a complicated story because they
00:22:14
like all of these media companies raise a shitload of
00:22:17
money during a time where there was a belief that these digital
00:22:21
media companies were actually tech companies and should be
00:22:24
valued on these like insanely large multiples and that it
00:22:27
wasn't going to be two companies that swallowed up all the
00:22:30
digital advertising dollars over the next couple of years.
00:22:33
And so their growth trajectory is all got completely thrown Own
00:22:36
off and I don't know like buzzfeed's probably going to go
00:22:39
public through its back so we can see what that looks like.
00:22:42
I still think a lot of these companies man were way off here,
00:22:45
like it's not like it's like the end of Candyland when you go
00:22:49
public, like, you still have to be a company.
00:22:51
Is it, is it weird for me to feel like, BuzzFeed is starting
00:22:54
to be this like, receptacle for all sorts of companies that
00:22:57
can't exit. So, they're just glomming onto
00:22:59
buzzfeed's thing. Get out through this back.
00:23:02
Like this pack is going to collapse under the weight of 4
00:23:04
million Acquisitions before The end of the year.
00:23:08
Yeah, I mean, well, this pack Market clearly is already
00:23:11
falling apart anyway. I mean, I guess we should have
00:23:14
Brian Goldberg on here some week, so he can tell us why.
00:23:17
I text, you sent me a quote defending BuzzFeed for one of my
00:23:20
newsletters that was like, I just obviously like, well,
00:23:24
whatever's good for BuzzFeed is good for me.
00:23:26
So I'm gonna say, you know, I will say about about Vice.
00:23:29
I don't watch their TV show because it's on cable, I mean,
00:23:32
that's it, unbelievably stupid, or it was, I think now, Oh, it's
00:23:36
on Hulu or something. I've heard it was pretty good,
00:23:38
but like their Tech reporting is good like they're, you know,
00:23:41
motherboard has some pretty great stories still.
00:23:44
Yeah. Yeah.
00:23:45
No. Like yeah, like Joseph Cox who
00:23:47
does their kind of security? Cybersecurity stories?
00:23:50
Is like he will put out like a great story at least a month.
00:23:55
I'm super envious of a lot of their work.
00:23:56
So I hope the business does well because it's like, it's still
00:23:59
good journalism. It's just I don't know how much
00:24:02
stock I put in that business model, right again, we never
00:24:05
talked about how I'm so happy. Not the immediate report every
00:24:09
every time we have these conversations, it makes me glad
00:24:11
her and glad you saw Adam moceri.
00:24:13
The head of Instagram, you who was quoted in the teen.
00:24:18
Girls story was at the Met Gala, right?
00:24:21
Here's one of the chairs Eric get it together.
00:24:23
He was one of the she's one of the chairs and I posted the
00:24:26
pictures. Like what's the beautiful eyes?
00:24:29
What's the Instagram version of Let them eat cake.
00:24:32
Like I can't believe he went with the timing of that story.
00:24:36
I mean that's true is probably in the works for so long, right?
00:24:40
And he agreed to be the chair. Probably a year ago.
00:24:44
Yeah. Elsa.
00:24:45
His outfit looked like he was like fucking Alice in
00:24:47
Wonderland. I mean, everybody.
00:24:50
The megaliths out. We're not very good, but You
00:24:54
know, what is it about being the head of Instagram that causes
00:24:58
these Executives to think that their Fashion Icon.
00:25:00
Well, that's sort of interesting.
00:25:01
You've actually seen a lot of people from magazines and the
00:25:05
fashion world like, Vanity, Fair and bow, go to Amazon, and apple
00:25:09
and, you know, Instagram Etc. So, there is this weird way in
00:25:15
which the fashion world has been trying to court technology in
00:25:18
part because technology, especially Instagram has really
00:25:22
taken a lot of Glossy magazine, world's clever way, not just an
00:25:27
advertising but also in trend-setting.
00:25:30
So if you look at what was happening with this year's New
00:25:33
York Fashion Week, you saw a lot of things that didn't really
00:25:36
feel like they made sense, they were, they've been on a drawing
00:25:39
board for a year and a half speaking to a cultural moment
00:25:42
that is no longer exist because life is moving so quickly.
00:25:46
And that's what we saw at New York Fashion Week.
00:25:48
Whereas people who are on Instagram posting that entire
00:25:51
time, they were setting and resetting micro trends.
00:25:54
It's for the entire last year and that moves you know,
00:25:58
commercial buying that moves merchandise.
00:26:00
So you know there's a way in which vogue's ability to tell
00:26:04
people what they're going to wear, has been greatly
00:26:06
diminished because of a company like Instagram Kevin.
00:26:09
So there isn't, so there isn't but it's real value.
00:26:12
Anna, Wintour wants Instagram there, I definitely think
00:26:15
Instagram is setting fashion far more than Vogue.
00:26:18
I would say even much more. Like what you're saying 10x?
00:26:21
I agree. 100%. I just think the laughable.
00:26:24
Thing is that the person who happens to run the corporate
00:26:27
structure that is Instagram matters no style at all in that
00:26:30
world. You know, like all you're doing
00:26:31
is channeling like a long tail of fashion.
00:26:34
People the corporate structures. I mean, if you receive your
00:26:37
medal and moved to San Francisco and we went, I think we went to
00:26:42
a bar, we met, we had to leave because I was the only reward, I
00:26:49
think Valencia area Mission, it was so hilarious, man ever seen.
00:26:54
Anything like it like he sure it's paired with slacks paired
00:26:58
with man, Bernice Ox. Well, it's back to like the
00:27:03
fashion Tech connection to. I mean this is what has been
00:27:06
going on for a couple of years in the funniest example of it.
00:27:09
To me was the I think it's still probably going to happen but the
00:27:12
Vanity Fair Tech media new establishment which was mostly
00:27:20
old. Entertainment Executives and
00:27:23
their six people, but one year, they had Kevin Systrom.
00:27:25
Who was then the still the CEO of Instagram on stage with.
00:27:30
I think interviewed by maybe on a winter or something like that.
00:27:33
Yeah, info and Lena Dunham. And yeah, and I was seeing like
00:27:41
Kevin up on stage, talking about Paris, fashion week or some shit
00:27:44
like that dress, like he was in sprockets or something.
00:27:47
And it was like, this is something about this job.
00:27:51
Yeah, something about this job, like warps the brains of tech
00:27:55
Executives to think that they're, like, fashion forward
00:27:58
and just just wealth. Fucking like, yeah, I guess
00:28:00
that's who they're all like. Carl logging.
00:28:03
And like, three weeks earlier. They were.
00:28:04
Yeah, they were probably hanging out on zux, like, you know,
00:28:06
Kawaii compound like wearing, you know, sandals and socks and
00:28:11
whatever thoughts are actually kind of in right now.
00:28:13
Tom are they? But that is why they get
00:28:16
invited, but they but coming back to it, Eric was saying
00:28:20
about how the irony of having atomos Airy at the Met Gala as
00:28:24
this devastating story is coming out about his company's, you
00:28:29
know, impact on young, women was certainly not lost on a lot of
00:28:32
people on social media. Also, what I found, fascinating
00:28:35
about that story with it. Most Terry gave on the record
00:28:39
quotes and the here they gave up all the stories they've given on
00:28:43
the earth. We all know the executives do
00:28:45
not do that, unless they think they must and that's another
00:28:49
great indication. The Wall Street Journal had the
00:28:52
goods, because there is one story, he would have gone on the
00:28:56
record if he did not. I would love to know like Just
00:29:02
the, who the LIE, obviously, who you want to know who's leaking,
00:29:05
but like a company like Facebook, I mean, Katie maybe is
00:29:09
closer to it than I am. But, I mean, they have lots of
00:29:13
like X sort of democrat Obama, Thai people running around in
00:29:17
high level like policy, comms job.
00:29:20
I just have to imagine like execs or, you know, execs are
00:29:24
flipping on them, both in policy and columns, and Leadership some
00:29:28
of the people giving quotes are like.
00:29:29
I mean, it's just like, at what point Point the company, it
00:29:33
would be so hard to have a coherent sort of corporate
00:29:36
response in an organization like Facebook, where I imagine people
00:29:40
and gay people are engaging directly with those reporters
00:29:44
because they have and also it's a company that tells you, you go
00:29:47
there to have like these principles.
00:29:49
So then everybody feels entitled to sort of, you know, defend
00:29:53
themselves to the reporters. I mean, it must be a mess to
00:29:57
deal with PR on that story. I cannot imagine it's sort of a
00:30:01
Lockdown situation. Where you have like this one
00:30:04
calms person going to the Wall Street Journal and it's totally
00:30:07
controlled. It must be pretty, pretty
00:30:10
chaotic would be my my guess. I don't know if you guys have
00:30:13
thoughts on that. I just wonder at this point, how
00:30:17
much, Facebook cares? I mean, it's obviously care
00:30:20
enough, well, because Zach has complete control over the board
00:30:24
and everything the company dry, so he can never be removed.
00:30:26
So, how much do you like when you're can never get new right?
00:30:30
This isn't new for them. I mean, when the New York Times
00:30:32
and others did their Spate of stories, a couple years ago and
00:30:35
they hauled Zuck in front of Congress multiple times and now
00:30:39
Facebook is worth over a trillion dollars and it's very
00:30:43
unclear, you know regulatory Why's what people are going.
00:30:46
I know there are antitrust suits and those are messy and I
00:30:49
definitely defer to Katie. I'm like, you know, the
00:30:51
trajectory that those will go on, but, like, at some point
00:30:53
like Facebook, you know, they don't want to be seen as the
00:30:56
villain in public, but if they can do that, and also compensate
00:30:59
people, you know, their Executives and their employees
00:31:02
and the stock keeps going up for the time being.
00:31:04
Maybe they're just happy to like take the punches on Twitter.
00:31:06
Well, I think enough people like I don't one way to read these
00:31:10
stories to me, is that There are a lot of people at Facebook,
00:31:14
creating reports because they don't like Facebook, they want
00:31:17
it to change. They think they should reform,
00:31:18
right? Then that doesn't happen.
00:31:19
Why doesn't happen? Because Mark Zuckerberg is in
00:31:22
charge. He's a dictator in Chief with
00:31:24
Sheryl Sandberg, his loyal lieutenant.
00:31:26
And so even if you are a super senior, the company, you're not
00:31:29
going to succeed in getting them to change.
00:31:31
So then that creates a whole apparatus of people, they're
00:31:33
creating the reports somehow, those reports are getting leaked
00:31:36
to the Wall Street Journal. There's like, you could see a
00:31:40
lot of Facebook, be no line. And with these Wall Street
00:31:44
Journal stories because they want change at the top, right?
00:31:48
So, to save, Facebook thinks is sort of incoherent.
00:31:52
I think you would say there's the Mark Zuckerberg view where
00:31:56
he's sort of stopping all these lower level decisions and then
00:31:59
there are the sort of Executives that are loyal to him.
00:32:02
And then there are these sort of more sort of professional
00:32:04
Executives. In the more those executives are
00:32:06
tied in to the actual Rank and file.
00:32:08
They're going to be responsive obviously to the findings that
00:32:11
those rank-and-file are. Seen and are getting ignored.
00:32:14
So I would love to know, I mean obviously this is a reportable
00:32:20
thing that would be a frustrating to the reporters.
00:32:22
Probably. But just yeah, how much of how
00:32:25
much of Facebook itself is on board with?
00:32:28
Yeah, I don't know. The company is also trying to
00:32:30
figure that out as well. I mean worship we should we
00:32:35
could put a pin in this one and have Casey Newton on some time
00:32:38
who obviously would know more directly than it's so hard on
00:32:42
poverty. Like easier for me to say this
00:32:44
because I don't have her Facebook so I can just
00:32:46
extrapolate from other stories, but I feel like once once you're
00:32:53
on the be, the one thing you can't really talk about is the
00:32:56
level of like how much are people sort of defecting even
00:32:59
when they're sort of principal actors for the company?
00:33:04
I think there's zero upside and any of us ever talking about our
00:33:07
sources. But every new tapes including
00:33:11
that we shouldn't You don't you think?
00:33:14
I'm out of school here as a reporter to say it was.
00:33:16
No, I'm just saying that I've told my sources.
00:33:18
I won't tell people who they are and so I keep that promise.
00:33:21
I don't know, that's our premium episodes.
00:33:26
We can talk more explicitly about who we talk, but I just, I
00:33:29
mean these stories reflect an organization that is not happy
00:33:32
tribal that you'll true. I mean, if the organization was
00:33:35
happy, Banks, wouldn't really come in organizations really
00:33:38
naughty and they were no leaks that I'm right, this, by the
00:33:41
way, is like the fundamental thing that At people in Tech,
00:33:43
don't understand about reporting and it happens every fucking
00:33:46
time when they're just like, why to reporters keep writing
00:33:49
negative stories about these companies.
00:33:50
And it's like because the employees that your company's
00:33:53
don't like the way things are going.
00:33:54
And I don't like working there. They're mad at you and they're
00:33:56
talking to us. Yes.
00:33:57
It's like you were blaming the wrong person.
00:33:59
Exactly. Can you can complain on the
00:34:00
margins about like angles and stuff?
00:34:02
But like, you know, like the beatings will continue so long
00:34:05
as morale, doesn't mean, you wouldn't want to look inside.
00:34:08
Mmm. Yeah.
00:34:09
But not in the way that you want to which is just to ruin.
00:34:11
We actually And actually, they don't want to look inside,
00:34:15
speaking of tech spending. By the way, we're coming here,
00:34:18
the day after the California recall, resoundingly defeated by
00:34:24
people, actually deciding to vote.
00:34:26
And I got to say, for the certain Tech Executives that
00:34:29
spent money on the voting to recall, I wouldn't call that
00:34:32
good Roi. Doug Leone, great investment,
00:34:36
David Sachs. Well done.
00:34:38
Peter teal, what did Peter tell us?
00:34:41
I don't remember. I think so, yeah.
00:34:43
I'm not going to weigh out on this.
00:34:44
You guys stop it. You can your business reporter?
00:34:49
You can talk about Roi. Like it's like, I just it's not
00:34:53
it's because I did not, I am not as I didn't do it.
00:34:59
I didn't study the California recall as Tom did or you did.
00:35:03
And so I would just be I don't like to speak about things.
00:35:05
I know nothing about. Yeah, well we could come back to
00:35:09
this one another time but I would say the every no vote Next
00:35:13
Shopkins book, the contrary and I'm a fifth of the way through
00:35:16
its good and good. It really frames so far.
00:35:19
The whole Peter teal world is like a sort of political Club,
00:35:23
more than anything that a big you know, David Sachs Keith her
00:35:26
boys. Like the thing they shared was
00:35:29
conservative libertarian incoherent in some cases
00:35:33
politics and so it's super interesting light of the recall
00:35:37
effort, but I think everybody we should finish reading.
00:35:41
You guys should get the book I should fit.
00:35:42
Yeah. Yeah, before we talk, I'm
00:35:43
excited to read it. I'm I wonder though with Peter
00:35:47
teal, does the media over rate, how important he is?
00:35:51
He's on the board of Facebook. I mean he's I mean, he was the
00:35:55
president's around people just want to say.
00:35:58
I mean, it's like, do we do well, here does the media over
00:36:01
rate. How important the president
00:36:02
United States is like, I guess, maybe, but like Peters.
00:36:05
That's a lie. That's a lie.
00:36:13
It was like the biggest most important donor to President
00:36:17
Trump, right? I mean, he will go do, I do
00:36:20
things like Robert Mercer lung terms of his political influence
00:36:24
and in terms of his business influence, I mean he's on the
00:36:28
board of one of the scariest come.
00:36:29
He's a billionaire. All these guys have these.
00:36:31
All these guys have power in ways that I never fully
00:36:33
understand but I just don't want to go too far in this because
00:36:37
I'm looking forward to reading my exes, but Zuckerberg is more
00:36:39
important than Peter teal. Is that the question?
00:36:41
Certainly, the Pure or the coke Brothers.
00:36:43
Or the living one? Yeah.
00:36:47
What? Living one?
00:36:49
He didn't go back to the tape on that replay.
00:36:56
Yeah. I just I mean, I don't know that
00:36:58
ranking extremely wealthy, people who are able to call,
00:37:01
almost anybody at the world, when it whoever they want,
00:37:03
whenever they want is really a useful exercise, but like I'll
00:37:07
do it. I guess.
00:37:08
No, I would agree is to Proclaim his that if you control attack
00:37:11
platform, Like Facebook or Twitter, you're more powerful
00:37:15
than people who just have money. I don't know if Tom is I would
00:37:19
buy on to that. Here's my question.
00:37:20
Here's my contrarian question. It's like Duggar does the media
00:37:25
over rate his particular does he Loom very large in the mind of a
00:37:29
lot of reporters because of his role in The Gawker suit that you
00:37:34
know very specifically cast him as but he succeed at what one of
00:37:37
the biggest villains. So much of politics is all T
00:37:40
fucking killed a new site like that's right.
00:37:42
No one's done. Done that before and and you
00:37:45
know where he funded a suit that that effectively did that.
00:37:47
And I shall I just wonder, I mean freedom of the press.
00:37:51
Yeah. I mean that's real impact.
00:37:53
Yeah and I just wanted had that not happened but he still was a
00:37:56
guy that gave money to Trump in was you know sitting at the
00:37:59
right hand and all that other stuff if he would matter as much
00:38:02
but Gawker is how we just covered in.
00:38:04
Just give us an example of why he matters more than other
00:38:07
investors. You literally just gave us an
00:38:09
example of why he matters more than other investors.
00:38:11
He was a mistake. The reason he killed Gawker was,
00:38:14
he was getting covered a ton of already so be even even aside
00:38:18
from the reason he was right. Even aside from the reason he
00:38:20
killed it, the fact that by your own admission, he did something
00:38:24
no other really investors ever done.
00:38:26
That had run short of an impact on the press and an impact and
00:38:29
we think of like how money can stifle freedom of the press that
00:38:34
doesn't that indicate that he is possibly more important than
00:38:37
other investors? I'm not saying things like some
00:38:39
Puppet Master. I'm saying the time like Tom's
00:38:42
the one dressed like he's I know and understand and that, you
00:38:51
know, basically says that there were a lot of crazy, kooky sort
00:38:54
of anti-climate change, level type people that teal suggested
00:38:59
Trumbo Point. And even you know, the Trump
00:39:03
people were Steve band and we're like, these are two kooky for us
00:39:08
and teal didn't get a lot of those but I mean, some of, you
00:39:11
know, the CTO was a teal I think there were some people.
00:39:14
There are teal guys over the administration but it sure.
00:39:17
Could he pick the Secretary of Defense?
00:39:19
It didn't seem like it. So, yeah, I mean, I don't, but I
00:39:22
don't really believe in Puppet Masters, but in terms of
00:39:25
billionaires that are super powerful, I think he's much more
00:39:28
powerful than his actual wealth, or there are much richer people,
00:39:31
there are less less powerful. I have very realistic.
00:39:36
I got a, I have to I have to make this phone call.
00:39:40
It's because I need this information.
00:39:42
And so I gotta go unlike Eric. I'm I'm not gonna tell you who
00:39:48
my sources are. I didn't tell him Eric's, not
00:39:53
going to pressure me into revealing how I get information
00:39:57
joking. No, I do have to go because I
00:40:00
have to make this call and great.
00:40:02
So I hope that you guys are good of America, you know?
00:40:04
I hope you come up with a definitive ranking of which Tech
00:40:09
billionaires are the most influential vis-à-vis, how much
00:40:12
they're By the press and please shoot that over to me because
00:40:16
I'm curious to see it. It's a changing.
00:40:18
It will be exchanging. Yeah, it'll be like a power
00:40:20
ranking list. Yeah.
00:40:21
Get. Can we start doing a power
00:40:23
ranking list on the pool? Yeah, well, we could run in my
00:40:26
work, my friends desperately want me to do more power
00:40:28
rankings, just for clickability. I've been opposed to truly sort
00:40:34
of capricious judgments just because I have a following, but
00:40:38
I do think it'd be good. People want to consume list of
00:40:41
who's in, who's out? Shouts.
00:40:43
Oh yeah, absolutely. Well isn't that all that she you
00:40:46
know I'm actually getting slacked out by co-workers to I
00:40:49
guess I do my God. Yeah.
00:41:00
Eric you have to do the same job.
00:41:01
We have to do is just you have no boxes, all right?
00:41:04
Exactly. So I can procrastinate then do
00:41:06
it at two in the morning and run a very good sort of mental
00:41:09
health experience, right? You're also offer Two weeks to.
00:41:13
So you better you better burn that oil for the next couple
00:41:16
days while Katie and I have to figure out what to talk about.
00:41:19
Yeah. All right we can we can call it
00:41:21
though. Okay bye.
00:41:23
Bye Katie. So I guess once again We've
00:41:26
Ended episode with Katie having to do a real job and now she
00:41:29
disappear last episode. Yes, yes, she disappeared
00:41:33
because there wouldn't even last episode is coming into her movie
00:41:35
theater and she had to like, talk them down and then when she
00:41:38
came back on the zoom called, we were already gone.
00:41:40
But we ended the last episode without her and I think that's
00:41:43
gonna have to be like a weekly thing.
00:41:44
Now she's only the, he's a special guests.
00:41:48
It's her, it's her duties. Maybe don't include your Napa.
00:41:52
So yeah, she's a pain. So, work on Sally, goodbye.
00:42:06
Goodbye. Goodbye.
00:42:08
Goodbye. Goodbye, goodbye.
00:42:10
Goodbye. think that's gonna have to be like a weekly thing.
00:41:44
Now she's only the, he's a special guests.
00:41:48
It's her, it's her duties. Maybe don't include your Napa.
00:41:52
So yeah, she's a pain. So, work on Sally, goodbye.
00:42:06
Goodbye. Goodbye.
00:42:08
Goodbye. Goodbye, goodbye.
00:42:10
Goodbye.