The Fictionalized Viral Uber Driver
Newcomer PodApril 05, 202201:08:4362.92 MB

The Fictionalized Viral Uber Driver

On the Dead Cat podcast, Tom Dotan, Katie Benner, and I talk about Apple’s WeCrashed, Hulu’s The Dropout, and SHOWTIME’s Super Pumped — the TV shows about Adam Neumann, Elizabeth Holmes, and Travis Kalanick respectively. (Spoilers: If you believe that real events that have already transpired can be spoiled.)

This morning, I emailed Fawzi Kamel, the Uber driver whose confrontation with then-Uber CEO Travis Kalanick went viral when I published it at Bloomberg.

The video captures Kalanick — at the peak of the scrutiny around his leadership — telling Kamel, “Some people don’t like to take responsibility for their own s**t. They blame everything in their life on somebody else. Good luck!”

I wanted to catch up with Kamel to see if he had seen himself on TV.

He’s a character in the SHOWTIME television series Super Pumped, played by actor Mousa Hussein Kraish.

Kamel called me back: He hadn’t watched the show.

The fictional version of Kamel gets rid of his car, consults with a lawyer and his wife, and then posts the video online.

The real world Fawzi Kamel was far bolder.

Kamel was still driving for Uber when he sent me an email with the subject line “About uber.” He wrote me from his iPhone on Feb. 22, 2017:

I started driving for uber in 2011So I know the company from the beginning and I can introduce you to drivers who started in 2010 under Ryan grave . We all know the dirty uber thief .Last Sunday , I picked up Travis and I told him that non of the drivers trust him anymore . Cause he cheated the drivers who promoted his idea at the beginning and made him who he is todayHe got mad and slammed my car doorThe point I'm trying to make is the answer of uber CEO after I told him that I Bankrupt because of him . Didn't seem as an answer of a CEOAnyway , I have all this in video , be my guest to see itI just want it to go viral , cause the CEO is an a*****e arrogant peace a shitThank youFawzi kamel

I replied 13 minutes later with only four words: “Send me the video!”

After some emails back and forth, Kamel sent me the video under the condition that I couldn’t publish it without his permission. (Unlike on TV, he hadn’t consulted a lawyer and wasn’t married.)

I watched it and knew that the video would captivate a world obsessed with Uber’s brash CEO.

I spent the next couple of days trying to convince Kamel to let me publish the video at Bloomberg, where I was covering the Uber beat.

Kamel was a hard man to reach — in large part because he was still driving for Uber to earn a living.

Eventually, Kamel gave me the greenlight — even though Bloomberg couldn’t pay him for the video.

It went viral almost immediately.

Kamel told me over the phone this morning that I was the only reporter who had replied to his message about the video.

I learned this morning that the dashcam video that he’d recorded wasn’t actually stored on his camera. So he’d had to go pay a company $60 for access to the video after a friend of his convinced him that it was worth the trouble.

Ultimately, Kalanick and Kamel sat down, and Kalanick paid him $200,000 as a make-good. The money helped Kamel pay off some of his debts.

Kamel is clear about one thing: He’s not driving for Uber anymore. “I will never drive again,” he says.

I offered to share my SHOWTIME password with him, but he didn’t seem interested.

Instead, I sent Kamel a cell phone video of the Super Pumped episode, so Kamel could at least watch a recording of another man acting out a recording of himself.

These days, Kamel says he’s spending his time buying and selling stocks on Robinhood. He doesn’t hold that company in particularly high regard.

Kamel has actually softened his tone on Kalanick.

“Travis is actually someone — if you confront him — he’s a very good guy to talk to,” Kamel says.

“Firing Travis was a big mistake because if they didn’t fire him, Uber could be way more today,” Kamel says. “That’s all I know.”



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What do you think? When I say, workspace, cubicles,

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ugly Furniture, bad fluorescent, lighting, death except lie.

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I'm Travis kalanick, and I will never back down from a fight.

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And if no one wants to believe in me, I'll make them believe by

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being undeniable, you know, you're on your way up.

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And they slap a Target on your back, we're deceiving the most

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powerful tech company in the world.

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We are disruptors because that is what Revolution requires,

00:00:45
what if you can test your blood in your own home and what if it

00:00:48
wasn't a whole file, but just you drop.

00:00:53
I'm going to drop out of Stanford, this machine going to

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change the world. Welcome.

00:01:10
Hey, everybody. It's dead cat Tom here, joined

00:01:13
by Katie and Eric, got a very special episode for you guys

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today, we've been waiting to do this for a long time, but we are

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in the midst of the golden age, of television shows about tech

00:01:24
companies. It's a bubble upon a bubble,

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upon a bubble, has has resulted in and what we are going to talk

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about today. Because first, we have the

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Belove books about tech company implosions.

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And then we had the bubble of podcasts about books about tech

00:01:39
company, implosions. And then we have the streaming

00:01:42
shows about the podcast that are sometimes based on the books

00:01:45
about tech company. Implosions, it's Turtles all the

00:01:47
way down here. But who better to talk about

00:01:49
this than people who have written about?

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These companies have watched all the fucking shows I've been

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sitting in my room, it's a bright sunny day, the birds are

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chirping. I had the blinds pulled down and

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I'm just like bitch. You watching we crashed and the

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drop out that there are no show. Yes.

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So a lot of TV has been consumed for my job recently.

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Yeah over a short period of time.

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Yeah I was watching last night then I got too tired.

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I went to bed and then I woke up and watch two more sitting in

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bed and then I watched another, I finished the episode that I

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watched on TV in the morning. So I am, I'm saturated in this

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shit but so we've got three shows here, right?

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We have super pumped, which is The Uber show which we've talked

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about before on dead cat, when Mike came on, we've got we

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crashed, which is the we work show.

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And we've got the Dropout, which is the Thera no-show.

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Are they text shows? Or are they fraud shows right?

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I haven't seen inventing Anna but I do think there's an

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argument there like the Soul at least of like the Dropout and we

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crashed is more about like fraudsters, they're almost like

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following the fire Festival Spirit the hucksters.

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Spirit and seem to sort of jump to my take seem like good post

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trumpian dealing with that whole era stories about, like,

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fraudsters in a way that they're more about that to me than the

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tech industry and to some degree.

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The Uber show to me struggles because it's too much about

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tech. Yeah, I agree like these shows

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are at their best when they Embrace not just like the

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characters at the center of it. But when they are about the

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fraud, basically, the deception, Is that something everyone can

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relate to? You know, like discussing, you

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know, roadshows for funding rounds, is not interesting to

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most people. It's barely interesting to us

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but when it's about, you know, deception and it's why I think,

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you know, their nose remains absent of these shows but their

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nose Remains the best story of all of them because it's the

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clearest con, right? It's like this was someone who

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misled investors. Claim that a product did things

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that I couldn't do and directly affected people's lives.

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I know we need to talk about B-but when we were writing those

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stories seven years or whatever it is now yeah, weren't to some

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extent we writing about fraud, I mean that was the narrative

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tension of those reported stories as well.

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Some degree it was like we've been giving you stories about

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funding rounds. We've been giving you stories

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about pretty dry Silicon Valley jargon.

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But here's a story that we're putting on the front page

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because it's about fraud, right? Totally.

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Yeah. And the fact, yeah, and the fact

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that it got to the front page of like, the New York Times, was

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because it had a A larger repeal.

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I mean, theranos the times covered the trial, you know,

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minute by minute though, we should say at the outset here,

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Adam Newman there's no crew like there's criminality, you know,

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Elizabeth Holmes has been convicted of something, right?

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It was clear concept, Travis kalanick and Adam Newman just

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were pushed out of their jobs. They in some in Newman's case

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got a lot of money for leaving his job, you know they haven't

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been charged with anything so fraud is maybe a Dangerous word

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to use there tied up in hype and you know, whatever.

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But we should be careful. I mean there is a truth that

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Elizabeth Holmes sort of has really done something of a

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different type or sort that I think you like it.

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Yeah when we were writing when we were reporting the stories

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part of the thing that was being explored is what is the fine

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line, if to the extent that it is fine between Behavior, that's

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going to get in trouble with the law and Behavior.

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That is going, that is somehow immoral or wrong.

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And both of those questions are very human stories, which is why

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they were able to have such broad broad interest, right?

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And they also I think you know beyond just the fact that these

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were all venture capital funded companies, well, arguable with

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their nose but you know Tech story is the thing that ties

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them all together is that these were, you know, people at the

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center of it, who sort of let things spiral out of control.

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What one way or another right? It's like it's very American

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story. It's like every Coen Brothers

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movie, it's like 11 deception, One Lie.

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One thing kind of escapes their grasp and then suddenly it all

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sort of tumbles into chaos. It's Icarus.

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I want to start with. We work our we crashed because

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it was the one that I initially when I was texting you guys had

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said that it was my least favorite of the three.

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And really, I don't, I'd only seen half of it.

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I've now seen more of the show. I think it may be my favorite is

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my favorite by far. I think it would be my favorite

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of the three and I was not expecting that.

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I watch The Uber one first. Then I saw that their nose when

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I was like, oh, this is way better than the Uber one.

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And now I love the Thera no show.

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There are no show is good, she's Amanda see fret.

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House is really good. I mean, she feels like Elizabeth

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Holmes, almost more than any I She's the she's very good at

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authentic but but honestly, Anne Hathaway is just so compelling

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as Rebecca Newman that I feel like that make their love.

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I was literally in tears. Honestly, in the first episode

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about it because like their love stories.

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So good, like these tow tragically Oh I thought you

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meant laughing. I mean no money but I do think

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the right, like, just like the idea that their love is so

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strong that they can sort of trick the world.

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Like It's like, we love each other so much that you're gonna

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like, tell any we can bend the Universe.

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I feel like is a very powerful, like I did, let's get like a

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house of cards Vibe, right? That was the.

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That was like the engine of. That's true.

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It was drama. Yeah.

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Right. If they clearly centered, it all

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around their love story. But just like, it's a quick

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recap to any of our listeners who have not followed the, we

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work story, which I will admit of the three as it was playing

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at. We work is the one that I

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followed the lead. It was when I was at least

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interested in ironically given the least.

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I think attention of the three private problem, Adam Newman and

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the meeting was so bizarre. Oh, I want to get a buzz with

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her weight. Was it during deep voice or pre

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deep? It was post the whole Scandal.

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It was like she was still like she was running out of the

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courtroom. She's like, I gotta hot bocce

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ball date. It was somebody's like myrcella

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party in San Francisco and you know, I was a terrible reporter.

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It was just sort of like it's a birthday party.

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I don't want to ruin her like we're just gonna play cool.

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You know, it's obviously everybody knew like, excuse me,

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excuse me. Is this is this your bocce ball?

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I don't want to lose the thread with we work but it was the one

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that I follow the least I have not met Adam Newman although

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ironically he's the one I'm most closely maybe even actually

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related to But it's possible. That's what I'm saying.

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Are you just say you're all members of the tribe?

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Yeah, I think it's possible. There's not that many Israelis.

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I have a lot of cousins that are Adam Newman.

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Ask. Let's put it like that.

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You were he was Adam Newman was born in Israel.

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Oh yeah. Oh, you our viewers really want

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to Terry's face. I was born in the US but my

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parents were both in Israel. My but my older brother was born

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in Israel. I have most of my family out

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there. I recognize the Adam Newman type

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distinctly, but it's the story of we work which is a co-working

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company that was started in New York.

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Work by Adam Newman and it raised, billions of dollars most

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famously by SoftBank, which pumps in I think over 10 billion

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dollars. As, you know, the whole thing

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played out and he had this very kind of codependent relationship

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with the CEO of soft magma, so Yoshi sun which obviously ended

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explosively. But the company sort of demise

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as it were was that Adam Newman and wildly inflated projections?

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They had this IPO that had a hysterical S1 at I was like,

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this is insane. Well everybody, we all love to

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talk about Community adjusted ibadah, right you right?

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Yes. And you could do, we all love

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that. It has a I mean Elliott and

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elevating. The world's Consciousness was

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one of their like core objectives Marines Barrel.

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I mean their book really did a good job of yeah.

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They had a lead on a financial because he's metric.

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Yes but anyway so the show centers on, you know, the rise

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and fall of Adam Newman by fall. We should also Add the fact that

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he is currently a billionaire, he got away with it.

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I mean, he, I mean, and release it Travis, you know, they both

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made, they succeeded in Travis's complicated.

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But anyway, so I started watching that show and and then

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I went to sleep, then I ended up saw that, it was still on the TV

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and I finished the episode. And like, it is my favorite of

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the three for two reasons. I think one, it looks the best.

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Like it has the best overall, like, cinematic look to it.

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It feels like a movie, which made it does, which may be.

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It probably should have Bend we met First episodes like a full

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hour. The others are 50 minutes.

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I mean, is like movie rice, but it has like kind of a cinematic

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scope to it. It's really like the production

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qualities are the best of the three of them.

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And Anne, Hathaway is the best actress of any of the actors in

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in the production's. She, yes, she is.

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She really knows that character. Very well, very well.

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I mean, she may have met her base keep in mind.

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The actual person was was part of all these Hollywood, sort of

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like investment. Crossovers habakkuk brought a

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lot of celebrities like 50 times in the show.

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By the way, I didn't know this about Rebecca but she also has

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kind of a low voice. I don't know what's going on

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with that. Both cheese are really bad for

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low voice to women. Yeah, it's just really put upon

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low-voiced with it. I think offensively low voice.

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Women should feel proud, but Katie.

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Do you practice your voice in the mirror often?

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Or Actually going for something a little bit higher than today's

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just. You don't want con artist low,

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right? Yeah, but we work is the, it's

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the most to me, just a pure comedy.

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Like it Embraces the fact that like at its core, Adam Newman

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and his wife are clowns. They are clowns here for our

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entertainment because ultimately I don't believe there is a moral

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to the, we work story. There were no real victims to

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it. I remember talking to Elliot

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about this and like his lying about What, you know, what is

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the lesson to be learned? Like who's the victim of we

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work? And his line was like the truth

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that, you know, the truth was the victim of the whole thing.

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And it's like, I don't know, the truth kind of already dead.

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I don't, I think we're well past I order.

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I agree with him. I also, there are a bunch of

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people who thought they were going to be very rich who are

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not and probably could have made a lot more money at other

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companies. It is a very white collar, like,

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you know, he screwed over a bunch of people.

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We thought there it's like Richards.

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Imagine a value. Yeah, right, right.

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And it looks Work is a thing. I work out of a we work.

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It's still around. I was checking up its market cap

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today, it is five billion dollar company which is not 47 billion.

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So anyway I do think like Adam Newman's huckster is Tendencies

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were good like the idea in the beginning like the idea that he

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can sell you that this space is not like a normal office, let's

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rethink what an office is. Like, let's really change the

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spirit of it. Like, let's inspire.

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People. I mean, people wanted that that

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would that it was good while it was still functioning as a

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profitable business, which it did for a period of time.

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I think that's what makes all these stories sort of compelling

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us and what gives it sort of a tragic underpinning.

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As it's always a good idea in the beginning.

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The stories would not work if the idea were just incredibly

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stupid in the beginning, like so many other Silicon Valley

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startups. But right, the idea has to be

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good though, right? Uber and we work had products

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that weren't just Oh, the intuition is good.

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Like there are lots of cases where people have intuitions

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that people have had forever and you can get people to like sort

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of want to get on board that to me, is that there are no someone

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who burn we work. They had, you know, the black

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car service were. I mean Uber still is a thriving

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business. I think it's funny.

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By the way that the we work show begins with a title card saying,

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based on actual events because it does sort of seem so

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fanciful. That, like these characters

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exist that you would wonder if they were pure Hollywood.

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Well, the show literally starts. Sort of towards the end of the

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arc with Adam Newman, having an assistant, come in and give him

00:14:37
a bong rip. Before going to a board meeting

00:14:40
where they're trying to force them out, this is the beginning.

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So I'm not really spoiling anything.

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And then we cut back to sort of the early days of Adam Newman.

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The morning bong, rip. By the way, is just an Israeli

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like ablution. That's something I do every

00:14:52
morning to wake. It's actually, I prefer that not

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be brought up in a cultural context in the show.

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He also, I believe this like Katie, Harry this sort of

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somewhat make this resonates given my, my meeting with Adam

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Newman that went so, so sideways, and so many different

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ways. I had a meeting with Adam Newman

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that went almost as hilariously terribly, as as any meeting I've

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ever had. Truly, it was in 2017.

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First of all, Adam showed up, 45 minutes, late to the meeting as

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he does on his date in the show. He got there for But the last 10

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minutes of it, which I was fine with it was really just to get

00:15:36
to know him and these things happen is totally great, but he

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came in, you know, there was not really an apology.

00:15:42
I've been sitting with his PR person at that point for a long

00:15:45
time. We really got to know one

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another, but what he, what he first did is summoned, one of a

00:15:51
rotating cast of assistants who came in, and he demanded a very

00:15:58
specific cappuccino order. With some other accoutrement, he

00:16:03
insisted on getting me some sort of coffee which I was totally.

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It was neither here nor there, I did not care.

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And then, he sort of launches into a spiel about how to best

00:16:13
to Value the company because I'd come in with a list of

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questions. Because I was, I didn't

00:16:17
understand the valuation of the company.

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I had covered commercial real estate in the past, so the

00:16:21
numbers didn't make a lot of sense.

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So he's giving me the Spiel and the assistants are coming in.

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The first one brings in regular coffee which is absolutely not

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correct. Another assistant has to come in

00:16:34
to deal with the incompetence of the first assistant.

00:16:37
There is a terrified looking person who comes in eventually

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with what looks perhaps like the correct coffee drink.

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But at this point like he's just he's very he's very

00:16:46
dissatisfied. I'll turn it that way.

00:16:47
He seems very dissatisfied and then finally somebody breaks in

00:16:52
I believe a fourth assistant at this point to say that he is

00:16:55
late and he needs to get in To his town car that's waiting for

00:16:59
him to drive him from San Francisco, down to the valley

00:17:03
which with traffic as definitely 45 minutes to meet with Google

00:17:07
that he meeting. He's running late too and then

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he looks at me very pointedly. And while he stares at me, says,

00:17:15
to assistant number for Google can wait, I'm doing something

00:17:19
far more important, right? Which is funny given what we

00:17:25
like. Liz is cannot wait.

00:17:31
They're about to. I think, give you give you money

00:17:34
and I believe that that is why you are meeting with them.

00:17:38
So you should get in your car. I mean, that looks like was that

00:17:41
the end of the meeting, the idea of an assistant at that point

00:17:43
coming in. And handing them, a bong would

00:17:45
have made complete sense. It would have been absolutely

00:17:48
perfect in keeping with every other part of the meeting.

00:17:51
Go with the right bomb was I do know.

00:17:53
This is cups of coffee on the Table because none of them were

00:17:58
right. I mean, I loved it.

00:18:00
Adam Newman. She was a perfect is not any way

00:18:02
not only oriented around all his needs, but incompetently.

00:18:08
So looks like we can't even get him the right coffee that he

00:18:12
wants. You know, I don't know.

00:18:14
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

00:18:15
I mean, that's the interesting thing as the show developed a,

00:18:18
we'll see how it goes, but it's like, is this about just pure

00:18:21
enrichment, is he just trying to develop a lifestyle or like a

00:18:25
company that can support the lifestyle that he wants to?

00:18:27
Ever does he really think that he's building a company of you

00:18:32
know substance that will last forever that is going to make

00:18:34
the world's you know Elevate the world's Consciousness or

00:18:37
something. I mean, I guess that's the

00:18:38
tension at the core of all of these companies, right?

00:18:40
Is it just like, are they creating a service that will

00:18:42
make the world a better place? Or is it just, you know, a way

00:18:45
for them to get rich with Adam? It seems mostly the latter, it

00:18:48
has to be? I mean, he's a real entrepreneur

00:18:51
and so in that way, he succeeded, I mean, you know, you

00:18:53
got the billion right from right, I haven't, my notes and I

00:18:59
I do think sort of a broad point across these three shows is that

00:19:06
Travis ends up, Travis kalanick ends up coming off the worst,

00:19:12
even though he is the best entrepreneur of the three, you

00:19:16
know what I mean? I feel like he comes off as the

00:19:19
lease redeemed in a way because he's like, he's this ruthless,

00:19:23
hyper comp competent person. And the way that the other two

00:19:28
are like, People like being dipped, like, fraudsters are

00:19:31
Charming, you know what I mean? So I think there is something to

00:19:35
say about that. We are getting sort of suckered

00:19:40
to, you know what I mean? Like, they, it's like the guy

00:19:43
who is, I mean, there's a lot of bad things about Travis and his

00:19:46
his confidence allowed him to commit perhaps Acres sins.

00:19:50
Well, no, they are nose is the biggest sin, but like allowed

00:19:53
him to sort of do a lot of things that people objected to,

00:19:56
but I do think the emotional I'm like, yeah, I'm rooting for Adam

00:20:01
Newman at the moment. I'm rooting for do for Elizabeth

00:20:04
Holmes. I'm definitely not rooting for,

00:20:08
you know, Travis in super pumped.

00:20:11
Yeah, I think what the we work show gets really, right?

00:20:14
Just again, I haven't met Adam, like, Katie has and I have

00:20:18
personal issues with Israelis being successful that particular

00:20:22
way. But like, you understand how it

00:20:25
works for him? Like he is genuinely Charming

00:20:27
the show clearly rides on that for a while.

00:20:29
When Jared Leto's performance it's pretty good.

00:20:31
As far as that goes he's actually very compelling to

00:20:33
watch he's not 65 like Adam Newman is which it's funny.

00:20:37
There were like competing projects for the we work story

00:20:41
and one of them was going to have cousin Greg from

00:20:43
succession, playing Adam Newman which like height-wise is

00:20:47
accurate. Well it seems like yeah common

00:20:49
theme that at least between super pumped and we crash is the

00:20:54
failure to cast, tall, care, L, All actors.

00:20:57
These Bill girly I mean, Mike, he gets made fun of by people

00:21:02
who read his great book, but he talks about Bill girlies height,

00:21:05
like a bazillion times in the book.

00:21:07
And, and then, you know, show that tries to really cover the

00:21:12
entire ground of the book cast Kyle, Chandler, who.

00:21:16
And they don't even try to pretend like he's taller and

00:21:19
right, right, right. And they don't, they don't

00:21:21
really it, you know, with we work in and Adam Newman.

00:21:24
But yeah, I guess, just to finish off with the show it It

00:21:29
has the most forward momentum in a way that I'm excited about,

00:21:33
like I said, watching it. Like, I really want to see where

00:21:35
this thing goes. Even though I know where it

00:21:36
goes, I am wrapped up in Anne Hathaway for sure.

00:21:42
This is a love story. It's a good love story, right.

00:21:45
Right. And they're still together.

00:21:46
So, you know, it's not like this becomes like, you know, A Star

00:21:49
is Born or something where, you know, they their relationship

00:21:52
falls apart. As you know, she is the upper

00:21:54
like you like the rising star. Like, it's a fun one.

00:21:56
Like the other two, Aren't as her father.

00:22:00
Grimm is hell. I mean who buries show?

00:22:02
We'll get to in a second. Like that thing is just like a

00:22:04
constant like, just like grind of, you know, watching these

00:22:09
people go into meetings and argue about products, and

00:22:12
deception, whatever, no Edward is just like, I'm off to - about

00:22:16
super pumped, I actually have have liked it better as it's

00:22:20
going along. It's interesting to see some,

00:22:23
you know, connected universes between the show's Benchmark was

00:22:26
an investor in, we work as well as you Or Anthony Edwards from

00:22:32
from ER plays The Benchmark partner is actually kind of

00:22:35
funny and all three of these shows.

00:22:36
There's a lot of like late 90s, early 2000s, TV actors who I

00:22:40
haven't thought about in a long time, Sayid from Lost Place,

00:22:44
Sunny, bhawani, another no-show, I didn't put that together.

00:22:47
That's right, which is a good job, which I actually think

00:22:50
that's bad casting, because so, he's well, I just because, like,

00:22:53
I think Sonny Bomani is just a straight-up slimeball, I mean

00:22:56
that's coming out in full during the trial, right?

00:22:59
Now that he was like a really. I mean that's like a real

00:23:01
slickster, but I really seems pretty.

00:23:03
I mean, if anything might take away from his character in the

00:23:05
show, is that he's pretty one-dimensional, he's just like

00:23:09
he's the sort of bad but I just like Naveen Andrews that actor

00:23:13
who plays you know, so that Iraqi military person who was

00:23:17
also stranded on the island in law.

00:23:19
So it's just like a general core of goodness to him.

00:23:21
Like he's just like there's a Humanity to him and I just don't

00:23:24
I never really saw in sunny bhawani.

00:23:26
In terms of other actors that have popped up.

00:23:29
And you know we had what Ginsburg from Mad Men.

00:23:33
Oh yeah. As Larry Page is a pretty

00:23:35
hysterical cameo in the in super pumps and then she said I should

00:23:41
have written it down. No it's not anyway but yeah

00:23:44
anyway so so that's really all I have to say about we crash it's

00:23:46
the one of the most excited to go back and watch the rest of

00:23:49
for sure. My sneaking suspicion though, is

00:23:51
it probably should have just been a movie.

00:23:53
It probably should have just been like a two-hour movie and

00:23:56
would have you have no noise in this Instinct?

00:23:58
Save you. I think that's the problem with

00:24:01
so many of these shows, not just the ones that are made about

00:24:04
Tech podcast that were based on books that were based on

00:24:07
newspaper articles. But also just that in general

00:24:11
the streaming Wars mean that we're seeing a lot of things

00:24:13
that could have been told in two hours being stretched out to

00:24:17
like an interminable 10. Yeah.

00:24:20
Yeah, it's economic like it's economically driven that they've

00:24:23
made these all serums this is such but it takes so much work

00:24:28
to convince. I'm just arguing for television

00:24:30
but like, it takes so much work to convince people to get to

00:24:33
know a new character once you have them on the hook.

00:24:36
You've done most of the job and then they want to keep watching.

00:24:38
I mean, it TV's great people look to see if you have a

00:24:40
Content, I understand why? Yeah, that's great.

00:24:42
I'm so used to do more than this character has to do a lot of

00:24:45
stuff, though, to sustain 10 episodes.

00:24:46
Not do kind of like one thing stretched out over 10 episodes.

00:24:49
The we work stories. Also, so simple.

00:24:51
You know, it's really like, I want reacts or we work story is

00:24:57
a story of one of your Ins because getting high and hang

00:25:02
out with Gwyneth Paltrow. It's already very complicated.

00:25:04
What's up? I have cousins in their 40s at

00:25:05
still live on quasi kibbutzim in Israel.

00:25:09
I know this type. So well, if by the way, if you

00:25:11
enjoyed the we work we the we crashed story.

00:25:14
And you want to know more about swindling Israelis.

00:25:17
I do recommend the tender swindler, which we can do a

00:25:20
spin-off podcast about. I have a lot to say about that

00:25:22
documentary on Netflix, but we got two more shows to get

00:25:26
through. So I think we should should move

00:25:27
on to the. What can we talk about?

00:25:29
Burp up next or sure. Yeah, sure.

00:25:32
I mean super pumped is the weirdest one for I think at

00:25:35
least for me to talk about because I really I know Mike

00:25:40
better than the people who wrote the other, the material that

00:25:44
supports the podcast that support the other shows.

00:25:48
By the way, the actor that played like Isaac was excellent

00:25:52
as my fault. Everybody's watch these shows I

00:25:59
It's a little bit weird because, okay, look when I was, I think

00:26:02
in high school, the movie Of Mice and Men came out, and I

00:26:05
loved the book and I watched the movie, and I thought to myself,

00:26:09
the problem with this movie, is that it adheres so closely to

00:26:12
the book that it almost makes it hard to be a good movie.

00:26:17
It would be like if the Godfather adhered completely

00:26:20
with complete Fidelity to the Mario, Puzo book.

00:26:22
It would not be a very good movie.

00:26:25
And so like there's there were moments in the show where I was

00:26:28
like, wow I really like this. Very explanatory part of Mike's

00:26:32
book and feel that he did, An Elegant job breaking down,

00:26:34
something complicated in a paragraph, but I don't know if

00:26:37
that's good TV. What can I actually?

00:26:39
I'm not wondering if Katie, I'm not wandering.

00:26:41
Katie, if the ending of super pumped is the same as Of Mice

00:26:44
and Men and and Doug early, kind of leans over to Travis, it

00:26:50
says, the camera pulls away, great ending.

00:26:56
I'm gonna be a terrible Millennial and Katie is going to

00:27:00
murder never met Of Mice and Men.

00:27:01
No no I rather myself but I think you're a sort of I'm going

00:27:10
to talk about Harry Potter whatever Millennial never does.

00:27:13
I bet all those goddamn you like your fucking be ready too late

00:27:17
Katie. Now you shouldn't have read

00:27:18
them. She's know without reading those

00:27:23
books and suddenly I'm like, oh my God.

00:27:25
What happens next with the owl? But continue, okay, I I love

00:27:30
inherited Potter, 7 part 1, we're like Harry and Hermione

00:27:34
are dancing and they have this nice.

00:27:35
Look, it's just one book. You talk about the movies.

00:27:37
Now, that is a moment where where the characters are

00:27:41
actually able to sort of be expressive even though it's not

00:27:44
true to the book and it makes you feel something.

00:27:47
So, I'm totally as a book loyalists, I was fine with that

00:27:51
scene because I thought it worked in the movie and so I

00:27:55
don't have a problem when they change things from The books to

00:28:00
make you feel the authentic themes of the books.

00:28:03
Like that's what you want. I'd rather you make a change so

00:28:05
you can feel the themes even if factually, it doesn't line up.

00:28:10
But which always drove me crazy. In the Harry Potters is like a

00:28:13
die hard. Was it whenever Harry was

00:28:15
killing. It was destroying the horcruxes

00:28:18
and the books Baltimore. Can't feel at all because he's

00:28:22
so disconnected from his soul. But in the movies they because

00:28:25
they want to, like, show something.

00:28:27
They have like Voldemort, like get weak.

00:28:29
And weaker every time they kill his soul.

00:28:32
So that always drove me crazy, and I feel like similarly in

00:28:35
super pumped they wanted my Travis is girlfriends, like the

00:28:39
horcruxes know they want to make Bill girly, sort of over, they

00:28:45
need to show over time, Bill girly, resisting Travis because

00:28:50
they think it makes a better show, but authentically a key.

00:28:54
Part of the book, The Uber story and everything is that girly

00:28:58
doesn't lead us. Turn on, Travis until 2017.

00:29:01
The key thing of the whole Saga is that if you don't have voting

00:29:05
control on the board, you're either all in or all out, you

00:29:08
enable these Founders until you decide enough.

00:29:11
Then we really have to kill him and get a headshot.

00:29:13
But it's not an incremental thing.

00:29:15
You got to stay close to the company work with him and then

00:29:19
when you say like, oh my God, we can't do anymore.

00:29:21
Then you go all out War. Where's the show?

00:29:23
Makes it seem like all longer Lee was like, all right, I'm not

00:29:27
annoying. I'm gonna try and stop.

00:29:29
I know it was like we're going to enable him all along the way

00:29:32
and then we're going to kill him.

00:29:34
You know? That's a trio.

00:29:36
That's like the exact. Yeah.

00:29:37
And so that's interesting because you're right.

00:29:39
They create these very strange devices to show girly struggle,

00:29:45
including the character of girlies wife who who's I don't

00:29:51
quite understand as a narrative device, though.

00:29:54
The best part of girlies wife is when he's like because they're

00:29:58
trying to To create real Stakes for this person who's already

00:30:01
worth like, you know, 500 million in there, right now,

00:30:07
right? Well, now a 100 million or 10

00:30:10
million. He's a cent, a millionaire,

00:30:12
they're trying to create steaks from these.

00:30:14
Like honey this could be the one that gets us out of this hard

00:30:16
knocks life. I know I do there are other

00:30:18
giant like open-concept kitchen and the girlies wife character

00:30:23
is like I think we're doing okay.

00:30:26
Actually look at this just honey maybe You don't need for houses,

00:30:31
maybe just the three we have will be okay.

00:30:34
Very. Yeah.

00:30:36
He, yeah. I they clearly made a decision.

00:30:38
It's are making this show was ever like, well, who's the heart

00:30:41
of the story? Oh, that's Bill girly and like,

00:30:43
listen, we love Mike and they were just trying to make him

00:30:45
into coach Taylor from Friday Night Lights, right.

00:30:47
Which is why do girly character exists?

00:30:50
A stock analyst, right? You know, you may not coach

00:30:52
Taylor, he's a smart guy. He's a, he has a Southern

00:30:55
accent. But besides, you know, like

00:30:57
yeah, like any person You can get Beyond a Southern accent,

00:31:00
realize people with Southern Accents, can be smart with like

00:31:03
Bill. Girl, he's smart, you know, like

00:31:06
he's like the kind of guy you, your eyes is what he predicted

00:31:09
that the Uber said he was looking for different ride

00:31:12
sharing companies. He was pursuing a thesis.

00:31:15
Yeah, yeah I did it starts off feel like the whole like that's

00:31:19
the thing they were it's almost feels like a couple of different

00:31:22
pre-existing successful television shows sort of pushed

00:31:25
into one. They're like we're going to take

00:31:27
a little lights. And they're going to take like a

00:31:30
little bit of billions, right? All right.

00:31:32
I just kind of put them together because he's playing the coach.

00:31:35
Yeah, that's totally right. They are trying to make him

00:31:37
play, sort of the Friday Night Lights, which is why they make

00:31:40
Bill girlies wife basically the Friday night.

00:31:43
Oh, that's interesting. Wife to yeah.

00:31:45
It's like it's just yeah it's just Connie Britton.

00:31:49
She doesn't have like, giant glasses of wine instead of that

00:31:51
she's like making salads constantly like but California

00:31:56
and in California, you eat a lot of salad, right?

00:31:58
Right. Yeah, they did get that right

00:32:00
but no and you know, they set up a similar thing with with Travis

00:32:03
and his mom which you know as we know does and fairly tragically.

00:32:06
So so you know the show is you know that something's a little

00:32:10
bit more defendable even if those scenes are also very

00:32:12
perplexing. But I was taking notes during

00:32:15
the Uber show because watching it you know, because I cover the

00:32:18
company and watching it in that sense feels like homework to me.

00:32:23
But you know like when one sense we have to get past the first

00:32:27
sorry before we get into that. Why is Quentin Tarantino doing a

00:32:30
voiceover the worst part of the show by armed.

00:32:34
There's no point. It adds nothing to it's like

00:32:36
we're gonna rip you out of any sense.

00:32:38
It when youíve actually convince you that this is the real world

00:32:41
and rip you out of that. Like yeah, I mean like I can I

00:32:45
can understand why they chose to make the Uber PR women.

00:32:50
Look like Foxy Sears catalog models to like, you know, a up

00:32:53
the sexual tension, like whatever that Stevie, but

00:32:56
Quentin Tarantino. Like yeah, why?

00:32:58
Why? Yeah, so anyway, when he was

00:33:00
texting me, like, I'm sure Jill, Hazel Baker, Baker and Rachel

00:33:04
Whetstone hate being portrayed as like, fix you mean in The

00:33:06
genome? You mean wet Baker.

00:33:08
By the way, that was just me. Feel seem like Rachel's boss.

00:33:11
Did you notice that? Like I did Wonder I get your the

00:33:18
radio has like such a great way of like speaking that they want

00:33:21
her to be sort of like the like doing.

00:33:24
I don't know. They should have just picked one

00:33:27
or some, I don't know. It's a weird.

00:33:29
It's almost too easy to like, pick on the like niggling

00:33:33
verisimilitude aspects with it because it's rampant throughout

00:33:36
and I'd almost rather it be even more fictionalize, right?

00:33:39
To make it a better story. Well we work like there's a

00:33:42
great having you, do you work or fiction?

00:33:44
We're there in, like they're in Skadden office, you know, in

00:33:47
this scene where they're trying to get rid of them.

00:33:49
But they don't like say like I feel like if it was super

00:33:51
pumped, they say Scott and Scott and Scott, he's a law firm.

00:33:53
It's like, you know, there's a reference whereas, like, it's

00:33:56
just like in the background of the we crash.

00:33:58
Oh, you know, they're in a real, you know, Silicon Valley, Law

00:34:01
Firm, but they don't like, they're not like bragging that

00:34:03
they like have a trivia question that they're sort of like,

00:34:06
inserting into the into the story.

00:34:09
Yeah, my overall take just the matically on the Uber show.

00:34:15
Super, Pumped, is that it very much feels like a show, those

00:34:17
written by a bunch of 40 year old dudes, which I think works

00:34:20
for for billions because that is sort of the milieu of, you know,

00:34:25
Wall Street, you know, hedge fund, dudes.

00:34:27
And so you can kind of ramp up the camp penis.

00:34:29
And the like my general point is that like, this is, this is the

00:34:33
most like Gen-X spilled show. I've seen in a long time.

00:34:36
I mean, the soundtrack, the soundtrack certainly, yes, you

00:34:38
like the Pixies. Is this Show sponsored by the

00:34:42
pixie? I don't know to feel girly where

00:34:43
Pixies t-shirts everywhere. If that's the Archer point.

00:34:46
And then I didn't realize that when they're when they're doing

00:34:48
though when they do the Roadshow or the home show rather than

00:34:52
they had when they have the Obesity boys, Ryman and steal

00:34:56
and play. And during that they have the

00:35:00
Clash play. They've got Pearl Jam's.

00:35:03
Autograph of the Beastie Boys lately, though.

00:35:05
I mean, that's really something. Wow, anyway, continue absolutely

00:35:09
real crazy. I mean, just yes.

00:35:11
Yeah, yeah. What Katie as the one Gen-X

00:35:14
person here, maybe you could heal.

00:35:15
More like a tune to the vibe of the show, but for me, it's just

00:35:19
like, and this kind of feels like, it feels like 40 year

00:35:21
olds. Well, yeah, Joe but this is,

00:35:24
this is one of the things I noticed about the acting that

00:35:26
makes possibly the other, the protagonist of the we work show

00:35:31
and the Thera no show better than the than the Travis

00:35:36
character is that, on the other shows, the actors feel they have

00:35:41
the freedom to actually act like full people, right?

00:35:44
Are you like them or not? They bring things to the

00:35:47
character that may or may not Elizabeth.

00:35:48
Holmes may never have had the kind of like emotional collapse

00:35:52
or freaked out that Amanda Seyfried portrays in the show

00:35:56
and she might not have done that but but on that show the

00:35:59
character Elizabeth Holmes is allowed to have like really full

00:36:01
emotional arcs and like you get the sense of a complete human

00:36:05
being. Whereas for some reason the

00:36:08
Travis character was a Joseph Gordon-Levitt he is basically

00:36:11
directed to act like the two-dimensional person of rice.

00:36:15
Paper stories, which is like bizarre.

00:36:18
Yeah, there's no real attempt to broaden out his character, at

00:36:21
all. They're also saddled with some

00:36:23
pretty bad lines. The writing you think this scrap

00:36:26
it and the acting the script? He's working with a tough.

00:36:30
Yeah, Daddy just wasn't just adhered to closely to the book

00:36:35
and I liked the book so I get it.

00:36:36
But it's like they just it's not a show.

00:36:39
Yeah, the they were so much Thurman is actually very much.

00:36:43
I really like the Arianna, like I'd watch Yeah, me either.

00:36:47
She's good. I mean they really come up.

00:36:49
I was so worried that they were going to like girlboss, er, for

00:36:52
the lack of a better term but like she is definitely more

00:36:56
Svengali, like, you know, totally flat.

00:36:59
Oh, she's cut for the items, like, for sure.

00:37:01
Yeah. She's that's great character

00:37:04
and, and has a truthiness. I think they sort of put her in

00:37:07
like, Ariana is summary. But Ariana is so known to the

00:37:12
public already. So, if you're the actor, trying

00:37:14
to get ready to play, Her. You don't have to rely on the

00:37:17
book material, really. All like, if you're, if you're

00:37:20
Joseph Gordon-Levitt and you're like, I need to figure out how

00:37:22
to play Travis. You've got the book, and you've

00:37:24
got his, like, public appearances, which are pretty

00:37:28
flat. And then you have these

00:37:29
newspaper stories, but if you're preparing to play Arianna,

00:37:32
Huffington, you have so much great shit.

00:37:34
Like, you have, all of her public appearances, and the fact

00:37:37
that she was a political pundit her her role in politics like

00:37:42
her, this is the books, even the book.

00:37:45
She's And like, she's written some random books about like an

00:37:48
opera star. I mean, she's just sort of a

00:37:50
bigger personality, right? It almost happened to my

00:37:52
terminal, just so good. She's just very good.

00:37:55
Yeah, yeah. Anderson here.

00:37:56
It is. Sort of the argument for like

00:37:58
the best actors do sort of insist on being able to act in a

00:38:03
way that. Yeah, there's such a thing.

00:38:07
I like like every Montage scene of the over serious, I basically

00:38:11
loved. I feel like the theme song of

00:38:13
the show is literally West world.

00:38:14
Has anyone else noticed? Notice that like?

00:38:16
Yeah, it's got. It's like, it's like, it's like

00:38:18
this seem like, it's probably eats.

00:38:21
It feels like it's like total. I like it.

00:38:24
Can I die? I want to talk about the dry.

00:38:27
Oh, yeah. But quickly before you do that,

00:38:28
because that's a real story. So I just want to mention a

00:38:30
couple of quick notes that I made during it, in terms of bad

00:38:33
lines that beats, get these actors had to deliver during the

00:38:36
Uber Vegas party, which I think is completely out of time wise.

00:38:40
They made it sound like that was before.

00:38:41
They had done over X, but I think they'd I don't think

00:38:44
they've Jill things from The Miami party for the Vegas party,

00:38:48
right? And I think, Rachel and Jill had

00:38:50
not joined yet by the time of the Vegas party, right?

00:38:54
I think they weren't there for the Miami party and I think a

00:38:56
lot of the controversial things happen during the Miami party

00:38:58
and they move them to the Vegas story.

00:39:01
But I think Jill Rachel magazine party, you get the feeling in

00:39:04
real life. They would not have just been at

00:39:06
the party babysitting people, right hands, right.

00:39:09
They would have been likely have minions and you can talk to

00:39:11
them. Right?

00:39:12
Deal with this bullshit. Like, but like the presses

00:39:15
There. And then there's a line that one

00:39:16
of the journalists characters has to say.

00:39:18
There's dirt out there but I brought a shovel that makes no

00:39:21
sense. Made me feel like the the

00:39:23
creators of the show actually secretly hate reporters that

00:39:26
they would make that line happen, right?

00:39:28
Yeah. Which I mean I'm down with but

00:39:30
you know I don't know if the show is going to go in that

00:39:31
direction. There's a line, you know, you're

00:39:36
going to be like Silent Bob but she's as trap.

00:39:38
Chatty is Tracy flick. I don't know what the fuck that

00:39:41
supposed to mean, that was like deep 90s referencing that was

00:39:44
like, if you Didn't know from the telling you about the genic

00:39:47
show. Well, you get those references,

00:39:49
right? Right.

00:39:50
Yes, I do get the reference and I'm just saying it.

00:39:52
I'm like, yeah. Tom certainly understand if Tom

00:39:55
doesn't get the reverence, like, I don't know how they could even

00:39:57
put that on there. It's just the bass line.

00:40:00
Also, this idea that like Bill girly is anti buying lifts at

00:40:03
first, made zero sense to me. And then, in the, when they're

00:40:07
raising money from Google at some point girly, a saddle door,

00:40:11
Kyle genocide with the line doesn't don't be evil ring a

00:40:13
bell. It's a pretty lame thing for

00:40:16
Bill girly to have to say. And that my last thing is the

00:40:20
last two things. I don't know what research, they

00:40:23
did on David Drummond, but they didn't.

00:40:26
They basically like maiden, like shaft with, like the actual

00:40:33
David Drummond this, like it's kind of a, you know, kind of a

00:40:37
dorky guy who had like a, he's a lawyer, he's a lawyer.

00:40:39
He had like a very bizarre scandal at Uber in which he had

00:40:44
a relationship. With one of his, you know,

00:40:46
reports that I mean it, Google it Google.

00:40:49
Yeah, yeah. That it's just, I don't know.

00:40:51
I just have to let the actors who were playing secondary

00:40:56
characters. Bring like a lot to the

00:40:58
character I guess like a lot of something but then that people

00:41:02
playing the main characters are not allowed to do too much.

00:41:07
Yeah, it is, I don't know. I'm no director so what right?

00:41:11
Do I know at the very least make it a good show which I don't

00:41:14
know if they It's within that. And then the last thing, here is

00:41:17
like the Gabby character. They make it sound.

00:41:21
Like she was like playing at farmer's markets and stuff and

00:41:24
just sort of like buscan, it in order to make a living.

00:41:26
I mean, guy who was playing in pretty random place, she was

00:41:29
playing, she was a busker, she thought it was a busker, but she

00:41:32
was also playing like it, you know, high in.

00:41:34
She was basically booked as the violin player at like all she

00:41:36
played at the informations launch party.

00:41:39
Yeah, which I can't believe is where she met Travis, isn't it?

00:41:43
No, he wasn't there. Wasn't you know she met Travis I

00:41:46
think through shervin but we're going to chervin park, apply

00:41:51
this secret about that. Well, she met Sherman first,

00:41:55
I'll just I really sure if it is a name that has been exercised

00:41:57
because nobody wants to get sued, like he's not even

00:42:00
mentioned in the show. Like he's a composite character,

00:42:03
it seems to me. Anyway, it gets it gets your

00:42:06
thing about how you feel in the show but no, no, it's a good

00:42:10
story. Well, Yeah, I mean so basically,

00:42:14
in the most recent, they're still releasing the episodes of

00:42:17
super pumped. They they have sort of a dueling

00:42:21
narrative. They have Susan Fowler, you

00:42:24
know, preparing to write her blog post and then they have fo

00:42:27
Z Kamel who's the driver who released his video to the world

00:42:34
and They basically, you know, you know, this, this is one of

00:42:41
my big scoop so I, you know, take it very personally but

00:42:44
basically they have fauzi like go talk to a lawyer before he's

00:42:52
releasing this video. And then he and his wife posted

00:42:57
to YouTube in the show and he's like, quit his job and they're

00:43:01
like, ready to launch the video. And I'm the Real story I think

00:43:06
is a better story than this so in the real world first of all

00:43:10
fo Z emails, me like a pretty unhinged email.

00:43:14
This is At 10:55 on February. Well, I guess it was San

00:43:18
Francisco, so I must have been 755 February, 22nd, 2017.

00:43:23
I get an email subject line about boober.

00:43:28
The name of the account, is West Coast Limousine.

00:43:31
He says, I started driving for Uber and 2011.

00:43:34
So I know the company from the beginning and I can introduce

00:43:36
you to drivers who started in 2010, under Ryan Graves, we all

00:43:40
know the dirty, Uber Thief, last Sunday, I picked up Travis, and

00:43:44
I told him, That non none of the drivers trust him anymore,

00:43:48
because he cheated the drivers who promoted his idea at the

00:43:51
beginning and made him who he is.

00:43:52
Today, he got mad and slam my car door.

00:43:56
The point I'm trying to make is the answer of uber CEO after I

00:44:00
told him that I bank that I am bankrupt because of him didn't

00:44:03
seem as an answer of a CEO. Sorry, I'm having to there's a

00:44:07
little bit of a grammatical problems in the email.

00:44:10
I'm trying to fix myself. Anyway, I have all this in video

00:44:15
be Be my guest to see it. I just wanted to go viral

00:44:18
because the CEO is an asshole, arrogant piece of piece a shit.

00:44:23
Thank you. Fo Z Kamel, Baba.

00:44:26
And then I just reply, send me the video.

00:44:29
Give me the video and and he says, I will make it go viral

00:44:33
miss. You won't put it out there

00:44:34
without my permission and you can tell me what you'll do with

00:44:37
it, but wha and I say, OK, I agree.

00:44:40
I won't post it without your permission curious to see and

00:44:42
I'm like, you sending and then he sends it to me.

00:44:46
And you know, like it's like amazing and so then the rest of

00:44:50
the Saga, it's like over like to two or three days.

00:44:54
Maybe less I have like written the story.

00:44:58
I've like circulated the video at Bloomberg and so people are

00:45:01
getting like super excited about this video and I'm trying to

00:45:04
convince what was he to let me run the video and he is still

00:45:09
driving for Uber between leaking this video.

00:45:13
Till I take down the companies here.

00:45:15
Sorry. He's just like he's just driving

00:45:16
during the day and I'm trying to catch him when he's not driving,

00:45:19
I know but so they make it like he's like thrown in the towel on

00:45:22
the show but really this guy is still like doing the job of an

00:45:26
Uber driver while we're drivers. Living wage.

00:45:29
He maybe could have quit and found a better job, right?

00:45:32
Yeah. So then we put we poet Bloomberg

00:45:35
posts. It goes as you know, super viral

00:45:37
and I do think it played a big role in.

00:45:40
You know, people love video. I'm not taking Travis aside or

00:45:44
anything like that. Just saying it when they so

00:45:46
clearly as the show and the book frankly represents that bill

00:45:50
girly was on the side of good that he was like the person, the

00:45:54
only person pushing for a positive outcome here it negates

00:45:57
the fact that he also helps create this monster if you want

00:46:01
to call it that and profited handsomely from it.

00:46:03
And isn't that just the old content that they have is to

00:46:07
either give the money? It's like all you can do is ask

00:46:11
the CEO. That's my, it's like you can

00:46:13
tell, you can give them advice but if they're not Not taking

00:46:15
your advice, it's really your for the CEO or you're against

00:46:18
the CEO. And I that I think that is the

00:46:21
bill girly defense, which is gave good advice, didn't have

00:46:25
real power. I mean, now the benchmarks

00:46:27
willingness to just like give up found, you know, power over and

00:46:30
over again. I think that would be sort of

00:46:32
the, the real Benchmark critique which is just like they've

00:46:35
relinquished sort of voting control in exchange for making

00:46:39
tons of money, because that's what the lunatic Founders are

00:46:42
going to make them tons of money.

00:46:43
Want like, that would be my main.

00:46:45
My critique would be the fail, they have a brand as a steward

00:46:49
of these companies but if they were really a steward of the

00:46:52
company they would retain enough power to behave that way they

00:46:55
don't. And that disjunction is the main

00:46:58
Benchmark has and my heart to another Benchmark company.

00:47:01
Right? Right.

00:47:02
Right. Yeah, it's all it's all fun

00:47:04
until they start realizing that, you know, this is affecting

00:47:07
their their returns. You know.

00:47:09
Like this is a financially, crippling cultural problems but

00:47:13
but some of the anti Benchmark people.

00:47:15
Would say things like, they care too much about their reputation,

00:47:18
you know, there is sort of like, they care too much about the

00:47:21
Norms that every the rest of the world cares about, right?

00:47:24
I think, I think my favorite covering over moment was when I

00:47:29
believe you two, and Mike, we were at my house playing Ticket

00:47:34
to Ride, mmm. And we were completely hammered,

00:47:39
and writers. Might have broken an Uber story

00:47:42
and, yeah, one of the wires, With no matching of that story,

00:47:47
right? Crap we've been here we were in

00:47:51
no position the information. I think maybe Rolf us are in the

00:47:55
Wall. Street Journal was just like

00:47:56
that was not happening. Yeah.

00:47:59
There's certain stories that you're not up for at certain

00:48:03
times a night. So let's finish up with the the

00:48:06
show that probably has the most prestige behind it.

00:48:08
Like the one that I think is probably going to get submitted

00:48:11
the most for awards and I think has maybe the most appeal to

00:48:14
people. Oil.

00:48:15
Well, I don't know, maybe the we work so because it has big

00:48:17
actors in it big stars, but the one that Rosa was watching on

00:48:20
her own without me telling her to and she is now so obsessed

00:48:23
with the Thera. No story that she's listening to

00:48:26
the podcast as well. So it's, you know, I think it

00:48:29
may end up the one that has the most cultural impact.

00:48:33
And I would say, probably features the bet, well, I don't

00:48:36
know the best. It's, there's a lot going in

00:48:38
there. And I think it features the most

00:48:40
layered character of any of the center ones here which is which

00:48:43
is Elizabeth Holmes. And like how She ended up the

00:48:46
way that she did, I don't know what you guys crashing of her,

00:48:51
as a character, the thing that I think the thing that it does

00:48:56
that Travis character doesn't do as much as it gives you a way to

00:49:02
actually like her, you know, I mean, it's sort of portrays her

00:49:05
as it's extremely frazzled person for a while that you can

00:49:08
kind of relate to. It's the most sympathetic, she's

00:49:11
not just that pressures but like, her own You know, her her

00:49:17
and maybe this is just because I think a lot of people relate to

00:49:21
this is that you're taught to do a lot of things.

00:49:23
If you're a smart person but you're not necessarily taught

00:49:26
how to present yourself, you're not taught, how to handle a ton

00:49:29
of pressure. You're not taught necessarily

00:49:31
how to present yourself in a big meeting.

00:49:33
And so watching that kind of constant transformation, you you

00:49:37
have some empathy for her, which is I think what you need in

00:49:40
order to get through an entire TV show with somebody.

00:49:45
As with Travis it with the exception of the way they

00:49:48
portray his mother which I think is is done, you know.

00:49:52
Listen, I think that's fine. I think that with Travis with

00:49:57
the exception of his mom they don't give you much about him.

00:50:00
That makes you like him and he's just portrayed as kind of a

00:50:04
one-note fairly chest. Something like ridiculous

00:50:08
person. And so that makes it hard.

00:50:10
It's gonna make it hard to get through like a whole series.

00:50:13
Right? It feels very repetitive and I

00:50:15
guess they also with with the Dropout with Elizabeth Holmes,

00:50:19
you need to have that kind of sympathy with the character

00:50:23
because ultimately she's the one that ends up doing the worst

00:50:26
thing of all of them. I mean, she's the one in which

00:50:29
the result of her company is the most unalloyed bad.

00:50:32
There was no product there. I mean, I interviewed John

00:50:36
Kerry. Roo when his book, when he's

00:50:38
doing his book tour at the time, and I remember asking him, like,

00:50:41
was there any science? Any research that came out of

00:50:43
Thera knows that is of some use. The scientific community and he

00:50:47
was like no nothing like in the end, there was really truly

00:50:50
nothing there and the fact that, you know, these tests were being

00:50:53
used in actual Walgreens around the country and people were

00:50:57
given inaccurate test results and all of that figured into,

00:51:01
you know, the the government's case against her, there were

00:51:05
real consequences here. Born out of the fact that she

00:51:07
did the absolute worst thing. And so to tell the story and not

00:51:10
just have her be like a psychopath on day one, they have

00:51:13
to sort of show like the transformation.

00:51:15
Of her character. So like storytelling.

00:51:17
Why if they had to do that Katie, I'm curious.

00:51:20
What's your close reading of the?

00:51:22
They have the sort of female Professor sort of interacting

00:51:26
with Elizabeth Holmes? Did you see that episode Laurie?

00:51:28
Metcalf, who is like basically just amazing and everything.

00:51:33
She does Elizabeth Holmes, like go to this.

00:51:40
Stanford Professor who she's been referred to and she has

00:51:44
sort of, you know, Blueprints for I think it's when she was

00:51:48
working on a patch or a different different device and

00:51:52
the professor's just like you know this won't work you know

00:51:57
it's a very it's a very anti Silicon Valley speech you know

00:52:01
it's like science requires like a lot of work and time and

00:52:06
expertise right? Well it gets to the core of like

00:52:09
what annoys me so much about certain types of Founders here

00:52:12
which is like a belief that there can just be miracles.

00:52:15
That there's can be one founder who's doing something that no

00:52:17
one has ever thought of before that is like, leap Leaps and

00:52:20
Bounds, but they're not for the rest of the industry, I don't

00:52:22
think so. I think everything builds off of

00:52:25
a foundation of pre-existing work and there is just sure,

00:52:29
World in which someone can come up with, you know, some

00:52:32
scientific device. That is just completely

00:52:34
different than anything anyone has ever tried that.

00:52:37
No, this pisses me off specifically with like, Elon,

00:52:40
because I think there are people out there who think like he's a

00:52:42
miracle worker, who's doing something that's completely

00:52:44
different. Anyone else in the car world is

00:52:47
doing and it's like, no, it's all sort of like smart marketing

00:52:50
on top, right? That is so powerful.

00:52:52
I mean, that's sort of what's Illustrated in the we work show,

00:52:56
right? That his ability to sort of

00:52:58
charm people into thinking, you know, what commercial real

00:53:01
estate is innovative is transformational, and guess to

00:53:05
see it so differently. And then tap them, that's was

00:53:08
the was the numbers, right? Exactly.

00:53:10
And this professor said, to Elizabeth Holmes feeling, like

00:53:13
she needs to like, Put put Elizabeth in her place and tell

00:53:17
her to take her time when when it is.

00:53:19
Like no we want to cultivate the spark and the drive to action.

00:53:23
It's just the key lesson, would be this doesn't work, you need

00:53:27
to be truthful but I do feel like what made that scene

00:53:30
interesting was that the professor was all, was both

00:53:33
telling her a truth and was sort of like and don't be so excited

00:53:37
that you might change the world. And I do think that's sort of

00:53:40
the problem with the academic type is that it's like you've

00:53:44
been sort of beat Down and you don't have the naivete to say.

00:53:48
Let's let's try to build a company out of this, this idea.

00:53:52
I mean like just sort of pulling back a little bit on the idea

00:53:54
because I think it's super interesting.

00:53:56
I don't have I don't know what like there's so many sides to

00:53:59
it, I'm not sure exactly where I come down, but I think that

00:54:02
we're seeing sort of beyond that like the teens as we're getting

00:54:06
into this. Next decade this idea of it's

00:54:10
great to be extremely enthusiastic and move super

00:54:13
fast. And you know, the that's enough.

00:54:19
I think it's starting to be questioned, not for the reasons

00:54:22
necessarily in that speech. But just because we're starting

00:54:26
to see that enthusiasm alone without consistent, hard work

00:54:31
and dedication to whatever it is.

00:54:32
You want to do, does not work. I think that we're seeing that

00:54:36
with for example you could cynically art argue that, that's

00:54:40
the issue of the democratic party.

00:54:41
Right now, there are so much spark around a Barack Obama, but

00:54:45
once It was clear that that wasn't enough.

00:54:48
Where is everyone including Barack Obama?

00:54:51
Like to try to look enough with sure.

00:54:54
Yeah, right. That's the problem.

00:54:56
I'm to try to like, Shore up what we think of as a working

00:54:59
democracy. You know, when you look at

00:55:02
something like this long horrifying drawn-out War that's

00:55:06
happening in Europe. It could go on for a really long

00:55:08
time. Well, if the public doesn't

00:55:10
really have the stomach for or the patience for or the interest

00:55:13
over a long period of time, what does that say about us in our

00:55:16
ability to be, you know, leaders as a country on a world stage.

00:55:20
So I think that there are sort of these bigger questions being

00:55:23
asked about was was being spunky and excited enough.

00:55:28
I think boobers worked hard that Hoover worked on the business

00:55:32
model was challenged and we were and continues to add.

00:55:35
I didn't necessarily work. He was, you know, very

00:55:37
passionate, just saying on that speech, that you described,

00:55:40
which I think is really interesting.

00:55:43
The, the question of whether or Not that assumption that

00:55:48
enthusiasm and creativity and upending, the apple cart and

00:55:52
doing it all. New is enough that there has to

00:55:54
be somewhat more of a balance maybe between that.

00:55:56
And these stodger ideas about diligence it's like the

00:56:01
dichotomy between branding and results, like Sizzle and steak

00:56:05
or like something that's revolutionary and like

00:56:08
evolutionary, it's like if absent any sort of Revolution,

00:56:12
it's just really about what can I brand it in a way?

00:56:15
That that makes it sound like it's that and you know like

00:56:18
Steve Jobs who obviously was like to bring it back to

00:56:20
Elizabeth Holmes. Literally she's like staring at

00:56:23
a picture, a poster of him on her wall saying I want to do

00:56:25
that and you know that leads to a transfer my judgment.

00:56:29
Like I really I don't know if we were suppose she got like so

00:56:32
close. I was like are they gonna have

00:56:34
her kiss the poster of Steve Jobs?

00:56:36
She just be food at the shower. Yeah, exactly.

00:56:40
She took makes out with herself. The rest of us I know what was

00:56:42
their great mirror scenes. I mean it's He is really good.

00:56:46
Looking in a mirror. How do you think it's a very

00:56:48
good job acting? Yeah.

00:56:50
What Rosa called the Golem? See.

00:56:52
It does feel a little like try it.

00:56:55
Yeah. When she tries out the voice

00:56:56
anyway, sorry to reload you're making but Steve Jobs, you know,

00:56:59
is the certainly as close to a revolutionary as a CEO is anyone

00:57:03
was in the valley But ultimately he was just building, you know,

00:57:07
very good at branding something that other people were working

00:57:11
on as well. You know, there was a

00:57:13
transformation of the personal computer and then the hand Held

00:57:15
device, all these things existed but his was like, let me make it

00:57:18
more attractive. Let me brand it in a way that's

00:57:20
unique and that's what's going to be.

00:57:22
That makes, you know, that's going to be the the traction

00:57:24
that gets the public excited about it.

00:57:26
I couldn't agree with what you're saying, but I feel like

00:57:28
it is argument for the end of time.

00:57:32
I mean, just it's like user interface like it making just

00:57:36
because sort of smartphone existed, the functionality of it

00:57:39
is, is like the whole game. I mean, it's sort of like saying

00:57:43
like, Lamborghinis, bad, because Like it's only the Aesthetics

00:57:47
that are good. It's like, that's no, but this

00:57:50
is slightly different from the like, from the, this is what's

00:57:52
so dangerous. I think about Silicon Valley is

00:57:55
that, it's the, it has the, the skin, or it has the like

00:57:58
appearance of it, being all scientific revolutionaries.

00:58:01
When I think truly at its core, a lot of it is just about

00:58:03
branding. Well, is that taking thing about

00:58:05
like, so guess jobs was great at branding but the other thing he

00:58:09
was really great at doing is convincing people who work for

00:58:12
him to work. 120 hours a week. Right?

00:58:14
When Sure. That the inside of the phone

00:58:16
work. Great.

00:58:17
And the outside looked great. And so yes, it was branding

00:58:20
combined with actual real hard effort over a tremendously long

00:58:24
amount of time. And that's the part that I think

00:58:26
the valley glosses over there like you're going to, you're

00:58:29
going to have a great idea. I will give you the money to

00:58:31
make it happen but they're like oh and by the way, you're going

00:58:33
to work like all your entire life around the clock to make it

00:58:37
make it go. I agree with Katie and the

00:58:39
media, yes to criticize ourselves is anti hard work in a

00:58:43
certain way, right? I would say.

00:58:45
Borders are most. Nobody is beating the drum being

00:58:48
like, I feel like it is not cool right now.

00:58:50
To write a story being like it's a lazy company over there.

00:58:52
Are they really going to, you know, like it is, it is much

00:58:55
more like, are they over working people, you know, but but at the

00:58:58
end of the day, I agree that companies like apple are

00:59:01
successful when when they're working super hard.

00:59:05
I mean in the beginning obviously which I cool or

00:59:08
whatever you can. So you know once you have a

00:59:10
monopoly yeah there's tons of money right here that we don't

00:59:13
need to get into it jobs. Right.

00:59:15
Which is why I think, you know, Adam Newman and Elizabeth

00:59:17
Holmes, I'm sure they were a bit perplexed by the fact that they

00:59:20
ended up being villains at this whole story because I think

00:59:23
their whole strategy from the beginning was like, we're just

00:59:25
doing what we're supposed to be doing.

00:59:27
This is about getting people to Believe in Us, Messianic Lee as

00:59:31
Leaders, who have a revolutionary idea, making them

00:59:33
work really hard and also branding something in a way that

00:59:35
the public is excited about. And, you know, we work as a, you

00:59:38
know, it's really nothing. It's really just real estate.

00:59:41
I mean like the least Innovative field imaginable very profitable

00:59:44
when done, right? Right or apparently not profit

00:59:47
done in the way that we work today.

00:59:49
But like with with Farrah knows what makes it so incredibly

00:59:53
dangerous was the fact that it was dealing with something that

00:59:56
it like branding is not, it can't be at the core of it.

00:59:59
It needs to be truly driven by Scientific Revolution or

01:00:03
progress and you know if it had been in a slightly different

01:00:07
context if she had you know let's say has this meeting with

01:00:09
the Laurie Metcalf professor and then it's like well I'm still

01:00:12
going to try it. I'm still going to try to build

01:00:14
this thing and Then she gets seed funding and then it doesn't

01:00:17
work out. Like the science isn't there?

01:00:18
And the company dies, that's kind of how science goes.

01:00:21
It's a research with Aaron, has the key piece of every good

01:00:24
fraud story where she makes sort of the small lie, right?

01:00:28
She's like you're the type of person willing to lie.

01:00:31
She does the small lie. It's like okay, we know the

01:00:33
machine works but we can't get it to work for the tracks.

01:00:35
The green juice we're going to do well that's a different but

01:00:38
she does the machine to us you know, she fakes that and then

01:00:43
she fakes a little bit more and then they're in.

01:00:45
She's in too deep and then. Okay we know the whole company

01:00:48
is a fraud but you know that's that's what's going to fund the

01:00:51
research and development and all these, you know, you can sort of

01:00:54
see how the willingness to be to make the small lie, sort of

01:00:58
sets. You on this like rock rolling

01:01:01
down a hill, Bernie Madoff. In a way that isn't true.

01:01:05
I don't think with Travis and Adam like the the financial

01:01:09
games were in the in the fight, you know?

01:01:12
It was obvious to any investor Just like the amount of money

01:01:16
they were losing to. I mean, to the extent that they

01:01:18
were sort of hucksters on that sense.

01:01:21
It was like, well, read the financials.

01:01:23
I mean, reporters were openly mocking both companies as they

01:01:26
were raising tons of money, right?

01:01:29
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, you know, talking to non-tech

01:01:32
people about these shows. I was talking to my younger

01:01:34
brother and he really loves the we work show and, you know, the

01:01:39
Thera, no show short. That's a clear story, everyone

01:01:41
knows, but he was like, well, what would what exactly did Uber

01:01:43
do wrong? It was Like his question to me

01:01:46
and it's like well you know they were kind of running the company

01:01:48
very controversially and there were a lot of scandals in the

01:01:50
culture was awful but they were better kind of is right?

01:01:54
Yeah, a big jerks. Here's your question.

01:01:57
I don't know. And I don't even like, I don't

01:02:00
I'm not going to question whether they were jerks.

01:02:02
I do not want to be canceled. There were I do think the fact

01:02:07
that they were jerks honestly was the problem.

01:02:10
The fact that Travis could never really show Contrition for

01:02:13
anything, just made it so that That the public hate of him just

01:02:17
grew hotter and hotter because he was never truly contrite, but

01:02:21
I guess a question about boober to me is like, you know, the

01:02:24
Susan Valor thing, the cultural questions.

01:02:26
Mike had a great piece on the culture, we definitely damned

01:02:31
Uber in a certain sense, but I that but then sent in a post

01:02:34
Trump era where people were very worried about people.

01:02:38
Let you know that was like post grab them by the pussy or

01:02:40
whatever. You know, we were very worried

01:02:41
about that. And then after Uber, we saw all

01:02:44
these companies You know, get scrutiny over over the treatment

01:02:49
of women. I do think there's a question,

01:02:50
whether Uber was sort of the first of what became sort of a

01:02:54
parent at most many companies where women were poorly treated,

01:02:58
or I think people still associate boober with being

01:03:01
disproportionately bad. And I do think it's hard to know

01:03:04
first right? Was it just a case study because

01:03:07
he created all this Heap on his company, or was it actually

01:03:11
worse than other companies? I think part of it too, is that

01:03:14
it was Was Silicon Valley and that portion of the tech

01:03:18
industry because like, I was so numb to that kind of behavior.

01:03:22
When I got to San Francisco, I'd been covering Wall Street.

01:03:25
And so the idea of writing an expose of a large bank or a

01:03:29
hedgehog thing, oh my God, these guys are a holes would who would

01:03:33
have cared? I mean, I guess I could have

01:03:34
written a story about literally any Wall Street firm, but it

01:03:39
wouldn't have mattered it only. I'm not going to say, only I

01:03:42
think it primarily mattered in Silicon Valley because The

01:03:45
Public Image, think simple, large part to Google was that

01:03:49
these guys are the good guys. They figured out a way to do

01:03:51
business without being terrible. And they figured out a way to do

01:03:55
business and still treat people fantastically.

01:03:57
And so, when you saw the most successful of the cohort of that

01:04:01
era actually turn out to be jerks.

01:04:03
Just like the guy is working at like oh gee, you know like

01:04:06
Goldman Sachs or glute going back in time Solomon Brothers

01:04:10
are going back in time like it doesn't matter like right, it

01:04:13
felt different Because of the supposed culture, I cannot think

01:04:19
of another industry. Like if somebody wrote a story

01:04:21
about how like, wow people at Pepsi or mean to one another, do

01:04:23
you think that would like blow the lid off like the consumer

01:04:26
products industry? Yeah, probably not an older

01:04:29
industry but and I think that was the real appeal of people

01:04:32
from Wall Street to come to Silicon Valley that you can come

01:04:35
be incredibly wealthy but also do it for these companies that

01:04:38
exist solely for good, right? It's post you know, the 2008

01:04:41
crash people were so rightfully cynical about You know, the

01:04:46
missions of all of these companies that Silicon Valley

01:04:48
was like, this very appealing, Clarion call to the Wall Street

01:04:53
types to come here. I also think that Trump was

01:04:55
elected and Democrats couldn't get rid of trump.

01:04:59
There were no consequences in Silicon Valley companies are

01:05:02
made up of mostly Democrats and then when they had these sort of

01:05:06
trumpy style leaders like Travis, they were able to

01:05:10
actually show know, we can do something about this.

01:05:13
Moral problem in our society, we don't like, you know, the

01:05:16
biggest public outcry against Uber, is delete ruber, which was

01:05:21
based on stupid under a stupid understanding of what actually

01:05:25
happened. Was, totally misguided.

01:05:27
I mean, it, I'm not saying the people's anti Uber feelings,

01:05:30
were misguided. You know, those were based on

01:05:32
many stories, but the specific like uber got rid of surge

01:05:35
pricing, which was supposed to help them avoid controversy, but

01:05:39
then somehow that got position is if anyway, where the it

01:05:43
doesn't matter re-litigating about YouTuber, but Basically,

01:05:45
if there were people who were upset about a massive event that

01:05:48
they had no control over, which was the election.

01:05:51
They were grasping for ways to take control of something.

01:05:55
They saw as analogous is probably pretty astute, no

01:05:57
matter how, no matter how they did it, whether the way they

01:06:00
did, it was good or bad, whether it was ham-fisted or whether it

01:06:03
was really Deft. I think your point is

01:06:05
interesting and probably correct that they were like, we are just

01:06:08
trying to respond to this bigger idea that something's not right?

01:06:13
Right and maybe just to close off you know here with with the

01:06:16
theranos show, I think what continues to make that story.

01:06:20
So interesting is that I think it was and this gets maybe into

01:06:24
the controversy or debate about whether or not.

01:06:27
So you know theranos was a tech company is Silicon.

01:06:29
Valley Product is that it existed so much through the

01:06:33
Silicon Valley Playbook but only seem to have adopted the worst

01:06:36
aspects of what tech can stand for, which is just Sizzle.

01:06:41
It's just branding, it's just raising more money.

01:06:43
Money and it's just trying to get people excited about

01:06:45
something that they have no real reason to get excited for.

01:06:48
And I think the best of tech has those elements but also has a

01:06:51
real product behind it. And you know, theranos is sort

01:06:55
of everything about tech distilled to its most cynical

01:06:58
ends. And in a way that legitimately

01:07:01
harmed people and it's I never know the larger lesson.

01:07:06
Well, the funny thing and what you're saying is that I feel

01:07:09
like in the show Holmes, goes to venture.

01:07:13
Was and tries to pitch them, to join our business and they don't

01:07:17
like to some degree. It is like a validating moment

01:07:20
in the show for Silicon Valley, but the show can't be.

01:07:24
They just can't stand giving, like Finance types of wind, so

01:07:27
they make the VCS like sexist about her and they almost make

01:07:30
it seem dumb that they're not giving her their money.

01:07:32
Even though it's a fraudulent business.

01:07:35
It felt like I felt at the time. Like by that's our, she felt.

01:07:39
Yeah. On the cover of on the cover of

01:07:40
Fortune, a lot of those DC's did feel dumb for not.

01:07:43
For not investing, right? Yeah, yeah.

01:07:45
I think people should watch all three shows just because

01:07:48
they're, they're interesting in their own right and that they

01:07:51
each have like such a different view of it and if you listen to

01:07:54
this podcast, you can like I feel like yeah, I don't know if

01:07:59
you're not watching them, who is the power going to write?

01:08:01
Because they're not all on the same streaming service.

01:08:04
Oh my God, right, so many now, Tom's using some of my, I'm

01:08:07
using your Hulu. I am and I don't want to say the

01:08:09
rest for personal reasons. Let's It's a of the three

01:08:14
streaming services that I watch TV shows on.

01:08:15
I am paying for years All right, all right.

01:08:20
That's anyway. Yeah.

01:08:22
All right. This was fun guys.

01:08:25
Goodbye goodbye.

01:08:36
Goodbye. Goodbye.

01:08:37
Goodbye goodbye, goodbye. Goodbye.