I’m in Italy right now for my first extended vacation of the year. I spent yesterday bopping around Siena, taking in another beautiful Duomo, eating a sandwich with lardo, and hunting for the frescoes that provided the grist for my girlfriend’s mom’s art history thesis. After stopping in Rome and Florence, my girlfriend and I are staying in rural Tuscany for a friend’s wedding and then are headed to Cinque Terre in a few days.
I’m doing my best to disconnect from the newsletter for these two weeks — though not as much as my girlfriend might like.
I left my podcast co-hosts Tom Dotan and Katie Benner to their own devices with Dead Cat this week. Listening to the episode, they’re clearly feeling a little more pessimistic than I am. Tom proposed for the subject line of this email, “No ideas. No joy. No money” or “the summer of despair.” Both struck me as a little too dour.
In the latest episode of Dead Cat, Tom and Katie take stock of some of the top stories in tech this week via Techmeme headlines: The implosion of Apple’s self-driving car program, the Uber files, and Elon Musk’s fight with Twitter. They ask why tech seems to be stuck in a rut. But mostly they seem to have a fun time, sardonically dissecting the tech world and puzzling out what the latest stock downturn means for our favorite tech storylines. It’s an enjoyable listen if you’ve got some time to kill as vineyards and hay bales pass you by.
Their discussion hinges in part on The Information’s latest reporting on Apple’s self-driving car program. Apple just can’t seem to figure it out.
The Information’s Wayne Ma reported on the perils of demoware:
Engineers waste precious time choreographing demonstrations along specific routes using technology that works there but almost nowhere else, a phenomenon known as demoware. Some people who have worked on Titan say Apple fell harder into the demoware trap than some rivals, despite the fact that an automated car with no steering wheel needs to drive almost perfectly everywhere or few people would feel safe buying one.
“If you spend enough money, you can get almost any fixed route to work,” said Arun Venkatadri, who previously worked on self-driving cars at Uber and now runs Model-Prime, which makes software tools for robotics companies. “But what isn’t shown is whether you can build your self-driving software in a scalable fashion and whether you can operate in a reasonably broad area.”
And if Apple can’t figure it out, who can? Despite constant promises and over-optimistic projections from self-driving car researchers, the driverless cars don’t seem to be coming to the masses anytime soon.
Even while on vacation, I couldn’t help myself from reading Twitter’s lawsuit against Elon Musk. The suit convinced usually skeptical Hindenburg Research to buy Twitter shares, believing that Twitter had a compelling case on its hands.
It’s hard not to feel bad for Twitter. They never wanted Musk to try to buy them in the first place. Then Musk gave them an offer too good to refuse. And since then, he seems to be trying to do everything in his power to further erode Twitter’s value without paying them the premium he agreed to.
Tom and Katie break down the drama on the latest episode.
Give it a listen.
Get full access to Newcomer at www.newcomer.co/subscribe
00:00:06
Welcome back on Sally. So Tom I was reading technium.
00:00:16
I was reading, do, people read Tech me.
00:00:18
I was looking at the technique you scan through Page meme.
00:00:21
Yeah, do you read technium? But I like reading the internet.
00:00:23
Yeah, so I was scanning, take me.
00:00:26
And I thought that it was like, I was looking at the three Top
00:00:30
articles on Tech name to be introduced the episode.
00:00:32
Did you do like, hey, it's Katie.
00:00:34
Do we do that? No.
00:00:35
Why do we have to do that? I mean, if people listen
00:00:37
regularly, they know, we are mean, I don't know, let's do it,
00:00:40
just do it, just do it. I'm Katie.
00:00:42
I'm Tom, this is dead cat. Welcome.
00:00:45
This is an Eric newcomer list episode.
00:00:47
He's on vacation, it's Kitty and I holding down the fort.
00:00:51
Barely. Yeah barely.
00:00:53
It's the two Elder Statesman of the podcast and yet I feel like
00:00:57
we get admonished by Eric four times that we almost Our it's
00:01:00
just us I mean newcomer yeah so Tom is Holding On by a thread.
00:01:05
He needs a vacation, I'm definitely on vacation but I'm
00:01:07
working every day so here we are.
00:01:09
Yeah. And I was scanning the top of
00:01:12
tech meme like you do. I don't think you read it, you
00:01:15
just scan it. And again, notice that top three
00:01:17
articles one, the first number one article is about
00:01:20
self-driving cars. The number two is about Poober
00:01:23
and the number three is about a Down Round.
00:01:27
So I like this because It's so similar to when I was covering
00:01:31
Tech, I felt right Aronson. Exactly.
00:01:34
It's very 2017 and so I like the familiarity but clearly it seems
00:01:39
to me just from scanning technique the arguably, the most
00:01:43
important website, in fact that the text seems somewhat to be in
00:01:49
a rut. So Tom as somebody who's
00:01:51
covering this day to day, why is this happening?
00:01:54
It's very strange, it's very strange.
00:01:57
I think, first of all, we have to say, any sort of News cycle
00:02:00
has to be caveat it with the fact that it is.
00:02:02
So, it's July, it's July, no one really wants to work.
00:02:06
I know this on a daily basis and yet we do.
00:02:10
And so the sort of flow of news gets extremely weird, I think,
00:02:14
the analogy, I mean, this is across all, you know, all Beats.
00:02:18
I'll sections of the paper. But the analogy to me is always
00:02:21
like, remember Network TV during the summer.
00:02:23
Used to be just like, just weird shit.
00:02:26
Like, you have to seat the shows we get to their season finale,
00:02:28
in May, and then Like the next week it'd be like here's a weird
00:02:32
ass game show that ever get put on the air except during the
00:02:35
summer like here's a bear eating a thousand, hot dogs like
00:02:38
Trapper John MD oh yeah. Show that I think was made only
00:02:42
to be Runnin Syndicate but by and large weird shit happens
00:02:45
during the summer and so the news cycle gets strange and
00:02:49
slow. So I do want to say up front
00:02:51
that is definitely something to consider, but I think there's
00:02:55
something larger at play here. I think we are dealing with part
00:02:59
of the Cycle. Writ large, like the multi-year
00:03:02
cycle that has reached some sort of a trough, a stasis, a moment
00:03:07
of disillusionment and I don't know, just stuck stuck in this.
00:03:11
We just feel like we're like the cursor is just sort of spinning
00:03:15
and we don't really know if like the program is operating in the
00:03:17
background. We keep staring at the cursor
00:03:19
being like is something going to load.
00:03:21
Is anything is anything going to happen here?
00:03:24
And I think the story is that you mention and just generally
00:03:27
my experience on the be talking to people.
00:03:29
All right. Now we are in a very, very
00:03:32
interesting and in my opinion of the like what has it been like
00:03:37
eight fucking years that I've been on this beat a a kind of
00:03:40
unrecognizable part of the cycle and I see what's happening in
00:03:44
the news, it feels like, first of all, there's no Tech, it's no
00:03:47
longer fun and they're definitely no new ideas.
00:03:50
I mean, just look at these stories.
00:03:52
Self-driving cars, right? Boober down rounds, right?
00:03:55
This a is so it's not only our that is the news, the same, the
00:03:59
news, Is usually the news of the same, because the activities are
00:04:03
the same, right? And so, what's going on with
00:04:07
ideas in Tech and then what's going on with money?
00:04:10
So like no one's really having any fun and ones, creating any
00:04:13
new ideas. And yeah, certainly, there's
00:04:15
something going on with the money, the money and maybe,
00:04:17
maybe maybe is a good idea to take each one of these stories
00:04:20
from by one. I remember, I started covering
00:04:22
tack at the information with a mirror of Rowdy, mr.
00:04:27
Self-driving car, mr. Zalto, Himself.
00:04:30
Yeah, my favorite person that we did work uncomfortably close.
00:04:34
He insisted on the standing desk I had a seated desk and I'll
00:04:38
just say positionally. It wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't
00:04:42
ideal for not recommended Ocho probably would have a good case
00:04:45
against the entire office layout of early days of other really,
00:04:49
is really tight. I'll put it that way but um, but
00:04:52
I remember when we were talking about this story is the
00:04:54
self-driving car. Listen 20, 2014 2015, its
00:04:58
self-driving car was going to be upon us. 20:22 wish I think
00:05:02
know. For sure if not Belgium
00:05:04
self-driving car was here flying car was going to be further
00:05:07
away, the self-driving car was Within Reach and so this is not
00:05:12
only an article about the self-driving car but about how
00:05:14
self-driving car is definitely not happening at least for
00:05:17
Apple. Right?
00:05:18
And it isn't, it's not happening for Apple.
00:05:20
I mean apples willing to spend more time and more money.
00:05:22
They will accuse better Parts. They're willing to use like more
00:05:25
effective but / more. More expensive technology.
00:05:29
It was not happy. Grapple.
00:05:31
I would dare posit. It's probably not happening for
00:05:33
others. So is this, you know what, what
00:05:36
is happening with this story? Definitely, the matically fits
00:05:38
with that. So the technium headline, we're
00:05:40
really giving our time are time to Tech Meme here, which Eggman
00:05:44
is sponsoring this episode. Yeah, thanks Gabe.
00:05:48
So yeah, the technium headline, is report.
00:05:50
Details apples eight-year. Struggle to build a self-driving
00:05:53
car as 20 people who worked on the project site, constant
00:05:55
shifting goals and more and then this is a summation.
00:05:59
A Relation of a story that was in the information by my former
00:06:03
colleague, Wayne ma who is really getting deep into all the
00:06:06
kind of failed initiatives inside Apple.
00:06:09
These days here earlier had a story about their a, our efforts
00:06:14
and why those have also just been completely uninspiring and
00:06:18
shitty. So yeah, the story basically is
00:06:21
explaining over the years, why they are one of the many
00:06:25
companies that have spent billions and billions of dollars
00:06:27
on this thing, but just won't do anything.
00:06:29
Being close to what it needs to do, in order for it to be ready
00:06:33
for you, or me to take it. And I think this is like a
00:06:37
perfect explanation encapsulation of where Tech is
00:06:40
with its most ambitious and interesting products right now,
00:06:44
right? Look, there's no question of
00:06:46
self-driving car would actually be transformative, right?
00:06:49
I mean, that's actually, first of all, four companies like
00:06:51
uber, it would give them like a real business model because they
00:06:54
would, they would like, crap, you know, transformative Okay.
00:07:00
Can you do well I'll think about transformative.
00:07:02
Maybe like patchily, transformative, transformative
00:07:05
for some open you. I'm willing to debate that point
00:07:07
but at least we got a pretty cool.
00:07:08
The idea of like a robot car that would drive around and not
00:07:12
kill people, which seems call you problem for at least a.
00:07:16
And then the Apple car is detailed in the story to have
00:07:18
almost hit a jogger but before a human stopped it from doing
00:07:22
that, you know, it's just, it's just not there.
00:07:25
I just see them at this stage now where they need something
00:07:29
new in Her to consider themselves an Innovative
00:07:32
technology company they can probably.
00:07:33
I mean you covered Apple Katie's you maybe have some I don't know
00:07:37
Distant Memories of this but they could probably like lean on
00:07:40
the profits of making everyone buy a new iPhone every 18 months
00:07:44
for a while. Yeah, I mean, they're kind of
00:07:45
becoming a software company. You have to pay them every month
00:07:48
for your data space, you have to pay them every month for your
00:07:51
iTunes, or for your Apple music, or for your Apple TV.
00:07:55
They're running a subscription software company and I think
00:07:57
that's where they're going to get a lot of their growth.
00:07:59
But to your point they would like to have a new product.
00:08:03
This is not necessarily an iPhone and I wonder at what
00:08:07
point they kill the car, you know, that they're just like,
00:08:10
what's on this idea? This is a dry.
00:08:12
Well, we are, we are, we are pumping a dry well and it would
00:08:15
be. Yeah, I know I just like they
00:08:18
probably will at some point, right?
00:08:20
There's no way that this thing is going to be Street ready for
00:08:24
regular people in the next decade or so I just don't and
00:08:27
there is always this argument that it will.
00:08:29
Inevitably happen, it must happen.
00:08:32
And first of all, I don't know that it must happen.
00:08:34
Like I think that people human beings can drive cars and they
00:08:37
do it pretty well. And the other issue is that when
00:08:42
robots drive the cars humans or much warier about the statistics
00:08:45
around accidents. So right now obviously there's
00:08:48
human error and their car accidents Galore because of
00:08:50
human error and we've kind of accepted that but I think that
00:08:53
we that there's something about the robots taking over.
00:08:57
We don't want there to be accidents where much Forgiving
00:09:00
about that, margin of it. Oh yeah, yeah, because the
00:09:03
number of people that get hit by humans is unlike unacceptable,
00:09:07
really good through the roof right now, like in Washington
00:09:10
DC, it's pretty pretty, pretty terrible.
00:09:14
Statistically, it's gone up. Thank you pandemic.
00:09:16
But at the same time, you know, is it really?
00:09:19
An inevitability? Do we need to have self-driving
00:09:22
cars? Is that something that must
00:09:24
happen? Even if I buy the argument that
00:09:26
it will, by the time happens? What else will be going on in
00:09:31
the world? What other new technology will
00:09:33
have happened? That makes it just feel a little
00:09:35
bit less exciting if and that's a very optimistic case too.
00:09:39
Because it says that there could be really new big, fresh ideas
00:09:42
and Tech. And I don't really see those
00:09:45
happening so much and again, like business model wise for a
00:09:50
company like uber, which spends, you know, 80% of every fair or
00:09:54
so on paying, you know, drivers fucking human beings that Carry
00:10:00
out the tasks and work, the, you know, the robo taxi idea is very
00:10:04
interesting to them. Like, for them, it is kind of
00:10:06
existential debatably existential for Apple.
00:10:09
It's not right? It's just a thing.
00:10:11
It's just like well we need to be at the Forefront of what we
00:10:14
think. Go, new technology is so I guess
00:10:16
we have this money that we should spend on cars.
00:10:19
What is the new technology? That's the, that's the other
00:10:20
question. Like what are we?
00:10:22
What are we lacking right now? The technology is going to help
00:10:26
us with. I'm not saying that doesn't
00:10:27
exist. I can think of numerous things
00:10:29
in medicine. Sun' alone.
00:10:31
But it seems like BC money over the last few years was really
00:10:35
pouring into. How does somebody put this to me
00:10:38
the other day? Maybe it was you Tom things that
00:10:41
make life marginally better for people with a lot of money.
00:10:43
Oh, I think that was me. Yeah, yeah, Bruno Kirby.
00:10:49
And When Harry Met Sally, I was waiting to hear if it's out of
00:10:52
those parts where I took credit for it.
00:10:54
I wrote that line, it pleases me.
00:10:56
Yeah. But I think AR is a better
00:10:59
example. Of something that Apple really,
00:11:02
really wants to have happen because that, you know, that
00:11:04
does sound like a new platform G.
00:11:06
That is like, a new way to experience the world, which is
00:11:08
what Apple's always trying to claim their Tech can do, right?
00:11:12
And I think it sucks. I think everything that these
00:11:15
companies have been investing in for the time being right now.
00:11:19
It's really shitty. It's nowhere.
00:11:21
Close to the promise and actually this this information
00:11:24
story. I thought had a great line in
00:11:26
it. I hadn't heard before but they
00:11:28
were because they what they've managed to do.
00:11:29
What? Apple has managed to do is train
00:11:32
some of their self driving cars to perform really well in closed
00:11:35
circuits that can go on fixed routes.
00:11:38
So it's not right dealing with, like, real-time human activity.
00:11:42
But you can kind of get it on a course to do stuff, which is
00:11:44
what you need in a self-driving car.
00:11:46
Yell time human activity. Yeah.
00:11:48
And and the term he used was demo where?
00:11:50
Yes, yes. I said.
00:11:51
I love that. Yeah.
00:11:52
And that's, that's what it is, right?
00:11:54
I mean, and that's what they are is and I, you know, I've bitched
00:11:56
about this constantly on the show that like, these companies.
00:11:59
Really good at getting groups of reporters to go down to their
00:12:03
offices and give them demos of these products.
00:12:06
That at the time, they right, where the glowing reviews about
00:12:09
and then nothing ever comes of it because it can't do anything
00:12:11
outside of the presentation that they gave to credulous reporters
00:12:16
in the moment that they gave it to them.
00:12:17
I think also, the problem is, is that, you know, you could argue
00:12:20
that a lot of the technology especially around on demand and
00:12:24
other, you know, especially right on demand, like, uber are
00:12:27
things that made life better. It made you feel like you
00:12:30
enjoyed existing in the world more.
00:12:32
You could even say that if some social media you went out to go
00:12:35
on Hikes and to go to weddings you could share these pictures,
00:12:37
etc, etc. But it's I think it's hard to
00:12:40
make the argument that for most people, particularly those with
00:12:42
a disposable income that technology companies want to
00:12:45
Target that living in a are is better than living in real life,
00:12:50
right? And so, even if it was the most
00:12:52
amazing, a our upper, if all it did was make you feel like you
00:12:55
were doing the thing you could do, if you walk out your door
00:12:58
and people are like, oh but you could go to the loo.
00:12:59
When you could never do that in real life, I'm sorry about the
00:13:02
audience of people that companies actually want to
00:13:04
Target, who have disposable income.
00:13:06
They probably could get to an art museum, right?
00:13:08
So if they really wanted to, and I probably would enjoy it a
00:13:11
little bit more in person because then you can go to the
00:13:13
cafeteria after and get an ice cream and talk about thing.
00:13:15
You just saw and I and I think that that is one of the big
00:13:19
problems that they are. It's just not going to make it
00:13:22
even if it is. So so good.
00:13:24
It won't be better than real life.
00:13:26
And so it feels like yes, a new platform but Bit of a waste of
00:13:30
time, right? Right.
00:13:32
I thought you actually was, yeah, let me quote, you back to
00:13:35
UK it earlier episode owning a sick show ya, what are you gonna
00:13:40
do? Who would have thought that
00:13:41
Eric's? Not here, it gets even more
00:13:43
self-congratulatory. So I think you were talking
00:13:47
about how, like, you know, the people that are spending
00:13:50
millions and billions of dollars creating the metaverse, which,
00:13:53
by the way, that's not a thing. We've talked about, in a couple
00:13:55
months, I don't have another metaverse now.
00:13:57
It's really pitch in the butter verse, not a Of a tech meme.
00:14:01
I think, you know, these are rich people that are spending
00:14:04
their money going on ski trips in.
00:14:06
You know, what I can tell is skiing.
00:14:09
Yeah, look out there in Vail, they're in the Alps, or what's
00:14:12
left of the snow in the Alps. I mean, they're not spending
00:14:15
time in the metaverse pretending that it's fun to like virtually
00:14:18
enjoy a concert. They're getting like backstage
00:14:21
passes to the concert. Yeah.
00:14:22
And so there is definitely a mismatch between what, you know,
00:14:25
the people at the top of the business World.
00:14:27
Think the rest of us losers will enjoy.
00:14:29
Oi and what they're doing and what they claim is going to be
00:14:32
the future. When, in fact, it's not a future
00:14:34
that they seem all that particularly interested in
00:14:37
participating and whatsoever. So then the other one on the
00:14:41
list you want to move on down to, I think we have to address
00:14:43
this like uber story thing. Yeah, over files.
00:14:46
I don't think. I really don't want to belabor
00:14:48
it for a variety of reasons, including the fact that I don't
00:14:52
have time to read the entirety of it.
00:14:54
You have it all under 25 doctor but I did, I did notice
00:14:58
that a lot of the Things that I'm seeing these stories.
00:15:02
I feel like I've somewhat read right before, right?
00:15:07
And that the that no, no. I mean, you can argue that some
00:15:11
of these things have been reported before and they're not
00:15:13
necessarily knew you could argue that doesn't matter because
00:15:15
having the documents to stand them up as important, putting
00:15:17
that debate aside. What you're looking at is a
00:15:20
company that was growing really fast and was really interesting
00:15:25
several years ago and you're looking at the things that
00:15:27
happened when it was growing really fast was really Ting.
00:15:30
Several years ago, which says, to me that like, uber is not
00:15:33
really as interesting today and that sort of that cohort of
00:15:37
companies, it makes me wonder, are they have they all kind of
00:15:42
topped out and nothing is really replacing.
00:15:44
If what we're doing is reading about, you know, the sort of
00:15:48
mascot of the era of Mac. But just, you know, what was
00:15:52
happening? Five years ago, right?
00:15:55
Right. It's like it as the new cycle is
00:15:57
slow and both because of the season.
00:15:59
Just like where we are and like the broader Tech cycle.
00:16:03
It's like they're the universe is trying to like pull out
00:16:05
Greatest Hits from the time where Tech was more interesting.
00:16:09
So it's like, all right self-driving is this anything
00:16:11
for you? Ok.
00:16:12
No. OK, how about Uber Scandal?
00:16:15
There's a candle is so hot in 2017.
00:16:18
It's like, oh, is there a new Uber Scandal?
00:16:20
No. Yeah.
00:16:21
It's the old Libra scandals. You're like, oh yeah, you be the
00:16:25
stories that every news Outlet was writing about endlessly in
00:16:28
2017 there like Like yeah, it's those like even the same cast of
00:16:32
characters. Yeah it's like what you know
00:16:34
what is Travis doing these days? Well he's gotta you know it's
00:16:36
really not a PR person and defending himself it's like,
00:16:39
okay. Because remember that terrifying
00:16:42
with the law. So let's go back to when he
00:16:44
wasn't, that was pretty cool. Yeah.
00:16:46
I will say, I don't want to spend too much time on Uber
00:16:49
specifically because we are going to have an episode about
00:16:52
it. And several weeks and newcomer,
00:16:53
whatever we do Eric is going to be really upset.
00:16:56
Yeah, yeah, he did allow us to talk about it, but I think we're
00:16:59
going to Only a limited fashion. Yeah.
00:17:02
So without going into too many of the specifics of it, I will
00:17:06
say again, I think it's funny that these stories do not seem
00:17:09
like they have caught the World by storm.
00:17:12
I mean, I don't know, I mean like, they've been in all these
00:17:15
newsletters there at the top of tech beam.
00:17:17
Like, I don't know what catching the World by storm.
00:17:20
It's hard, it's hard. If you do such extreme things.
00:17:23
Now bring a sack a major government building.
00:17:25
Gonna do a lot of things. It's really cat.
00:17:27
Yeah, it's like capturing people's attentions for
00:17:29
difficulties. Yeah, yeah yeah.
00:17:30
And you know I'm like I see right now, as we record this
00:17:33
like on the Washington Post, it's the front of this.
00:17:35
You know, it's the top of the top news story, they have that
00:17:37
they really blew it out. There's any one of the news
00:17:39
outlets that worked with the international Consortium of
00:17:43
investigative journalists to analyze the documents.
00:17:46
And, you know, they're trying to make a big thing out of it.
00:17:48
And they've had a couple of interesting stories or does it.
00:17:52
The leakers already? Come forward and stories, like,
00:17:54
not even a day old. Like, what don't don't?
00:17:57
Don't whistleblowers want, Mystique.
00:17:59
Or what happened. I thought that the cycle the way
00:18:02
it works, like the rollout work, is that you do the big, couple
00:18:05
of stories and you get everyone. So Juiced about your like, who
00:18:08
is this person? It's just guy.
00:18:10
Who is this, you know? And then on the last day, it's
00:18:12
like the big reveal and it's like, oh, it's someone that we
00:18:14
don't know, but maybe maybe famous know.
00:18:17
Yay. They really speeding up the
00:18:19
cycle. It seems like things are going a
00:18:21
little too fast, right? Just kind of a tech him in a
00:18:23
baby. That's a tech information.
00:18:25
Yeah, what if we reveal the leaker on day one and then
00:18:28
everyone move Saint addict. I don't know, I don't know what
00:18:31
the strategy is there. It seems like it would stick to
00:18:33
me. We really don't want to draw
00:18:35
this out anymore. We really want people to digest
00:18:37
this as soon as possible. Take out all the mystery so they
00:18:40
can move on with their lives by Tuesday, so it's Mark McGann.
00:18:44
Yeah, barking again, everyone. We are getting closer by the way
00:18:47
to. I don't know if you've just
00:18:49
discuss this on this show, but like we've collected quite a few
00:18:52
whistleblowers over the last few years that I would watch that
00:18:55
reality show of like whistleblower house where we
00:18:58
just kind of like the World, the original MTV's, Real World, we
00:19:01
put them on an apartment together in New York City.
00:19:05
We got a West Village townhouse and they start to get real.
00:19:09
I don't think it could be in New York because of Snowden so we'd
00:19:12
have to do it in Russia. That's really cold Mountain cow
00:19:16
real world Moscow. But yeah, you get you get
00:19:19
Snowden and you get Francis heylighen, you get Mark began.
00:19:24
I think the other like, I don't think that's I mean maybe maybe
00:19:27
Snowden and Manning or just from a Different era, maybe it's
00:19:30
really just McGann. I'm not to be moved on again.
00:19:35
Mark me, guess not your McGann. Francis how again and they can
00:19:41
just be on an island together. Somewhere talking crypto, have a
00:19:46
baby that we pair it with survivor of the ACT actually
00:19:50
hunt their own on thrown him down their own meals.
00:19:53
Hmm. Create potable water.
00:19:55
Yeah, or like I wonder if they end up just blowing whistle on
00:19:57
each other the whole time and let people in.
00:19:59
I mean, the producers of like all my misdeeds at the others
00:20:02
are doing well, sometimes our reality TV is, right, there's no
00:20:06
special to draw movie extreme. He's so good at it.
00:20:09
Yeah. Hey, Buffy survivors for sure.
00:20:11
I worry people are going to take the wrong message for this that
00:20:14
we do not value whistleblowers as report we absolutely value.
00:20:17
We do I I genuinely think that they are heroes.
00:20:20
I do this is more of a conversation about like whistle
00:20:23
blowing and fame I think and if you want to really be the most
00:20:26
famous whistleblower, you have to combine it with the popcorn.
00:20:29
Culture phenomenon, that is created more Fame for more
00:20:32
everyday people, which is reality television, right?
00:20:35
I mean dick, one of these people could become president if
00:20:37
they're on reality TV. What is this?
00:20:39
Is like, you're like, you're like a powerful medium, right?
00:20:42
Yeah, I think we've talked on the show about how
00:20:44
whistleblowers are and, I mean, again, I don't mean to be
00:20:47
cynical about it. Is another version of being an
00:20:49
influencer, right? Especially when you're going
00:20:51
forward, I made me very uncomfortable.
00:20:54
Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I yeah, I get I feel
00:20:59
kind of That is were making fun of these people from a celebrity
00:21:02
perspective. I do think their access is
00:21:05
incredibly heroic not making fun of them.
00:21:07
We are making fun of the circle of life that has been created
00:21:10
around the active whistle blowing.
00:21:12
Yeah, did not examine the life that exists Beyond just the
00:21:14
story, right? That, this is really kind of
00:21:16
like, isn't it really sort of somewhat of like a 20/20 18
00:21:20
post, 2018 phenomenon? You know I mean it was like up
00:21:24
until up until that Ukraine will sell blower phenomenon.
00:21:28
I don't think people like Blowing, the whistle then jumped
00:21:31
in front of the camera, like, I think that's different, right?
00:21:34
Well, I mean Snowden is the obvious one.
00:21:36
Yeah, she's right. I mean, he and then that was the
00:21:39
documentary. Yeah, that was a big reveal and
00:21:42
he'd work closely with, you know, Greenwald and Laura
00:21:45
poitras. My favorite part of the
00:21:47
documentary is when he's hiding under the blankets on this
00:21:49
computer. Uh-huh.
00:21:51
As I say, that was an incredibly claustrophobic documentary, just
00:21:54
imagine all the time that they spent in that hotel room
00:21:56
together, knowing that if they ever went downstairs, it could
00:21:59
be a A nightmare. I'm still like slightly anxious
00:22:03
thinking about all of those cameras and Snowden just sitting
00:22:06
in that room together, like waiting for the story to go up,
00:22:09
there's a great documentary, that was really in some ways
00:22:11
like the high Watermark of so many things.
00:22:15
But, without naming names of many, many people, well, no, I
00:22:18
don't even think about that. The people involved just, like
00:22:21
sort of the high Watermark of like, people trusting
00:22:24
journalist, right? People failing like You know be
00:22:29
crew feels like that. Led to change like to change in
00:22:33
government you know feeling of accountability.
00:22:35
You think also the revelations themselves eroded people's trust
00:22:39
in government to a point that it just felt like any sort of
00:22:43
repair of the system was beyond the scope of tickets.
00:22:46
An interesting question thought of it.
00:22:48
That way, you know, because I feel we were just at this moment
00:22:51
of Maximum like, give us your data, everyone wants to share
00:22:55
data, and I've always thought of it as Snowden like you know.
00:23:00
So his and the information you shared having sort of this dual
00:23:04
consequent until set of consequences.
00:23:06
One being okay. There's something wrong with
00:23:08
government that needs to be addressed.
00:23:10
But the other being a woman, by the way, do you as a consumer
00:23:14
just want to like throw your data out, willy-nilly liked it,
00:23:17
should there be some seat belt on that?
00:23:18
And I think it sort of put the brakes on, tech companies that
00:23:21
were really pushing this idea. That's very Mark, Zuckerberg
00:23:23
idea that human beings would soon like not really want
00:23:26
privacy or care about At all ever ever again.
00:23:30
And so I felt like I've always thought about it through that
00:23:32
lens. I've never really thought about.
00:23:34
It was a sort of like the postmodern project destroying
00:23:36
faith and institution. I don't think it'll be enough
00:23:39
maybe, but maybe yeah. But maybe that was just sort of,
00:23:42
like, one of the one of the knock-on effects, right?
00:23:46
And I mean, like when you're pulling back the screen that
00:23:48
much and you really see how rotting the system that your
00:23:53
whistle blowing on has become, you kind of Wonder, I mean, I
00:23:57
think they They come at it from a good place which is like this
00:23:59
can be repaired and like, you know, Francis Hogan's her
00:24:03
perspective. Supposedly was that she's like
00:24:05
so long like Facebook can be fixed.
00:24:07
If we get rid of Mark Zuckerberg and he's the problem here and
00:24:11
right, you know, whatever that is what it is.
00:24:14
But I you know, I think as these people are coming forward and
00:24:18
leaking the documents they think like they're improving the place
00:24:21
that they worked at or the country they live in or
00:24:23
something like that. And it just seems like the
00:24:25
effect is mostly been people read the stories.
00:24:27
They're right Leo. If I'd buy it and they're like,
00:24:29
man, it seems like everything fucking sucks.
00:24:31
It sounds like everything's broken, isn't it bad enough?
00:24:35
That just the Zeitgeist, right? How much, how much can really be
00:24:38
done about that, right? And that's so, like, so the Uber
00:24:43
thing maybe to finish that up, like that's kind of, especially
00:24:45
when you're leaking documents about a period that is long past
00:24:49
for a company who is at a kind of weak point as a business, you
00:24:54
know, like they're not really at a position of strength and we
00:24:57
knew a lot of the Galatians. It's really hard to know what to
00:25:00
make of any of these things. It's like company that many
00:25:02
people had already decided, was bad.
00:25:05
Is still bad. Or was bad.
00:25:06
Was what that, right? Well, that's yeah.
00:25:09
Anyway, we should save the Deep. Yeah, we're heading to deep into
00:25:13
newcomer territory. We gotta move on to down rounds,
00:25:15
which also I mean that's a very newcomer adjacent tooth will
00:25:18
have to tread carefully but I don't mind I don't mind.
00:25:21
So yeah, that's the other thing on there.
00:25:24
His decision to make ticket variation beats you down with a
00:25:27
wire hanger. I'm just gonna say I told you so
00:25:30
cause of death talking about genres, so fucking sad magic.
00:25:37
Yeah. You're talking about karna, the
00:25:40
fintech companies pay me in, but please, no Clara.
00:25:45
De carne is just a placeholder for any company but can judge Ya
00:25:48
Down rounds, are you know, it's definitely.
00:25:50
No one's heard of karna. You know, people in.
00:25:54
Where is it? Sweden.
00:25:55
I think it was like one Sweden's.
00:25:57
Or Europe's Most Valuable privately, I think just fin tech
00:26:01
company, fin tech company. You know, they raise 100
00:26:05
million. It's a Down Round, major major
00:26:09
down round. They were at 46 billion June 20
00:26:12
21 now down to six point seven billion.
00:26:14
I mean, that should pretty sure. Yeah, that's crazy.
00:26:16
That's a good one. That's a good one.
00:26:19
As like, shocking down rounds, go, I'm going to put them up in
00:26:24
in a top-ten single cell, but maybe lost some money on that.
00:26:28
Dollar the employees. Don't worry.
00:26:30
Yeah. Right.
00:26:31
No one important as far as the investors are concerned.
00:26:34
But yeah, I don't know. I mean Sequoia which is like the
00:26:40
Doomsday prophecies are of the valley put out a presentation, a
00:26:45
couple months ago. Basically saying, you know, get
00:26:48
ready for the bad times. Again, they love doing that.
00:26:50
They're famous for the rmp, good times, presentation of the times
00:26:54
got really good. So maybe it was our IP good
00:26:57
time. Because we're going to go into
00:26:58
great times, right? Exactly yeah, I didn't dot dot
00:27:02
dot. They don't read the whole way
00:27:05
through the presentation. You guys all get sad slide
00:27:10
right? We're about to completely fuck
00:27:12
up the San Francisco real estate market descriptive.
00:27:15
Rooms going to be pretty good. Yeah.
00:27:17
And then you're going to buy a house in Portugal.
00:27:20
Yeah, right. All right be good times the
00:27:22
great times as we're going to have a Trader Joe's on Market
00:27:24
Street. Say goodbye to the good times.
00:27:27
Yeah, they are. There are so ripped the think
00:27:30
it's good times, but I mean like it's a reality from covering the
00:27:33
space, you know, every company has been given that very firm
00:27:37
directive that they have to make money, which is sad and sad.
00:27:44
Think about that. The initial directive is not to
00:27:45
make money. It's to grow different thing,
00:27:48
right? So there's always a surprise.
00:27:50
I think to the company's when somebody from outside says, okay
00:27:55
we take it back. Yeah, just make money.
00:27:58
Yeah. And I think maybe that more than
00:28:00
anything is what has caused people to, you know, if there is
00:28:03
like a lassitude or like moroseness about the tech World
00:28:07
these days, I do think like that, the business models have
00:28:10
to become rational is really fucking depressing because
00:28:15
making money isn't fun. People have been doing that for
00:28:17
hundreds of years and they never seem to have fun doing it.
00:28:20
Yeah. So this is where I like the
00:28:22
dearth of Joy, the dearth of ideas and the dearth of money.
00:28:24
All kind of come together in one neat package.
00:28:27
Yeah, And we don't know, like, we talked about that with Rick
00:28:30
heitzman a couple months back, like, you know, for the VC
00:28:34
perspective, they're having, you know, that they've got to tell
00:28:39
their companies. Some of you are going to die and
00:28:41
we're not going to save you. And that's not very fun.
00:28:44
That doesn't sound like a moon shot.
00:28:45
No. But it's also like I think the
00:28:48
reason why we're not getting the sort of big downturn that
00:28:51
Sequoia had predicted and and was warning people about is also
00:28:56
the reality that none of these companies not none that still
00:29:00
very few of these companies. Even from like the 2015, 2016
00:29:05
boom have gone public. And so as long as they're all
00:29:09
privately, held the good times end when the private investors
00:29:14
won't play ball anymore. And since every company goes out
00:29:16
to the market, to raise money at different times.
00:29:18
And they do it, privately and quietly, and hopefully secretly.
00:29:21
You don't kind of see that money rush out like it did in the late
00:29:24
90s, where public shareholders were like weird.
00:29:27
Being you and we're putting all of our money into bonds or
00:29:30
whatever. And so it creates this like huge
00:29:33
public dramatic Rush of funding out of the industry.
00:29:37
That looks really terrible. Instead, you just see it in
00:29:39
these dribs and drabs on a semi consistent basis, but it doesn't
00:29:43
have the same kind of like, terrifying umph.
00:29:46
So you can still if you want. I mean you can still delude
00:29:48
yourself and say, like the good times are here and I'm going to
00:29:52
gamble with them. You could say argue that.
00:29:54
That's somewhat. What the crypto.
00:29:55
Boom was the post. R.i.p.
00:29:57
Good. Times presentation crypto.
00:29:59
But you could argue that, maybe that's what it was.
00:30:02
But yes. So also, I think that things
00:30:05
like these down rounds are kind of symbolic of the fact that
00:30:09
these companies did not go public and probably that's a
00:30:13
good thing. Yeah, really great.
00:30:15
Right liability. Yeah and probably best not to be
00:30:18
public in tank. The economy writ large.
00:30:21
Yeah I mean when I said that big that big lake collapse that
00:30:25
we're all looking for. I don't think we're actually
00:30:27
very good. Big collapse that were bracing
00:30:29
for, I think would be more accurate, which, which may be to
00:30:32
say, way to like the last thing that explains this era and the
00:30:37
thing that I am so amazed and amused by that you have followed
00:30:41
almost not at all in the really tridents that really tried to
00:30:45
avoid up his elom. It's my I'm supposed to be on
00:30:48
vacation, I'm working every day. So this is how I am getting a
00:30:52
vacation in Tha just by not reading about really cool shit.
00:30:56
Yeah, avoiding Eli. On it.
00:30:58
Just just that has like really it's the I live in a condo in
00:31:02
the world. Do you want me to explain to you
00:31:03
what happened? Last please do please do so on
00:31:07
Friday. The hammer finally fell.
00:31:10
Well actually no. Let me let me back up a little
00:31:12
bit on Thursday, the Washington Post.
00:31:13
Ran a story saying that Elon was no longer engaging with his
00:31:17
financial advisors or something involved at the deal.
00:31:20
And the deal was in Jeopardy and he was bringing up the fact that
00:31:23
he wasn't getting. This is the story wasn't getting
00:31:25
all the data that he felt he needed to prove.
00:31:28
Twitter doesn't have a bot, which is such a great argument
00:31:30
because it's like, it's like if I said to you Tom I want data on
00:31:35
your secret second child and you're like, but I don't have a
00:31:37
secret second child and I was like Tom, we're not doing this
00:31:40
deal until I get data on your secret.
00:31:42
Second child and your secret second wife like but I don't
00:31:47
have a secret second wife. Well, this deals over.
00:31:50
All right. That's the beauty of this, you
00:31:53
know, I love it so much. It goes so many layer.
00:31:56
I get you don't want to read about it.
00:31:57
It. But, but it goes so many layers,
00:32:01
deep. Because if you can recall at the
00:32:03
origins of the deal, one of elon's promises and becoming the
00:32:06
owner of Twitter is that he was going to fix the bot problem.
00:32:08
Absolutely. And so, he's basically just been
00:32:11
looking for an out when it was clear, that he overpaid for a
00:32:14
company as the market collapsed and Tesla stock collapsed.
00:32:17
And I'm assuming he was close to getting margin called on the
00:32:22
loans that he was taking out against his Tesla shares.
00:32:25
So it was looking like a worse and worse.
00:32:27
Deal. Everyone was kind of I don't
00:32:29
know wondering how he was going to, How You Gonna wriggle out of
00:32:31
this one and then on Friday. Yeah, there's pretty simple.
00:32:36
I bet that's what I do. I'm the, I'm the rig a lot of
00:32:38
things that guy. You used to think of me as the
00:32:40
Innovation guy but now I'm just the wriggle out of shit guy,
00:32:43
which is also very cool. We're out of ideas, the out of
00:32:47
money, we will get to that, we will get to that.
00:32:50
Okay, that is very true. I think that is a perfect
00:32:52
encapsulation of our, maybe our country at this point but so I
00:32:57
day, he files a letter with her. His lawyers fires a letter with
00:33:01
the SEC saying deal's off. I no longer want to be the
00:33:05
Twitter owner because because of the Bots is the Bots that are
00:33:14
the problem. I really want to make a t-shirt
00:33:16
that says, I no longer want to be the Twitter owner.
00:33:19
Yeah. If you would do it, he would
00:33:21
wear it. Because it's just, I mean,
00:33:23
that's all of us, kind of, right?
00:33:24
Yeah. Well, I don't want to be the
00:33:25
Twitter user, but I'm required to be.
00:33:29
Did you read the story about the reporter that says they don't
00:33:31
read the news anymore? Oh, it's funny enough.
00:33:35
I haven't read that either. So Ilan said, will reload vacuum
00:33:52
that made me really happy. Continue sir.
00:33:56
Okay, so Elon says he's backing out of the deal a couple hours
00:34:00
later. Bret Taylor, who is the chairman
00:34:02
of Twitter tweets out. We at Twitter, think you are
00:34:05
full of shit, and we will sue you to make sure that the deal
00:34:09
goes through all the way citing, there's this one is able to
00:34:12
specific performance clause in the contract, which basically
00:34:15
means that they can see you in Chancery Court along as a sink.
00:34:18
Example of the coarsening of the discourse of don't like it
00:34:21
continued. Yeah, no.
00:34:22
You don't want Chairman's. Talking about Chancery things.
00:34:25
Are things are in a bad place as a company when you're having to
00:34:27
like call Mom at the Chancery Court to fix things for you.
00:34:31
So anyway so then Elon he thinks he's got a real Ace in the Hole
00:34:35
because of this Bots thing. Twitter is going to take him to
00:34:38
court. They've lawyer dup.
00:34:39
Ilan has got Skadden Arps on his side and Twitter is got I don't
00:34:45
remember some other, you know, lock tell Lipton.
00:34:47
I think it's real battle of the white-shoe law firms, right?
00:34:51
But I guess the question throughout all of this is this
00:34:54
really Over long tired episode just keeps dragging on.
00:34:58
Is that why are we? And I guess I could talk about
00:35:01
this episode, this episode? No continue.
00:35:05
Sorry. Yeah.
00:35:06
Why are we why do we care about this?
00:35:10
Well, whatever it is like, I as an as an emblem, there's nothing
00:35:14
better than Twitter. It was this, their Twitter was
00:35:18
supposed to World. Peace, was going to flow from at
00:35:21
peace in the Middle East specifically.
00:35:23
I think there's quite a democracy in China To they
00:35:25
constantly being there is going to be payback for the lunatics
00:35:30
who murdered you know who murdered half the staff of
00:35:32
Charlie hebdo' Twitter was this huge phenomenon.
00:35:35
It was a part was going to be part of the state department was
00:35:39
like it was just so this was like the most high flying part
00:35:43
of the of the tech boom. And like the social media, boom
00:35:46
was in so many ways to Twitter and now it's like nobody wants
00:35:50
to own it. Not even ship company.
00:35:52
Not even this. Don't want stick?
00:35:54
No, no, no wants to. I run it, nobody wants to run
00:35:57
it, people are going to go to court over who, who has to have
00:36:01
it? Yeah.
00:36:01
Ring, right. We're going to fight you to not
00:36:04
have this yet. It's the most depressing, like
00:36:06
family court trial of all time. And then you have Elon Musk, you
00:36:13
should probably be like a divorce settlement.
00:36:14
We're like Eli. Do you like better?
00:36:16
That's the end of my family feud.
00:36:18
No, no, no. It should be like a divorce
00:36:20
court. They like Elon owns twittering
00:36:22
on like weekends and like, every third week of the month
00:36:25
Wednesday, it is. Yeah, holidays.
00:36:28
It gets like a month. Immuno a month, a year and like
00:36:30
one of iman's compounds and then like, you know, Twitter's
00:36:34
boredoms at the rest of the time and likely, nah, finds a new
00:36:37
husband Twitter, hates being with Ilana.
00:36:39
On holidays because it's to fight for attention with all of
00:36:41
us actual children. Just like that through an
00:36:44
increasingly crowded and unfriendly household, tell.
00:36:48
But but other, what else is beautiful?
00:36:49
Use of Twitter was drizzles defining, social media, darling
00:36:53
of the of the big Tech era, no options left and then you have
00:36:57
Ilan who was supposed to be the big Genius of the industry.
00:37:00
He was Tony Stark, he was the cool one, he was the person who
00:37:04
was just a font of ideas, he's got nothin, except for except
00:37:07
for box. Exactly.
00:37:09
Robots. Grunts it right?
00:37:11
That's all you got. Yeah.
00:37:12
This it's it is it is really depressing if you think about
00:37:15
it, because I do think, like, a nation's lonely eyes turned up
00:37:19
toward Ilan as like The Innovation Factory.
00:37:22
You know, like he did the Rockets thing, which I always
00:37:24
thought was like 80% overrated, but at least it's a thing, you
00:37:28
know, Nick, those are pretty cool rocket.
00:37:30
Sounds like, and the electric cars.
00:37:32
Yeah. Debatable as to like, its
00:37:34
overall environmental impact. But yes, it's new.
00:37:38
That's the new thing. Yeah.
00:37:40
Yeah I don't know. It all started to feel very
00:37:42
rickety to me in terms of what he actually had in store when he
00:37:46
was raising the financing for it.
00:37:48
And the New York Times and a bunch of other outlets reported
00:37:50
like what he was promising for Twitter and it was so realistic.
00:37:55
It is like a billion users in three years and in billions in
00:37:59
profits and just all the stuff that he had no actual plan for
00:38:03
really other than, like, putting Trump back on Twitter and like,
00:38:08
you know, I don't know allowing every girl an image ever to you
00:38:13
know I mean he had he had not thought it through and we've
00:38:15
already let the beheadings flow. Yeah I got is this in some ways?
00:38:19
Robert Denney Juniors fault because imagine if Tony Stark
00:38:22
you've been played by somebody. Less cool.
00:38:24
Right. Less cool.
00:38:26
So Tony Stark been played by like the guy from Guardians of
00:38:28
the Galaxy. Yeah, thank you, right?
00:38:32
Right there. So like a song kind of Christian
00:38:35
City. Tony Stark would what Elon Musk?
00:38:39
Gotten that kind of residual glow up.
00:38:41
I don't think so. No, I don't know.
00:38:43
Thought he was like a religious zealot but yeah.
00:38:46
Or what? If it were like Paul Giamatti?
00:38:48
Who is cooler than Robert Downey jr.
00:38:50
But like maybe closer to the actual wow.
00:38:54
Yeah, exactly. What if have been Paul Giamatti
00:38:57
playing Tony Stark and not like some Paul Giamatti who's gone to
00:39:00
the gym and gotten a personal trainer and does a superhero
00:39:02
Thing? No.
00:39:04
But Paul Giamatti circle like that movie about wine?
00:39:07
Yes. Sideways called Giamatti.
00:39:09
Thank you sideways. Paul Giamatti plays, Tony Stark.
00:39:12
We would not have the Elan problem we have today.
00:39:15
All right, just fucking great. Yeah, it it he clearly believes
00:39:22
in his social or he's media representation his own
00:39:26
celebrity. And the fact that he is
00:39:28
constantly being, you know, built up by a legion of hooting
00:39:32
sycophants on Twitter who I think.
00:39:35
Maybe he now realized 80% of them are Bots.
00:39:39
Maybe that's why he's upset. Well, what's also great, is that
00:39:42
as Twitter, declines as a platform, his sick offense, will
00:39:46
need a new platform in order to get the word out.
00:39:49
And they've already decided that mainstream media is not the
00:39:53
place for them, so that's not going to happen.
00:39:56
Twitter, just feels like somewhat of a Dying platform.
00:39:58
True. Social hasn't really gone off
00:40:00
the ground yet. Doesn't seem so, we're, where
00:40:03
will they go? I don't think they know.
00:40:05
I mean, if anything is the special tears of what Absolutely
00:40:10
right. Yeah, that would be great.
00:40:12
Well, that was like, you know, after the electromagnetic pulse
00:40:14
like destroys all technology on Earth and then those who were
00:40:18
ready for. Yes, just basically.
00:40:20
Paul Giamatti handing out leaflets just bawled told you
00:40:23
about. He is the town crier and every
00:40:26
it every city around the country that would be great.
00:40:30
No, I think, what's what? I find so revelatory about this
00:40:35
episode, not this episode, the Twitter episode Is that there is
00:40:44
no good outcome here for either party.
00:40:47
Nothing good will happen. I mean, Elon will maybe get by
00:40:50
having only only to pay like, a couple billion dollars Twitter,
00:40:53
which is go on being at sad self as a company, and Ilan has like,
00:40:57
such a preview for the Democratic primary continue.
00:40:59
Yeah, exactly. There's no good outcome.
00:41:01
And everyone is just, you know, disaffected, and we're covering
00:41:05
it as the train wreck that it's always been.
00:41:08
But also with The realization that there's nothing else there
00:41:12
that it, that it, that it, we've descended purely into the
00:41:14
spectacle and, you know, entertainment of collapse when
00:41:20
the promise of it is so far in the rearview mirror.
00:41:22
No one even discussed and because we can't say the thing
00:41:26
that is so Apparent from this Fiasco, which is that, you know,
00:41:30
we actually can live without social media.
00:41:33
We can't we can kind of just live without it right actually
00:41:36
that essential. Yeah, and the people that can't
00:41:38
live without it or the one. That one at the most and and are
00:41:42
willing to pay for it. But apparently not as my basic.
00:41:44
I'm saying, Elon can't live without social media and and so
00:41:48
he's now stuck, you know getting too close to the thing that he
00:41:51
thought he wanted. I think the only positive
00:41:53
outcome that I could see with this is that Elon owns it at a
00:41:57
lower price. That's the only thing that would
00:41:58
be good to me. I still want them to own it.
00:42:01
Yeah, I mean I mean obviously you know why I want him to own
00:42:04
it so you could be right once I can be right because I said he
00:42:06
was going to but two because I think it will hasten.
00:42:09
Ian, again, winding of the Twitter experiment.
00:42:12
Hmm, some experiments I don't want me around like I would love
00:42:15
for the Democratic experiment that we have engaged in for more
00:42:19
than 200 years. Here, the United States to
00:42:21
continue on. That is my deepest wish.
00:42:23
But you know, that the Twitter experiment.
00:42:25
Yeah, I think it. I think that's okay.
00:42:26
If that one comes to an end. Yeah, it actually might help
00:42:30
this, the, the latter experiment.
00:42:32
But it's just, yeah, clearly, we can't exist with both.
00:42:36
She and, I think we, as a country are having to make the
00:42:38
tough decision of What do we want to see persist into the
00:42:42
next, you know, decade or Century the American Democratic
00:42:45
experience or social media and Twitter?
00:42:49
And that's a very that's very binary.
00:42:50
We're going to take that one up with Eric.
00:42:52
See you? He thinks yeah.
00:42:54
After he does a careful check of this episode and edits out any
00:42:57
mentions of uber that go too far into newcomer territory, right?
00:43:01
So with that, you know, we're will sign off for this episode
00:43:04
as the plottings text cycle. Continues onward new Come.
00:43:09
We'll be back in a couple weeks. We will dive deep into the Uber
00:43:13
files which maybe people remember in a couple weeks maybe
00:43:16
they won't. Maybe people have read a couple
00:43:18
weeks. Maybe.
00:43:19
Yeah. That's right.
00:43:19
Take take some time during your vacation to read.
00:43:21
The Uber files. Check back in with us and we'll
00:43:24
have a lot to say about it but until then, thanks Katie.
00:43:28
All right, dog days of summer. Episode part.
00:43:29
One is in the can. All right, we did it.
00:43:45
Goodbye. Goodbye.
00:43:46
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. Goodbye.