Insider’s anonymous first-person account of a ghostwriter for venture capitalists’ tweets captivated tech Twitter last week. Everyone wanted to know who exactly was paying $100,000 for a tweetstorm.
How could anyone make $200,000 writing thought leadership. Why would anyone pay for that?
So on this week’s episode of Dead Cat, hosts Eric Newcomer and Tom Dotan talked with Redpoint Ventures managing director Logan Bartlett who is a bit of a VC Twitter expert. Last November, Eric wrote about Bartlett's analysis of VC media output in a piece called A Twitter Troll’s Take on the Future of Investing.
Since then, Redpoint hired a TikTok creator to help bolster the firm’s brand and Bartlett launched a podcast called Cartoon Avatars.
On this week’s episode of Dead Cat, Bartlett insists he’s writing his own tweets, but he explains why VCs are so interested in building a Twitter following. Also Bartlett cast doubt on whether there’s a real market for people ghostwriting tweets for VCs.
Later in the episode, we spitballed a ranking of some of the most important accounts on VC Twitter.
Give it a listen.
Get full access to Newcomer at www.newcomer.co/subscribe
00:00:05
Welcome. So what kind of salad?
00:00:12
Hey, it's Eric newcomer, welcome to dead cat.
00:00:15
Tom do it on? Is here, we've got Logan,
00:00:17
Bartlett VC. But more importantly a rival.
00:00:21
Podcaster, what your Cartoon Avatar?
00:00:25
I also profiled him a while ago. Sting is it a zero-sum game?
00:00:30
It's a rising tide lifts All Ships here.
00:00:32
That's true. But I used to promotion, to t.j.
00:00:34
to have enemies than friends, right?
00:00:35
I mean, I feel like few, you know what cartoon avatars is
00:00:38
your enemy. It's very clear what our enemy
00:00:40
can be, you're going after the wrong and wrong to be see how
00:00:43
we're competitors in both the. We would like to be a foil to
00:00:46
all in know. Yeah, exactly the modestly
00:00:50
successful like, you know, up-and-coming, VC, trying to get
00:00:54
by versus the self-proclaimed billionaires that are all
00:00:57
navel-gazing, which one makes it better for Oh, I don't know.
00:01:00
We can say at this podcast currently there is zero people
00:01:03
that appeared in Elon Musk text messages so far as I can tell.
00:01:06
Yeah, yeah, exactly. How long have you been at
00:01:09
cartoon avatars, by the way, beginning of February.
00:01:12
So originally actually, I give those guys a lot of credit in
00:01:15
the impetus for doing it. And so it was last fall probably
00:01:21
a year ago that the market was super crazy and I was seeing the
00:01:24
success that they were having. And obviously they do a good job
00:01:26
with one type of content, right? And one I mean, they all had
00:01:30
different voices but so you're saying all in all in.
00:01:33
Yeah. And so I thought, originally
00:01:35
that I could be a foil to that in some ways and so it was
00:01:39
actually, like originally trying to recreate elements of what
00:01:41
they did, but maybe a little bit more relatable to the non
00:01:45
billionaire class, but the format has evolved.
00:01:48
Originally, I to other people doing it with me.
00:01:50
Well, you at Nikita, who now has like, viral apps success.
00:01:53
Right. What's it called?
00:01:54
It's crazy. Yes, what you have gas?
00:01:58
Is it doing well? That was number one on the app.
00:02:00
Yeah, it's like a dating type thing or to be honest, I do not
00:02:04
know there's bad blood x. No, no, guys, host you're done.
00:02:09
No, I'm trying to get him to come back on.
00:02:11
We're still buddies. But what actually happened was,
00:02:13
he was starting this company and he got distracted with, you
00:02:16
know, actually doing his day job.
00:02:17
So it kind of evolved to just me and then just me plus sack
00:02:20
Weinberg. And so we've been in our current
00:02:22
iteration ish, probably since April, I would say.
00:02:25
So I don't know how you score it.
00:02:27
Yeah. All right.
00:02:28
Well, we're here today. This is a fun episode, so I want
00:02:31
to just sort of shoot the shit but Insider wrote, what would
00:02:35
you call it? Like an explosive story
00:02:37
headline. I made two hundred thousand
00:02:40
dollars last year. Ghost.
00:02:41
Writing tweets for Superstar VCS, it takes me 5 hours a week.
00:02:46
Here's how I found my clients and built a booming side, hustle
00:02:49
from scratch and it's basically sort of adds told to story of
00:02:54
someone they claim they got like a hundred thousand dollars.
00:03:00
River Tweed storming like a big funding round.
00:03:02
I mean, just a ton of money and it's definitely traveling the VC
00:03:06
world because, you know, it fits into this whole sort of, I don't
00:03:09
know, VC's as content, marketers as sort of celebrities thing VC
00:03:14
says influencers. Right?
00:03:15
Right. I mean, it was like a big story
00:03:17
three or four years ago in your an influencer, right?
00:03:19
That's right. Yeah.
00:03:20
Logan understands this I'm just trying to subtly shape people
00:03:23
into my World Views one Twitter post at a time.
00:03:26
Yeah you know it was interesting people have been poking around
00:03:28
at this story for a little while.
00:03:29
I'll add a Washington Post reporter reach out to me like
00:03:32
three months ago and they were like I heard, you're someone, I
00:03:35
should talk to about this and about specifically the paid for
00:03:39
tweets issue. I couldn't tell like what their
00:03:42
angle was if they were trying to get me to say that I pay for
00:03:45
tweets or something. Yeah.
00:03:47
And so I got on the phone with her and I was like, listen, if
00:03:50
someone saying that, let's be very clear.
00:03:53
No, I am not doing that, I'll hundred percent.
00:03:56
If you're going to run that, I am going to like, get on a bully
00:03:58
pulpit and call you Al Her, you're gonna see me go fake news
00:04:01
on. This, was that the claim that
00:04:03
they came out? No, no, just like, oh, you're
00:04:06
one of those annoying, VCS on Twitter and you might be a great
00:04:08
person to enter that. We was more like you would have
00:04:11
an opinion about this. I think was her angle, but I was
00:04:14
immediately, like, if someone is selling my name, like the
00:04:17
originality is of my tweets. I will come for them, right?
00:04:20
So, I immediately got defensive because I knew that this article
00:04:24
one. Listen, it's logical that people
00:04:27
are doing this right in a very high level.
00:04:29
Hey, Is there a opportunity in Arbitrage that exists from very
00:04:34
well paid people that maybe don't have a lot of time or
00:04:38
don't have a lot of creativity to come up with stuff like this
00:04:41
and then very creative people that have lots of time and don't
00:04:45
have a lot of money. Like is there an Arbitrage
00:04:47
opportunity that exists there? Yes, my criticism with this
00:04:50
article is not that. It's not happening because I
00:04:54
have to think it is right. You know.
00:04:56
I don't want to undermine Business Insider's reporting.
00:04:58
It seems like they have And stamps and, you know, wire
00:05:01
receipts and all that. There were enough little details
00:05:04
in this story that just like, didn't ring true to me that I'm
00:05:09
not, and we can go through and talk about some of the specific
00:05:12
one. Like, yeah, let's deconstruct
00:05:13
it. By the way, I had nothing to do
00:05:14
with this story. So I feel confident in being
00:05:17
able to read this article, I'll leave commentary.
00:05:20
That's critical to you guys. Well, to be fair like insiders
00:05:23
defense, right? It's an As Told to, right?
00:05:26
It's a zoo. So like a bit, you know, Insider
00:05:28
validated the Is identity, right?
00:05:31
They validated some form of wire, receipts.
00:05:33
And so I think there's enough of a story there or that, that
00:05:37
alone is interesting, right? This whole thing is interesting,
00:05:39
just from like a palace Intrigue and you know, whenever we can
00:05:42
talk about all the different things so before we get into
00:05:45
the, did it happen? Exactly like this article lays
00:05:48
out, I just want to touch on why there would be demand for this
00:05:53
in the first place like Logan. I've written a story about you
00:05:56
which I called a Twitter trolls take on the future of investing.
00:05:59
So your son. Who's very clearly in a sort of
00:06:03
Envy speak, even laid out to your El.
00:06:05
Psy like tweeting and podcasting is important to be seized right
00:06:10
now. But yeah, explain that to our
00:06:12
audience. Why would there even be a market
00:06:13
for like, who cares would have EC tweets?
00:06:16
So I think we talked a little bit about this in that article
00:06:19
that you did. But once upon a time, let's say
00:06:22
early 2000. BC was very much a cottage
00:06:25
industry where VC's controlled capital and Founders came to
00:06:29
them. Them looking for access to that
00:06:32
Capital, right? And diligence process has lasted
00:06:35
a long time and entrepreneurs had to jump through hoops.
00:06:39
And ultimately it was only a handful of mostly white men that
00:06:42
sort of controlled the purse strings of, who got funded, and
00:06:45
who didn't write. And then over the course of the
00:06:48
last 20 years, I sort of call that like the broadcast
00:06:50
television days is those were the days in which you know, your
00:06:54
only job is a VC was to be broadly appealing.
00:06:58
So as not to be Two ended not be eliminated from this little boys
00:07:02
club cottage industry, right? And really you needed to suck up
00:07:05
to the other, VCS more than anything because you're great
00:07:08
deal flow from them, it was sort of protected you just wanted a
00:07:12
generic good brand, you know, I mean there was still sort of a
00:07:16
you want to be, you know, you want to have a little bit of
00:07:19
spiciness because it's not banking, you know, it's Venture
00:07:22
but yeah, yeah. But even still like sure, you
00:07:25
hear stories of Sequoia and Kleiner duking it out for like
00:07:27
Google and stuff. But like for the Most part it
00:07:30
was much more collegial and how it operated.
00:07:33
And then I sort of Market 2008. Ish, post-financial crisis
00:07:38
happens to coincide with the Andreessen Horowitz coming up.
00:07:41
Fred Wilson was vlogging in a meaningful way, right?
00:07:43
Like all these Twitter was kind of proliferating as a medium.
00:07:47
This is the cable television. Yeah.
00:07:49
Cable. We're broadcasting cable, right?
00:07:52
Where there's some level of personalization that exists,
00:07:55
right? And so, like, you have funds
00:07:57
that starts focusing on. Oh, we're a growth only.
00:07:59
Find Ray like once upon a time that was not a thing.
00:08:02
But now we're going to only do growth.
00:08:03
There were only going to do fintech or we're only going to
00:08:05
do Healthcare right and VC started to.
00:08:09
I think the Andreessen Horowitz folks did a good job of like
00:08:12
pulling back the veil a little bit in terms of how the industry
00:08:17
operated and you know Ben Horowitz was leading with rap
00:08:20
posts at the beginning of his article right and there was just
00:08:23
a little bit more personality that existed there.
00:08:26
We've had Parker Conrad on the show before and he obviously has
00:08:29
specific a feelings about Andreessen Horowitz.
00:08:31
But his line that stuck with me is that they're basically a
00:08:34
media company with an investment arm attached to it.
00:08:37
Yeah. Parker's the fucking best I had
00:08:39
him on and he went in but you had a great.
00:08:41
Yeah he went into depth about Andreessen Horowitz was an
00:08:44
interesting that episode first. He was our first guests, what
00:08:48
great job interviewing him. And for some reason he decided
00:08:50
to go like full Hit Em Up On David Sachs and then were we
00:08:53
sort of warmed him up. He was a little Paranoid on ours
00:08:56
and then he was like, okay nothing bad happened to me when
00:08:59
I did that. And, you know, you got an even.
00:09:01
That's right. You prime the pump for?
00:09:03
Yeah, exactly. You were my opening act, okay?
00:09:05
Then the next era post-2020 is the streaming are.
00:09:08
Then the next day, right now, as capital got abundant right?
00:09:11
Like you sort of got your infinite choice of what type of
00:09:15
capital you wanted. And if you wanted a fintech,
00:09:17
only early stage fund, that was backed by whatever former has
00:09:22
bananas. It's Avatar.
00:09:24
We are what? Yeah, yeah, you got all your
00:09:26
choices, right. And so we enter the Cartoon
00:09:29
Network are A Avicii, the Cartoon Network area.
00:09:32
I say it's sort of tick-tock personalization, where
00:09:34
everything you like, have your option of like any personalized
00:09:37
feed of capital provider and I think that has been true.
00:09:41
Now with the pullback may be less, and we'll do they that
00:09:44
after that's sort of the next logical.
00:09:46
So, but going into the bubble and I think this like insiders
00:09:50
story about paying for tweets is sort of, you know, it's
00:09:54
reflecting a period that might be ending or might continue, but
00:09:58
sort of at least until the And of, like last year in the first
00:10:01
quarter of this year, this was the streaming Wars idea was like
00:10:04
very much the mood. Yeah.
00:10:07
Where everyone was just trying to cut through the noise, right?
00:10:10
And I said this, Eric when I was talking to you about this, in
00:10:12
the thing we did is like it's better to be Donald Trump than
00:10:15
it is to be Jeb, Bush and Venture.
00:10:18
And it's kind of like this that, you know, even comparing
00:10:20
anything to Donald Trump is polarizing, but we don't live in
00:10:23
a ranked Choice world of venture capital.
00:10:25
It's like to be second is to be a loser, right?
00:10:28
And the same thing. As in the primary process where
00:10:31
if you're going through primaries right?
00:10:33
You want to appeal deeply to as big of a subset of the
00:10:36
population as you can but it's much better to appeal very
00:10:40
deeply to a smaller group than it is to be milquetoast or like
00:10:45
broadly, kind of rice and likable to a broader group,
00:10:48
right? Are you willing to be mean
00:10:50
enough? Do you have the hatred in your
00:10:52
heart? And not like, no.
00:10:53
I'm being sincere though. I mean I feel like there is
00:10:55
almost an incentive to be like Keith and really like fighting
00:10:58
with people on Twitter. Do you always adhere to your own
00:11:01
principle on this or like are you intentionally alienating
00:11:03
subsets of people go to I don't push to the outer end a
00:11:07
polarization right for sure. Like that's just not my
00:11:09
personality but I have pushed the outer end of certain types
00:11:14
of content. For example like I think I was
00:11:17
fucking around on Twitter and playing more of a Stephen
00:11:20
Colbert, ish parody personality. We first interacted you tweeted
00:11:26
a joke like a fake email or something I was sort of Due to
00:11:29
your account and I was like the scold who is like, you know,
00:11:33
half the people consuming this don't realize it's fake and like
00:11:37
that was back in the days where I was like, oh chase down dumb
00:11:39
shit on Twitter or whatever I think you might I forget if you
00:11:42
deleted that or not you were sort of now.
00:11:44
I didn't delete it. And no, come on because I got
00:11:47
scolded by are no Dumber. Come on.
00:11:49
That was like with there are some I mean you want the parody
00:11:53
be to be obvious to a certain percentage of people, right?
00:11:56
Or I don't know this week and yeah that's all day.
00:11:58
Like how many people need to know?
00:11:59
It's Joke for it. To make sense.
00:12:01
Yeah. And like who you're appealing to
00:12:03
and not. But to some extent, there's this
00:12:04
element of people feeling like they're on the end on the joke
00:12:07
and then when it goes outside the bubble of the people that
00:12:09
are in on the joke, it actually makes the joke better to those.
00:12:12
People that role that side right wing troll type but it's very
00:12:15
mean-spirited. That idea that you're happy
00:12:17
about it. Let's zoom in towards the
00:12:18
article and we can debate the higher level stuff after way and
00:12:21
tries. You know, like you're saying.
00:12:23
I think the article capture is a specific point in time.
00:12:25
Maybe one that is ending, but it's absolutely something that I
00:12:29
imagined. CCS recognized at a certain
00:12:31
point, which is like, oh shit, I'm getting attention for this.
00:12:34
I've developed a personality and this may actually have
00:12:37
Downstream effects, beneficial Downstream effects towards deal
00:12:40
flow. And, you know, it seems like
00:12:43
it's just feeding my ego like from the outside if you wouldn't
00:12:45
think about how it could potentially help you in your,
00:12:48
you know, actual day job, you would think, oh, this is just
00:12:50
narcissism and that, you know, the base horrible Instinct that
00:12:53
fuels all of the bullshit on Twitter, but it sounds like
00:12:56
you're saying that there's, you know, real Financial upside to
00:12:59
it. We should you get everyone to
00:13:00
remember, you exist? I mean, as a newsletter writer
00:13:02
it's like if you like everybody returns my texts and emails,
00:13:06
whenever I publish and like similarly I think when you're
00:13:09
tweeting a lot, people are thinking about you more, and you
00:13:11
can feel the inbound come at you.
00:13:13
And so I can imagine from the VCR perspective, it's a lot.
00:13:16
Like the me, I should go look at like the actual report because I
00:13:18
referenced it too many times so I should get my facts right on
00:13:21
this. But there were some study done
00:13:23
right about like people that were shown a list of names of
00:13:27
people like six weeks before, Anna.
00:13:29
Election. And then when the election came
00:13:32
to be, they didn't know any of the candidates.
00:13:34
But just based on the familiarity of having seen those
00:13:36
names before, they're like proclivity to pick those
00:13:40
candidates. And so it's hard to know right?
00:13:43
What you don't see is the negative of it particularly as
00:13:45
you pick a more polarizing view of stuff, right?
00:13:48
And you're like joking around and I've gotten yelled at online
00:13:51
before you don't see how many people are kind of like fuck
00:13:53
this guy right but the advantage of just name recognition and
00:13:57
people knowing you exist in the world.
00:13:59
Olds. I've seen it be super
00:14:01
advantageous for me and just cutting through the noise at an
00:14:04
incremental level. I mean, who am I right?
00:14:07
I'm 34 years old, Finance, background liberal arts school.
00:14:11
Major have never been an operator like have had a decent
00:14:14
investing career experience. But like you know, why would
00:14:16
anyone want to work with me versus?
00:14:19
I don't know. X other person that has had
00:14:21
infinitely more success and infinite more like operating
00:14:24
experience or whatever, right? And if people feel like they
00:14:27
know me a little bit more and they feel like there's a little
00:14:29
bit bit more personality there. I've seen it be effective,
00:14:32
right? And so, I don't know how much to
00:14:34
actually attribute it to this. It's one of these like brand
00:14:37
marketing, how do you even come up with Roi or anything?
00:14:39
But I can tell you anecdotally. It's been impactful.
00:14:42
I mean it's funny Logan that like why VCS and journalists are
00:14:45
at each other's throat. A lot on Twitter when there's
00:14:48
actually very similar impulses and downstream effects to being
00:14:52
obnoxious on Twitter, that maybe that's the reason why they don't
00:14:55
get along. Because in the same way that
00:14:56
capital is a commodity facts are ultimately a Aditi.
00:15:00
Right? We're just trying to gather
00:15:01
facts from people inside companies and when it comes down
00:15:03
to it through the internet, it's all compressed through the same
00:15:06
pipes. And so a big story that comes
00:15:08
out through insider versus the information versus even the
00:15:12
Washington Post. I think the New York Times is
00:15:14
maybe the one that's slightly different, but by and large, you
00:15:16
know, when you push these things through the same place, it's all
00:15:19
the same. And so you kind of got to figure
00:15:21
how can I get these people that have the information to want, to
00:15:23
talk to me, and the outlet, or this tactic that certain
00:15:27
journalists take, which is to be a personality.
00:15:29
He on Twitter, which I had. By the way, don't necessarily
00:15:31
agree with, but this is not an episode about journalists that
00:15:34
was a long subtweet of Ryan Mac by the way, but and you are.
00:15:39
But anyway, I don't tweet that much and I should, sometimes I
00:15:42
should pay somebody. My question is, I mean, do you
00:15:44
know, I like to offer my services to journalists, by the
00:15:46
way, I can be your Ghostwriter number.
00:15:48
Your tweets should be good at tweeting but he doesn't have the
00:15:51
followers to back it up. Or you don't know why I need to
00:15:54
go through other outlets? So journalists come to me.
00:15:56
I will go straight your tweets. I will complain about the New
00:15:59
York Times. Stealing your stories.
00:16:00
I can write those tweets. I can write sweet about 0 as we
00:16:04
previously reported, and then linking to a story that you
00:16:07
didn't write. I can do those.
00:16:08
Yeah, anyway, I'm sure there's a Chinese menu of snarky
00:16:11
journalist tweets dying. Just go to the soundboard and
00:16:14
play the hits of all these things.
00:16:15
Easy, what's the like pricing on?
00:16:18
Like the I feel like the thing that's hardest to believe on the
00:16:21
Insiders Dory is just like how much, you know, two hundred
00:16:23
thousand last year at go straight in I mean I all the
00:16:27
time, can we just get to the story?
00:16:28
Then you want to just read it? We are talking about this area,
00:16:30
what you want to read this, okay?
00:16:32
I was going to read some paragraphs read, Summit, read
00:16:34
some of it. Okay?
00:16:35
So this is just the top here. Ghost writing tweets or venture
00:16:38
capitalist? Is my side hustle.
00:16:40
It's like the opening for Goodfellas.
00:16:41
I like that last year. I made two hundred thousand, so
00:16:43
there's your number are if some VCS will pay you per tweet, I've
00:16:46
done a hundred thousand threads to announce a big funding round.
00:16:49
I've also done a hundred dollar tweets, other VCS pay you per
00:16:52
month for 5 to 10. All right, ten original tweets,
00:16:55
a month and the rate goes up quickly from there.
00:16:58
So like this is right now the financial Or to buy these
00:17:00
numbers. Logan did they sound right to
00:17:01
you from what you've seen in the community.
00:17:03
So we're usually they use a hundred thousand dollars for a
00:17:06
funding round announcement. That's what it sounds like a
00:17:09
thread. Yeah, I don't know.
00:17:11
I like hard for me to say it's one of these things like with
00:17:13
brand Marketing in general, how do you attribute, what anything
00:17:16
is worth? And so, is it possible that
00:17:19
people would be willing to pay for something like this?
00:17:21
Yeah. Totally.
00:17:22
I guess it's totally possible where it sort of broke down for
00:17:25
me is the way this person talks about it.
00:17:27
It makes it seem like it's this very liquid.
00:17:29
Good Market of like, you know, that there's some up work like
00:17:32
site in which people are bidding jobs and, you know, okay, I'll
00:17:36
do this versus that and like this is my card rate for that
00:17:40
kind of thing versus not. And I would think 125 250
00:17:44
clients across all of these different jobs.
00:17:47
Like I would think I would have some idea that this is like
00:17:50
going on or who this person you know that like people are doing
00:17:53
this in Mass. It wouldn't surprise me.
00:17:56
Hey, if an associate at a venture firm we're like, right?
00:17:59
Some tweets, right? Like that's definitely
00:18:01
happening. It wouldn't surprise me if there
00:18:03
was like some comedian or some journalists who was like built a
00:18:07
relationship. Hey, Eric and I have a
00:18:09
relationship and so Eric's writing and occasional like
00:18:12
thought piece for me on Twitter fright.
00:18:14
But like this liquid Market of all these different jobs that
00:18:17
are going on to the point that like the person's able to
00:18:19
consistently Bill five hours a week and two hundred thousand
00:18:23
dollars a year. That's where we're my bullshit
00:18:25
meter on. This was like that just doesn't
00:18:27
feel right to me, right? Or I'm totally obviated from
00:18:31
this going on, which it would seem like something that I would
00:18:33
be aware of, right? If it would seem if there's any
00:18:36
person that I think I would be on a short list of people, that
00:18:38
should know this is going on and I didn't know this was going on.
00:18:41
Everywhere is like podcasting you must get in your DMs all the
00:18:44
time. Like people are like I can build
00:18:46
your podcast like the distribution or there are all
00:18:49
these Hustlers around content products that promise they can
00:18:54
do great stuff for you. But yeah this is what we don't
00:18:56
hear a chat about you. Do here like meme accounts often
00:18:59
I think Talk about how people DM them, like draft, tweet ideas
00:19:03
for them to send out, right? I mean there's a level, like you
00:19:05
get people who just like pitch, you like Logan style tweets, not
00:19:09
random people, but buddies buddies, do all the time.
00:19:12
Probably have three friends. One in particular who will be
00:19:16
like, send me an idea and be like, hey, this is funny.
00:19:19
I can't say this, but is there something we can do about this
00:19:23
yzn? Would you pay me a hundred
00:19:24
thousand for it or yeah. What is there, what he said?
00:19:29
It to me, and he's like, what's all this in?
00:19:31
Kind friendship bullshit, that I've been getting from you of
00:19:34
like us brainstorming ideas. You know, why aren't I getting
00:19:37
hundreds of thousands of dollars from you out of it?
00:19:39
So, I do feel bad, sometimes my friends will say something
00:19:42
clever and a text threatened. It's like, oh yeah, that's a
00:19:44
good idea. Like then he tweeted out you're
00:19:47
like oh, what a genius, you are. I don't know.
00:19:49
I'm probably sort of higher on the level of like, want my
00:19:53
authentic ideas of my Twitter, then some, I don't know if they
00:19:56
send me want to keep going through like the things that
00:19:59
This article said, but I do think it's an interesting thing
00:20:03
of like the desire for authenticity that exists here.
00:20:07
It would feel for some reason like a bait and switch, right?
00:20:10
It's the Twitter Persona of the VCU were following wasn't
00:20:13
actually written by the person right there, right?
00:20:16
That would. But like we don't hold Trevor
00:20:19
Noah to the same. You know.
00:20:21
Like if you're like me started, do like people delude themselves
00:20:24
on, they think of actors, is having said, the line, you know,
00:20:27
like as actors it being there. R quote even though like
00:20:30
somebody else wrote it? Yeah, sure.
00:20:32
Or like a speechwriter. No one's like oh like Obama
00:20:35
wrote. This great speech.
00:20:36
Everyone like is a comfortable with the fact that Jon Favreau
00:20:39
probably wrote like all of the words and Obama just read it but
00:20:42
for some reason this would feel very inauthentic and I'm not
00:20:45
totally sure what that is and why I would feel that way about
00:20:49
it. Like, why some things we accept
00:20:51
like, okay, there's going to be a full team, working and
00:20:53
writing, and all that versus other things were kind of like
00:20:56
it. Maybe it's because it's an
00:20:57
ancillary part of the job rather than a Part of the job.
00:21:00
And so we kind of just feels dirtier that way.
00:21:03
If you're just like grifting on your side part of your job, I
00:21:06
don't know. That feels like a little
00:21:08
weirder, but well, I think it also depends on how much of a
00:21:10
specifically identifiable character.
00:21:12
You have built as your Twitter presence that people would pay
00:21:16
attention, whether it feels authentic or not, right?
00:21:18
Because Trump, we know, while he was on Twitter and I don't have
00:21:21
any idea with truth social, it was always like, oh, he didn't
00:21:23
write this one. Various people like in his orbit
00:21:26
that would write things for him. Whereas, you know, at this point
00:21:28
is like, who that isn't feel like a Keith for boy.
00:21:30
I don't know. Didn't have like the, you know,
00:21:32
the particular bitchiness that he's so good at but that's like
00:21:35
weird. Trump would have the ones that
00:21:36
are obviously, like he's right. And then the ones that were
00:21:39
like, didn't look anything like his.
00:21:41
But there I mean that almost speaks to, you know, he's style
00:21:44
really came through but his fans don't hate.
00:21:46
It is the thing, right? I mean like it's different
00:21:48
because people, you know, are clearly fixated on him but when
00:21:52
there were a couple of tweets that were like clearly not
00:21:54
written by him, people would be like that.
00:21:56
Well that's just Trump being Trump, you know like if there
00:21:58
were a couple of I don't know. Good example, in the VC world
00:22:00
would be who are the top 10 right off the Dome, big hitters
00:22:05
of VC, Twitter and your mind Logan.
00:22:08
Let's go right now. Well, I think Andreessen right
00:22:12
there now he's just changes the status now but whenever he comes
00:22:15
back you know, I don't know. I mean there was like a four
00:22:18
week period where it felt like every week there was some new
00:22:22
topic about it was all related to his tweeting.
00:22:24
So I would be hard-pressed to not read him high on the list.
00:22:27
Absolutely. I mean Keith obviously We've
00:22:29
referenced he has and that is one of the main ones out there.
00:22:34
His brand is just saying, no, yeah, violation.
00:22:39
He gets into fights with random people.
00:22:41
Probably most of them are bought saying, I know more about this
00:22:44
topic than you'll know about anything your whole life or
00:22:46
whatever. Yeah, yeah, I love it.
00:22:48
I love it. Yeah, he's excellent.
00:22:49
Honestly, I've talked to him about that.
00:22:51
We did interview on the podcast with him and one of the things
00:22:53
he said was like a lot of the stuff he learned, it was like PR
00:22:57
stuff. He employed at Square.
00:23:00
Of Psych. Hey, and this is just a
00:23:02
statement about the social apps as well as Humanity probably use
00:23:06
like engaging in good. Faith discussion is just such a
00:23:09
losing battle. I'm saying wrong saying, wrong
00:23:12
or late? You're a moron right?
00:23:14
Is like, how does someone come back from that, right?
00:23:17
So he's like, I just kind of learned, that's the better way
00:23:20
of approaching these, which is just like a such a thing in of
00:23:23
America and realpolitik. Yeah, Because we all kind of
00:23:30
know where morons and so when you call them out is that
00:23:32
because we often haven't spent the time to fully understand
00:23:35
what we're writing that when someone's like no you're just
00:23:37
wrong. You're like, oh shit, I probably
00:23:39
am. So it's a smart move on his part
00:23:41
and then you want to come back though because your job is
00:23:44
rooted, in fact, right? In like actually having
00:23:47
substance to back things up and then you're coming back with
00:23:49
like no Keith. Here's the three rings and
00:23:52
you're wrong and at that point you've already lost, you know
00:23:54
and he like does it poop emoji and you know whatever right now
00:23:57
you're done right, we've moved on.
00:23:59
Yeah it does. Matter.
00:24:00
Okay, so we got Keith, we got and reason.
00:24:02
Gosh, who else does a really good job?
00:24:04
I mean, I feel like Jai you know, it's a different style,
00:24:06
Josh Wolf, I think is always actually posting interesting
00:24:09
kind of substantive stuff. Yeah out there and I have a lot
00:24:12
of respect for Josh. I mean I love my occasional
00:24:14
podcast co-host is Zach Weinberg who has battled Keith quite a
00:24:18
bit but he's always an entertaining personality
00:24:21
tweeting. I mean Steve it's axes.
00:24:23
Bigger house acts duh though. It's mostly like let's let
00:24:26
Russia and behold the whole world sort of hold Thing.
00:24:29
Yeah, in calacanis probably, you know, I don't know if you call
00:24:32
him a VC or whatever you call them, the calacanis, it's
00:24:35
always, you know, like him. So sure.
00:24:37
He give you see that's a compliment.
00:24:39
I mean, Paul G blocked me for a long time, but when he tweets,
00:24:42
it's still. Is you Tweeting his hologram?
00:24:46
Yeah. And Balaji 2008.
00:24:47
I mean, navall is sort of falling off, right?
00:24:50
Or like, I don't see this. Yeah sweetie.
00:24:52
Yeah. I mean he's like tweeting like
00:24:54
cones of now like he's like the Buddha or something.
00:24:58
I haven't seen him to eat as much.
00:24:59
I Just always try to reply to the Vol when he would say
00:25:01
something and he came up to me at a party one time and we had
00:25:05
never met before. And now we just like reply with,
00:25:07
you know, he would say the most important thing in life is the
00:25:11
decision of where you live. And I said, like, no Vols wife
00:25:14
reading this like, you know, shaking my head or something,
00:25:16
right? And he came up to me one time at
00:25:18
a party, and he has so many followers, and get so many
00:25:20
replies, right? And so, I just thought I was,
00:25:22
like, some random ass and just like, making myself, laugh.
00:25:25
And he came up to me and he was like, you motherfucker, he's
00:25:28
like, I've wanted to block you So many times, I got the thought
00:25:31
of blocking you so many times and then every third time you'll
00:25:34
really make me laugh. And so I like convince myself
00:25:37
that I should and I was like, oh thanks snowball.
00:25:39
I appreciate that. Now that he was prolific, I
00:25:42
think the thing is it Ebbs and flows, right?
00:25:45
Like Twitter in general is a medium just kind of Ebbs and
00:25:47
flows and that's one of the things I found is like in
00:25:50
tweeting. I've sort of you're not as hot
00:25:52
as you were. Yeah, I'm now sort of focus on
00:25:54
the podcasting thing because you sort of figure out a form factor
00:25:58
that works and then your Come because of that form factor or
00:26:02
style, right? And there's really only two ways
00:26:04
to grow in a meaningful way. On Twitter, it's like jokes and
00:26:07
shit posts or like threads. Those are some really only two
00:26:10
more Scoops, but sir, we are your way.
00:26:12
Yeah, it's a lot of it does. I mean, that's all I have.
00:26:17
I mean, I have more newsletter subscribers and Twitter
00:26:20
followers, which speaks to which medium, yeah, more successful
00:26:23
on. Yeah.
00:26:24
But the thing is, once you get to a certain level, it's kind of
00:26:27
like you start to box yourself in In to that's what people want
00:26:30
from you, right? And I always think of the
00:26:32
Wedding Crasher scene where it's like make me a bicycle clown and
00:26:35
it's like whenever I would deviate from something they'd be
00:26:37
like, you know to give me the bicycle like side doing the
00:26:40
subduing, the insights pain, right?
00:26:43
Funny man. That's not why I came here,
00:26:45
right? So, I do think Twitter, like,
00:26:47
people add them flow with their, like interests and do Ian and
00:26:51
Founders fund. He used to fight so much if you
00:26:53
like his Twitter is mellowed out.
00:26:55
I think people just get busy and distracted with other stuff like
00:26:57
delians running a company and you.
00:26:59
Whatever, but I mean CM lesson does his screenshot, sorry.
00:27:02
I'm still going through my list of who's the real a lot of men,
00:27:06
obviously, but on the article thing though, it's an
00:27:09
interesting confirmation bias of, I think, people just want to
00:27:12
believe this to be true. And again, the story itself is
00:27:16
interesting enough. One of the quotes in, there was
00:27:18
most VCS, who are playing the content game, employ a bunch of
00:27:21
writers. I know people who make almost
00:27:23
seven figures doing this. And again, I think I would know
00:27:27
if that were the case. Like I think if were people
00:27:29
making seven figures writing and not to say it's not happening.
00:27:33
I don't want to again, this is an Insider saying.
00:27:35
This is whoever the person is that saying it, I just find it
00:27:38
really hard to believe but I don't know.
00:27:39
I mean there's a lot of capital in the ecosystem, right?
00:27:42
Well I love the idea of the Griff that a writer would have
00:27:44
here in claim. You know, we got a whole writers
00:27:47
room of people Keith. We're going to pump up some
00:27:49
treats for you and then they come back to them like a day
00:27:51
later with this a narrative violation, just throw that bomb
00:27:55
into the mix and see what happens.
00:27:56
But it's sad thing. Obviously is it's not even like
00:27:58
the big It's probably like the more boring accounts that want
00:28:02
like that's the thing. If you're willing to pay someone
00:28:04
because you think oh you pay people for the best information
00:28:08
than the type of person who has terrible taste.
00:28:10
And, you know, is going to like be happy with like, really Bland
00:28:13
tweets. Well, that's how it gets.
00:28:15
I think to the point we're saying about authenticity here
00:28:17
because I think the people that are pure posters that you know
00:28:19
the ones that you know, Logan was mentioning here are the ones
00:28:23
who it is their core being it is the way they view the world that
00:28:25
their brain functions in, you know, tweets that get
00:28:28
engagement. Aunt.
00:28:29
And it's why I'm assuming that this person that was interviewed
00:28:32
here for the article is probably doing second or third-tier
00:28:35
things which kind of defeats the whole purpose of it.
00:28:37
Because if we can't you know, if we're going to guess that it's
00:28:39
not famous people. Then what are they really
00:28:41
gaining from it right? Like what do they actually know
00:28:44
what deal flow all the stuff about being a public personas?
00:28:46
They can get more, you know, to benefit their Core Business.
00:28:49
It's not even really there which is why it's kind of just like,
00:28:52
you know, like the Overflow of money in the space and people
00:28:56
just being absurdly wealthy, just trickles down to it, you
00:28:58
know, a writer here or there. About Sequoia.
00:29:00
I mean, rule of has 92 thousand Twitter followers, hard to
00:29:04
believe. It's Sequoia, retweeted me
00:29:06
there. Sequoia corporate account.
00:29:08
Retweeted me one time. They have 631 thousand
00:29:11
followers. Nothing happened.
00:29:14
It was like a mini injury sanur by far.
00:29:16
I think corporate accounts are hard just in general.
00:29:18
Like, people follow those like passively right rather than but
00:29:22
them in Andresen had by far, the biggest follower count and I
00:29:26
assume people are just following it for General information about
00:29:32
deals and stuff like that. Not for like actual engagement,
00:29:35
right? People don't engage with a
00:29:37
corporate. That's why you see like
00:29:39
occasionally when Wendy's goes off the, you know, whatever and
00:29:42
like some of these Brands start flapping back it is super
00:29:44
entertaining but people don't follow corporate accounts for
00:29:47
the actual information. I think one of the things that's
00:29:49
interesting though is that dichotomy that would exist from
00:29:52
like building this Persona online in such a way that is
00:29:56
incongruous with your own. Personality or style, right?
00:30:00
And I felt that a little bit where I was playing this cold
00:30:04
bearish VC voice, and then people would beat me and they
00:30:10
would be like, I think some people would expect me to be in
00:30:14
character. Right.
00:30:15
You know, whatever or like, be funnier than I was in person or
00:30:19
something, right? I don't know if you guys have
00:30:21
ever been around comedians but like some of the funniest people
00:30:23
I've ever met in my life, like you meet them and they're not
00:30:26
actually like funny on a day-to-day.
00:30:27
Like some are good, some are Insufferable where they're
00:30:30
always like trying to make jokes.
00:30:32
It can go either way. I know.
00:30:33
But I even have like some of the people I interact with that are
00:30:35
like the funniest people. I know are like, have a very
00:30:38
dark, they're like, very quiet. And they have like, very like
00:30:41
dark witty, quips that are going on in their head and then they
00:30:44
like, say it very subtly, but it doesn't come across right like
00:30:47
in the same way. And I think that's interesting
00:30:49
of if you're building this public Persona around something,
00:30:51
that is an authentic to who you are, and then people meet you,
00:30:55
right? And it's like, wait, hang on,
00:30:57
that's not what I thought. I was getting right and so
00:31:01
that's an interesting thing as well.
00:31:03
It's like to what end eventually you have to meet these people in
00:31:05
person are diamonds just like, hey, I took your money.
00:31:08
You need to get your jokes per minute up when we're hanging
00:31:11
out. Yeah, exactly.
00:31:12
He's, like, this isn't, you know, this isn't what I signed
00:31:15
up for Matt. You're like, over here, trying
00:31:17
to talk to me about, like, hack payback and efficiency metrics
00:31:20
is like, but I need some memes out of you.
00:31:22
Yeah, I thought that board meeting was to be way more
00:31:25
fucking like pithy than just asking me about.
00:31:28
Let's write your own goals. Can we get to the part of the
00:31:30
story that I found interesting? Because you know it no.
00:31:32
Okay, yeah, no go. Yeah yeah I know.
00:31:34
I'm just kidding. Okay, here's this part.
00:31:36
Everyone involved in Tech at a global scale has a political
00:31:39
project. Most of them are open border
00:31:41
guys, they want to be the immigration reform drum because
00:31:45
they need to hire Engineers. A lot of my clients are
00:31:48
interested in Tech policy and National Security.
00:31:51
China, deterrence missile defense, the government
00:31:53
procurement process. I can help them sound like their
00:31:55
knowledgeable and In The Weeds on this stuff, man, I hope he's
00:31:58
not charging a ton for. Sometimes tweets about policy
00:32:01
arguments can get pretty close to what you'd call an op-ed.
00:32:04
So this is weird to me this part of it because it's trying to
00:32:08
graft a political low like a business rationale on to
00:32:13
political tweets and I just don't agree that that's the
00:32:16
case. I honestly think all these guys,
00:32:18
you know, the all in people any of the other people, have you
00:32:20
mentioned so far that are tweeting about politics and, you
00:32:22
know, all the fucking day long, think they do it?
00:32:25
Because they really think their political opinions are
00:32:27
interesting and they want to get it out there.
00:32:29
Right, it's not even good for business or they just can't help
00:32:31
themselves. Like yeah, honestly, what
00:32:34
prolific interesting person. This figure whoever this is must
00:32:38
be that they're like five hours a week, right?
00:32:42
Five hours a week for 200 Grand a year.
00:32:44
They're waiting in 25 to 50 VC's in boxes that come up with
00:32:49
tweets. They have their own burner phone
00:32:51
to do this, which is just hilarious.
00:32:52
That like that was a part of the article.
00:32:54
It's like I have my own CRM. My own burner phone a thick what
00:32:57
in the world, why do you need your own?
00:32:59
Like the chat apps work pretty well across different platforms
00:33:01
like an Excel sheet where I don't think you need a personal
00:33:04
CRM for this, but it feels like they just this person must be
00:33:08
amazingly intelligent to be able to just talk in someone else's
00:33:12
voice. Let alone, one person, but 25 to
00:33:15
50 people and then come up with funny jokes, as well as, like
00:33:19
immigration policy threads, and be able to craft all that back
00:33:23
to like the voice that this individual wants to have all
00:33:26
while being a founder of another company that Are spending, you
00:33:30
know the vast majority of their time doing.
00:33:32
I don't know. It felt like to me there was
00:33:34
like cobbled together a bunch of interesting truths here
00:33:38
probably, and they decided to just like, you know, maybe this
00:33:43
is five different people that they turned it into the
00:33:45
amalgamation of one or something.
00:33:47
It just feels like they try to jam too many things into one.
00:33:51
Like, here's what I'm doing, right?
00:33:53
And make too many different points.
00:33:54
When any of these points could have been interesting on their
00:33:56
own. It does feel like this needed to
00:33:58
be a real person. Like a named person, I don't
00:34:02
know. I find it a little hard to
00:34:04
believe. They have a process here at
00:34:06
Insider where they do try to verify these things and I'm sure
00:34:09
went through that process. I think what they're trying to
00:34:11
get at why the story was popular, is that it does seem to
00:34:13
be that there are like, we talked about, ulterior motives
00:34:16
to being a Twitter personality to presence.
00:34:18
And whether you can do it yourself, ready to hire someone
00:34:20
to do it. I do think there's a sense, the
00:34:23
Twitter's, like, dying or like, I don't know, do you feel like
00:34:26
Twitter is like decaying? I think that keeps coming up in
00:34:28
the Our station right heel on buying it.
00:34:30
The like it's not just the markets gotten worse, but it
00:34:33
feels like Twitter, the experience or is that too?
00:34:37
Or just always heard of Bleak on there.
00:34:39
I don't know. I mean honestly it feels like it
00:34:43
feels like people that have increased new levels of fame or
00:34:47
new levels of notoriety or celebrity then look around at
00:34:51
their like Twitter presence and they're like, what is good?
00:34:55
Like all these people are attacking me and it's like,
00:34:57
well, you are Weighing in on global events across the world
00:35:01
and you do have millions of followers and so like your
00:35:04
experience may be has changed because of how your profile has
00:35:08
been raised and how your profile has gone up.
00:35:10
Not anything inherent de like Twitter, the app and so to some
00:35:14
extent Twitter gets all this criticism of the experience.
00:35:18
Right? From people, whose experience
00:35:20
has noticeably changed because they're far richer and far more
00:35:24
famous and weighing in on issues that they didn't in the past.
00:35:28
And so, If that's what's always funny to me.
00:35:30
When he lands like, oh, how many people their replies are all
00:35:34
Bots when they post something, right?
00:35:36
And he's like, everyone only gets bot replies in crypto spam.
00:35:39
And I'm like, dude, like you're the most followed person on a
00:35:42
platform, right? Yeah.
00:35:44
It's not represent experience is different than my experience on
00:35:47
the platform and so I don't know if Twitter is actually dying.
00:35:51
I mean I do think that all these new form factors that are coming
00:35:53
out are interesting and like should be explored and be that
00:35:56
you know whatever Tick-Tock or reels or YouTube I mean you're
00:35:58
paying someone and Been wanting to say this and you're paying
00:36:01
red point. Is someone to create tick-tocks,
00:36:04
right? I mean, can you talk about that?
00:36:05
Yeah, well, that's, you know, whatever that's not his entirety
00:36:08
of his job. But yeah, we shot a Seer, we
00:36:10
hired from he was at looker. That's all I see, you know?
00:36:13
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
00:36:14
He comes on him. He's a producer, I see him on my
00:36:17
tic tocs, you know, he's a producer for my podcast as well.
00:36:20
And then he does a bunch of internal stuff with other than
00:36:22
sand in content with our portfolio companies at a bunch
00:36:25
of different things. But yes, that is some one I
00:36:28
guess to be very clear that we Was what Drew us to hiring him?
00:36:31
Was that he was creative and good at content.
00:36:34
And I guess this is an interesting thing that kind of
00:36:35
dovetails back to the overall thing.
00:36:37
We're talking about is I found when we were trying to produce
00:36:40
content or get our name out there more and more inevitably,
00:36:44
it always falls to the bottom of investors priorities to do this
00:36:48
stuff. Like, it's always, hey, you have
00:36:50
a list of 15 things and this is the 16th and you never get to
00:36:54
it, right? It's like unless you're willing
00:36:56
to bump it up to the 4th or 3rd or whatever thing.
00:36:59
Never going to get to it versus talking to the next founder,
00:37:02
whatever. And so in talking to one of the
00:37:05
thought process and bringing over shy because hey, he's
00:37:08
funny, interesting creative and he's going to be a kind of a
00:37:10
Swiss Army knives that can do a bunch of different stuff for us.
00:37:13
But then to having someone that wakes up everyday kind of
00:37:15
thinking about content in some way shape or form, he's
00:37:18
launching a podcast here in the next couple weeks or like a
00:37:20
YouTube series thing. And just having someone that
00:37:23
like his thinking, about that every day, but all that's to
00:37:26
say, like, the more important thing was in trying to Get my
00:37:29
co-workers to produce content. It was never a priority.
00:37:33
It's a priority at a strategic meeting and we're like, oh, this
00:37:35
should be a priority. And so, we talked about it,
00:37:37
right? And then like one person or two
00:37:39
people goes and executes on it when everyone else is like, oh I
00:37:42
forgot about that priority, right?
00:37:44
And so that was one of the things for it, which I think
00:37:46
ties back to why you would pay someone else that would make it
00:37:49
a priority for them, right? Yeah.
00:37:51
Has there ever been significant blowback?
00:37:52
Do you think they're VCS who have lost out on deals because
00:37:55
they were so committed to tweeting about their Fierce
00:37:58
commitment to Borders that you know, there was some like
00:38:01
potential startup Founders that were like a fucked.
00:38:03
This guy. I don't want this guy on my
00:38:05
board because he's going to you know, it's a funny story.
00:38:07
I mean this is like related to your question less heft than
00:38:10
open borders, but we had a joke, Rashad made this video about VC,
00:38:14
six months ago versus VC's now. And the joke was how fickle VCS
00:38:18
are in their advice. That was the joke, but one of
00:38:21
the comments of six months ago were like, hey, you need to hire
00:38:24
as many people as you can, and let's blitzscale our marketing
00:38:27
department and then it like cuts To VCS now.
00:38:30
And it's like, do you really need a marketing department,
00:38:33
right? And the joke wasn't like, about
00:38:36
the role of marketing. The joke was like, how fickle
00:38:39
BCS were in their advice. But I'll tell you, there's a lot
00:38:44
of humorless people on the internet and one CEO.
00:38:47
In particular, got very fired up about that and was like, I would
00:38:51
never work with a DC that is so, flippant about the roles of
00:38:56
layoffs and all that. And Then it got set around
00:39:00
internally and then you know whatever it got the original
00:39:04
your enemies within red Point. Used it to knife you like
00:39:07
however yeah exactly. So I this is my I announced my
00:39:10
departure from Red Boy you know. But the original tweet got like
00:39:12
two thousand likes and then this one person got 60 or whatever
00:39:16
trying to clap back at us. But you know what like 60 likes
00:39:20
and 15 replies saying. I'm never going to work with
00:39:23
this firm again or I'll never have them on my list.
00:39:26
It does feel like a big Deal in the grand scheme of things.
00:39:30
And so to some extent, like, I actually respect Founders Fund
00:39:32
in a meaningful Way for their ability to say, hey, we're not
00:39:35
going to appeal to everyone, and we're going to tell a lot of
00:39:37
people to fuck off, but we're going to try to feel deeply to
00:39:40
some subset of this. And so we've had that experience
00:39:42
here in the last couple months, and it had to be a conversation
00:39:44
internally about like, hey, our jokes worth people, disliking
00:39:49
us. Because that sort of, even if
00:39:51
you have a 90% approval rating and you reach 100 people,
00:39:55
that means 10. People are going to dislike you,
00:39:57
right? And back him seem like, Lot when
00:39:59
they're yelling at you online. Well, this is C.
00:40:01
This is where it gets to be Crossover with journalists again
00:40:04
because I think it's the same calculation journalists have of
00:40:06
like. All right I can make this joke
00:40:08
or I can make fun of Facebook in this particular way and it could
00:40:11
piss off some number of people. I'm I willing to accept that in
00:40:15
order to get the other people that might be more inclined to
00:40:17
follow me or like me relief things to me like let me see
00:40:20
what that trade-off is. So it's all flattened through.
00:40:22
The same medium people are so much meaner journalists have
00:40:26
such thicker skin than BCS do like you guys get roasted like
00:40:30
all the time with people angry at you for doing your job,
00:40:33
right? Like you doing your job,
00:40:35
involves people getting mad at you more often than not like
00:40:38
breaking a scoop you know, Eric broke some Scoops today and I
00:40:41
was like fuck man. Come like come on, really like
00:40:45
did you really have to do that, right?
00:40:46
About one of our portfolio companies and so you're doing
00:40:49
your job is like, actually annoying people at times.
00:40:52
And people can be very vitriolic to reporters about stuff, right?
00:40:56
And all the fake news and, you know, whatever all the
00:40:58
animosity. I don't feel too bad for
00:41:00
reporters. First of all, we're out there.
00:41:02
Like I was going to say. Also, you have to keep in mind
00:41:04
that we make a lot of money, you know, that's the thing that's so
00:41:07
wealthy. And so it's like you're willing
00:41:09
to accept some of the slings and arrows in order to get that 78
00:41:12
figure. Well, yeah, and you all have
00:41:14
verified check marks on Twitter and you get to, you know,
00:41:18
whatever, all those like Met Ball Galas and stuff.
00:41:20
I do the most invigorating is definitely for all the VCS to be
00:41:24
like the real Elites are the reporters, you know?
00:41:27
It's like not the people who make a bazillion In dollars.
00:41:29
It's the fucking reporters. Who are the real Elites?
00:41:33
It is a funny though. I mean baked not to say I feel
00:41:35
badly for reporters. It's more of contrast of like
00:41:39
how sensitive VCS can be about stuff isn't right.
00:41:42
And at the end of the day we get paid very well to do a pretty
00:41:47
fun job. I do think it's a very San
00:41:49
Francisco thing or I mean like Wall Street Finance.
00:41:53
I mean, I feel like people while do complain about getting
00:41:56
attacked. I don't think there is like
00:41:58
surprise. I do think part of it is that VC
00:42:01
works so well in that you can always add somebody else to
00:42:05
around. So there's just such an
00:42:07
incentive in that business to be nice to everybody in a way that
00:42:11
feels great. Like I, yeah, it's nice to be in
00:42:13
a business where people can be nice and then it makes people
00:42:17
shocked when people aren't and they're like why it works?
00:42:19
So well when you're I wonder how much I mean 21 like a lot of
00:42:22
people in Tech at large, right? We're probably more introverted
00:42:27
and not like, you know, Didn't have the popularity, Sports
00:42:32
thing through high school and college and all of that stuff,
00:42:36
right? And so there's some like, hey
00:42:38
now I've made it. And so when people now I'm cool,
00:42:41
right? And by my childhood, people were
00:42:44
mean, and there were these Meathead bullies, but now I'm
00:42:47
not that, and so when there's criticism coming it's like wait,
00:42:51
hang on, I'm past that point, right?
00:42:53
Like this is bringing back memories of my middle school and
00:42:56
I don't like that, right? And so I think part of it is Is
00:42:59
made, but it's a trauma to this box.
00:43:01
Yeah. Yeah.
00:43:02
It's like hang on, hang on. Like and you do not put me in
00:43:05
that Locker again, I told Tommy Greene if he ever did that and
00:43:09
then the other one I think that's interesting is like there
00:43:12
is this inherent optimism and now I mean it's kind of
00:43:15
counterbalance with some level of like broad-based mule ISM
00:43:18
that I think also exist. But the like the tenant of BC
00:43:22
and technology is like optimism ever believing in the future and
00:43:27
all that. And so when people start poking
00:43:30
and prodding that, I think there's an inherent
00:43:32
defensiveness that comes out and also it's a lot easier to sound
00:43:37
a cynic than it is to sound an octopus.
00:43:39
Right? And so I think people just over
00:43:41
correct on those things and it comes off in a vitriolic, kind
00:43:45
of way. Did you ever concluding thought
00:43:47
on this Tom? And then I did want to talk
00:43:49
about the market for 10 minutes? No, I think we should all, you
00:43:53
know, keep fighting on Twitter. I think it's clearly doing good
00:43:56
for all of our personal Brands I want to Rate my offer to
00:44:00
journalists, I don't have a lot of followers but that's because,
00:44:03
you know, I'm very concerned about my personal brand, but I
00:44:06
can build up other people's and I would like to just put my
00:44:09
skills out there to someone. If you are a journalist, you
00:44:11
don't think you're getting the gauge me.
00:44:12
Think you should get, you want to get into fights with people.
00:44:15
I can offer those tweets reach out to me.
00:44:17
My dams are open, Tom has the weirdest.
00:44:19
I'm gonna link to some of the Tom tweets that are like jokes
00:44:22
on, like streaming platform, wants to be the New Yorker, you
00:44:25
know, you don't need to appeal, broadly to everyone, Tom.
00:44:29
You have a very sophisticated palate that, like, keep us what
00:44:31
I like, you know, it's a small but extremely high influence
00:44:36
audience of people? I think that's right.
00:44:38
Either I think make the time not to psychoanalyze you but to do
00:44:41
it but I really do. You make you make joke that
00:44:44
there were a lot like I like them because they rely on
00:44:47
knowing like your voice and so if you know your voice and your
00:44:51
sensibility, it's like rorty, like no lever.
00:44:54
But like nobody your buddy, laughs.
00:44:58
Maybe less It's like, do you know what my hope is that it
00:45:01
Burrows into your brain and then like a couple of hours later
00:45:04
you're like oh yeah, I guess that was kind of funny and then
00:45:07
and then you move on with your day.
00:45:08
I keep making content for the unwashed masses but Tom that the
00:45:13
real caviar Taste of humor, right?
00:45:15
He's not only sell out like you back to the broadcast Cable
00:45:18
model. I mean, you're kind of you're
00:45:19
out there doing CBS sitcoms, you know?
00:45:21
That's right. That's right.
00:45:23
Popularity. Our podcast has a dead cat.
00:45:25
Like, definitely. There we got a couple people
00:45:27
were like a dead cat like Like, how dare you invoke that image?
00:45:31
Like, it's terrible for SEO. But yeah, yeah.
00:45:35
But it weeds out the people who are concerned about that.
00:45:37
All right, let's go through our serious PC.
00:45:38
So naturally we're going to spend 90% of time talking about
00:45:42
Twitter and 10%. But like, I mean I have course I
00:45:46
actually don't remember which of these companies you'd invested
00:45:48
in earlier but you know I just wrote about like a hundred
00:45:50
million dollar series 175 million series a of 500 million
00:45:56
series C, all happening recently.
00:45:57
And just as Idea that like yep I don't know.
00:46:01
Series a bcc'd. People are willing to go
00:46:04
aggressive. The growth stage funds are like
00:46:06
diving in whereas growth is still super hard.
00:46:10
You're more of a growth investor I mean yeah I don't know where
00:46:14
we grow that desus or like yeah, you've been tempted to go early.
00:46:18
Oh yeah, funny enough, I guess. Timing-wise were reporting this
00:46:22
on what a Friday. And last night I got together
00:46:25
with a bunch of our limited partners and so I had to pull
00:46:27
together a bunch of Data and, you know, kind of collect my
00:46:32
thoughts. Unstuff, right.
00:46:34
Just sound intelligent and I don't know if that worked but I
00:46:38
did collect thoughts and it's interesting, right?
00:46:41
I will say that what we've seen at the series B series C, stage
00:46:48
is like, definitely a pullback in terms of valuations.
00:46:51
So this was kind of a proprietary analysis that we had
00:46:54
internally, and I'm going to give you the broad Strokes of
00:46:56
it, but the deals that we care about Eight, which is a very at
00:47:00
the moment in time and a very qualitative assessment, but
00:47:03
we've been doing it for six years or whatever, right.
00:47:06
And we saw a step up between 2020 and 2021 of it went from
00:47:13
like do the math on it. I guess it went from 255 million
00:47:16
to just under 600 million for series bees for the average
00:47:20
price of deals, you care about correct the median.
00:47:23
But yeah and so it was like a 2X step up in the revenue.
00:47:26
Multiple of that went from 32. Times to a hundred and fifty
00:47:30
three times. Right?
00:47:32
Right. And the room also increased by
00:47:34
much more than the valuation. Correct.
00:47:36
And so what was happening was at the scale of these companies
00:47:39
went from five million down to two million.
00:47:41
And so, people were both going earlier in these companies and
00:47:45
paying more, right? And so obviously that's how the
00:47:48
multiple of those up in such a meaningful way.
00:47:50
Now, since in 2022, we've seen it falls at 595 is down to 39 T
00:47:56
fish and the multiples. I'm from 153 to 110.
00:48:01
So it's fallen off but not at the level before all this was
00:48:05
going on, right? If you go back to 2019 or even
00:48:08
2020, we're talking like 25 to 35 times, right?
00:48:11
These like sort of the and you can justify that because these
00:48:14
companies are growing to 2/3 x. And so hey like when you compare
00:48:18
that to the public market how does that make sense?
00:48:20
Well you know the public market companies are growing 60% right
00:48:23
versus these companies are going to hundred percent, right?
00:48:25
So you could justify at reeling number being fire.
00:48:29
As a multiple. So we've seen it correct.
00:48:31
But there is this like stickiness in some of these
00:48:35
prices and then there's all this dry powder sitting on the
00:48:38
sidelines, right? And so I don't know how it's
00:48:41
going to flow through and there's these two things that
00:48:44
are kind of at odds or tension with one another right now,
00:48:47
we're one is valuations have gotten hammered in the public
00:48:50
markets, right? To is, we're starting to see the
00:48:52
macro, flow-through of, you know, softening and sales cycles
00:48:56
and Pipeline and all that in the public markets.
00:48:59
Where I have some data that I can talk to on that.
00:49:01
So we're starting to see all that stuff happening, right?
00:49:03
Then the tension on the other side, is all this fucking money,
00:49:06
right? And you have six, eight, ten
00:49:08
billion dollar funds sitting there.
00:49:10
And so I'm not really sure how those two things are going to
00:49:13
play out and how long it's going to take to play out.
00:49:16
And so I think to the things that you reported on today Eric
00:49:20
what I think is bright, I don't want to speak about any of the
00:49:22
portfolio companies that I wish you hadn't preempted funding
00:49:25
news on. But in general, I think what
00:49:27
we're seeing is Is some of these groups that previously were
00:49:32
willing to invest two hundred million dollars at a two billion
00:49:35
dollar valuation right now, they're saying, hey you know
00:49:39
what, let's go put in 20 million dollars at a 200 million dollar
00:49:43
valuation and let's do it in 10 companies, right?
00:49:46
And so you're seeing all these people say, Hey, fuck it.
00:49:49
We don't really care if it's 150 or 200 or 250, or 300, much
00:49:53
better than that 2 billion. We were paying before and so,
00:49:56
while it's crazy on a multiple basis, Right, because it might
00:49:59
be, you know, Infinity time, they might not have Revenue, at
00:50:03
least the low absolute valuation.
00:50:06
Gives you upside that if this grows into a two billion dollar
00:50:09
company, the big like, question that I've had that is hard to
00:50:12
answer. But do you think series a rounds
00:50:14
were actually like were mispriced and the just the
00:50:18
likelihood of getting from series data series?
00:50:20
See was so high that people were giving too much of a discount.
00:50:25
Its series a, I mean, John courteous who's leaving tiger I
00:50:29
You could almost argue his new fund is on that premise.
00:50:32
It's like very like going to be series 8 is series beef, series,
00:50:36
C focused. I think like the idea that like
00:50:39
preference is actually a really valuable thing and like you
00:50:42
don't necessarily lose your money and like an early stage
00:50:45
investment. So there's more downside
00:50:47
protection than is, I don't know.
00:50:49
Do you think there is a chance that series a prices were too
00:50:53
low relative to series C and D? If you look at the run up that
00:50:56
existed from like, let's go back to 2012, Calls to today rate.
00:51:00
Like I think I'm not gonna get this numbers exactly right.
00:51:03
But like series bees went up by 4X and series sees what up by
00:51:08
six acts and series a is went up by two x, right?
00:51:11
And so, like the absolute, the valuation increase of these
00:51:14
things were not linear between the two, right?
00:51:17
They didn't expand at a comparable rate.
00:51:19
Now, why was that the case? Well, series A's?
00:51:22
I think, Founders probably had a little bit more price discipline
00:51:25
and desire to pick board members and you know, not to price.
00:51:29
Mais the myth of a benchmark. Insisting, you keep to price
00:51:34
discipline held harder than the late State.
00:51:36
Yeah. And I think there's more truth
00:51:38
to it at the earlier stage then as you get to the later stages
00:51:41
of these valuations. And so you've seen the
00:51:44
correction, I think when we were sort of pouring through our
00:51:46
data, you know that B's and C's or down in some cases 50, 60, 70
00:51:53
percent, right in different situations.
00:51:55
And I think it might take a while for all that back.
00:51:59
Lee flow through and to see it in a broad-based way versus the
00:52:01
series Azor down 20-30 percent, right?
00:52:05
And they didn't go up the same way that the B's and C's did so
00:52:08
they're not going down the same way.
00:52:10
And so, I guess the question is like, was it mispriced may be
00:52:15
right? I think it requires a lot more
00:52:17
work to invest in a series, a company.
00:52:19
It's not nearly the dollars aren't as scalable because, hey,
00:52:23
you know, it takes about as much time to do a 30 million dollar
00:52:27
check as it does to do five million.
00:52:29
Check in a lot of cases and then to you actually need to work
00:52:32
with these companies in a way of like, helping them hire, and
00:52:34
recruit and all that. I know that well, that's been
00:52:36
the real challenge that this series a investors have to keep
00:52:39
working. And then tiger comes in and is
00:52:41
like, here's a bunch of money, but we're not going to do
00:52:42
anything. Good luck.
00:52:43
And so it's then still the poor series.
00:52:46
A investor that has, like, keep the company together, that's the
00:52:49
smartest thing. A lot of these hedge funds are
00:52:51
doing now, is they're looking at, like, the companies and
00:52:53
saying, not just the validation of, do they have a good
00:52:56
investor? That's already there.
00:52:57
But also do they have a good? Board member who's going to be a
00:53:00
steward for the capital and make sure they don't drive it off the
00:53:03
cliff, right? And so, they're kind of looking
00:53:05
at it being like, well, you know, that person's legit.
00:53:08
And so I'll just trust them, like, they'll be my proxy for
00:53:12
all decisions, right? And then they get to be a little
00:53:14
price insensitive about is it 100 post or 200 posts, right?
00:53:19
Which seems like a really meaningful amount, but if you're
00:53:22
a hedge fund, who's crossing over into privates and you're
00:53:25
ultimately trying to move three, four billion.
00:53:29
There's five billion dollars in the next three or four years
00:53:31
like you don't really care. It's either gonna work or it's
00:53:34
not last question on this. I think there's one view that
00:53:38
like everybody was slow in the first like, what eight months to
00:53:41
a year nine months to a year and then they're like, finally
00:53:45
really come back from vacation. And like you said there, I have
00:53:47
all this dry powder and they're like, fuck it.
00:53:49
We need to do deals this. What people pay me for.
00:53:52
And so, they're doing them, but it's still sort of irrational
00:53:55
because it's going to be more brutal ahead than Hind or this
00:54:00
is sort of the beginning of a comeback story in startup
00:54:04
investing. I mean, do you have a view
00:54:07
either way of whether this is sort of like sort of weird
00:54:10
incentives based on people's jobs or if it's the actual
00:54:13
reflection that the market is going to start to turn around?
00:54:17
Yeah, I mean, I guess I'll take a cop out and say, hey, I think
00:54:20
it's some of both. I will say, there are perverse
00:54:22
incentives that and I had a high level, I believe in the trends
00:54:26
that are going on in blah, blah, blah.
00:54:27
Let me give you all my life. LP speak of what they tax.
00:54:31
Good on it, right? Yeah.
00:54:32
These tectonic shifts that are happening or inevitable and it's
00:54:35
going to create lots of equity value and all that right Bubba.
00:54:37
Yeah, I think one thing we're seeing is there's definitely
00:54:40
Supply. I think it's not a demand
00:54:41
problem that exists like I think there's feces still willing to
00:54:45
be very irrational in their investing and I think there's a
00:54:47
lot of perverse incentives that exist there.
00:54:50
Where people are like hey you know, my job's not the time, the
00:54:53
markets, right? I'm using air quotes, right?
00:54:55
But I like my job is to give Adam Newman like three hundred
00:54:57
million dollars. Yeah, my job is not to assess,
00:55:01
you know, valuation. My job is to assess, you know,
00:55:04
Trends and entrepreneurs, right? And so I'm not going to get too
00:55:08
hung up on the price of all this.
00:55:09
And so I think there's a lot of people that have that philosophy
00:55:12
right now. I think what you're seeing is,
00:55:14
there's a supply problem that so many companies, raise so much
00:55:17
money over the course of the last two years that the great
00:55:20
companies out there like hey, why would I go out there now and
00:55:24
get jerked around potentially on valuation, or have to take it
00:55:26
down round or whatever? Why would I go out and do that?
00:55:28
That when I have capital for the next six years sitting on my
00:55:31
balance sheet. And so I think the reason we're
00:55:34
seeing I don't know how much VCS have actually found religion on
00:55:38
like hey the public markets are impacting the multiples that we
00:55:41
should be willing to pay and therefore what these outcomes
00:55:43
can be versus they're just not getting in the swings at the
00:55:47
plate that they got over the course a lot.
00:55:49
And so I think it's going to take a bunch of the businesses
00:55:52
that actually need Capital to go back out and start fundraising
00:55:56
and they can't just sit on the sidelines to really figure Which
00:55:59
one of those two things is going to play out.
00:56:00
And to be honest, it's going to be both, right?
00:56:02
There's going to be V sees that have found total religion and
00:56:06
understand exactly where multiples are trading and going
00:56:08
to be very disciplined about this stuff.
00:56:09
And there's going to be VC's that say, Hey, you know our jobs
00:56:12
to we raised by billion dollars and so we're invest five billion
00:56:16
dollars. How many deals have you done
00:56:18
personally, this year as a fund, we've done one this entire year.
00:56:23
What I've done? Oh my god.
00:56:25
Wow. Alright boys.
00:56:25
Early stage. Sorry.
00:56:26
Sorry, that's the growth team. Red pointer.
00:56:28
Least age. I don't know.
00:56:29
They've done more. But we've done one this entire
00:56:32
year. It was done in January and we've
00:56:34
done. That's the only one we've done.
00:56:35
Is that an eyesore? Well, 12 months.
00:56:37
Yeah. Acuity MD, it was technically a
00:56:39
series. It was a big series as your life
00:56:41
is just tweeting. Going back to her room.
00:56:42
No wonder. You're like Europe.
00:56:44
I kind of resent. Well, hey, come on.
00:56:47
That's not that's not fair. I podcast and tweet a so, right?
00:56:49
Yeah yeah. Do you help me send you Ilan
00:56:52
like text like what have you done this week?
00:56:54
Yeah, yeah I get that. I get that.
00:56:56
Sometimes I know they wish I It more of their money, just
00:57:00
unscrew Pious lead to the Twitter round.
00:57:02
Just sort of sent money over that.
00:57:03
That's true. I got right?
00:57:05
Let me in on that baby. Yeah.
00:57:07
Only 4 billion or bust? Yeah, so no.
00:57:09
But it's interesting, right? I mean it is the last 12 months
00:57:12
I think as a fund we're probably at the point that we've only
00:57:15
done one. That's the only deal we've done
00:57:16
even in the last 12 months, let alone this calendar year right
00:57:19
now. We're still looking at a bunch
00:57:20
of stuff and we're still chasing things around but it's really
00:57:23
that supply problem. And then a little bit of this
00:57:25
Market disk location pricing thing that were I don't know,
00:57:28
We've been a little more attuned to, or at least a little more
00:57:31
focused on than others have. Hmm.
00:57:33
Well, we ended and quite a height in place.
00:57:35
I feel like in this conversation after the beginning.
00:57:37
Yeah, I do think a real, you shitpost.
00:57:39
The real you is, is the the one with the financials.
00:57:42
I'm sorry to say, well, I mean, and that's why it's so
00:57:45
incongruous that I have all these writers writing, all this
00:57:48
stuff to me and then and then I like go down this Rabbit Hole of
00:57:51
like multiples and Sass and financials and all that.
00:57:53
And they're like, what the fuck? Like, can you make a joke,
00:57:57
right? Well, but Ability to, you know,
00:57:59
have facility with these financials makes the monies that
00:58:02
you can employ the writers that keep your Twitter account
00:58:05
cracked. Yeah, I know it's a sort of
00:58:06
circular flywheel. It's really capitalism and its
00:58:09
purest form right there. So right.
00:58:12
Yeah. Just trickle it down
00:58:13
actualization. Yeah, yeah, it, but it all works
00:58:16
together. Well, I'm glad we entered in
00:58:17
this place Logan and we should plug your podcast.
00:58:20
Yeah. So this is much more in depth
00:58:22
into all this stuff. It's nice to be a guest rather
00:58:24
than a host. So I appreciate you guys.
00:58:26
Yeah, you guys driving this Italy?
00:58:28
Is it? You're like I have thoughts to,
00:58:30
you know, I have expert. Yeah.
00:58:32
Ask other people what they think?
00:58:34
Yeah. Yeah.
00:58:35
I have two on my podcast. I ask that a non sequiturs that
00:58:38
just like double back to my own opinion.
00:58:40
It's like much more. You know, we're you guys ask, it
00:58:42
doesn't feel like you're projecting here.
00:58:44
Logan. Is there something that you want
00:58:45
to be talking about? Yeah, a lot of that on the show.
00:58:48
Yeah, so I do I've cartoon avatars.
00:58:49
You do it once a week and yeah, it the format changes.
00:58:53
We have people on, it's not dissimilar.
00:58:54
You guys in some ways. You guys brought down, web,
00:58:57
three basically, right? I mean, you just Right.
00:58:59
You said there was nothing there and yeah correct.
00:59:02
Yeah, which is another funny thing because we have people in
00:59:04
our team at Red point that invest in weatherbury and people
00:59:07
are like, wait, isn't that guy like the - web three guy,
00:59:10
doesn't? That doesn't mean work with you,
00:59:12
right? See, but this gets back to like
00:59:14
the idea between like contents and actual business.
00:59:17
You're like, if to understand anti web, three stuff does
00:59:19
really well right now. Exactly, exactly play that
00:59:21
market gives. That's right.
00:59:24
I actually just when people, whatever people say, aren't you.
00:59:26
The web three guy just show the spikes and listener.
00:59:28
Bishop and ever and I'm like, yes, no, I'm the market guy.
00:59:32
That's what I mean. Yeah.
00:59:34
Are you guys going to have Sam lesson back on to redeem
00:59:36
himself? Is that, you know, I like it,
00:59:40
right? Like it was.
00:59:41
Yeah. It was hard to listen to, I
00:59:43
mean, yeah, I know, I know likes him.
00:59:45
I like his tweets but he came off terribly and he also can
00:59:48
just be so petty, like, on some of the I listened, he wanted to
00:59:53
do it. Exactly like, hey, this is
00:59:54
terrible. You know, I really I was
00:59:57
embarrassed because, like, I, you know, Sensibly, I'm supposed
00:59:59
to be the moderator of that and I I was just sort of sitting
01:00:02
back like arms crossed laughing the whole time and I kind of
01:00:05
forgot what my role in doing something like that.
01:00:08
Was you see? I'm just kept interrupting like
01:00:10
he, like I mean Zack is very good.
01:00:13
Is he like a what's his status with the show?
01:00:15
Is he a co-host? Or is he just sort of a he won't
01:00:18
be called a co-host. The guy does a million things.
01:00:21
It's actually pretty impressive, how busy he is and so trying to
01:00:23
pin him down regularly as a pain in the ass, but he know think he
01:00:27
comes on regularly, At this point and I can get them
01:00:30
probably every other episode. So I get something quasi
01:00:34
co-host. Yeah, we have a co-host who
01:00:36
drops off in the middle of episodes to take calls about the
01:00:39
justice department. So we can empathize.
01:00:42
Everyone can relate right here, we are.
01:00:44
We're on that content grind, and other people are like, trying to
01:00:47
do their job. Everyone's like, now you hear
01:00:50
why? I have the time to do this.
01:00:52
It's a penguin. So it you dumb one deal in the
01:00:54
last year. I'm like, yeah, that's right.
01:00:56
That's a yeah. Now, you know why I'm the And
01:00:59
with the schedule available for Zach and not the other way
01:01:01
around. All right.
01:01:02
Well anyway we I look forward to.
01:01:04
It's the same lesson Zak part 2. It's like the Gore Vidal Norman
01:01:07
mailer fight of our time. So no honestly I think the best
01:01:11
analogy is the first Trump Biden debate where I was I was the
01:01:15
moderator to sort of who was that, was that Chris Wallace?
01:01:18
Who was it? That got steamrolled.
01:01:19
That wasn't very good. Yeah, I think so.
01:01:22
I'm glad I remember more the Hillary, the more Hillary by
01:01:24
debates. They like I'm not the puppet,
01:01:26
you're the puppet. That's basically where that one
01:01:27
ended up but I'll listen. And either way cool thanks guys
01:01:30
this is fun alright thanks a bunch.
01:01:32
Thanks Logan. Goodbye.
01:01:46
Goodbye. Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye.
01:01:49
Goodbye. Goodbye.
01:01:46
Goodbye. Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye.
01:01:49
Goodbye.