What Would Steve Do? (w/Kara Swisher) | Newcomer Podcast

Dead Cat host Eric Newcomer already said his piece about Kara Swisher’s epic final Code Conference.

Now you can hear directly from Swisher about what she thought. On this week’s Dead Cat podcast, Tom Dotan and Newcomer catch up with Swisher fresh off her final Code Conference.

Together, we puzzle over Amazon chief Andy Jassy’s deference to his old boss and Alphabet CEO Sundar Pichai’s tough time denying that he wanted to buy Pinterest. We talked about Bob Iger’s charm and Swisher’s affection for Mark Cuban.

We dug into Swisher’s interview strategy.

We asked her whether her media publication Recode has been a success. Were they aggressive enough ahead of #MeToo? And what’s next for Swisher? Will Pivot replace Code?

And we quiz Swisher on some of her favorite Code interviews. Why did she tell Mark Zuckerberg to take off his sweatshirt? How did Steve Jobs keep Bill Gates on his toes?

Then we end the episode with a discussion of her final Code main stage panel — Tim Cook, Laurene Powell Jobs, and Jony Ive.

Give it a listen.

Get full access to Newcomer at www.newcomer.co/subscribe

00:00:06
Welcome. All right, welcome to dead cat.

00:00:15
This is Eric newcomer Tom dote on is here and we've got Kara

00:00:19
Swisher care and I just left code though.

00:00:22
Much more intense for her. Kara what did you say?

00:00:26
16 interviews or how many interviews 1616 Yeah.

00:00:30
And they're all big ones. They weren't small, they weren't

00:00:32
like, you know sometimes you have a sort of a palate cleanser

00:00:34
but it was went from Pete. Buddha.

00:00:36
Judge to Andy Jesse to Bob Iger to Jony Ive Lorraine jobs and

00:00:42
Tim Cook to Amy Klobuchar. It just wasn't like they were

00:00:45
even not easy. High expectations have actually

00:00:48
different topically different. The minute after I finished I

00:00:51
did a pivot episode was oh my gosh back from his scot-free

00:00:54
August. So you know I do for podcasts

00:00:57
away. It gets really, it's fine.

00:00:58
I'm just fine. It's good.

00:01:00
That's how we want to you know code was design that everybody's

00:01:03
a headliner essentially some conferences have a headliner and

00:01:06
then a bunch of you know lesser lesser weaker speakers or

00:01:10
sometimes sponsors unfortunately.

00:01:13
And we just felt that the way we designed it was everybody was a

00:01:17
kind of a can't-miss for almost every single, right?

00:01:20
And then we had these interstitial ones that were

00:01:22
great. They were great this year and

00:01:24
we're going to piece. It will be out by the time, this

00:01:26
airs about code and it does, it does feel like so, Any of the

00:01:30
conference's you go to, the questions are for the people who

00:01:33
aren't in the know. And then, you know, the Hank,

00:01:35
there's the background hanging, but I do think you use such a

00:01:37
good job of making the actual interviews feel feel essential,

00:01:42
you know, that's how it was started Walton.

00:01:43
I used to go to a lot of conferences, there were tons of

00:01:45
them back then like agenda and some of them were good, you

00:01:48
know. But that most of a lot of it,

00:01:50
first of all is very sponsor driven.

00:01:52
And so they were sort of done in this PR kind of way and they

00:01:56
were very light interviews by people who weren't journalists

00:01:59
sometimes like, I mean, I like a lot of these Technologies but

00:02:02
they really can't how smart is your brain, how big?

00:02:06
All right, we're news oriented, you know, people copied us for

00:02:09
years, you know, whether lots of different people try to do

00:02:12
different things. Post us, including the Wall

00:02:15
Street Journal called this conference D, if you can believe

00:02:18
it, because they're so creative, they can't come up with

00:02:20
something fresh and new. So, you know, we just tried, we

00:02:23
just did it on me. And we actually changed over the

00:02:24
years to, we didn't keep to the same stuff.

00:02:28
We things didn't work, we change them.

00:02:29
M. But our whole focus is on the

00:02:31
audience and what they would like, you know, that's how,

00:02:34
that's how just like we think about readers.

00:02:36
When we there are a number of themes to come out of the

00:02:39
conference but part of the reason I wanted to have you on

00:02:42
and like a big one was sort of like Kara's last code like why

00:02:47
you know why is this sort of the last code and yeah I it had sort

00:02:50
of a you know finality to it but you've got so many projects like

00:02:54
our I guess that's what's this? Ask her why?

00:03:00
She had this very? She's a hit show.

00:03:02
Five days a week, right? I've done it. 20 years and

00:03:04
honestly I've delivered so much good content to you.

00:03:07
You all should stop bothering me.

00:03:08
But you know, every year that are you winding down or you

00:03:11
know, 50 know, just just other things interest me.

00:03:14
It's just it's like putting on a Broadway show every year and

00:03:16
it's sort of, can you top this? And last year was great.

00:03:19
We had Ilan and Sasha and, you know, Marc benioff etc.

00:03:23
Etc, just really great interviews but it just every

00:03:27
every year I guess I want to a new thing I want to.

00:03:29
I'm not Like a cook and I want to make a new thing that's all.

00:03:33
And I'm, you know, you run a successful restaurant or

00:03:35
whatever it is you sort of want to try something new and so

00:03:38
pivot was that for me, you know, and we did all things.

00:03:42
We did Rico decode and then I moved over to the times.

00:03:46
And now I'm back doing another new one at box, which is a

00:03:49
little different. I wanted to sort of change out

00:03:51
the way I do my interview shows, so I just do that all the time

00:03:54
when I don't. And I'm like, no, I think I'll

00:03:56
do something else. I'm very much like a cook.

00:03:58
I'm like, I don't want to make this cake anymore.

00:04:00
It's a very good cake and I hope you enjoy it.

00:04:02
I charge a lot for my cake is the pivot is Pivot.

00:04:05
Going to replace it in some ways or it's not replacement, it's

00:04:09
different. It's such a different product,

00:04:10
right? We're going to we did a pivotal

00:04:12
event that I liked a lot. It was really fun to do that

00:04:15
when I had a really fun time doing this one, but pivot, the

00:04:18
pivot fans are really rabbit in a way that I love and they're

00:04:22
much more of a community. Explain to me.

00:04:24
What, who's a typical pivot fan? Whether they had of the

00:04:26
characterize them? You don't know.

00:04:27
Literally, I like it. Some guy in Queens.

00:04:31
Well, what they do is they meet you on the street and want to

00:04:34
talk to you and says something, which is great, we love it.

00:04:36
You know, I was in in Los Angeles having lunch at this

00:04:39
place, and two people came up to me, and she was an interior

00:04:42
designer, and he was a, Was An Architect, you know, they love

00:04:46
pivot and then this guy in Queens.

00:04:48
He did a u-turn on the street and jumped out of the car.

00:04:50
I thought I was in taken for a second, huh?

00:04:53
Yeah, I could have done many good measure.

00:04:54
Just wanted to selfie with me. And he was a plumber.

00:04:57
He was a plumber. It was like so it's a Different

00:05:00
kind of, I would say it's probably younger but now we have

00:05:03
a lot of young people this year code who are pivot fans actually

00:05:06
interesting Leo, interesting and pivots broader, right?

00:05:09
I mean, you're sort of moving your transcending Tech in a

00:05:12
certain way, right? Or how do you think about?

00:05:15
Yes, it's funnier when it's got that weird relationship between

00:05:18
me and Scott, you know, which is charismatic.

00:05:21
It really is, it's a great chemistry that we have together.

00:05:24
And it's, I can also one of the things that, if you notice the

00:05:28
third day and I was thrilled at So many people stay one of the

00:05:31
problems with code was we would do the third day and I would

00:05:34
joke. This is a joke.

00:05:35
I make a many times. If I book Jesus, is the last

00:05:38
speaker. A lot of people be like, oh, I

00:05:39
have a Southwest flight. I'm like, but he's back.

00:05:42
It's kind of a big deal that Jesus is back.

00:05:44
Yeah, turned. He's also be tough to explain

00:05:46
that. Jesus is PR agent that he's not

00:05:48
the headliner, right? Yeah, right.

00:05:49
I know. But I would put them at the end

00:05:51
if people there, but they wouldn't they be like, you know,

00:05:53
I got to get boring for whatever, you know.

00:05:55
And so the last day of code, I changed to be more like a pivot.

00:06:00
Which is people. You don't know companies like

00:06:03
that woman was doing wave technology.

00:06:05
Was amazing. Like what, you know, wave energy

00:06:08
technology. She was fantastic.

00:06:09
She couldn't make the big stage of code because everybody wants

00:06:12
Tim Cook, right? So I can the pivot conference.

00:06:16
I can have one or two big Headliners and I we last year we

00:06:18
had Brian chesky and the head of Goldman Sachs and then we have

00:06:21
all these companies you you may not have heard of but her

00:06:23
fantastic. We can also be more diverse and

00:06:26
I don't just mean people of color and women.

00:06:27
Although I do mean that but age Conservatives, we had a bunch of

00:06:31
conservatives on stage, you know, just it was just it's just

00:06:34
an opportunity and I can't, I can't have conservatives the

00:06:37
code. I did notice that I invited a

00:06:39
lot. I can't I did last year I did.

00:06:40
It was sort of a Democratic primary element was I asked?

00:06:44
I asked, I asked, I asked, I asked I asked.

00:06:46
Yes, I got a lot of NOS. Zero Esperanza Santas, would you

00:06:50
like? Yeah, yeah, I mean that's the

00:06:57
problem. Right?

00:07:00
You would have had to have been. Well, I would you have done that

00:07:02
interview, I would have asked him directly, and when he was

00:07:04
factually inaccurate pointed out like everybody else.

00:07:07
I want, I'd like to get to what his mentality certainly, as he

00:07:10
was discussed a lot. Like I forgot who was talking

00:07:13
about how good he is. I think is Bob Iger at, you

00:07:16
know, the way he presents himself.

00:07:17
One of them was taught. Yeah, I remember them.

00:07:19
Try to remember, who said it you what was I think?

00:07:21
I thought it was about your butt.

00:07:22
Well, I mean, I agree. Certainly has a very interested.

00:07:24
I wanted one Santas because obviously everything's happened

00:07:28
with Disney and, you know, Successor.

00:07:30
Fuck that one up. Yeah, but actually does, he's

00:07:32
doing just fine. So you know.

00:07:35
Yeah. Wash is just the world still

00:07:36
there. Yeah, it's fine.

00:07:37
And their numbers were fine. They're actually their parks are

00:07:40
doing really well. You know, I want to divide

00:07:42
because I love I really have like talking to me over the

00:07:44
years and he's a little bit unplugged which says you can

00:07:46
season strong. He was my, my favorite just like

00:07:49
raw Charisma. Yeah, and also, he was like, oh

00:07:52
this, okay, that this is going to, he never would have talked.

00:07:55
Well, no, he did. He was always a really good

00:07:56
interview as a CEO, but now he's like, could give a fuck.

00:07:59
And it's like here. Let me tell you what.

00:08:01
I actually think who out performed expectations or let's

00:08:05
talk the clinical. Honestly people ask me that all

00:08:07
the time. I thought they all were very

00:08:09
good. I didn't find any of the

00:08:10
interviews like, oh, that sucked, you know, sometimes many

00:08:13
years that happens, but like Carly fiorina was just terrible.

00:08:17
For example, we got into a bit of a, of a, of a beef testy

00:08:21
thing going on but you know, I thought they were all great.

00:08:24
I can't think of one, I thought Cuban was, it was all people.

00:08:27
I'd like to talk to I actually programmed.

00:08:29
Because of people I like to talk, but I didn't program

00:08:32
people, I didn't like to talk to, you know what I mean?

00:08:35
I was like, oh, you know, I did ask Marc Andreessen he said no.

00:08:38
Yeah, I can way I think was the answer for that one.

00:08:41
Well, because and what's the reason for that, you think I

00:08:43
mean, he just feels I'm whatever he's doing now is little Act of,

00:08:46
you know, victim and right-wing. The, I don't know what he's

00:08:50
doing. What do you say on stage?

00:08:52
You certain stage? The people that Marc Andreessen.

00:08:55
It said the text set still like to because of Stockholm

00:08:57
syndrome. Do that was when there was an

00:08:59
article He said that many years ago.

00:09:01
Yeah. But I guess he's a through that,

00:09:02
you know, I knew him really well and he's been on stage at Cody's

00:09:05
give animate. The reason I want to have me,

00:09:06
gave me amazing interviews. We also had Bill girly coming,

00:09:09
but his mom died, and he was going to give this amazing

00:09:12
presentation. I love Bill girly.

00:09:14
Such a big thing for we haven't always agreed.

00:09:15
We used to argue about Uber all the time, but I was, I was sorry

00:09:20
that one didn't happen. That was one.

00:09:21
I'm really I'm hoping to have them on my new podcast because I

00:09:24
think he's a really interesting thinker and open to, you know,

00:09:28
he's an adult, you know. No, he's an adult like some of

00:09:31
these people, they're like, they do calculations like why should

00:09:34
I do it? I can you know go on Joe Rogan

00:09:36
and they'll just suck up every word I say and say it's

00:09:38
fantastic so they don't some people want to be challenged,

00:09:41
some people don't. And I have the people who like

00:09:43
being single Bill girly was my first article.

00:09:45
When I put up the pay wall has been very generous and is always

00:09:48
open. You don't have to agree with

00:09:50
him. I've gotten testing notes from

00:09:52
him or salty notes from him, but, you know, I want it again.

00:09:55
I wanted big thinkers, I would hope to bring back merrymaker,

00:09:58
but she was at her, Was she had scheduled something, she had

00:10:02
gone every year to code and are most years to code and given

00:10:05
this amazing internet translating from, from observing

00:10:10
it, I mean, it seemed like you guys were both.

00:10:13
I mean, maybe Scott more than you but we're very happy with

00:10:15
how Evan Spiegel the snap Co performed.

00:10:18
I mean he was just coming off of that earnings call.

00:10:21
Wait and say anything did a good job?

00:10:23
Yeah, I mean I don't know you're hiding the right, right?

00:10:26
Yeah and I thought Scott that last question about fatherhood

00:10:28
really shook him up. He wasn't Expecting it.

00:10:30
That's why I like Scott there he'll ask some right Outta left.

00:10:33
Brooke Brooke was like booing it.

00:10:35
I broke a it was a funny one. It's like I mean it's fun to

00:10:39
have those Outta left field. So I like Scott's in there but

00:10:42
he was tough on him. He was tough on him.

00:10:44
About a couple things. I was, I was I actually talked

00:10:46
to Scott, he's usually asks, those out of left field

00:10:48
questions, but he has some very pertinent management and stock

00:10:51
questions that I thought. Yeah, it's a pretty pivotal

00:10:53
moment for the company. How have you seen by the way?

00:10:56
You know, from the beginning when it was allthingsd up till

00:10:58
now the like Jim demeanor of the execs as they, you know,

00:11:02
approach these interviews. I mean, was it a bit Freer in

00:11:05
the past? And now, there's so much more

00:11:07
coached that they not. Not these people, I invited

00:11:09
people who weren't that way, who aren't going to.

00:11:12
I would, they weren't I wasn't having it, and they knew I

00:11:14
wasn't having it. And so, like, Mark Cuban wasn't

00:11:17
going to try to try to talking point.

00:11:20
But what about Sundar, Sundar pichai?

00:11:21
I mean, I feel like he's good at is, I know what you enjoy in the

00:11:26
moment then afterwards. I'm like, what did he say like,

00:11:29
well, It's true. You got a glimpse into him.

00:11:31
Now let me just say he's like that off the Record.

00:11:34
He's like that, you know, he's very first of all, he's a lovely

00:11:37
man. He's a very lovely sweet man and

00:11:40
he's not like the founders. I can tell you that and so who

00:11:44
it could be very difficult and just difficult.

00:11:47
And we've had them on stage, we have them together.

00:11:48
One of the, I think the first code we had them together but I

00:11:51
thought it was just interesting for people to see these people

00:11:53
and action, and he's just by Nature a cautious person.

00:11:58
So, I think it was he wasn't trying To spin necessarily.

00:12:01
It's he's very deliberative and so I want people to even if he

00:12:05
doesn't answer the way you want him to or get news.

00:12:07
Although by the way, Eric plenty of news, you're welcome, like

00:12:12
it's funny. Now I've totally evolved into

00:12:14
one of these people who's happy to have them for like The Vibes

00:12:17
rather than the news. It's funny how they answer,

00:12:21
right? Exactly what they're saying.

00:12:22
Right, exactly what they are. How they think about things

00:12:25
here. Let me give you an example.

00:12:26
Now, I'll help you. When I said here's a question.

00:12:29
Tasks are Twitter. He said, absolutely not.

00:12:33
He made a face and he was like, I wouldn't stay away from that

00:12:35
piece of shit. You know what I mean?

00:12:36
That kind of thing, right? And as Pinterest, oh my God, he

00:12:39
was so fun. So what now we, mais mind,

00:12:41
Pinterest ideas. Yeah, that was the worst

00:12:43
handling of a single question. I think anybody, he can't, he's

00:12:46
such a bad poker player. Yeah, I did it on purpose,

00:12:49
proceeding it with Twitter because then Pinterest was

00:12:52
second that we planned, right? So there's smart because we knew

00:12:55
he went so big on denying Twitter.

00:12:57
And then when she says of Interest, Obviously there was a

00:13:00
truthiness to it that it would seem like a real liar if you

00:13:03
went so big and then he was caught.

00:13:05
So it was it was well-structured question.

00:13:07
I also know that he doesn't like that other people don't mind

00:13:10
lying to me to my face. Steve Jobs, love to do it like I

00:13:13
am not making a phone Cara, I don't know what you're talking

00:13:16
about next year, here's our phone.

00:13:18
Well, I enjoyed that because you brought that up to Tim Cook Tim

00:13:21
Cook gave this elaborate defensive Steve Jobs saying that

00:13:25
basically, oh Steve hadn't committed to doing the phone yet

00:13:28
because he wasn't sold on the carrier.

00:13:29
Hers is UK. It was a funny.

00:13:31
Like why do you need to? Like it's like he was okay.

00:13:34
Yeah but I did that might be true.

00:13:37
They might, he might have been struggling with them for a long

00:13:39
time but they were still working on the he's still right?

00:13:41
Because he was working on a phone.

00:13:43
So I asked him. I went back and looked and I

00:13:45
said are you working on a phone? I don't know if you're going to

00:13:47
launch it, but is that an important thing for you?

00:13:49
I was very specific. I'm very specific, so they can't

00:13:52
weasel out of it, but in that case, yes, I saw him do that,

00:13:55
that's fine. Whatever I want to go back to

00:13:57
this idea of them, becoming a bit more closed off.

00:13:59
Time went on. I mean what do you think that's

00:14:01
a result of? Is it just the pr apparatus

00:14:04
around them getting to be more controlling?

00:14:06
They're just being more coach, just the tech, you know, posture

00:14:09
being so much more, you know, present in the National

00:14:13
conversation that these guys are aware that.

00:14:14
If they say things that can fuck up larger processes, I think

00:14:18
there's a bit of regulatory, you know, actually these are people

00:14:20
who talk more than most people more than most corporate people.

00:14:23
So that's to start with. They are that way.

00:14:26
But one thing that they do that I think is interesting is It's

00:14:29
not all of them. Some of them, I don't think

00:14:31
Mark, Cuban's changed and Iota really over the years, they

00:14:34
become surrounded by people who look them up and down and agree

00:14:38
with them be a minute. And so when someone challenges

00:14:41
and I don't think they know what to do, and I think they become,

00:14:44
you know, they get in these if your watch succession, one of

00:14:46
the things that I think is really a Jeanette, I know the

00:14:48
Creator's really that I talked about this, these spaces are in

00:14:51
there all Kashmir and comfort, but they get smaller and

00:14:54
smaller, and smaller over the years.

00:14:56
And so they're very comfortable and expensive, but Hermetically

00:15:00
sealed. And so a lot of these people are

00:15:02
surrounded by people who agree with them violently and so, and

00:15:06
because they get paid, they get, they get paid and they benefit

00:15:10
from those people, you know, Mark, you're so smart.

00:15:12
Of course, don't listen to Kara like and I've had some really

00:15:15
good points. He should have listened to right

00:15:17
over the years. And, you know, I've had

00:15:19
encounters like that with Mark Zuckerberg where I say that was

00:15:21
stupid and he's like, what are you talking about?

00:15:23
Everyone agrees. I'm like everyone who pays you

00:15:24
agrees like everything you say because you're in charge of

00:15:27
this. I don't work for you.

00:15:29
And so, So I think that's what happens more as they get richer

00:15:31
and richer and more Des involved with actual people, which they

00:15:36
go no from the plane, with the nannies to the, you know,

00:15:39
whatever, you know, from the plane to the car to their house,

00:15:42
to the security, they all security.

00:15:44
Now, they never did, it's a different life and then some of

00:15:48
them get out, right? Like, Bill Gates is much better

00:15:50
since he left, you know, since he's doing other things.

00:15:52
He's very easy to talk to. Actually, he was very difficult

00:15:55
to talk to, he was always difficult, that was not nothing

00:15:57
to do well, but You just learned how to talk actually, right?

00:16:02
But if they're by Nature like that they're going to behave

00:16:05
like that, right? If they're by Nature like any

00:16:07
Jesse was there since he was in high College, he's been an

00:16:10
Amazon since he's called, he loves his little country of

00:16:12
Amazon so he's he believes in it.

00:16:15
He actually does. And if you understand that about

00:16:17
them, I don't I think reporters healing to go oh the lying.

00:16:21
Oh talking points. I don't think that's.

00:16:23
You have to understand them as people.

00:16:25
And I think most reporters have a have a tendency to To not

00:16:30
assume their people, right? So I mean certainly I'm slowly

00:16:34
evolving to that. Oh no, it reflects their

00:16:36
personalities in some way. I mean I really like Twitter is

00:16:39
sometimes an interesting lens into these people's minds are in

00:16:43
a Securities. Jeff Bezos, right?

00:16:45
I mean, this guy forgetting. I was like, she doesn't like the

00:16:47
queen. Let us look like the fucking

00:16:48
Queen was weird. Was it tells police.

00:16:51
He's literally complains about tone and woke culture and then

00:16:55
he just woke this lady out the door, whatever.

00:16:57
Yeah, it's incredible. And it's Is it since he stepped

00:17:00
down as CEO, he's really let his Twitter game Fly, and it's so

00:17:04
much fun to watch. I mean, I really want to

00:17:06
encourage it from him. I do too.

00:17:07
Although I have to say, I don't think he's very good at it and I

00:17:10
know, but that's why it's not true.

00:17:12
He seems not very smart. He seems reactive which is again

00:17:16
incredible because this is a guy who was built up as like the

00:17:18
great business leader of our time and deserves credit for a

00:17:21
lot of things that Amazon is. But like you imagine that

00:17:24
everything that comes out of his mouth is like a pearl.

00:17:26
And in fact, it's just like, not, they're not posted.

00:17:29
Posters I can't imagine Bezos has been consuming the internet

00:17:33
sort of, in the constant I think it probably is oh I think he's

00:17:36
paying and he's like playing catch up but it feels like some

00:17:39
of these things seem, such obvious, like cell phones that

00:17:42
if you love spending time on any case, it's interesting because

00:17:45
he now just an inside his thing, he was always argumentative and

00:17:48
very difficult to talk to in terms of, he has a sort of ha

00:17:51
ha, laughs personalities, very difficult and sometimes

00:17:55
unpleasant person, right? And so one at a time, I

00:17:58
remember, I wrote something. And the Wall Street Journal,

00:18:00
they had gotten into trouble for paying people for promotion,

00:18:04
promoting products on the site and they had always had the

00:18:07
image of everything's equal. We're just putting it out there

00:18:10
and, you know, so they got extra money, if you put, I don't know,

00:18:14
some shampoo in a more prominent search position.

00:18:17
Essentially, because back then, this is early Amazon days but it

00:18:20
was getting payment from. It was merchandising is what it

00:18:23
was paid merchandising payments, which I had covered retail for

00:18:26
seven years and that's the end cap.

00:18:28
People pay to be in Supermarkets and cap, right?

00:18:31
Basic and I use that compares. I'm like, I covered this is the

00:18:33
end cap. This is what he's doing, and

00:18:34
then and he promised not to, he had I had quotes or he said, I'd

00:18:38
never do that. But I've never do it.

00:18:40
Retailed us and he did it. And I pointed out, he came up to

00:18:43
me to Ted and he started yelling at me, like, that's not good.

00:18:46
I am doing that and I was like, you know, relax, you know

00:18:49
sweetheart but you know, it's just it was really interesting.

00:18:52
So he's he is obstreperous. He's just hidden the

00:18:54
obstreperous - and we had we had a very big argument and then

00:18:58
sort of okay. But he hasn't that is his

00:19:01
personality. What you're seeing on Twitter is

00:19:03
what he's what I experienced back in the day, when he was

00:19:07
calling, we're constantly because he wanted press.

00:19:09
I think you also hit on a particular, a particular sore

00:19:12
spot for Tech Executives, which is when you point out that their

00:19:15
Innovations are actually things that the regular world, the

00:19:18
regular world has been doing for decades.

00:19:20
I find that they get. It sounds to me, like he was

00:19:22
just Veena, like, they were, and I'm right here.

00:19:24
Justina like they are. I think that's more, not that

00:19:27
they'd, he was an Innovative, but that he was doing.

00:19:29
Exactly what he said he wouldn't do.

00:19:31
And he was just like them. And so, one of my things with

00:19:34
all these people, when I covered them, they, you know, they sort

00:19:36
of think they hung the moon and aren't they Innovative?

00:19:38
And you know what, a banker's Innovative.

00:19:41
So is a pharmacist. If big Pharma is innovative,

00:19:44
they've come up with some pretty cool drugs and also problems.

00:19:47
And so the problem with tech is they get so licked up and down

00:19:51
all day long that they think they hung the moon.

00:19:53
And so not all of your finger there.

00:19:55
I mean, the tech media got so - like it got boring.

00:19:59
Well, I think I started it, but I agree.

00:20:02
I thought we were all gonna die because you were you sort of

00:20:05
burned down Mark Zuckerberg a little bit, right?

00:20:07
I mean, your Karissa, yeah, I mean - right.

00:20:10
Yeah. But I mean do you but now are

00:20:13
you, you're sort of, you're going back to the, why is my

00:20:15
think that was exactly the right thing to point out what was

00:20:18
happening to talk about? What about now?

00:20:20
Like, what's your mood at the moment?

00:20:21
I still, I still have all kinds of problems.

00:20:23
I think - compact not - its skeptical.

00:20:25
You have to be skeptical. I think sometimes snarky is

00:20:28
what's the point and it doesn't Fair.

00:20:30
It's actually unfair as you have to listen to their argument and

00:20:35
and you can't just assume out of hand that they're lying to you.

00:20:38
And I think one of the things I learned is reporter over the

00:20:41
years. I used to think, oh, they're

00:20:43
lying to me. What are they lying to me about

00:20:45
now? I think what are they lying to

00:20:46
themselves, right. What do they have?

00:20:49
That's right. And the second part is what do

00:20:52
they have to say what has to come out about them?

00:20:54
They what do they have to present?

00:20:56
You know Steve case for example this is way back used to always

00:20:59
Have to be right in the end. And he often was, by the way,

00:21:02
he's very prescient. If you look at some old Steve

00:21:04
case stuff, the stuff he wrote the last book, he wrote was just

00:21:08
dead on, is what's happening. Now, this was a long time ago,

00:21:11
he has a new book out, I think coming, but he always has to be

00:21:14
right in the end and I like that, I just as long as you know

00:21:17
it someone like I'm trying to think of someone who would be

00:21:20
Ted leonsis. I'm just using AOL people, he

00:21:22
really likes to be liked that was critical.

00:21:24
If he wasn't liked, he didn't, he felt uncomfortable.

00:21:27
And so if you figure out psychologically, What there the

00:21:30
thing that's going on with them, it's it's very it's a lot easier

00:21:34
to see them as people. And I don't mean to say, they're

00:21:36
not powerful, they don't aren't manipulative.

00:21:38
The companies aren't damaging. It's just that I think we spent

00:21:41
a lot of time on the stuff that doesn't matter and don't pay

00:21:44
attention to the stuff that does.

00:21:46
And that's, that's what I mean, skeptical is what you need to

00:21:48
be. Not snarky and not mean, not.

00:21:51
There's no. When I was going after Marissa

00:21:53
Mayer, I my premise was she is not qualified to run this

00:21:56
company. And also this company is headed

00:21:59
for the A sheep anyway, and there's bullshit about Reviving.

00:22:02
It is bullshit, and all they own is Ali, Baba, and that's what

00:22:05
happened and saying. You don't, you don't look back

00:22:07
at all that your Marissa coverage and think it might have

00:22:08
been a little bit mean, no, go read it.

00:22:10
No, no, I didn't. I never wrote about her clothes.

00:22:13
I never wrote about her. There were a lot of member that

00:22:17
glamour fashion, shoot. Everyone went on.

00:22:19
Yeah. Vanity Fair something.

00:22:21
The centerfold, I didn't write about marks looks ever.

00:22:23
I never wrote about his personal life.

00:22:25
The other thing that I remember once she was late, too, A

00:22:29
meeting at Cohn and all these people she was it wasn't a very

00:22:33
good CEO calling back clients. That was everybody did that

00:22:36
she's like speaker Yahoo right? You're right, we want depiction

00:22:42
of this but she wasn't it wasn't a depiction.

00:22:45
They they set it on the record. It wasn't these the you know the

00:22:47
heads of all these ad agencies, she she goes to them quite a lot

00:22:50
and okay that's that's she needs to.

00:22:54
You can't do that when you're in a business.

00:22:55
And so so she was late to a meeting.

00:22:59
Carbon had a habit of doing that, by the way to remember

00:23:01
that? She was, but she missed it and

00:23:03
because she was sleeping because she had jet.

00:23:05
I remember you writing about this.

00:23:07
I didn't write about it. I didn't I didn't because one I

00:23:11
thought maybe she's pregnant. I thought maybe she's missed a

00:23:14
meeting and nikesh Arora, Miss dozens of them.

00:23:17
So why should I call her out? When he used to do it all the

00:23:21
time. And so there was, there was a

00:23:23
lot, we didn't we didn't pick on, we only picked on the

00:23:27
business aspects of There are the problems we did not pick

00:23:31
them. Personally, we did not think

00:23:32
they were had necessary. Except for Travis, I do think he

00:23:36
had mal-intent, we didn't assume that they were bad.

00:23:39
People necessarily they just were most of them aren't by the

00:23:43
way. Yeah, a big question of tech

00:23:45
coverage that you're getting at, which is just do you think the

00:23:48
public and the press assesses, these companies based on a

00:23:52
score, keeping of their policy decisions and moral Rights and

00:23:55
Wrongs? Or do you think it's?

00:23:56
It's very personality-driven people's feelings.

00:23:59
Mark, Zuckerberg, see the Public's feelings about Mark

00:24:02
Zuckerberg, is him to drive their perception of Facebook so

00:24:05
much more than their understanding, of all the little

00:24:08
scandals that negates to, but it happened to Gates and then he

00:24:10
changed it because of all the philanthropy and happens to

00:24:13
people. And so Gates has shifted His

00:24:15
Image, right? Because all the really

00:24:18
tremendous philanthropies doing. It doesn't leave behind what he

00:24:21
did. Same thing with a queen like

00:24:22
today, I was watching Twitter was really interesting and you

00:24:25
have those who are like, which is fantastic, and then there's

00:24:27
others like, hey, Colonial dames Mmmmm right.

00:24:30
You know what I mean? Like, I don't forgive her for

00:24:31
that, and I get both sides, like you can't leave behind the past

00:24:35
that you had. Now she's not particularly

00:24:37
responsible for it and individually, but she was the

00:24:40
queen and presided over a lot of really brutal stuff.

00:24:43
Lord bound button and India. All kinds of stuff you can carry

00:24:46
two visions in your head of people, right.

00:24:48
I think, the reason everyone was paying attention to Mark,

00:24:51
Zuckerberg is because it's the biggest that's all, it's the

00:24:53
biggest, and it's the most careless, it was the most

00:24:56
careless or it has been. And so if it's the biggest, it

00:24:59
gets the The tension and they have to, that's what I was

00:25:01
trying to get at with several people.

00:25:03
Is like, they don't consider themselves powerful.

00:25:05
It's really a style were pirates.

00:25:07
Somewhat was almost comedic. They were all because they're

00:25:09
also worried about antitrust which was a big theme, you know

00:25:11
what I mean? Yeah I'm sure they're you were

00:25:13
good about servicing that but they were like there was a part

00:25:16
where Sundar was almost celebrating how poorly they were

00:25:19
doing in a cloud. Because somebody asked about

00:25:21
Cloud. It's like, you don't have enough

00:25:22
market. Share it.

00:25:23
It's like, see we're not a monopoly like don't worry about

00:25:25
it. I know it was like, do you see

00:25:28
as normally you think of them? Is like right?

00:25:30
I know but but normally they're Shilling you know how good they

00:25:33
are but like the big text or anything one percent of retail,

00:25:36
right. And I'm like 53 percent of

00:25:39
online Commerce. Yes.

00:25:41
But one percent of retail and so, you know, it's whatever.

00:25:45
As long as you, I like to hear how they defend themselves.

00:25:48
It's interesting. Yeah, it's always a Dance.

00:25:50
I mean, I remember, you know, covering snap when Facebook was

00:25:53
just, you know, reaming them with copying all their features

00:25:56
and everyone was telling me, you know, Facebook just wants to

00:25:58
kill snap and as No, they don't. They want snap to be there

00:26:01
because they're the perfect response to the fact that

00:26:03
Facebook is a monopoly. It's like, how could be a

00:26:05
monopoly this other company exists that has 200 million

00:26:08
daily users. But then of course, Tick-Tock

00:26:10
shows up with the thing that actually works, right?

00:26:12
And and then of course, marks got cards that say China.

00:26:15
China, if you notice, I didn't interview them in 2018, he was

00:26:18
already doing it China, China, China, China.

00:26:21
And by the way, I tend to agree with them on that but he was

00:26:23
doing it for his interests versus the real threat of.

00:26:27
But also remember this is probably after He you know,

00:26:29
spent that you're learning Mandarin and wanted to expand

00:26:32
Facebook into China. If that fell on its face is like

00:26:37
forget the national security thing.

00:26:39
It just like it's not a fair competitive landscape.

00:26:41
Anyway, I wanted to go back. You might agree with these tech

00:26:43
people. Sometimes you know, that's the

00:26:45
problem. Now, I'm allowed to, I can admit

00:26:47
it. You know, you can you miss your

00:26:48
opinions right? We did that.

00:26:50
That was the design of recode. All right.

00:26:52
I know that was the original design because I told you, what

00:26:55
are you? I copy you.

00:26:56
You know, it's good, it's good. We were at the Wall Street

00:26:58
Journal. I wrote a story about webvan and

00:27:01
I was like I did a ton of reporting and I was like this is

00:27:03
a fucking mathematical disaster like and doesn't and I don't

00:27:07
mean to say they're not going to be food delivery.

00:27:08
I don't mean to say that someday when everything aligns that,

00:27:11
it's not a great idea. But this particular company is a

00:27:14
mathematical fucking disaster and I was going to say something

00:27:16
like that and the journal and the editor sent it back to me.

00:27:19
It's like can you get someone else to say this?

00:27:21
I'm like no no I'm right I did the reporting reported analysis

00:27:25
and I called the to be sure statement to they always put it

00:27:29
to be sure. Sure, some people don't think

00:27:31
that, you know, what is one sexual assault away from the end

00:27:38
of their business, but they do not look like that hate the TV

00:27:41
shows, right? So it recode, I designed the

00:27:45
editorial is never a to be fuckin sure.

00:27:47
Sensei what you think. So, Peter Kafka was very good at

00:27:50
this, he'd write us, he'd break a story.

00:27:52
And he said, okay, this is what they mean, this is what they're

00:27:54
saying this is, you know, he would give you his knowledge and

00:27:58
experience. Based on reporting and then he

00:28:01
could say, like that's not. And one thing that drives me

00:28:03
crazy is often I'll say, I'll make a prediction about

00:28:08
something. It's not a prediction, it's

00:28:09
based on reported analysis and a several times.

00:28:13
Like, oh, you got that, right? I'm like, no, no.

00:28:15
I just just like, as if I was, I wanted to be a CIA analyst and

00:28:19
so I just did the work made us look like this when you could

00:28:24
get Anonymous sources. So that's what we did.

00:28:27
That's all we did it recode. As we like, Okay, Comcast is

00:28:30
saying this but really this is what's happening.

00:28:31
I think Puck does a great job of it actually you're right you're

00:28:34
on a reporter podcast and we're talking about hard questions.

00:28:37
So what's the, what's the status of recode?

00:28:40
I mean, it feels like re codes business is largely dependent on

00:28:43
the comp. No, no, it has nothing.

00:28:44
It's not affiliate hired so many great.

00:28:46
So many great reporters have come up through it, I guess is

00:28:49
recode succeeding, how would you think it's not linked anymore?

00:28:53
It's not people have, it's not the code is code is separate.

00:28:56
Yeah, from Rico. Okay, it's not the same.

00:28:59
That was when we had the recode business by itself that we sold

00:29:03
to box and then the code conference went into their

00:29:06
events division, whether they're going to do, the cut does

00:29:09
something, it's all in the events business now so it's not

00:29:11
affiliate it's not within that PL anymore.

00:29:15
And so the pnl of recode or the staff of recode is within box, I

00:29:19
think, I think that's that's.com and so that's where it is.

00:29:23
So it's not the code conference isn't financially lifting, the

00:29:26
other one and then Vox decides if they need more Tech.

00:29:29
Reporters if they can make enough, add money or this and

00:29:31
that I've stopped working really for recode when I started doing

00:29:35
the podcast, me and I took an intern and I went, I was running

00:29:38
it and I said, Jim I don't want to run, I don't like management

00:29:41
very much. I'm not bad at it but I don't

00:29:44
like it and I want to do this podcast thing and I think it's

00:29:47
going to be a big business. And so since I already had a

00:29:50
business that made a lot of money for them there, they tend

00:29:52
to believe me, right? They tend to give me the chance

00:29:55
to try things, and so I literally took it in turn.

00:29:58
He's now tweets. Greetings all time.

00:30:00
I love him. He's grow Noah:.

00:30:01
Yeah, he was great in that regard.

00:30:06
I'm like, I'm not going to run this anymore, you'll find

00:30:08
someone else and he was like, oh oh, because they'd like to keep

00:30:11
you in that job forever, right? And so, I was like, I'm going to

00:30:15
do this and I'm going to make you tons of money and it's make

00:30:17
sense of money. It makes sense about it.

00:30:18
And so that's that's all. And so, the podcast is in the

00:30:22
podcast of it, the lesson you learn you're saying about

00:30:24
yourself is sort of you wanted to be the Creator rather than

00:30:27
the manager I want to do. What I want to do, I don't know

00:30:30
what else to say. I just like it was going to be a

00:30:33
manager and you no longer I didn't really it just I had to

00:30:36
do it because that's the way it is.

00:30:38
You know, if when you're running things I mean, don't you like

00:30:40
working by yourself now? Isn't it?

00:30:41
Nice, I miss colleagues. I like things.

00:30:44
You know. Know I have a lot.

00:30:46
I have a ton on the podcast and then I like being in charge.

00:30:50
Certainly, I like that. Part of it.

00:30:51
I like my voice being sort of the deciding one and I can take,

00:30:55
you know. Yeah, I wanted to go back to

00:30:57
Andy jassy. I know he's sort of veered off.

00:30:59
That what did you make of him? Like to me, I mean you really

00:31:04
tried to give him the opportunity to say.

00:31:06
This is your company now, like, how are you making it yours and

00:31:09
he almost was like, oh, there's a lot of people who run it.

00:31:12
Like, I don't know. What did you make of that hole?

00:31:13
That gives me insight into him, doesn't it?

00:31:16
Jeff Bezos would have been, you know, he's narcissist in charge,

00:31:19
especially I noticed he's not a narcissist, I noticed it

00:31:23
probably will be. He reminds me a great deal of

00:31:25
such a Nadella, actually, who now has come into his own and

00:31:28
we'll take credit. But the first interview I did

00:31:30
was Sasha, after he got the Zeo ship was not a very good

00:31:33
interview, he was very deferential to previous

00:31:37
administration. Do you think that worry, they'll

00:31:38
get it taken away. It's like, it's not firmly in

00:31:41
their hands. Yeah, they're sort of like I

00:31:43
need to still worried about the old boss.

00:31:46
You know, the stock is down. They've got a lot of challenges,

00:31:48
there's regulatory scrutiny. He's been very aggressive behind

00:31:52
the scenes on this regulatory stuff.

00:31:54
Jeff never went to Washington. The sky goes all the time from.

00:31:57
I mean, I hear about him here all the time.

00:31:59
I think he's a much. He's a different personality and

00:32:02
I think it's very difficult if you're not the founder, because

00:32:03
when you're the founder, you can be any kind of asshole, you

00:32:05
want, right? Because you're the founder and

00:32:07
you're the God. And so, if you're the second

00:32:09
person, it's harder to hold on to like, say, it's interesting

00:32:13
as Sundar is the second person. Really, I wouldn't I wouldn't

00:32:16
count Eric Schmidt because I thought that was a Troika.

00:32:19
So I chose the second person. So it Ted sir.

00:32:22
And O's, although he was there very early and so's Jesse.

00:32:25
And so, I think they're not as confident as you think in there.

00:32:29
And they've got a sort of, Tim did a great job of it by the

00:32:31
way, think about inheriting from jobs, oh my God, nothing but

00:32:36
failure. Right.

00:32:37
There's if it goes well they're like oh it was jobs and if it

00:32:39
goes not wellö, cook sucks. And there was a lot of shake out

00:32:42
of Executives. Then several left, several big

00:32:45
Executives. Although, the main team I said

00:32:48
acute was backstage, I was like, oh, you were still here, still

00:32:51
here Eddy cue. A lot of the, a lot of the the

00:32:53
team is still in place, which is interesting.

00:32:55
But there was a huge amount of shake up before he found his

00:32:57
way, right before he found. Sway and he's, you know, 10x

00:33:01
that company's value, which is amazing.

00:33:03
I mean, with Jesse, I mean, this fits into sort of a theme.

00:33:06
I was getting out before like the union question, I thought

00:33:09
he's sort of secured himself and that he couldn't get out of it

00:33:11
fast enough. Yeah, but like, there's a

00:33:14
different sort of version of reporting.

00:33:16
Maybe. I don't know what we see on some

00:33:18
like Aaron Sorkin show or something where you just like.

00:33:21
If you think the union things the wrong thing they're doing,

00:33:23
like, you never move off of it. Or like, how do you think sort

00:33:26
of philosophically about that? I think he thinks that, you

00:33:29
know, In-seok. I think he thinks that demented

00:33:31
use the questioner like how long you like make them.

00:33:34
See you've got a point that Union suck, you know, what are

00:33:38
they done for me lately and I think they've done it to

00:33:41
themselves in many ways. Their if here's the two issues

00:33:45
is Amazon is paying people more, they do have better benefits

00:33:49
when they have gotten those through a union unions like to

00:33:51
sort of come, I got the Scout for you.

00:33:53
You know what I mean? The problem is which I point out

00:33:56
to him was the workers still then has no leverage whatsoever.

00:33:59
I know your sort of they rely on the kindness of billionaires

00:34:03
strangers, right? And there's reasons for them to

00:34:05
be nice. You keep people, you know you

00:34:08
you avoid regulatory scrutiny, the nicer, you are this and that

00:34:12
and maybe just in and of itself you build a better company.

00:34:14
People are actually happy there and so there's great arguments

00:34:18
to be made. What was interesting is

00:34:19
Christian Smalls showed up. I he called they called me from

00:34:22
the airport and he got there too late I would have like he was

00:34:25
there. He was great.

00:34:28
Yeah. But he but But and he does, he's

00:34:30
right? It's one, it's one Warehouse in

00:34:32
the country. It's this is as Scott points out

00:34:34
in today's pivot. It's not a, you know, it's not

00:34:37
the it's not the French Revolution happening.

00:34:39
It's just one same thing with Starbucks.

00:34:41
It's one store in wherever the heck that one story unionized.

00:34:44
And so I think what's I wanted to hear?

00:34:47
I think he thinks that I think he actually thinks that that

00:34:50
unions are useless. They're just a pain in the ass.

00:34:53
I don't think he's doing it because they are going to cost

00:34:55
them more money because I think what's going to what has to I

00:34:59
think Jesse and that case, I think the federal government

00:35:01
should just mandate $25 an hour, that's it done.

00:35:05
And then what do you need it? Union for and then you, then

00:35:09
unions have to reconfigure themselves into something that's

00:35:12
useful. So part of your answer is 0, the

00:35:14
amount. I'm going to hold them on.

00:35:15
It is how bad do I think the actual issue is versus service?

00:35:18
I want to think about it because I know he has a point.

00:35:21
He has he has a point at the same time.

00:35:24
He also is leaving out the very pertinent fact that they workers

00:35:28
have no Leverage. Around safety, they don't have

00:35:30
any transparency. They you know, the numbers that

00:35:34
they make them do you know, some of it of course is great fodder

00:35:36
for reporting, they have to pee in them, whatever they ha,

00:35:39
whatever. I think they don't have any

00:35:41
power, right? So that's what I find.

00:35:43
Interesting about it, not not whether Amazon pays an $18,

00:35:46
which is a much better wage than most people in retail margin.

00:35:49
Aren't you going to wait on this?

00:35:50
You just wrote a story about how like go pop tried to implement

00:35:53
Amazon's a sort of workplace conditions that like destroyed

00:35:57
the company. I don't know because they're bad

00:35:58
at it. Yeah, go puff, is is bad at it?

00:36:01
I mean, I don't know, there's a lot to.

00:36:03
There's a lot to unpack with this topic in general, I guess

00:36:06
we're not going to solve the union issue.

00:36:08
Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I guess what I would be

00:36:10
more interested in a be hearing from them is how the anti-union

00:36:14
argument has shifted from a lot of these companies.

00:36:16
Because back in the day, they used to say Union is going to

00:36:19
get in the way between the bosses and the employees and

00:36:21
we're a family. Well family together and you

00:36:24
don't want to know. No no because what Amazon is

00:36:26
very craftily done. In my opinion is they've said

00:36:29
Ed, you're not going to work at Amazon warehouse that much,

00:36:31
we're gonna help you get a job to do things that you really

00:36:33
want to do. So why would you want to waste

00:36:35
your time and your paycheck, an argument going into a union,

00:36:37
when this is just a, you know, some sort of a launching pad to

00:36:40
you, you know, starting your Instagram, you know, influence

00:36:43
your career as like a you know dog makeup purveyor.

00:36:46
I don't think they say that but yeah, I know it should be right.

00:36:48
Yeah. And that's why I find it very

00:36:50
interesting that Amazon basically has decided that we

00:36:52
have a transient Workforce. Yeah.

00:36:54
And so a union would slow that down.

00:36:56
Yeah. And I think that would affect

00:36:57
their business model. So I think You know, I thought

00:37:00
that movie nomadland was very good because she didn't hate the

00:37:03
work. She was doing but it wasn't.

00:37:05
He could have gone a very different way that movie.

00:37:07
I didn't write. I know I, you know, and they got

00:37:10
a lot of flack friend, very light Norma Rae that.

00:37:13
Correct? But it yeah it was very

00:37:15
confusing and very complex didn't have a moral answer.

00:37:18
It was good. Yeah.

00:37:20
And back to the journalists aspect of it.

00:37:22
I mean we've harped on this on the show before because I you

00:37:24
know, covered labor for the last 18 months.

00:37:26
I think journalists really fucked up the story around you.

00:37:29
Ian's and Amazon because they made it seem like it was going

00:37:31
to be a slam-dunk proposition and every Amazon warehouse in

00:37:34
the country was going to unionize and when it came down

00:37:36
to it, you know, the big one Alabama, was a failure, the one

00:37:39
in, you know that Christian Smalls LED that was a success

00:37:42
but it seems isolated right now. And so I think reporters need to

00:37:45
do a much better job of understanding the sentiment that

00:37:49
people in the warehouses have before you start pushing your

00:37:51
own personal political agenda. Like I am pro-union I don't mind

00:37:54
saying that. You know, I do think they are a

00:37:56
good thing. I don't necessarily agree with

00:37:57
you but I Reporters are have no, I'm not anti and I'm Pro.

00:38:01
Good union, but a lot of Union suck.

00:38:03
That's really what they want, a good weekend in this country,

00:38:05
but yeah, Union sent some, it is very strong, you know, the whole

00:38:10
episode. You know, who's good?

00:38:11
Entertainment? Unions are really interesting.

00:38:14
They have more power. They have more leverage, like

00:38:16
sectoral. Unions are super interesting.

00:38:17
General, certain ones do very well and so I think it's not the

00:38:22
worst thing in the world to say, maybe y'all should rethink.

00:38:24
If we are sitting there, telling the Billionaire's to rethink

00:38:26
their business, unions are big businesses to and have been over

00:38:28
the years. Rethink your fucking business

00:38:30
because it's declining. Yeah, your pitch.

00:38:33
Can I ask you though? Just on the topic of hard

00:38:35
questions, though? You see are an opinionated

00:38:38
person. And you do want to press these

00:38:39
people, how much do you think about where the audience

00:38:42
sentiment is? And whether they're going to go

00:38:43
along with you on this Frame because like, look, a lot of the

00:38:46
people there. It's big business, it's not

00:38:48
cheap going in this thing, so it's people that have means

00:38:51
they're probably going to be aligned to a degree with the

00:38:53
founders. I know there are people that ask

00:38:55
hard questions and shit usually for their own selfish reasons.

00:38:57
You know. Like, you know, why does Goal or

00:38:59
why does Apple not allow? Like I like my brother asking

00:39:03
about the private jets, although he certainly would like one for

00:39:05
himself but yeah, they're on door but do you ever worry like

00:39:09
okay, if I go on too long in this line I'm going to lose the

00:39:11
audience and we're not going to have you know the kind of

00:39:13
revealing conversation that I actually want to get.

00:39:15
No. Yeah I think it's interesting

00:39:17
because what I think I think I do do something that I think

00:39:20
others do not do is one. I don't follow along the

00:39:23
questions. I had them there but I don't I

00:39:25
don't follow a script very much and I go off when I hear

00:39:28
something. Like I listen to what I'm

00:39:30
talking about and I could go off on a tangent when there's

00:39:32
something interesting and I think I'm a little funny.

00:39:35
I think I'm funny and the way I skewer people is a little

00:39:38
funnier and, you know, says I think I'm funny, but I think I

00:39:41
am yours and you're good to cut. You cut in with a short thing

00:39:44
that says, no, that's not or like something quick.

00:39:47
So you don't want to over inserting yourself into it, but

00:39:49
you're checking them alone. When I started code, I was much

00:39:52
more snarky. And I would say, I hate to say

00:39:55
this about a woman, but shrill and sing about myself your

00:39:58
words. Yeah, weird.

00:39:59
Yeah, I was shrill and and I think I learned there's a better

00:40:03
way to interview and it without sucking up, there's a way to

00:40:06
have a comp a conversation when you're in a regular conversation

00:40:09
with someone. That's how I think about it.

00:40:11
You know like constantly attack people you don't constantly kiss

00:40:14
up to them and so one thing that I think I do do very well I'm a

00:40:18
good negar I'm really good - white man.

00:40:21
I'm sorry men in general but I want to ask about a couple code

00:40:25
and all things D moments from past because I you know I sort

00:40:28
of see them as Formative in the way that journalists approach

00:40:31
the relationship with CEOs. And one of them is obviously the

00:40:34
moment where you're interviewing the stock and he, you know, he

00:40:37
he starts sweating like buckets on their is you and Walter

00:40:40
talking about privacy. And you know this was their

00:40:43
starting to make their March towards share everything and and

00:40:46
you know people were uncomfortable with that and

00:40:47
suck. I mean really he must have had

00:40:49
some sort of condition at the time because the guy was

00:40:51
sweating so much and and you know, he took off his hoodie.

00:40:54
You told him to take it off right?

00:40:55
Or didn't you? I did.

00:40:56
Yeah, I did. Well because I was going to

00:40:58
faint. Had some knowledge he had

00:41:00
fainted before over from I don't maybe Owen been out of someone,

00:41:05
he had panic attacks of some sort, and at this company

00:41:08
meetings, he had gotten lightheaded many times.

00:41:11
And so I was aware of that and he and his face, you couldn't

00:41:14
see it from where you were. I don't think you were there but

00:41:17
yeah, no. See the video of it is his face.

00:41:20
You couldn't see it as face went white and I've seen people faint

00:41:23
and so I thought, oh my God, I will say it, and then he'll be

00:41:26
on the floor and I never have an interview again, right?

00:41:29
The calculation is like good moments.

00:41:30
But yeah, I killed the most promising and entrepreneur in

00:41:33
Tech. Push the doing xiety attack

00:41:35
would not be enough to like lean down and touch him.

00:41:38
And the hold I was like, it was all going in my brain.

00:41:40
I thought he might faint. I thought he might think.

00:41:42
Yeah. But you see I thought you

00:41:44
handled that in a very you know, I think comforting way but also

00:41:49
it wasn't like, I'm sorry for having asked you the questions

00:41:51
that may be led you to having a panic attack?

00:41:53
It was like, do you need a moment?

00:41:55
But we're going to continue down this line of questioning because

00:41:57
they're important and it Human. Because why do you know?

00:42:00
There's no reason to. I mean actually Walt was the one

00:42:02
asking the questions but I felt it was.

00:42:04
Someone said it was motherly, which is interesting.

00:42:06
I mean, I am a pair, I have a lot of kids but I just felt like

00:42:09
this guy is obviously in physical distress in my really

00:42:12
going to like kick him in the nuts.

00:42:13
Like I don't really feel like that was it and I wanted to stop

00:42:16
it because he didn't, he was beside himself, he didn't and he

00:42:20
didn't want to admit, he was beside himself because he was in

00:42:22
public, right? And so I wanted to take one of

00:42:25
the reasons I made the the jokes about the oh the Illuminati.

00:42:28
And that Reason I took that hoodie is because it gave him a

00:42:31
second to write but looking at me, so they weren't looking at

00:42:34
him and then he he calmed down, like he calmed down and he

00:42:38
needed that because when people are in those panic attacks, or

00:42:42
or if ain't, they just need a minute, he needed a minute.

00:42:45
And he was a very young CEO, and I think he was embarrassed.

00:42:49
I mean, he, he wrote me a lovely note, after it, I'll tell you

00:42:51
that he really did. And because one person wrote me

00:42:53
a mean note, but it was one of their VCS and then about to

00:42:58
never show another When a motion during an interview with career.

00:43:01
No, then he did the one of the Holocaust with me where he said

00:43:05
Holocaust deniers, don't mean to lie and got him in trouble.

00:43:08
Well, that was just a horrible line.

00:43:09
That was fed to him, that just should have no, no, no, no.

00:43:11
You think that was spontaneous that wasn't alone.

00:43:13
Here's what happened. I was at most even Rachel,

00:43:15
Whetstone sort of saying, Rachel was there?

00:43:17
Rachel was. And what was happening is I was

00:43:19
asking about Alex Jones. I was not asking about Holocaust

00:43:21
deniers, right? And I Mark some very fast on his

00:43:23
feet. That's the problem.

00:43:24
I don't blame Rachel. Yes, just not fastened with

00:43:26
this, is the whole ghost thing was intentional.

00:43:29
Yeah. Yeah, no problem.

00:43:32
Here's the problem. I was talking about Alex Jones.

00:43:35
I was never talking about Holocaust, and I think they

00:43:38
prepped a lot of stuff with him. And he said, I'll take this tool

00:43:41
off the shelf, I'll pick them because, right, that talked

00:43:44
about the Holocaust, reflects the principles.

00:43:47
Well, exactly. So he, they must have given him

00:43:49
six or seven. And he said, I'll pick this one,

00:43:51
which was a mistake, and because he's not good at his feet.

00:43:54
And so, again, it's not the pr person's fault, it's his fault.

00:43:57
So we were talking about how Stones he He felt cornered and

00:44:00
he knew he was wrong and he didn't want to say it.

00:44:02
And so he, so he the thing he did and I watched him do it.

00:44:05
It was really fascinating and he goes because he's so like one

00:44:08
thing about Mark is he literally watched the wheels work and

00:44:11
you're like, no, don't do that. Don't do that.

00:44:13
Don't do that. Like, you can see him because

00:44:15
he's so bad. He's not smooth in any way.

00:44:18
He may have gotten that he steals not good.

00:44:20
No, and so he's so not self aware of how to handle himself

00:44:24
in that regard. So he he said, oh, let me give

00:44:28
another example. They must have done that, like

00:44:30
switch if you're in trouble, switch.

00:44:31
And so, which is what people do and he goes as a Jew, he was

00:44:36
like, it was as a Jew, I will talk about Holocaust.

00:44:39
That was what he was trying to do.

00:44:40
Even I a Jewish person, I'm not, anybody would be horrified by

00:44:44
but nonetheless, I get what they were trying to do.

00:44:46
And they actually don't, I mean, they're like, as a Jew thing is

00:44:49
a smart starting point, but I didn't expect him to go off

00:44:51
into. We need to give credibility to

00:44:53
the worst for me that I would be most.

00:44:59
By I'm willing to stand by. That is what he was trying to

00:45:01
do, but he's so ham-handed that will then walk down and one of

00:45:05
the things I did, I think that I have to say this was my best

00:45:08
moment as an interviewer. Wow, she said Holocaust now this

00:45:11
was it this was he goes Holocaust deniers don't mean to

00:45:15
lie, right? Right, something like that, it's

00:45:18
nice and everything. There's so much there that's bad

00:45:22
as someone who's running the most important technology

00:45:24
company and Communications coming.

00:45:25
The planet thinks that you're like, right are you can't be

00:45:28
that stupid. Oh, there you, good faith.

00:45:30
Yes. And so, he said that and I could

00:45:33
have said you fucking idiot. Of course.

00:45:35
They mean to lie. That's their business, they

00:45:37
killed people and then they lied about it.

00:45:39
Right? What they mean to like it's how

00:45:41
it works. I didn't say a word.

00:45:43
I went ha. I think they do.

00:45:45
But go on go on. That was the best thing I've

00:45:49
ever done in an interview before it was because then it was a

00:45:52
word salad of Sanity, right? And you and what that show that

00:45:57
word salad was So, he thinks people, I want you to hear what,

00:46:02
how on his feet, what? He's thinking.

00:46:05
We've got a problem Houston, right?

00:46:07
Because this is how this is the man who runs?

00:46:09
Everything, can't figure it out. He's not educated enough.

00:46:12
So that was what I was trying to show is that he was inadequate

00:46:16
to the task at hand that he was responsible for and I think that

00:46:20
did that beautifully. Do you think if he had a more

00:46:23
Clear Vision of online discourse and and censorship and the role

00:46:27
that face we could play things It genuinely be different in the

00:46:30
way that they in the way that things are handled on that site

00:46:33
or just online conversation and Rancor in general.

00:46:37
Yes, because I think what they were doing in other countries,

00:46:39
not this country because we got lots of outlets.

00:46:41
I think the damage they didn't, I think Francis how can was 100%

00:46:45
right what they did. And and it's been reported by

00:46:46
lots of people people who are in their Burma, right everywhere.

00:46:51
Everywhere, where Facebook is the internet.

00:46:53
They have caused Untold damage because they're sloppy managers

00:46:57
of their platform. That is the in there they are.

00:46:59
Are not good stewards of the thing they think.

00:47:02
And I think it's fine in this country and it's not great in

00:47:04
this country by the way. And that's why when Marie

00:47:07
arrests are brought me that data in 2015.

00:47:09
That's why I flipped on Facebook.

00:47:11
I mean, I was never that friendly to them, but I was

00:47:13
like, oh, oh, and she's like, it's going to come here?

00:47:16
Where the canary in the coal? Mine she had proof, she had

00:47:19
data, and they ignored it, they ignored it.

00:47:21
And so I was like, ha, why are they ignoring it?

00:47:24
Why don't they do sing about it? That means they are like

00:47:27
cigarette manufacturers, which marked.

00:47:29
Benioff said in an interview with me on the last portion of

00:47:32
this interview. I mean I want to talk about sort

00:47:34
of the fascinating sort of headline of this year's code

00:47:38
where you had Tick-Tock, well I was well, Tick-Tock was a theme

00:47:42
but I was coming. It's been a surprise, this was

00:47:44
coming, she supposed to be Johnny, I've been reflecting on

00:47:55
Steve Jobs, you know, on the one hand sort of adds that you know

00:47:58
the Use person. It's like, oh, we're going to

00:48:00
talk about sort of the past and not the headlines, but but then

00:48:05
it ended up being a really moving thing.

00:48:06
I think you you teared up, right?

00:48:08
Which is unusual is, I mean, I haven't seen all your interviews

00:48:12
but I, that was a touching moment.

00:48:14
Yeah, I don't know what, what was your sort of goal with that

00:48:18
interview going into it? Exactly that not me tearing up

00:48:21
necessarily I wanted. I know that what everybody wants

00:48:25
in the moment. What's the iPhone?

00:48:26
What's Dynamic Island, the fuck here?

00:48:29
It's like, I should be another one next year.

00:48:30
That's what I thought, 12, we set.

00:48:32
Our first interview was I have had a premise of the death of

00:48:35
Steve Jobs. Was a very big deal, in Silicon

00:48:38
Valley, a changed. There's a other lesser.

00:48:41
People, whenever you think of him, he was still had a lot of

00:48:44
really cool ideas. And you could argue with him

00:48:47
about it, and he liked debate. That was one interesting thing.

00:48:51
Other CEOs, don't like debate, he really did.

00:48:53
You guys definitely treated him like Jesus up there.

00:48:55
It was no no, no. Yes you did.

00:48:58
No. Hey what?

00:48:59
Tim Cook literally said, like you think he told us not to ask?

00:49:03
What would Steve Jobs do so we got there, there was that sure.

00:49:06
They knew enough to say. Okay, we're not going to treat

00:49:08
them like Jesus but he definitely had a sort of but but

00:49:11
st. Like iconic figures he was an

00:49:14
iconic figure and so he was the first interview.

00:49:16
Let me just tell you, he didn't need to come to Cody.

00:49:18
Came to all of the ones we asked him today and he was, he gave as

00:49:22
good as he got. I'll tell you that he never he

00:49:24
lied. Sometimes I said, yeah, I lied,

00:49:26
he would argue you would say that's disingenuous Genuis he

00:49:29
goes isn't. Oh, I guess it is.

00:49:30
I'm really manipulate it. You, it was such a pleasure to

00:49:33
interview him because it was, it was challenged, you right?

00:49:37
Wasn't? He was given his.

00:49:38
But I have to say, he wasn't, it was always fascinating.

00:49:42
It was always it insightful, that, that paragraph.

00:49:44
He did at one of our codes about privacy, go watch that thing.

00:49:48
That's a smart fucking person. Well, they're all great.

00:49:50
I mean, they're fun to I mean, really, that's what I mean about

00:49:53
Mark Zuckerberg. He doesn't have a, he should

00:49:55
have finished college, or at least read more, or something,

00:49:58
not College cause If Cliff left College, Steve was well, read

00:50:01
and thought very carefully and that's what I wanted to talk

00:50:04
about. The second part was it was the

00:50:08
first interview was Steve and I wanted to talk about his legacy.

00:50:11
Like and so and the last part is this, my fucking conference.

00:50:13
I'll do whatever I want, right? I want to, I wanted it to be

00:50:16
sentimental. I wanted it to be remember when

00:50:20
this was a lot simpler. Remember, when you didn't all

00:50:23
have all this money and all this power remember when you were

00:50:26
making things for the beauty of them, when technology, LG was

00:50:29
delightful, and it wasn't about a sort of rapacious suckage of

00:50:33
information or mother or a great moment in that interview, you

00:50:36
had Walt. Mossberg asked this question,

00:50:40
you know, would would Steve Jobs have been as obsessed with the

00:50:43
markets as the world is about Apple today and Tim Cook totally

00:50:47
agrees with that and says you know he would have been very

00:50:49
product Focus but but to me it felt like such an implicit

00:50:53
critique of Tim Cook that he is this Steward of a company.

00:50:58
That's So, rooted making money, I think they do.

00:51:02
If I had to pick companies that don't think about money, they'd

00:51:04
be on the top of them. I don't, I don't the one that

00:51:06
makes the most. I mean that's sort of they

00:51:08
didn't make a lot for a long time, right?

00:51:10
That's in their heads, like in the head.

00:51:12
So there was like, my grandmother grew up in the

00:51:14
depression and she the end to lots of money at you were a

00:51:17
house dress, right? Like all the time.

00:51:18
And so I think they they're not as fixated on stuck or else they

00:51:23
could think about. Let me go to someone else that I

00:51:26
interviewed recently. Monica Lewinsky, think of all

00:51:28
the things she could have done. Done.

00:51:29
And the things she didn't, she could have written a tell-all.

00:51:31
She could have done documentaries about Bill

00:51:33
Clinton. You could talk about Bill

00:51:34
Clinton's penis for years. She never, did she made choices.

00:51:38
She didn't think of the things Apple could do, if they really

00:51:42
wanted to make money, they could have gone to Facebook route.

00:51:44
They could have done, they could have fucked privacy.

00:51:48
Why don't we do we care? We're sucking up all this

00:51:49
information. Yeah but there's a whole this

00:51:51
argument that this privacy campaign is good for apples

00:51:54
bottom. It is good there Apple.

00:51:55
They roll out a new like you sort of joke, Tim Cook and At

00:51:59
their latest like, super Innovative company and then it

00:52:01
rolls out a new phone. Every year.

00:52:02
That's like income come out, like apple, I love Apple

00:52:05
products. He's a good Steward, but not

00:52:08
here, it's not like you could think about what they could

00:52:11
pick. That's all I'm saying.

00:52:12
And Facebook picked all those things and didn't mind it in any

00:52:16
way. Like yes, we're going to be a

00:52:17
rapacious that will cause them a information thief and they are,

00:52:21
they are there rapacious information thieves and so I

00:52:24
that's how I like to think of it.

00:52:25
And then that question, I think he's correct.

00:52:27
I think they If I had to pick a company cares about the quality

00:52:31
of the products them, I think. Evan Spiegel is another person,

00:52:34
even if he's not, now, he's an eye.

00:52:35
On the other side is getting his ass kicked, great products.

00:52:38
That pixie is a wonderful product.

00:52:41
It's just not a good business, that's different.

00:52:43
Those are two different things. And maybe someday these things

00:52:46
will be well. And I always think of, like, you

00:52:48
know, speaking of Apple, they made the Newton that didn't

00:52:51
work, but boy, was it directionally correct.

00:52:53
Right, there was another one General magic, the general magic

00:52:57
device. It was IPhone, did your swear

00:53:00
off asking about any beef between Tim Cook and Johnny

00:53:04
Iver? Well, you just didn't like it

00:53:05
because I know it's not really true.

00:53:07
That's a, that's a press. They love.

00:53:09
Who don't you get along with it Bloomberg era.

00:53:11
Its impact is not a guy who really liked goes off.

00:53:13
Doesn't he just doesn't, it doesn't cut it.

00:53:15
But seriously think about Bloomberg.

00:53:17
You guys are a fuck when you were there.

00:53:18
What a hot fucking mess? Those people hate each other.

00:53:21
What's the fucking difference? I don't care.

00:53:22
Did it matter. I love all the conflicts

00:53:25
interpersonal, conflicts are some of the best news stories

00:53:28
down, I think. Also was what he be there if he

00:53:30
they had a real beef now. Right?

00:53:32
I agree. There's always this sort of

00:53:33
like, oh, they have a beef but yet, they spent all this time.

00:53:36
Here's here's how I look at those stories.

00:53:38
Who the fuck cares, does it matter?

00:53:40
Does it matter? The same thing when we were

00:53:42
writing about Sergei sleeping, with the lady from glass, right?

00:53:46
We had heard a lot there. Google was full of that kind of

00:53:49
stuff, you know, for years. And some of it, we should have

00:53:51
covered by the way, much heavier.

00:53:53
But it was a, it was a different time.

00:53:54
Like there was a okay, Andy Rubin stuff.

00:53:56
Yes, we did. We did cover that we did cover

00:53:58
that But let me just tell you why.

00:53:59
Wait, but we absolutely, we broke that story because he was

00:54:06
sleeping with someone who was running a major Division, and it

00:54:09
had huge repercussions within the company including the

00:54:12
divorce on the stock. So it was a business story with

00:54:15
everyone sort of was like, why are you covering their

00:54:17
personalized? I'm like, are you kidding me?

00:54:18
This is a business story and so that's what I'm saying.

00:54:21
If Johnny Ivan, Tim Cook not getting along affected the

00:54:24
business. You sure as hell.

00:54:25
We never it otherwise, I don't care.

00:54:28
Can I go back? For a second to to Steve Jobs

00:54:30
and we can, maybe end up right here and his death sort of being

00:54:34
a significant moment for Silicon Valley, because this also

00:54:36
relates to the other great moment that you've had in the

00:54:39
code allthingsd, you know, history, which was, you know,

00:54:42
the the Bill Gates Steve Jobs interview in 2007, which is, you

00:54:46
know, I watched it the other day, it's genuinely moving.

00:54:49
It is was wonderful and my take away from it and I think that we

00:54:52
forget when you watch Steve Jobs, the guy is amazingly

00:54:56
charismatic in a way that I you just See among CEOs.

00:55:00
These days I mean like when he talks you listen, he knows how

00:55:02
to tell a story, you know, that, he means this things that he

00:55:05
says, which is not usually the case with a lot.

00:55:08
Even when he commits himself to mean the lies that he gave a

00:55:11
yeah, I'm not saying he's a truthful guy.

00:55:12
Think you're an adult Tom asked his question.

00:55:21
Yeah, actually I've gone back and forth as a tech reporter is

00:55:23
to like the role that Steve Jobs plays because people do deify

00:55:26
him because he is so much more interesting.

00:55:28
I think that a lot of the characters these days, but I

00:55:30
also see him as kind of a destructive force because so

00:55:33
many CEOs want to be like him and just aren't they don't, they

00:55:37
don't want to be like him. They actually want the, the

00:55:39
shitty Parts. Like, look, if you go back now

00:55:41
and look at everyone is so difficult.

00:55:43
I'm like really like, on any given fucking Tuesday, March

00:55:46
Elon Musk has 17 more offensive things in Steve Jobs, said his

00:55:49
whole life, right? And Steve Jobs would face his

00:55:51
critics. Whereas Elon is now he just

00:55:54
teaches Rags them. I can't imagine Steve Jobs

00:55:56
behaving. I don't think he'd like it at

00:55:57
all. He'd be like what the What are

00:55:59
you doing, dude? Like at the stuff around the car

00:56:01
driving. I was joking about.

00:56:02
He like act like a jerk, but who cares me parked funny?

00:56:04
Like, that was always this to remember.

00:56:06
That was a story. Yeah, sure you guys parking in

00:56:07
like, other people's spaces and the handicapped.

00:56:09
Right. Whatever.

00:56:11
It's so minor. It's so like he shouldn't Park

00:56:13
in a handicap gum, but he's dead.

00:56:15
So, here we are. And so, one of the things that I

00:56:18
think has happened is they tried to be cheap versions of him and

00:56:22
shitty versions of him. And he wasn't a shitty version

00:56:26
himself. He was warts and all very Uncle

00:56:29
to be obstreperous. But he was also passionate and

00:56:31
creative and interesting and constantly thinking and he could

00:56:35
be an asshole to these guys are mostly an asshole and can be

00:56:40
creative with the one that disappoints Mimosa Ceylon who I

00:56:43
actually like, I had them last year.

00:56:45
I thought about having them this year, I asked him and then I

00:56:47
thought no, no, maybe not. I didn't want to deal with you

00:56:49
wanting this year. This is a perfect time to him.

00:56:52
He said, no, but nobody challenges this guy.

00:56:54
I mean that would have been valuable you want just goes on

00:56:57
the fucking all in you know. For instance, they just asked

00:56:59
him. Nothing for the following three

00:57:01
minute. I agree.

00:57:02
I agree. But you know what?

00:57:04
I just didn't want to listen to him.

00:57:05
I've heard enough from him at. That's what I felt like.

00:57:08
I could. He's not, he's doing stuff in

00:57:10
plain sight and I don't think he'd do any insights and we

00:57:13
would argue and people might be entertained, but it just would

00:57:16
be. I feel like if you're going to

00:57:17
do it, you need to beg him to take it good night's sleep

00:57:20
beforehand, like half the time, I just was like, you know what,

00:57:23
when you come back to and by the way, I find him to be a genuine

00:57:26
Visionary, I really do when he could When he wakes up and wants

00:57:30
to act like a man, he can call me.

00:57:32
That's how I feel like it. You know what I mean?

00:57:33
Like, and if he wants to make dumb mean jokes, I like them.

00:57:36
I like them. Those are funny.

00:57:38
But some of this is bullshit and I just didn't want to hear it.

00:57:41
I just didn't hear it, he didn't say yes, right, I do, I wrote

00:57:43
him, I asked him. So, I mean politics was such a

00:57:46
huge part of the conference. You had the candidates, but then

00:57:49
there's this, also, the tech political moderates, dealing

00:57:52
with politics. I mean, you had Mark Cuban shirt

00:57:55
of professing to hate. Yep.

00:57:56
Democrats and Republicans. Somewhat equally probable.

00:57:58
Is sort of most negative comments or about Elizabeth

00:58:01
Warren. And then in the the yeah, which

00:58:04
I thought was strange personally but the oh, I know given his

00:58:08
political views anyway. But then on the the Tim Cook

00:58:11
Jony Ive Laurene, Powell jobs interview, you know, Laureen.

00:58:15
And Tim both said that they thought Steve Jobs would have

00:58:19
been upset about the political partisan moment, but I didn't

00:58:23
feel like they spelled out whether they would you be upset

00:58:26
about trumpism cancel culture? Or like what?

00:58:30
I felt like and they didn't really they weren't willing to

00:58:32
go to her and say what they do. You think it was trumpets?

00:58:35
Trump is MM. Oh Lorraine has been very on the

00:58:37
record. She she has but Tim Cook

00:58:39
obviously I mean this in a world already has to deal with the

00:58:44
federal government gives. No you can't just go like

00:58:47
because he's a stock price Optimizer.

00:58:49
I mean that's that's the girl. It's not his personality to he's

00:58:53
not he's very measured. He just is this.

00:58:55
Just the way he is. You may not like it but that's

00:58:57
what he's like. He's Hiding or anything else is

00:58:59
just not, he doesn't want to just want to gauge it would,

00:59:02
he's not very, he's very supportive of gay issues, but he

00:59:05
could be very like I'm a big gay stop hanging with the gays but

00:59:09
he's just not, that's not the gay.

00:59:10
He is so whatever. I don't know what to tell you,

00:59:13
but I think that she was saying, one of the things that was

00:59:16
really striking about Steve Jobs.

00:59:17
And most people don't know. This is, he had a relationship

00:59:19
with Rupert Murdoch and what he was trying to do was change his

00:59:22
mind. He always tried I'll be like,

00:59:24
no, this no that you're being very negative instead of saying

00:59:28
you suck, Suck and you're like the way I liked with Jon

00:59:31
Stewart, did you know, you're ruining our country to Tucker

00:59:34
Carlson many years ago he did a very behind the scenes trying to

00:59:38
convince Rupert Murdoch. What he was doing was dangerous

00:59:42
and that's what, you know, Anand was talking about with

00:59:45
persuasion and some people today, that's not good enough.

00:59:48
We have to all have to be like pitchforks at each other.

00:59:51
That's the only way. The only way is going to be a

00:59:53
Civil War and that's that. I think it would have been an

00:59:55
interesting moment which she was saying is even here.

00:59:58
Who would engage with people. He didn't agree with couldn't

01:00:02
have handled. This moment would bet would have

01:00:04
been opposed to Donald Trump would have been vocal about it.

01:00:07
I think that's what, that's what it, but it's all.

01:00:09
Yeah, I don't know. I feel like a Logitech 73 otic,

01:00:12
what's happening with. I think it would have appalled

01:00:15
hemp and the time I knew him, he was an odd.

01:00:19
You never knew where it was coming from, but one of the

01:00:21
things I'll tell one story. The Last Story I told one story

01:00:25
when he said came out and told me ping sucked the day they

01:00:28
announced. It, which I loved about that.

01:00:30
It's like it does sucks. Doesn't I'm going to get rid of

01:00:32
it and he he came out one time and Walt wasn't there.

01:00:37
He loved world. You know what I mean?

01:00:39
And he when he saw me he's like he's at first I was just

01:00:41
irritating and then he kind of liked me, but I don't really

01:00:43
care. It's a get whatever, he but he

01:00:46
liked Waltz, he just like, well better, that's all they had a

01:00:49
really interesting and unique relationship because they had

01:00:52
been young and fucked up when he met wall.

01:00:54
Like he wasn't Steve Jobs, he was on the ropes when he knew

01:00:57
wall at the Thing with Gates, you know, he started the company

01:01:00
when he Wold and stuff. So they had a very different

01:01:03
relationship and he came out and he was looking for a while, you

01:01:06
can see he's like, I want he wanted to see what Walt thought

01:01:08
of is what he made and he wasn't there, she always liked his

01:01:11
inside. He was always looking for that.

01:01:12
That was 100% true. He said, he always wanted.

01:01:15
He always called people Lorraine talked about that.

01:01:17
He did. He called people constantly.

01:01:20
He wasn't as confident as he seemed, he definitely wanted

01:01:24
people to know what they thought, what they made and this

01:01:26
and that. And so he was looking for Walt

01:01:28
to get An insight into what they had done and they had done a

01:01:31
thing, an iPad that you could use with the keyboard and I

01:01:35
think it was one, something like that, it wasn't a keyboard but

01:01:37
it was in it and stuff. And so he was sort of looking

01:01:40
for him. He was sort of crestfallen that

01:01:42
wasn't there. It was like, oh okay.

01:01:44
Yeah I'll talk to you. You're the closest thing to

01:01:46
Walt. And so he came up to me and he's

01:01:50
like, where's Walt? And I was like, okay, we're

01:01:52
going to be talking about Walt and I said he's in Paris with

01:01:54
his wife on vacation. He hasn't taken a vacation 100

01:01:57
years and she wouldn't let him Take the laptop.

01:02:00
So he wouldn't work because that was, you know, this was pretty a

01:02:03
lot of this stuff and but she took the iPad that has the

01:02:06
keyboard, and he wanted to see if he could live without a key,

01:02:11
you know, that life, you know, with he could do it and I said,

01:02:14
but but and it's working because this is working really well,

01:02:17
actually, he's finding it very useful to type on the iPad if

01:02:21
you've ever seen Waltz very fast on an iPad.

01:02:23
And as I said in, she's pissed, she's pissed right now because

01:02:26
it's working, and he looked at me, He goes, I could turn it

01:02:30
off. I have to say, I like you.

01:02:38
Oh my God, I said you could he goes oh yeah.

01:02:41
One call afterwards but and and malevolent way, but

01:02:57
it was one of the I love that woman.

01:02:59
Yeah, he could really tell a joke and that also comes through

01:03:01
in your interview with him and Bill Gates.

01:03:03
Yeah, he's he's done. Really fun day.

01:03:05
One for many years now. Ha ha ha that God Gates behind

01:03:10
the scenes, it was even better, wait back in the green room

01:03:13
without I'll be writing about in my Memoir, but it was, they had

01:03:16
such a relationship, but when I said what?

01:03:18
Wait, I'm sorry. Did you say he called Bill Gates

01:03:20
gay? I didn't know.

01:03:21
This is what he did. I said, what something about

01:03:22
your relationship that you don't that people don't know.

01:03:25
And he said for a long time now we've been married And it was so

01:03:30
great because he knew that Bill Gates, wasn't anti-gay, but he

01:03:36
was uncomfortable, many straight men are when you make a remarks

01:03:39
at her and so, Bill Gates, you can see if you were sitting us

01:03:41
in. His eyes was like what do I say

01:03:43
if I say something anti-gay, I can't do that and yet I'm not

01:03:45
gay. I want to say I'm okay.

01:03:47
And he was like huh? He got him he performed him and

01:03:51
see jobs. Love doing that to Bill Gates.

01:03:54
Well yeah, did it all the time. My favorite thing?

01:03:56
I think this is from the Walter Isaacson Steve Jobs biography

01:04:00
was saying that the big mistake that Bill Gates made is that he

01:04:02
never took acid in the 60s. Uh-huh.

01:04:04
And that's why I never had a creative bone in his body.

01:04:06
True is interesting. Cause I don't think any of those

01:04:10
people on the stage of like the Walter Isaacson book,

01:04:11
interesting. Lee enough, I think one of the

01:04:14
things they people got wrong, think it's accurate.

01:04:17
Some of it, some of it, it did, here's what I don't think it

01:04:20
got, and I like Walter, he's working on a Ilan book, he's

01:04:22
with the enormity of time. Now, just crazy.

01:04:24
Walters always in the right place the right time or the

01:04:27
wrong time, whatever. So by he's a very talented man.

01:04:31
Yeah, I think what it got wrong and what many stuff gets wrong

01:04:35
and I set it on stage. Is everybody thought?

01:04:38
Steve Jobs was heartless. He was not heartless.

01:04:40
He was, he had too much and it manifested itself in good ways

01:04:45
and really unpleasant ways. And so when he didn't like

01:04:47
something, it came out stronger. Like he just don't say, like I

01:04:52
don't want to say he cared more, but he cared too much in some

01:04:55
cases and I think he he was too passionate and And he was

01:04:59
aggressive in that way. And I think that there's a very

01:05:02
big difference between being heartless and having too much

01:05:05
heart. It can manifest itself, doesn't

01:05:06
make you nice if you have too much hardness.

01:05:08
And so, I think that was again, like I was saying and I'll end

01:05:11
on this. People are complex, these people

01:05:13
are complex and now they have enormous power.

01:05:16
And no matter what happens character outs, right, your

01:05:20
shitty person and then you suddenly get a lot of power.

01:05:24
Hello, Donald Trump. Your he's a shitty pretty be a

01:05:26
shitty person poor, right? He's Is it a shitty parents?

01:05:30
He never was hugged as a child. He was also a bad seat of power

01:05:34
you know you can sort of laughs at own Trump but with power like

01:05:36
you're saying so yeah it because it's so that's what these people

01:05:39
are like and so they. So I spend myself understanding

01:05:42
them as people a lot of time and I don't want to hug them.

01:05:44
I don't want to be their friends at all.

01:05:46
Some of them might be. I've liked I like quite a bit.

01:05:49
I'd like Mark Cuban. I really do.

01:05:50
I like them personally I always find something interesting

01:05:53
talking about but some people are like, Brian chesky.

01:05:56
I really like him. I like him.

01:05:58
I can see, Trying and struggling to be a better precise like Evan

01:06:01
in that way. And by the way, Evan and I

01:06:03
started off being very testy with each other because of a lot

01:06:06
of his frat, bro, thing. But he's involved in the way.

01:06:09
Yeah, exactly. Right.

01:06:11
He's better. Yeah.

01:06:12
If I think it would hurt a lot. Same thing with the same thing

01:06:15
with the with gates in a weird way.

01:06:18
Boy, did we have a real problem with each other?

01:06:21
We could talk to you. I don't want to take you anyway.

01:06:24
Thank you. I see you've got me talking.

01:06:26
See, I'm not a memoir. Yeah, when's that out when I

01:06:31
write it and I finish it, I don't know.

01:06:34
It's going to be funny. I'll tell you that it's going to

01:06:36
be fun. I'm not settling scores I mean,

01:06:38
well, I will and by being funny but, you know, cool.

01:06:42
All right. Tell me about you, Eric.

01:06:43
It's gonna be my time with area. Exactly.

01:06:46
That's volume to reporters. Thank you.

01:06:54
Thanks for coming on. Thanks, Karen anytime.

01:07:09
Goodbye, goodbye. Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye,

01:07:12
goodbye. Goodbye.